Ishar - Binder of Gods and Bondsmiths

[therunner he/him]

Previously, it was known that somehow Ishar had Bondsmith-like abilities even before the Oathpact, with assumption that somehow Odium might have something to do with it (considering he came with humans from Ashyn).

Considering that it was revealed in the recent chapters that Bondsmiths used to bond ancient forces like Wind, Night, Stones directly, and bonding godspren came later, I would suggest that Ishar was the first person to bind forces, and did so back on Ashyn.

Presumably, there were similar forces on Ashyn as well, most likely worshiped (similar to how Singers worshiped wind, stone and spren) and Ishar bound them, hence his moniker Binder of Gods.


Additionally, this now raises a question, why was it considered seditious for Bondsmiths to go over number three? Were only three of the ancient forces allied with humans?

[alder24]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Previously, it was known that somehow Ishar had Bondsmith-like abilities even before the Oathpact, with assumption that somehow Odium might have something to do with it (considering he came with humans from Ashyn).

Considering that it was revealed in the recent chapters that Bondsmiths used to bond ancient forces like Wind, Night, Stones directly, and bonding godspren came later, I would suggest that Ishar was the first person to bind forces, and did so back on Ashyn.

Presumably, there were similar forces on Ashyn as well, most likely worshiped (similar to how Singers worshiped wind, stone and spren) and Ishar bound them, hence his moniker Binder of Gods.


Additionally, this now raises a question, why was it considered seditious for Bondsmiths to go over number three? Were only three of the ancient forces allied with humans?

Were those Bondsmiths bonded with the Wind/Night/Stones, or were they bonded with the fundamental forces of creation directly? Wind, Stones and Night are all spren, but the Sibling said ancient Bondsmiths didn't bond spren, but the forces themselves. Spren are manifestations of fundamental forces, so they act like a middleman between a Surgebinder and the forces. Those Bondsmiths 6,000 years ago might have been bonded directly to fundamental forces, which I think is very similar to what Metallic Arts are. However, the Sibling said "forces left by god," and that's how Hoid described the Wind in ch 3, so in the end I don't know if by forces the Sibling meant ancient Old Magic spren or fundamental forces of creation directly. Anyway I agree, I think Surgebinding on Ashyn worked similarly. WaT ch 21:

Quote

“Some six thousand years ago, when the Stones wanted a legacy in the form of a child of Honor and Cultivation. Back when Bondsmiths bonded not to spren, but to the ancient forces, left by gods.”

WaT ch 3:

Quote

“When this world was created,” Wit said, “long before Honor, Cultivation, or Odium arrived, Adonalsium left something behind on it. Sometimes it’s called the Old Magic. That term is applied to the Nightwatcher, who came—with Cultivation’s efforts—from one of those ancient spren. Listen to the Wind when it speaks, Kaladin. It’s weaker than it once was, but it has seen so very much.”

 

Spoiler

Kaimipono

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

Brandon Sanderson

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

[...]

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

Edited October 14, 2024 by alder24

[Ashbringer he/him]

Nahel bonds specifically are symbiotic in that the person gets power and the power source gets sentience, so it could be they were bound to those early Spren and helped make them what they were.

Humans were using Surges on Ashyn, though, and I don't think spren are there. Though we have no idea how that played out.

 

I do think it's likely that it's specifically "seditious" to have non-traditional Bondsmith spren (at least after the main three were established) and not "impossible". 

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Previously, it was known that somehow Ishar had Bondsmith-like abilities even before the Oathpact, with assumption that somehow Odium might have something to do with it (considering he came with humans from Ashyn).

Considering that it was revealed in the recent chapters that Bondsmiths used to bond ancient forces like Wind, Night, Stones directly, and bonding godspren came later, I would suggest that Ishar was the first person to bind forces, and did so back on Ashyn.

Presumably, there were similar forces on Ashyn as well, most likely worshiped (similar to how Singers worshiped wind, stone and spren) and Ishar bound them, hence his moniker Binder of Gods.


Additionally, this now raises a question, why was it considered seditious for Bondsmiths to go over number three? Were only three of the ancient forces allied with humans?

Only three? I think you need to recount . The stones, the wind, the night, the night watcher the storm father, the tower. That’s six potential bond smiths

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Perhaps this is related to how the Wind's rhythm led Ashynites to Roshar?

9 hours ago, therunner said:

Additionally, this now raises a question, why was it considered seditious for Bondsmiths to go over number three? Were only three of the ancient forces allied with humans?

Maybe it's that, once the Radiants were founded, bonding the original forces rather than Bondsmith spren was seen as a Bad Thing?

[therunner he/him]

10 hours ago, therunner said:

Additionally, this now raises a question, why was it considered seditious for Bondsmiths to go over number three? Were only three of the ancient forces allied with humans?

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Only three? I think you need to recount . The stones, the wind, the night, the night watcher the storm father, the tower. That’s six potential bond smiths

No I don't need to recount.

Epigraph 44 in WoR specifies that there were three Bondsmiths at most, and that increasing this number was considered seditious.

Quote

"But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious."

30 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Perhaps this is related to how the Wind's rhythm led Ashynites to Roshar?

Hmm, that is a good point, could be.

30 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Maybe it's that, once the Radiants were founded, bonding the original forces rather than Bondsmith spren was seen as a Bad Thing?

Possibly, or it could be part of the restrictions created by Ishar when forming Knight Radiants.

We know that KR were later development, that happened at least few Desolations in, and the first few Desolations had long breaks between (there were possibly not more than 15 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10816 ). Further, six thousands years ago is roughly around the time of founding of KR per the official interactive map (https://roshar.17thshard.com/#/en-US).

So it could be few proto-Bondsmiths between certain Desolations bonded some of these ancient forces, and then during Desolation circa 6000 years ago Ishar and Honor reformed these into Bondsmith spren and restricted the bonding.

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

15 hours ago, therunner said:

No I don't need to recount.

Epigraph 44 in WoR specifies that there were three Bondsmiths at most, and that increasing this number was considered seditious.

Hmm, that is a good point, could be.

Possibly, or it could be part of the restrictions created by Ishar when forming Knight Radiants.

We know that KR were later development, that happened at least few Desolations in, and the first few Desolations had long breaks between (there were possibly not more than 15 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10816 ). Further, six thousands years ago is roughly around the time of founding of KR per the official interactive map (https://roshar.17thshard.com/#/en-US).

So it could be few proto-Bondsmiths between certain Desolations bonded some of these ancient forces, and then during Desolation circa 6000 years ago Ishar and Honor reformed these into Bondsmith spren and restricted the bonding.

Spren are formed around people's perception of them, so maybe as time went on and people's perception of 'god spren' changed, those spren themselves also wanted to be the 'ones in charge'? People viewed them as the main Spren, so they in turned viewed themselves as such? And then they discouraged the bonding of old forces.