Book Club - To The Death!

[+Child of Hodor]

TL;DR: Dalinar and Taravangian debate The Way of Kings to the death as the contest of "champions". 

My guess as to what the contest of champions will be is that there will be no champions. There will be Taravangian and Dalinar appointing themselves and they won't physically fight. They'll debate the stories in the Way of Kings. Like how they debated in OB except instead of sitting there they will metaphysically create the scenarios and act them out like the Visions or like how Rayse took the Diagram and then recreated the room it was written on originally. 

My reasoning for no Champions is Dalinar has insisted he do it himself and we see on the WaT cover that Dalinar is alone atop Uirithiru with his special book, the Way of Kings, in one arm looking at the Everstorm approaching. 

We don't see Odium's champion and they wouldn't give it away on the cover anyways, but the reason I think there will be no champion is Taravangian's ego. It was never enough for the world to be saved; HE must be the one to save them all. He has an inferiority complex from the note about his potentially diminished capacity when he was a baby. He doesn't want to be worshipped like Rayse, but he wants to rub it in everyone's face that they were wrong about him. 

Why debate the Way of Kings? The book is there on the cover, they've debated it in the past with Taravangian disagreeing with the actions of Nohadan. Taravangian may want to prove Dalinar wrong. Psychologically break him and get him to concede. 

Why act it out via visions or similar recreations? It's more interesting than them standing there talking. This could also fulfill the death rattle about slitting a child's throat to save the world. Taravangian doesn't have to persuade a baby to fight for him he can just create a vision for Dalinar to experience.  It could also be Taravangian holding the knife in a vision, and he has a hard time doing it because of his compassionate side. 

If I were Dalinar I'd just beat the old man to death with the book, but in RoW Dalinar has expressed the desire to once again sit by a fire and debate with Taravangian.

The concentration required for and frustration from the debate eventually causes Taravangian to slip and lose control of Odium which will either result in him dying or the sapient, but insanely angry shard taking over and doing something that violates the agreement. Like smiting Dalinar who is his own champion which violates the agreemeent that the Shard would not interfere with the other's Champion or it turns out Dalinar's mom or a grandparent was from Kharbranth which violates Odium's deal with Taravangian because Dalinar is within 2 generations of someone born in Kharbranth. 

Edited October 9, 2024 by Child of Hodor

[Slayd_07]

Oh this is a PHENOMENAL theory. Especially since we're getting more epigraphs from the Way of Kings! I'm basically convinced - Taravangian and Dalinar presenting each other with philosophical scenarios via vision and trying to prove themselves right makes perfect sense. And it's the exact kind of tricky subversion Sanderson would go for. A test of Dalinar's convictions and growth would be really interesting, and doing it via vision would allow so many fun scenarios. Maybe Tarvangian even tries to trick Dalinar, like showing him a vision that makes it seem like Adolin's become his champion or something. This also lines up well with what Hoid's worried about - this isn't a move Rayse would ever have tried, and I don't think Dalinar will be anticipating it. Great work coming up with this!

[+mdross81 he/him]

Interesting theory @Child of Hodor

The scenario you outline reminds me of that one episode of The Good Place where they literally game out the Trolley problem.

[The Stick]

I really like this theory. 

To me, the entire Stormlight Archive is about broken people becoming better, and reaching towards higher ideals. I believe this is exemplified in Dalinar more than any other character. And it is obvious that The Way Of Kings was really what catalyzed Dalinar's growth into a better man.

On the other hand, Taravangian had been precisely constructed to be a direct and polar opposite to Dalinar philosophically, with his brutal style of utilitarianism. I think that a final contest testing the man Dalinar had become would be very fitting.

Thirdly, the Way of Kings had always been a central point throughout the storyline. After all, the entire series opened with the prologue with Gavilar telling Dalinar to find the most important words a man can say from WoK. In this, I think when Dalinar is on the Tower with Taravangian, he will find the words, intrinsically know them, and have access to Honor's power to Ascend. At this point, I think an important decision would be if Dalinar would forgive his past self fully, and if he would be willing to Ascend. Irregardless of whether this happens, I am completely and utterly sure he will Bondsmith back Gavilar and Nohadon for one final conversation to end the arc and help him find the words and make his choice.

Edited October 9, 2024 by The Stick

[Ailvara]

To be honest, I am really at a loss to how this contest will look. Because this version makes a lot of sense. It's a bit too similar to another ending Brandon wrote  but it's heavily implied that it's going to be some sort of a philosophical contest, and it makes more sense than a physical fight.

That said, why then Odium prepared Dalinar to be his Champion, and did it the way he did? Of all people, he picked one strongest physically, and not terribly promising intellectually at the time, and then he focused on making him go berserk and nearly losing his mind. If he was prepping for a debate, not the wisest choice.

Another thing is: if the contest is to the death, Taravangian would have to be 10000% sure that he's going to win to risk his life.

Edited October 9, 2024 by Ailvara

[CtrlAltDepressed]

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

That said, why then Odium prepared Dalinar to be his Champion, and did it the way he did? Of all people, he picked one strongest physically, and not terribly promising intellectually at the time, and then he focused on making him go berserk and nearly losing his mind. If he was prepping for a debate, not the wisest choice.

This was Rayse's choice. Taravangian would be smart to fight Dalinar in a way he was not prepped for. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

I like this theory a lot!

9 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

or it turns out Dalinar's mom or a grandparent was from Kharbranth which violates Odium's deal with Taravangian because Dalinar is within 2 generations of someone born in Kharbranth. 

I think Odium's final Oath to Taravangian didn't include the 2 generations - only people who live there, who were born there, or their spouses. I think there's a WoB that that doesn't include some individuals within 2 generations of Taravangian himself. If Evi was somehow born in Kharbranth, maybe... but that seems unlikely.

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

That said, why then Odium prepared Dalinar to be his Champion, and did it the way he did? Of all people, he picked one strongest physically, and not terribly promising intellectually at the time, and then he focused on making him go berserk and nearly losing his mind. If he was prepping for a debate, not the wisest choice.

Another thing is: if the contest is to the death, Taravangian would have to be 10000% sure that he's going to win to risk his life.

I think Rayse was planning to corrupt Dalinar after he had accepted the Contest, but before he'd actually written out the terms - with Dalinar in his pocket, he could essentially make the terms say whatever he wanted. I think the Contests can take a variety of forms, but Odium's RoW contract notably didn't establish a form.

Taravangain may also make the calculation that if he died, Dalinar would be then forced to become Odium. 

 

 

[Wanguu He/Him]

2 hours ago, The Stick said:

After all, the entire series opened with the prologue with Gavilar telling Dalinar to find the most important words a man can say from WoK. In this, I think when Dalinar is on the Tower with Taravangian, he will find the words, intrinsically know them, and have access to Honor's power to Ascen

Quote

“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. Make me a Herald. I need it.”

The Stormfather turned a shimmering head in his direction. That was almost them.

“What, those?” Gavilar said. “A demand?”

So close. And so far.

Maybe these 'give it to me' words are to take up the shard, not to become a radiant/herald?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

Perhaps Dalinar and Taravangian would have a Vision about the '3 Guilty Men, 1 Innocent Man' question that they debated about before.

Taravangian called Nohadon a coward for not killing all 4 men, and we know from the Stormfather that the Visions can't just be about anything, there needs to be a Connection, so I think we'll have them revisit this question. Maybe it'll be what makes Dalinar realize that Taravangian is Odium.

[MarcieIsForager She/They]

I do actually hope we get into how Oaths bind shards the way they do. I assume there has to be a way shards fight other than just launching full power assaults.
This could be really cool and kinda reminds me of "The oldest game" from Sandman

[Ailvara]

21 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

This was Rayse's choice. Taravangian would be smart to fight Dalinar in a way he was not prepped for. 

So that's another question about what the duel is going to be about. I'd imagine it must be at least to some extent defined by something bigger, Cosmere, the nature of the Shards or the Oaths, whatever. Because if the weapon can be chosen, then why wouldn't anyone on the protagonists' side even think to negotiate this part for the contract? And if Odium can just choose whatever mode of the challenge he can, from a huge range of physical to philosophical, and won't even let Dalinar know until the Champions meet, what's even the point? He can decide it's gonna be a contest of crocheting and voila, Dalinar's toast.

No, I don't see how Odium could get to freely choose how he fights Dalinar and this all still makes sense. And if he doesn't, the change of the vessel shouldn't dramatically change what the fight is going to be about. 

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

I kind of love this idea, it would be cool follow through from Dalinar and Taravangian's fireside chat. It does make me think of some things from 

Spoiler

Wheel of Time

which is a notable influence for Brandon going way back.