Divided One theory

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

The recent Interlude released has shed some light on what has been going on with Taravangian after he Ascended.

He's not been having the best time, it seems.

But something that caught my eye was how he was 'Divided', between logic and passion, similar to how he was before, except instead of having one or the other with no control he now has both, but he still sees them as separate. Not only that but he's been trying to keep his own mind separate from Odium.

With all this in mind I can't help but think about two very interesting WOBs about Shards. Specifically these two:

Spoiler

Doombrigade (paraphrased)

If an individual has a mental sickness, such as multiple personalities, can that affect a Shard's intent if picked up by him or her?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that is possible.

Spoiler

Isaac Betzold

Could a Shard be split into smaller Intents, like if Honor were alive and then was split into maybe Integrity and Bravery?

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible. Very plausible. You ask some weird things sometimes, this one is not that weird, this is very plausible.

I think, for TOdium to get out of the bindings, he needs to not be Odium.

I think that in order to continue his plan to save the Cosmere, Odium will eventually be split into two Shards. One for Logic and one for Passion. So then he would not be the being known as 'Odium' and the pacts that bound Rayse might not continue to work on him.

Though that's probably a long shot.

[BinarySecond]

I like this theory.

Taravangian shows he does not care for the Vessels and their proclivity for self preservation and hoarding of power above all else.

 

I believe Odium will be self-splintered but wasn't aware of the possibility of an Intent to be split down into more components.

Could each Shard be improved by taking on a fraction of Passion? Give the Vessels some more ability to act as they wish and not just as they're bound?

Edited September 17, 2024 by BinarySecond

[Kardenal_13 he/him]

I like the idea, but my problem with this is that I don't see what you could split off of Odium (I'm thinking all encompassing hate as the intent here) that would be purely logical.

I read Taravangian shifting to his logic side as him not taking control exactly, but almost ignoring the intent of the shard and allowing him to function more than someone else who hadn't had his experience with different mind states would be able to. 

 

Also, would he still be Taravangian? As in would he need to find someone else to hold the "new" shard, would he create an avatar and give half of his power to that avatar? How would he split the power in two, and keep the power for himself since I don't see Taravangian giving it up, without duplicating himself (which as far as I know can't be done)? I don't think he can't hold both of them at the same time or they would just reform back into Odium.

[Master Silver]

4 minutes ago, Matt Snow said:

I like the idea, but my problem with this is that I don't see what you could split off of Odium (I'm thinking all encompassing hate as the intent here) that would be purely logical.

I read Taravangian shifting to his logic side as him not taking control exactly, but almost ignoring the intent of the shard and allowing him to function more than someone else who hadn't had his experience with different mind states would be able to. 

 

Also, would he still be Taravangian? As in would he need to find someone else to hold the "new" shard, would he create an avatar and give half of his power to that avatar? How would he split the power in two, and keep the power for himself since I don't see Taravangian giving it up, without duplicating himself (which as far as I know can't be done)? I don't think he can't hold both of them at the same time or they would just reform back into Odium.

That is interesting. When you consider splitting power. Brandon has said that the Shards are roughly equal in power and have essentially infinite investiture. They are all Almighties. But we also know that Harmony is technically stronger because he holds two shards but this also limits him in other ways. It is interesting to think about whether more power limits the shards or if it was done in a different way if it would grant freedom. For instance, what if someone picked up both Honor and Autonomy? We know Honor + Odium = War, but a war on hunger or poverty would not be bad. Just some random thoughts. 

[Wanguu He/Him]

Virtuosity is known to have self-splintered, maybe they split themselves into smaller shards of different intents?

[Ashbringer he/him]

Taravangian's in a very similar state to the ascendant Vin, at this point - he's bound by prior agreements, but he's much less bound by Intent, which gives him the chance to do all sorts of interesting things. How long that lasts could depend on several things.

But he seems to be committing to doing some Odious things.

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

21 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

The recent Interlude released has shed some light on what has been going on with Taravangian after he Ascended.

He's not been having the best time, it seems.

But something that caught my eye was how he was 'Divided', between logic and passion, similar to how he was before, except instead of having one or the other with no control he now has both, but he still sees them as separate. Not only that but he's been trying to keep his own mind separate from Odium.

With all this in mind I can't help but think about two very interesting WOBs about Shards. Specifically these two:

  Reveal hidden contents

Doombrigade (paraphrased)

If an individual has a mental sickness, such as multiple personalities, can that affect a Shard's intent if picked up by him or her?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that is possible.

  Reveal hidden contents

Isaac Betzold

Could a Shard be split into smaller Intents, like if Honor were alive and then was split into maybe Integrity and Bravery?

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible. Very plausible. You ask some weird things sometimes, this one is not that weird, this is very plausible.

I think, for TOdium to get out of the bindings, he needs to not be Odium.

I think that in order to continue his plan to save the Cosmere, Odium will eventually be split into two Shards. One for Logic and one for Passion. So then he would not be the being known as 'Odium' and the pacts that bound Rayse might not continue to work on him.

Though that's probably a long shot.

This made me think of the Rhythms. specifically from Coopermind:
Rhythm of Odium – violent, chaotic rhythm that becomes more logical over time ~ Rhythm of War chapter 76

[Confused]

I wrote about this subject in the middle of a post on the Interludes thread. I’m sure nobody noticed, so I’ll repeat the gist of that message here. I’ve long argued Odium is the Shard of Broken Connections. I view Interlude 2 as more evidence.

Odium is the Broken One, the Divided One, because of the COMPLETE SEPARATION OF HIS RIGHT BRAIN FROM HIS LEFT: “Odium was a person divided. One side thinking, the other feeling.” I believe this is a feature of the Shard itself, not a result of Cultivation’s boon/curse. This “broken Connection” between the two brain hemispheres causes the problem.

While not fully true, the left side generally associates with logical, analytical, and intellectual traits, and the right side generally associates with emotional and creative traits. Odium cannot access both at the same time. Instead, he must switch back and forth. He controls this switch; it’s not arbitrary, like the boon/curse was: “The logical side of him asserted control, shoving down the side that simply wanted to rage.”

I believe Odium’s broken Connection causes him trouble with self-regulation. Logic and passion can never temper one another at the same time. Like a sailing boat, Odium must tack between these conflicting winds and never point straight toward his goal. This requires a strong and steady hand on the rudder.

Rayse couldn’t navigate this boat. Hoid thinks Rayse was a fool, presumably the kind who can’t control his emotions. Rayse's left brain couldn’t hold his right brain in check:

Quote

[T]he old Odium was becoming too violent, too willing to destroy everything as the emotions raged freely.

Under Rayse, Odium was “Broken,” uncontrolled. Taravangian is not such a fool as Rayse. I agree with @CognitiveShadow that Cultivation’s boon/curse prepared Taravangian to hold the Odium Shard. 

As some note, there is a strong element of Vessel-Shard conflict here. The Shard has not fully imposed its compulsions on the Vessel; Taravangian remains Taravangian. But I think the division between the brain hemispheres is built into the Shard and causes logic and passion’s mutual exclusivity.

And (sigh) I continue to believe Odium manipulates emotions by breaking/restoring both the Connections that directly affect emotions (right side of brain) and the Connections that constitute one’s culturally imposed conscience (left side of brain). To repeat my earlier post, turning off the conscience while turning on rage can be pretty effective in war. An army of berserkers...

Edited September 18, 2024 by Confused

[BinarySecond]

6 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

violent, chaotic rhythm that becomes more logical over time

Odium is a toddler then.

 

Joking aside I wonder if he's going to be able to stack his mental states in sequence. Have the emotional "phase" be the primary interface with the power of Odium and the logic side sit behind that actually making decisions?

[Aon Tia she/her]

On 9/17/2024 at 8:58 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

think, for TOdium to get out of the bindings, he needs to not be Odium.

I agree that the only real solution is for the shard to not be Odium.

As you suggested, splintering the shard is one possibility, but whichever way you splinter it, there will be some part of the shard that will get the negative emotions in its Intent, and that will continue to pose the same problem. Shard splinters are still infinitely powerful entities and therefore equally dangerous. 

I think that it will be far better solution to combine odium with others shards, this would lesson the impact of the odium side on the vessel and will help dilute its impact and give the "divine hatred" some context. The more shards combined to it, the better. 

 

 

[alder24]

On 9/17/2024 at 5:28 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

I think, for TOdium to get out of the bindings, he needs to not be Odium.

I think that in order to continue his plan to save the Cosmere, Odium will eventually be split into two Shards. One for Logic and one for Passion. So then he would not be the being known as 'Odium' and the pacts that bound Rayse might not continue to work on him.

While this might differently for splitting a Shard into smaller pieces, when merging two into one, previous deals are still in effect, or their consequences still apply to new merged Shard and their Vessel:

Spoiler

Kyrroti

Shards can't break oaths, and new Vessels have to follow previous Shards' deals. Ruin and Preservation made a deal. Does Harmony have to follow that deal?

Brandon Sanderson

The Ruin and Preservation deal is considered fulfilled. There's a lot of things going on in here. The way that oaths work, perception is still important. And Shards can break deals, it gives others a way to get at them. Odium could break his deal, but if he did, that's very dangerous to those who would seek to have advantage against him. I think fulfilled is the wrong term, the deal between Ruin and Preservation is broken, and no longer in force because it was broken. This does leave Ruin with more advantage in this situation, but they're the same individual, so I'm sure that's just fine! No problems at all! Everybody's doing just great.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

I think the same would apply for Odium splitting into two smaller ones - both of the new Shards would be still bound by the same deals and rules that held Odium before. 

[TheOtherDave]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

While this might differently for splitting a Shard into smaller pieces, when merging two into one, previous deals are still in effect, or their consequences still apply to new merged Shard and their Vessel:

  Hide contents

Kyrroti

Shards can't break oaths, and new Vessels have to follow previous Shards' deals. Ruin and Preservation made a deal. Does Harmony have to follow that deal?

Brandon Sanderson

The Ruin and Preservation deal is considered fulfilled. There's a lot of things going on in here. The way that oaths work, perception is still important. And Shards can break deals, it gives others a way to get at them. Odium could break his deal, but if he did, that's very dangerous to those who would seek to have advantage against him. I think fulfilled is the wrong term, the deal between Ruin and Preservation is broken, and no longer in force because it was broken. This does leave Ruin with more advantage in this situation, but they're the same individual, so I'm sure that's just fine! No problems at all! Everybody's doing just great.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

I think the same would apply for Odium splitting into two smaller ones - both of the new Shards would be still bound by the same deals and rules that held Odium before. 

Yeah, but if the Taravangian's clever about how he splits Odium, the portion he's left with might have an Intent more compatible with his goals. He wouldn't be doing it to get out of the deal, he'd be doing it so that he didn't have to deal with Odium's Intent clouding his judgment. At least that's what I was thinking.

[Ashbringer he/him]

Tossing a WoB into the mix: 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324/#e9363

Specifically the parts about “Charged Terms” and “primal forces attached to bits of personality”. Shards like Ruin seem fairly in tune with those two mixing - Ruin is the personality of wanting to destroy and break things down, and its powers do that. 

Other Shards are weirder. (Even Preservation, who’s magic system is both non-preserving and very active/combative for a Shard that seems to want perfect stasis.)

Odium could very well be one where the “primal force” and “personality” don’t mix - the power has the abilities to have powerful futuresight (or break Connections), but the Intent is just based on fury and hate.

I might honestly do a writeup on how the Shards seem to fail at or clash with their Intents in odd ways.

[Aleph-Naught he/him]

On 9/17/2024 at 7:43 PM, Confused said:

I wrote about this subject in the middle of a post on the Interludes thread. I’m sure nobody noticed, so I’ll repeat the gist of that message here. I’ve long argued Odium is the Shard of Broken Connections. I view Interlude 2 as more evidence.

Odium is the Broken One, the Divided One, because of the COMPLETE SEPARATION OF HIS RIGHT BRAIN FROM HIS LEFT: “Odium was a person divided. One side thinking, the other feeling.” I believe this is a feature of the Shard itself, not a result of Cultivation’s boon/curse. This “broken Connection” between the two brain hemispheres causes the problem.

While not fully true, the left side generally associates with logical, analytical, and intellectual traits, and the right side generally associates with emotional and creative traits...

Left-brain/right-brain distinctions like you describe above haven't been favored by neuroscience for some time, I don't think Brandon would go down that route; or, at least, I'd be disappointed if he did--might as well have the Cosmere equivalent of phrenology.

Hypothesizing about Odium being a different shard from what he has been named seems like a fool's errand. I was originally excited about the prospect of the name "Odium" being some kind of Cosmere equivalent of a propaganda campaign to paint him as an enemy of "the good", as Rayse proclaimed he was the shard of Passion, but I'm pretty sure Brandon has made is clear that Odium is.. Odium--there's no hidden meaning, Rayse was deluding himself. Though I would be happy to be proven wrong about this, because while the name, "Odium", is neat, I have always had a problem with it because it seems too narrow in comparison to the intents of the other shards.