Do you all think bam is evil?

[Acolyte of Radiance]

May be a dumb question,seeing she acted as odium in the false desolation by granting forms,but I remember a herald talking about her as a mistake.

[RefusesToElaborate]

Was what she was doing deliberate?

If yes, was she doing it out of loyalty to Odium orbwanting to see an end to the desolations?

If ahe juat wanted to end the cycle of desolation, why evil?

[RedBlue]

I don’t think BAM will turn out to be evil, because that would be too simple.

Aside from inherent evil being not really a thing in the cosmere, it’s not as though taking the Singers’ side in the war was an evil thing to do.

I don’t expect her to be helpful to the human main characters — she will probably be hostile, at least to begin with — but I expect she will have her own reasons for doing the things she does, and those reasons will be good and make sense from a certain point of view.

[alder24]

22 minutes ago, Acolyte of Radiance said:

May be a dumb question,seeing she acted as odium in the false desolation by granting forms,but I remember a herald talking about her as a mistake.

I believe she was loyal to Odium and will be hostile to humanity. The question is will she be loyal to the new Odium, who was a human so recently? Probably yes.

However, I don't think that's all. The way the Stormfather was talking about her in the prologue, and how Ulim described her as "too little god" sounds like her giving forms of power to every Singer significantly stretched her soul and overextended her capabilities. I wouldn't be surprised if this, combined with spending the last 2,500 years in a cramped gemstone, caused her to become insane. I don't think releasing her will be a good thing - at least for humans, spren might get better.

WoT prologue:

Quote

She created your parshmen by accident, he said. Long ago, just before the Recreance, Mishram tried to rise up and replace Odium, giving the Voidbringers powers.

“Curious,” Gavilar said. “And then?”

And then… she fell. She was too small a being to uphold an entire people. It all came crashing down, and so some brave Radiants trapped Mishram in a gemstone to prevent her from destroying all of Roshar. A side effect created the parshmen.

RoW ch 73:

Quote

In the past, Odium granted forms of power, but Ba-Ado-Mishram thought she could do it. Ended up handing out forms of power as easily as Fused give each other titles, Connected herself to the entire singer species. Became a little god. Too little.

 

[teknopathetic he/him]

I think Bam was the original 10th Herald that Taln replaced at the last second making the whole relationships very complex. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

Easiest explanation is that BAM is going to be like Sja-Anat. Not "good", but also not strictly aligned with Odium. But she was raising an army of Void-formed singers, so, she could have a lot of motives.

[Sophrosyne He/any]

15 hours ago, Acolyte of Radiance said:

May be a dumb question,seeing she acted as odium in the false desolation by granting forms,but I remember a herald talking about her as a mistake.

No such thing as dumb questions! Personally, I don't think evil is a thing in the cosmere, I do think she's going to be antagonistic to our POV characters, I do think many in world would call her evil, but I won't.

10 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I think Bam was the original 10th Herald that Taln replaced at the last second making the whole relationships very complex. 

Umm That is a WILD theory. Here's hoping that it's right. but wouldn't her being in the gem at all disprove it immediately?

[teknopathetic he/him]

18 hours ago, Sophrosyne said:

No such thing as dumb questions! Personally, I don't think evil is a thing in the cosmere, I do think she's going to be antagonistic to our POV characters, I do think many in world would call her evil, but I won't.

Umm That is a WILD theory. Here's hoping that it's right. but wouldn't her being in the gem at all disprove it immediately?

We don't really know what Bam is. She does seem to be 100% sentient, was a princess of Odium's side, a war general, has Kelek's respect, and seems to have genuinely wanted to help the Singers. 

We know that Odium wants to make Dalinar into a Fused, so a Fused human is entirely possible. Or perhaps a Singer was originally hoping to join the Oathpact but was turned away for some reason. Both could be possible. Either way, there 100% was someone who got replaced by Taln and that person is likely going to be at least mentioned in an important way. Assuming this 11th Herald plot point is going to bounce back in relevance somehow, Mishram seems like a very good candidate for the 11th herald. I don't believe Hoid makes sense for this role and there isn't any other immortal floating around from 4000 years ago that we have as a potential candidate. Odium Unmaking the original 10th Herald would just be a badass plot point. 
----
Also, if you have read Dragonsteel Prime, there is a hint of something similar that I suspect was lifted. Not the same at all. But similar. Cant be more specific without spoilers. 

Spoilers DragonSteel Prime

Spoiler

The Lord of the War is a Sho Del general and holy figure who has been fighting for centuries or longer. The Sho Del assume him to be Fain in origin as well but The Lord is actually a humanoid in disguise. He has been using armour+ to hide his form from everyone. 

In the Shattered Plains portion of the book, the Kal-like figure manages to knock the armour off of the Lord of The War and unmasks this secret. The Lord of the War is very likely actually one of the main pantheon Gods who has been helping his Sho Del "children", but the "not Sho Del" thing holds as a plot point that is focused on. 

But the part that tickles my brain is the holy general of the Sho Del not actually being Sho Del in origin. I think this will be lifted into making BAM's heritage being quite surprising.  If we learn that the general of the Singers was not a Singer, a similar punch will be recycled into Stormlight. 

==========

 

 

Edited August 8, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Treach]

21 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

We don't really know what Bam is. She does seem to be 100% sentient, was a princess of Odium's side, a war general, has Kelek's respect, and seems to have genuinely wanted to help the Singers. 

We know that Odium wants to make Dalinar into a Fused, so a Fused human is entirely possible. Or perhaps a Singer was originally hoping to join the Oathpact but was turned away for some reason. Both could be possible. Either way, there 100% was someone who got replaced by Taln and that person is likely going to be at least mentioned in an important way. Assuming this 11th Herald plot point is going to bounce back in relevance somehow, Mishram seems like a very good candidate for the 11th herald. I don't believe Hoid makes sense for this role and there isn't any other immortal floating around from 4000 years ago that we have as a potential candidate. Odium Unmaking the original 10th Herald would just be a badass plot point. 
----
Also, if you have read Dragonsteel Prime, there is a hint of something similar that I suspect was lifted. Not the same at all. But similar. Cant be more specific without spoilers. 

Spoilers DragonSteel Prime

  Hide contents

The Lord of the War is a Sho Del general and holy figure who has been fighting for centuries or longer. The Sho Del assume him to be Fain in origin as well but The Lord is actually a humanoid in disguise. He has been using armour+ to hide his form from everyone. 

In the Shattered Plains portion of the book, the Kal-like figure manages to knock the armour off of the Lord of The War and unmasks this secret. The Lord of the War is very likely actually one of the main pantheon Gods who has been helping his Sho Del "children", but the "not Sho Del" thing holds as a plot point that is focused on. 

But the part that tickles my brain is the holy general of the Sho Del not actually being Sho Del in origin. I think this will be lifted into making BAM's heritage being quite surprising.  If we learn that the general of the Singers was not a Singer, a similar punch will be recycled into Stormlight. 

==========

 

 

I think another scenario is that the Heralds were originally only 9, they came over from Ashyn and Odium was their god. I suspect the 10th was added when the swap happened and they took up the Oathpact. Obviously I'm speculating. 

 

As for the DSP Spoiler...

Spoiler

The Lord of the War is Ethain.

 

[Cocoa he/him]

On 8/7/2024 at 9:51 PM, Sophrosyne said:

Personally, I don't think evil is a thing in the cosmere

The residents of Threnody would beg to differ.

I mean, Theopolis is pretty evil, imo. Why, what did you think i was talking about?

 

Jokes aside, I don't think she's going to be especially happy with humans when she gets out, though trying to turn herself into a mini-god makes me wonder if she's too ambitious to just bend the knee to Odium as well. We could be looking at a new faction entering the fray (especially if her long absence means she isn't covered by the ceasefire between Dalinar and Odium after the contest of champions). The only was I can really picture her not being antagonistic towards the Radiants is if she was already in the process of dying due to overdoing it with the Connection shenanigans during the False Desolation, in which case imprisoning her—unwelcome as it might have been—ultimately saved her life.

Edited August 14, 2024 by Cocoa

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

I mean, BAM started her own Desolation. The kind of event that leads to mass casualties on both sides. 

That doesn't really mark her as 'good'. 

Heck, in the preview chapters, Kelek was worried that if she was free then she'd just join up with Odium and make things worse.

 

Maybe she'll disagree with the change in management, but I highly doubt that BAM would be anything less than hostile towards the Radiants, they imprisoned her after all and as the 'Voidbringer Princess' who led armies she's certainly caused many human deaths. Maybe BAM will join up with the Listeners but even that's a stretch, their whole culture was started by the abandonment of the Forms of Power after all, being free and not being bossed around by hateful gods.

 

Though if my time reading the Cosmere has taught me anything, it's that there's always another secret. She's been described as 'the one who could rival Him', 'Him' being Odium. So maybe after TOdium pulls the rug out from our heroes, they'll reveal Taravangian and BAM along with disgruntled Fused who don't like being bossed around by a human will start some kind of Voidbringer civil war, which will buy our heroes some valuable time to pick themselves up.

[duladen he/him]

With the release of chapters 3 and 4 and the revelation that there were pre-Shattering Old Magic Gods, notably the Wind and the Nightwatcher, I think it's likely that some or all of Unmade were Old Magic Gods. And I definitely think Mishram was an Old Magic God.

As such, I do not think she was evil. She had previously been connected to the Singers - much like Ur, the voice that speaks to Venli in RoW. A couple millennia after Aharietiam with no real Desolations, she probably saw an opportunity to reconnect with the Singers. Then ensuing fighting and her imprisonment being an unforeseen consequence. My guess is that she has a loyalty to Singers, but not to the Fused and their war alongside Odium.