Who the quotes from the Knights of Wind and Truth belong to?

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Well, we know for sure that the Wind has talked to Kaladin, so he's an obvious source. I think the other source being Szeth is interesting. Could be that the Wind talks to him when they are in Shinovar? I'm wondering who else it might be besides Kaladin, mostly because we haven't really seen anything but the voices of the damned talking to Szeth. He's got a lot of weirdness going on....

Those sources are regarding "the events surrounding the cleansing of Shinovar," it's not about who the Wind was talking to. Szeth is therefore the most obvious source as he will do the cleansing. Kaladin's chances of survival just skyrocketed, he's just became an heir to Dalinar, the king of Urithiru. I thus think he's quite likely the second witness of the cleansing. 

And that sounds very grim - if Kaladin and Szeth are the ONLY two sources this writer has, then it seems casualties of Szeth's crusade will be massive. Kaladin will have a very hard time living by his Oaths. 

[The Stick]

Potentially, assuming mass casualties during the crusade, Syl could count as another witness, depending on whether Kaladin, Szeth, or Syl are 2 who live. In addition, the reference to the Wind and Heralds vanishing makes no sense to me. The second arc is said to be much more herald focused. Another potential thing is that the heralds all did witness the cleansing, because the author makes it sound like there are two witnesses because the Heralds and Wind are gone, and therefore in no place to give witness

[+Bzhydack he/him]

40 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Well, we know for sure that the Wind has talked to Kaladin, so he's an obvious source. I think the other source being Szeth is interesting. Could be that the Wind talks to him when they are in Shinovar? I'm wondering who else it might be besides Kaladin, mostly because we haven't really seen anything but the voices of the damned talking to Szeth. He's got a lot of weirdness going on....

Szeth plus Kaladin are not 2 witnesses, but 4. Kaladin, Syl, Szeth and his Highspren. We can also count Nightblood, but he (it?) is unrelaiable, because he (it?) does not feel time properly.

[coolsnow7]

Historian and philosopher candidates as of Chapters 5 & 6:

 

- Sigzil

- Jasnah

- Shallan

Notably not Kaladin - unless his personality takes some really odd turns, I don’t see Kaladin switching careers to academic scholarship. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Jasnah seems the obvious choice.

Interesting that she heard the wind as a child.  I guess that explains her previously referenced "madness".

Oooooh. Jasnah hearing wind voices made her insane? Everyone thought she was schizophrenic? 

[+robardin he/him]

15 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Oooooh. Jasnah hearing wind voices made her insane? Everyone thought she was schizophrenic? 

That was my thought too. I'm in Camp Jasnah after six chapters!

Also, aside from who's writing the in-world KoWaT, I think what happens in Shinovar that causes the Heralds and the Wind (capital W) of Roshar to "disappear", that is related to "cleansing Shinovar", is something that happens with only Kal and Szeth around, on top of Heralds and the Wind. Not that there was a mass killing of the population of the land.

Like, Szeth decides that "cleansing" Shinovar of its false leaders equates to removing the source of error, which would be some combination of mad Herald(s) / Unmade / etc., and whatever slurps / zaps / blows those all away counts as his Crusade.

Edited August 19, 2024 by robardin

[listerfeend]

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Szeth plus Kaladin are not 2 witnesses, but 4. Kaladin, Syl, Szeth and his Highspren. We can also count Nightblood, but he (it?) is unrelaiable, because he (it?) does not feel time properly.

Assuming that Kal and Szeth both survive the encounter, and both maintain their Oaths and bonds... Honestly, it could be Kal and Syl survive, and those are the two witnesses.... hmmmmmmmm

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

So, not that it actually helps that much, but I had MSFT Copilot analyze the chapter headings we have so far, and give me the breakdown of which character's voices match the voice used in the headings. The response below in bold:

Focusing solely on the voice and style of the writing, here are some characters from The Stormlight Archive whose speech patterns and narrative styles might closely resemble the quotes you provided:

1. Navani Kholin - Navani often speaks in a reflective and analytical manner, with a focus on history and philosophy. The detailed and contemplative nature of the quotes aligns well with her voice.
2. Shallan Davar - Shallan’s introspective and poetic style, especially when she is deep in thought or recording her observations, could match the tone of these quotes.
3. Jasnah Kholin - Jasnah’s scholarly and philosophical approach, combined with her interest in historical nuances, makes her a potential match for the voice in these quotes.

Personally, I strongly lean towards Shallan at the moment, but could definitely see Jasnah. Szeth is my number 3. Kaladin is my dark horse number 4 but I kind of doubt it.

[Subvisual Haze]

42 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Oooooh. Jasnah hearing wind voices made her insane? Everyone thought she was schizophrenic? 

Yep, and tossed her in a dark cell presumably sparking her dislike of Vorinism.

Speaking of Jasnah and The Wind, at the end of Oathbringer when she was about to unalive Renarin a gust of wind and a couple gloryspren fly by.

[listerfeend]

58 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Oooooh. Jasnah hearing wind voices made her insane? Everyone thought she was schizophrenic? 

I like this idea, but it seems to be thwarted by what the epigraphs have told us so far. We are explicitly being told that the Wind could speak up specifically because of the change to Todium. So, if the Wind was able to talk back then, why? And how? And why did that change for another...20 something years and then need Todium to be able to reach out to Kal?

[Subvisual Haze]

Another possibility is that Jasnah is writing the book and quoting her two witnesses of the events (most likely Szeth and Kaladin).  Hence the difficulty in reconciling the details to one voice.

[bmcclure7]

Crazy theory what if the wind is syl? What if something happens to her while in shinvar we know at least two people will have to die according to the epigraph. If it’s all and sly

[+robardin he/him]

18 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Crazy theory what if the wind is syl? What if something happens to her while in shinvar we know at least two people will have to die according to the epigraph. If it’s all and sly

I don't think Syl reads, nor describes herself at times as either an historian or a philosopher.

Assuming it's someone we've seen before in Stormlight (as a main character and native of Roshar, not Khriss or some Silverlight Worldhopper scholar), the leading candidates for sure are Navani or Jasnah, IMHO. (Shallan a distant third, it's not her "tone" of writing, plus Shallan doesn't write, she draws!)

Personally I think it's Jasnah, a prominent and self-identified "Veristitalian" in TWoK when Shallan first goes to her in Kharbranth, an "order" of scholarship dedicated to the study of history.

Meanwhile, Navani is far more practical (an artifabrian), even getting "lectured by [her] own daughter... again" about the importance of history when she (Navani) dismissed the gemstone archive found at Urithiru as "mostly containing personal histories" with the comment "Damnation!".

Add to that the implication that the writer of KoWaT had "known" the Wind at some time in her personal past and the as-yet-unexplored reasons for Jasnah's "mental breakdown" that got her locked away for a while before TWoK, and yeah... I'm totally in Camp Jasnah.

"But the Wind said that the change in Odium's Vessel is what allowed her to restore her voice!" Yes, and yet, the Wind also apologized to Kaladin for having to "ask more" of him, and he felt it was familiar even as he'd never heard the voice before. So there's "knowing" the Wind, as even young Kaladin mentioned a few times, and actually "hearing" the Wind in words?

(And were the later "voices" Jasnah heard related to her nascent spren bond with Ivory, the way that Shallan and Elhokar saw the "shadows and shapes" of Cryptics in corners and mirrors?)

Edited August 19, 2024 by robardin

[RedBlue]

After the ‘historian and philosopher’ comment, I’m inclined to think the author might be Jasnah. As others have pointed out, she has a mysterious childhood illness which might be partially explained by the Wind messing with her in some way.

Alternatively, can we rule out Renarin? I know he’s not officially a historian, but he’s got a lot of scholar type stuff going on that is mostly offscreen, so he might get to a point where he considers himself a historian by the end of the book. And there’s every possibility the Wind could have been messing with Renarin as a kid.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

I don't think Syl reads, nor describes herself at times as either an historian or a philosopher.

Assuming it's someone we've seen before in Stormlight (as a main character and native of Roshar, not Khriss or some Silverlight Worldhopper scholar), the leading candidates for sure are Navani or Jasnah, IMHO. (Shallan a distant third, it's not her "tone" of writing, plus Shallan doesn't write, she draws!)

Personally I think it's Jasnah, a prominent and self-identified "Veristitalian" in TWoK when Shallan first goes to her in Kharbranth, an "order" of scholarship dedicated to the study of history.

Meanwhile, Navani is far more practical (an artifabrian), even getting "lectured by [her] own daughter... again" about the importance of history when she (Navani) dismissed the gemstone archive found at Urithiru as "mostly containing personal histories" with the comment "Damnation!".

Add to that the implication that the writer of KoWaT had "known" the Wind at some time in her personal past and the as-yet-unexplored reasons for Jasnah's "mental breakdown" that got her locked away for a while before TWoK, and yeah... I'm totally in Camp Jasnah.

"But the Wind said that the change in Odium's Vessel is what allowed her to restore her voice!" Yes, and yet, the Wind also apologized to Kaladin for having to "ask more" of him, and he felt it was familiar even as he'd never heard the voice before. So there's "knowing" the Wind, as even young Kaladin mentioned a few times, and actually "hearing" the Wind in words?

(And were the later "voices" Jasnah heard related to her nascent spren bond with Ivory, the way that Shallan and Elhokar saw the "shadows and shapes" of Cryptics in corners and mirrors?)

I was thinking about syl being the wind, not the writer 
 

You assume that the wind and the voice are the same thing we don’t know that for certain.

 

10 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

After the ‘historian and philosopher’ comment, I’m inclined to think the author might be Jasnah. As others have pointed out, she has a mysterious childhood illness which might be partially explained by the Wind messing with her in some way.

Alternatively, can we rule out Renarin? I know he’s not officially a historian, but he’s got a lot of scholar type stuff going on that is mostly offscreen, so he might get to a point where he considers himself a historian by the end of the book. And there’s every possibility the Wind could have been messing with Renarin as a kid.

Another possibility which could be interesting as no one we know, but instead of historian generations form now. Or perhaps just in back half. 

[+mdross81 he/him]

Count me among those coming around to the idea that Jasnah is the author. 

She’s one of only a few characters who is both a historian and a philosopher. 

She, like the author, is cosmere-aware enough to be able to talk about Shard vessels. 

And she’s likely to be one of the first people to know about the change in Odium’s vessel given her relationship with Hoid and his eventual realization that he hadn’t been speaking with Rayse  in the RoW epilogue.

As others have mentioned, the idea that there were signs throughout her life that she was being watched, fits with the mysterious childhood illness.

Also, the idea that the Heralds vanishing deprives the author of sources fits with Jasnah’s work trying to learn from Taln and Ash.

But beyond all of that, the tone just feels like Jasnah to me. The desire to collect information from firsthand sources. The questioning of whether what the Wind said about regaining her voice was actually accurate. It all just points to her  

 

[Kesamijr]

Don’t know why no one has mentioned Hesina/Lirin? Both were, by extension, watched by the Wind if the wind was watching Kaladin, lots of themes about childhood and dreams, we know both are educated. I agree with people saying that this book could be the first we’ve seen from the future rather than the present/past.

I also like the shouts of:

Syl

Sigzil

Jasnah

Shallan

Zahel

 

And if it’s a future book can see rogue shouts like

Lift

Nohadon

Gavilar

One of the versititalians/Hessi

Or even like Gavinor if it’s FAR far future

[Diomedes]

8 minutes ago, Kesamijr said:

Don’t know why no one has mentioned Hesina/Lirin? Both were, by extension, watched by the Wind if the wind was watching Kaladin, lots of themes about childhood and dreams, we know both are educated.

Well it could be anybody, but as far as we are led to believe up to this point Jasnah is the best candidate. Unless Sanderson is messing with us, which, granted, is also very likely.

[Smye]

Honestly... I'm also wondering about Gavinor. It's a long shot, but hear me out - if the Wind was only able to speak again after the ascension of TOdium, and the Wind has been speaking to the author since childhood, could he be a contender, authoring the book during the second arc? Or Oroden, or (dare I even utter his name?) Adin.

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, mdross81 said:

Count me among those coming around to the idea that Jasnah is the author. 

She’s one of only a few characters who is both a historian and a philosopher. 

She, like the author, is cosmere-aware enough to be able to talk about Shard vessels. 

And she’s likely to be one of the first people to know about the change in Odium’s vessel given her relationship with Hoid and his eventual realization that he hadn’t been speaking with Rayse  in the RoW epilogue.

As others have mentioned, the idea that there were signs throughout her life that she was being watched, fits with the mysterious childhood illness.

Also, the idea that the Heralds vanishing deprives the author of sources fits with Jasnah’s work trying to learn from Taln and Ash.

But beyond all of that, the tone just feels like Jasnah to me. The desire to collect information from firsthand sources. The questioning of whether what the Wind said about regaining her voice was actually accurate. It all just points to her  

 

 

3 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Well it could be anybody, but as far as we are led to believe up to this point Jasnah is the best candidate. Unless Sanderson is messing with us, which, granted, is also very likely.

 

 

i feel like it lacks Jasnah’s cynical view of religion. There is a reverence to the tone when it talks the wind that’s not how Jasnah would speak about it. 
 It also not technically enough to be her.

[Isilel]

16 hours ago, listerfeend said:

 I'm wondering who else it might be besides Kaladin, mostly because we haven't really seen anything but the voices of the damned talking to Szeth. He's got a lot of weirdness going on....

 

I have long maintained that the voice that spoke to Szeth when he was young and warned him about the upcoming Desolation couldn't have been his current highspren. Because didn't the  highspren think that they could prevent one from happening by helping Nale  suppress other Orders?

So, I used to think that Szeth was in the early stages of bonding a different type of spren and when he accepted being Truthless, the nascent bond dissolved. 

But maybe it was the Wind talking to him instead? She does ask Kaladin to come to her in Shinovar, perhaps she is particularly strong there and could occasionally speak to people even when Rayse was alive?

[+robardin he/him]

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

 

I have long maintained that the voice that spoke to Szeth when he was young and warned him about the upcoming Desolation couldn't have been his current highspren. Because didn't the  highspren think that they could prevent one from happening by helping Nale  suppress other Orders?

So, I used to think that Szeth was in the early stages of bonding a different type of spren and when he accepted being Truthless, the nascent bond dissolved. 

But maybe it was the Wind talking to him instead? She does ask Kaladin to come to her in Shinovar, perhaps she is particularly strong there and could occasionally speak to people even when Rayse was alive?

Yeah I thought about this angle as well. Szeth can read and write Alethi, as we know from the Gavilar prologue to TWoK.

But he has never considered himself an historian or a philosopher, so far as I know. He’s definitely a man of action and few words.

It’d be an interesting development if it turns out that before being made Truthless, Szeth had been a nerdy guy buried in history and philosophy books while training with “all ten Surges” with the eight Honorblades in Shinovar for as yet unknown reasons. LOL

[listerfeend]

13 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

Don’t know why no one has mentioned Hesina/Lirin? Both were, by extension, watched by the Wind if the wind was watching Kaladin

The Wind watching Kaladin as a child is not the same as Hesina/Lirin being watched by the Wind as a child, or knowing the Wind as a child. While it doesn't really rule them out, neither Lirin nor Hesina are really described by "historian and philosopher". I think that there are many possibilities, but neither of them seem very high on the list to me.

[+Child of Hodor]

Jasnah is the only major character that currently is both a historian and a philosopher. She called her "lesson" to Shallan in WoK "Philosophy in action".  

Quote

Regardless, the events surrounding the cleansing of Shinovar are of specific relevance, and I am doing my best to record what I can discover of the Wind’s own words regarding them. Though, now that the Wind and Heralds have vanished, I have only two sources who can speak of these events.

This makes me think the person writing this was not involved in the cleansing of Shinovar and didn't hear firsthand what the Wind said regarding them. That makes it less likely to be Kaladin or Szeth considering they will be heavily involved in what happens in Shinovar and the Wind is currently talking to Kaladin and presumably will continue to talk to him for a while. 

The "two sources" the author of the book is left with regarding the cleansing of Shinovar could be Kaladin and Szeth unless one of them dies and it's just Szeth and his spren or Kaladin and Syl. 

[+robardin he/him]

9 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Jasnah is the only major character that currently is both a historian and a philosopher. She called her "lesson" to Shallan in WoK "Philosophy in action".  

This makes me think the person writing this was not involved in the cleansing of Shinovar and didn't hear firsthand what the Wind said regarding them. That makes it less likely to be Kaladin or Szeth considering they will be heavily involved in what happens in Shinovar and the Wind is currently talking to Kaladin and presumably will continue to talk to him for a while. 

The "two sources" the author of the book is left with regarding the cleansing of Shinovar could be Kaladin and Szeth unless one of them dies and it's just Szeth and his spren or Kaladin and Syl. 

That's my reading of this as well.

The writer of KoWaT is a historian/philosopher who has read deeply of the past, was not present at the "cleansing of Shinovar" that had only two direct participants/witnesses remaining, and which resulted in the disappearance of the Heralds and "the Wind", which the writer had "known" in their past.

Moreover, the Wind (having "recovered her voice" after Taravangian's Ascension) spoke of "the cleansing of Shinovar" using "her own words" directly to both of those two "sources".

Since we know Kaladin and Szeth (and their spren) are heading over there now, it stands to reason it's the two of them, or one of them and their spren (note that Szeth's highspren barely speaks even to him, so far more likely it's Kal and Syl if it's a human/spren pair).

It's so obvious that it's almost MORE likely that this is a Sanderson Blind Alley

Edited August 20, 2024 by robardin