Shallan might be Chanarach?

leacanov · July 16, 2024

I have seen the theory that Shallans mom is Chanarach. I have not seen anyone support the idea that shallan herself is Chanarach. I want to put some thoughts here and see what you guys come up with. Definetely some holes right now.

My theory:

Shallan is an illusion created by the herald Chana so she could escape her tortured mind. Restart life as a kid. The whole problem of being controlled by your illusions is the manifestation of Chana’s messed up mind. She was a light weaver in the first place. She used to be in control of the roles she could play, now she is controlled by them. That is why shallan gets sucked into her characters so completely. She isn’t just messed up in the head in a normal way, she is herald messed up in the head. The secret is that shallan herself is a Made up character, and formless is either the herald taking back over, or the last line of defense that keeps the herald from taking over.

Shallans ability to “take a memory” doesn’t fit super well with the rest of the radiant powers, and there is a moment where one of the heralds mentions that wit taught them how to use investiture to store memories. that ability is weirdly identical to what shallan does, so maybe shallan is actually doing the same thing since she learned how to do it from wit as a herald. To my knowledge we haven’t seen anyone else do this.

This is also why wit made such a wierd reaction to seeing her for the first time. He saw right through the illusion and was suprized to see a herald. It also explains why he is so nice to her. He has a huge soft spot for the heralds because they were tortured for so long, and helped keep odium locked up. He is trying to help Chana overcome her own mind. When he says things like “keep chipping at those bonds little one” he isn’t just talking about family problems (quote may not be exact) he is referring to a heralds effort to overcome their tormented mind.

Also explains why even though we see Nale hunting down tons of surgebinders, we get no mention of him showing up to harass shallan, even though she was one for a long time. I think I remember a section where shallan POV randomly notices a tall man in a suit in the crowd. Maybe that is a tiny hint of a reference at Nale showing up and immediately leaving her alone. (Definetely a stretch)

it also helps further explain why she is so opposed to thinking about mother. It is a hole in her lie, perhaps “mother” was Chana, and then ”Chana” took the real kids place, and now thinking of mom makes it hard to keep the lie in place. She herself is mother.

There are a lot of quotes that stand out when you read the books this way. Shallan saying things like “shallan was the biggest lie of them all” in reference to her personas falling apart.

Also gives more explanation behind her being given multiple spren, and pattern saying that he would die and they would “send another”. she’s a herald… she’s famous?

Spren fill the cracks in souls, perhaps the criptics hatched a plan to fix Chana’s soul by repeatedly bonding her to Spren until all the cracks were filled?

Some meta reasoning:

Brandon originally intended to have taln be a main character that didn’t remember who he was and slowly discovered his mission as a herald. It would be very Brandon to have “scrapped” this idea, but actually just reworked it into a different part of the story. He does things like this a lot.

The existence of Nale as a hunter in several stories of radiants, yet completely lacking from shallan despite her being radient for so long seems almost an extra proof in itself. Shallan as Chanarach needs something that makes her story different than the other knights. The lack of a run in with Nale will later serve as an extra kernel of support for her full story.

Other thoughts:

Heralds have all displays inversions or corruptions of their Divine attributes. The king is a beggar, the judge was wielding the law with prejudice and agenda, etc.

Chanas attributes are bravery and obedience. So how is she the opposite or inverted versions of these…

Cowardice or foolhardy bravery would be the fit for inversion of bravery. I think both can be extracted if you try hard enough :). Shallan is constantly being stupidly brave, steeling a soulcaster is the first plan we see her undertake. Pretty ridiculous. Then infiltrating the ghostbloods despite “no experience” with that sort of thing. The way she forces herself into Sabarials retinue in front of the entire court… Then there are the host of more minor things like stabbing the big horn eater man, drinking way too much with no real plan going in, the list goes on.

Cowerdice is also seen in the way she completely avoids soul casting for 3 whole books. At one point she blames that specifically on fear.

Disobedience is pretty apparent as well in almost every interaction with Jasnah, which is one of the only true authorities she is given in the books.

There is also Shallans boundless competence. She is supposedly just a kid from a backwater Veden house, yet she can infiltrate a cosmere wide organization like the ghostbloods effortlessly? Seems like every scene with her doesn’t make sense if it’s a ~20 year old kid…

Biggest hole In this theory is… How did she become a kid?
Can illusions make an adult look like a kid?
Can Chana soul cast well enough to make herself a different body?
Is there some wierd soul “magic” going on involving hemalurgy, or some other method to attach a herald soul to a child?

Could this be tied to what shallan means when she mentions mothers soul so often? Supposedly just the shardblade, but why does the wall glow in her memory sequences even though she later realized the sword vanished right away?

Sorry for the typos and messy grammar. Trying to get this off my mind so I can sleep.
Also sorry if I broke any rules with this, I’m new to this sort of thing.

alder24 · July 16, 2024

2 hours ago, leacanov said:

I have seen the theory that Shallans mom is Chanarach. I have not seen anyone support the idea that shallan herself is Chanarach. I want to put some thoughts here and see what you guys come up with. Definetely some holes right now.

My theory:

Shallan is an illusion created by the herald Chana so she could escape her tortured mind. Restart life as a kid. The whole problem of being controlled by your illusions is the manifestation of Chana’s messed up mind. She was a light weaver in the first place. She used to be in control of the roles she could play, now she is controlled by them. That is why shallan gets sucked into her characters so completely. She isn’t just messed up in the head in a normal way, she is herald messed up in the head. The secret is that shallan herself is a Made up character, and formless is either the herald taking back over, or the last line of defense that keeps the herald from taking over.

How would Chana be able to create an illusion? She was a Herald, not a Radiant, her powers came from her Honorblade, which granted her powers of Abrasion and Division - not Illumination. Chana was a patron of Dustbringers, not Lightweavers. Moreover her blade is still accounted for in Shinovar - the only blades Shins are missing are Jezrien's blade, Nale's blade and Taln's (at least pre WoK). Honorblades granting powers of Illuminations should be still in Shinovar, as Szeth noted that only Nale's blade went missing some time in the distant past. Chana would have no ability to create any illusion.

Moreover, how would that explain the behavior of Shallan's brothers and her father? Was Channa not killed in this theory? Did Shallan exist before Chana became her? They know Shallan as Shallan, not Chana. They all remember and referenced multiple times the day Shallan's mother was killed. How can they not react to the fact that their mother suddenly turned into a kid who wasn't there before? Yes, Shallan isn’t a reliable narrator, but it's really hard to explain that Chana suddenly disappeared and in her place they suddenly have a grown up child.

And lastly, if Shallan was Chana, she would have felt Jezrien's death, just like Ash and Taln did. Illusions and perception can go a long way, but that won't remove her Connection to the Oathpact. It also seems very unlikely that Kalak wouldn't be able to recognize Chana, even under an illusion. None of this happened.

2 hours ago, leacanov said:

Shallans ability to “take a memory” doesn’t fit super well with the rest of the radiant powers, and there is a moment where one of the heralds mentions that wit taught them how to use investiture to store memories. that ability is weirdly identical to what shallan does, so maybe shallan is actually doing the same thing since she learned how to do it from wit as a herald. To my knowledge we haven’t seen anyone else do this.

Shallan's ability to take Memories is a resonance of her order - just like Windrunners can have more squires, all Lightweavers have something like that. WoR ch 49 epigraphs:

Quote

These Lightweavers, by no coincidence, included many who pursued the arts; namely: writers, artists, musicians, painters, sculptors. Considering the order's general temperament, the tales of their strange and varied mnemonic abilities may have been embellished.

Is Shallan's memory a Surge?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I want to wait for the right opportunity before revealing more surges.

Footnote: It has since been revealed that Shallan's Memories are not a Surge but rather the Lightweaver Resonance.
Alloy of Law York signing (Nov. 24, 2011)

It's not identical, Heralds weren't taught how to store memories, Hoid mentioned to them that it's possible and it would have helped them - but they didn't learn it. every single Herald we've seen is crazy and that means they've never learned to store memories. The ability to store memories removes them completely from your mind and puts them in investiture (Breaths, which Shallan doesn't have). When memories are stored, you can't recall that moment, until you bring them back from investiture. But Shallan was able to remember all Memories she made, she was able to redraw her paintings after losing them (not as good but still). This isn't like how storing memories work. RoW ch 84-89 epigraphs:

Quote

"Midius once told me … told me we could use Investiture … to enhance our minds, our memories, so we wouldn’t forget so much."
"Why would I want to remember?"
"Maybe if I remembered my life, I’d be capable of being confident like I once was. Maybe I’d stop vacillating when even the most simple of decisions is presented to me."
"Instead I think, if I were to remember my life in detail, I would become even worse. Paralyzed by my terrible actions. I should not like to remember all those I have failed."

Spoiler

Questioner

Memory is tied to some level or portion of Spiritual Identity, or else Feruchemists would not be able to store it. So, Hoid lost memories at the end of Rhythm of War in his exchange with Odium. Would that mean part of his soul was stolen and then absorbed into Odium, and if so, what is stopping Odium from doing that with all of his enemies?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, what Odium split off is stuff that Hoid is storing in excess Investiture. (Basically, it was Breaths, in Hoid’s case.) And this sort of thing, where this extra memory… One of the reasons that Hoid is able to function better than, perhaps, some other very long-lived individuals is: he has found out how to keep some of this Identity in, shall we say, SD cards made of Investiture. Imagine that sort of thing. So what Odium was stealing from Hoid was straight out of an SD card. Which means that it’s not nearly as deeply ripping into someone’s soul, and it is also not nearly as noticeable.

But the other thing is: Hoid is directly in violation of certain agreements that have been made, which therefore exposes him to… He is lacking protections. As you’ll notice in the end of Book Three, where he’s like, “I need to be careful, because I am in violation.”

And so, there’s a couple things going on here. Number one, much more easy to access those memories. Number two, Hoid’s in direct violation and under no protections of any sorts of agreements and things like this.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

Mistborn and Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

It's exactly the same thing as Feruchemical copper. And during Warbreaker we saw the same method Hoid is using. Warbreaker ch 49:

Quote

They passed from shanties, to tenements, to decent homes on tree- lined streets with burning lanterns. As they reached the mansions, Vasher paused on the street, setting the girl down. “Child,” he said. “I’m going to say some words to you. I want you to repeat them. Repeat them, and mean them.”
[...]
He spoke to the little girl, and she spoke back to him.
After opening the cage, Vivenna had taken the Breath back from the thread. She hadn’t stowed it somewhere else. And, with the extra awareness she had, she thought she saw something. The girl’s BioChromatic aura—the normal one that all people had—flickered just slightly.
It was faint. Yet with the First Heightening, Vivenna could have sworn she saw it.
[...]
Vasher stood, the girl climbing back into his arms. Vivenna walked up and was surprised to hear the girl talking. “Where’s Daddy?” she asked.
Vasher didn’t reply.
“I’m dirty,” the girl said, looking down. “Mommy doesn’t like it when I get dirty. The dress is dirty too.”
Vasher began walking. Vivenna hurriedly caught up.
“Are we going home?” the girl asked. “Where have we been? It’s late, and I shouldn’t be out. Who’s that woman?”
She doesn’t remember, Vivenna realized. Doesn’t remember where she’s been . . . probably doesn’t remember anything of the entire experience.

2 hours ago, leacanov said:

Also explains why even though we see Nale hunting down tons of surgebinders, we get no mention of him showing up to harass shallan, even though she was one for a long time.

There was a Skybreaker acolyte with Shallan's mother trying to kill Shallan that night. It seems Nale has sent someone to kill her. As we know from Edgedancer, Nale doesn't always do it himself, the entire order was focused on this task. OB ch 40:

Quote

Your mother had intimate contact with a Skybreaker acolyte, and you know the result of that relationship.

Kaladin also wasn't hunted down, just like Jasnah and a few others. Nale simply missed them. It happens. Or he didn't have any legal justification to kill them - he needed them to break some law first, he wouldn't kill someone who didn't commit any crime at all. While Shallan did kill her father, she did it in response to him killing her step-mother and beating her brother - it was justice. Plus up until WoK, Shallan was not a Radiant anymore - Nale might have thought that the problem was solved when Shallan broke her Oaths and killed her spren.

2 hours ago, leacanov said:

it also helps further explain why she is so opposed to thinking about mother. It is a hole in her lie, perhaps “mother” was Chana, and then ”Chana” took the real kids place, and now thinking of mom makes it hard to keep the lie in place. She herself is mother.

She's repressing her memories. Just like she repressed her memories about Testament and replaced them with Pattern, she's avoiding thinking about her mother most likely because she knows she was a Heralds. This is nothing new, it's already explained well enough.

2 hours ago, leacanov said:

Also gives more explanation behind her being given multiple spren, and pattern saying that he would die and they would “send another”. she’s a herald… she’s famous?

And being a daughter of a Herald isn't famous enough? It's not about fame, it's probably more about her special Spiritual abilities from the fact that she's a Herald's child.

2 hours ago, leacanov said:

Spren fill the cracks in souls, perhaps the criptics hatched a plan to fix Chana’s soul by repeatedly bonding her to Spren until all the cracks were filled?

It won't work, Nale is a Skybreaker, bonded with a Highspren and he's as insane as others. Herald's insanity is more than just cracks in their soul - it's about their soul which wasn't made to last that long, plus eons of torture.

Spoiler

Questioner

Why or how are the Heralds the only ones we've seen so far that are affected by magical maladies due to either their high Investiture or long lives?

Brandon Sanderson

I would argue the Fused are having the same situation, so they're not the only ones. The why and how... there's a whole host of things going on here. Like a lot of physical and mental illness, it's not one thing or the other. But it is a compound of other things.

One is going so long without certain protections that you kind of need to take. The human being's soul might be immortal, depending on your argument in the cosmere. (That's really up to you.) But they certainly aren't meant for thousands of years of existence, the same way that our bodies aren't. There's some of that.

There's some of the things they've been through. Like, legit trauma; this is not all simply a magical ailment. You've got people with PTSD, layers of PTSD on top of layers of PTSD, for thousands of years, bearing things that no human being without their level of Investiture would even be able to bear. You've got that manifestation, you've got their own sense of guilt.

And these things are all just kind of overlapping together with the fact they've been alive for so, so very long. And a lot of the people that you've seen otherwise have not been alive nearly... orders of magnitude more for the Heralds. The only people you've seen that are that old are: some of the dragons, Hoid, and Vessels of various Shards. And you're basically at that group. And this is a group who knows what they're doing. Either they were built like the dragons, this is part of their innate nature, that they are functionally immortal. Or you are getting the Shards. Or you're getting people that are 300 years old, which is a very different thing, cosmere-wise, than having lived for thousands and thousands of years, part of it being torture.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

2 hours ago, leacanov said:

There is also Shallans boundless competence. She is supposedly just a kid from a backwater Veden house, yet she can infiltrate a cosmere wide organization like the ghostbloods effortlessly? Seems like every scene with her doesn’t make sense if it’s a ~20 year old kid…

She had a little help because she was one of the first Radiant with magical powers not seen on Roshar for around 2500 years. Her Surgebinding abilities are the only reason she was able to enter Ghostbloods and "trick" them.

Personally I believe that Shallan as a kid was a Ghostbloods - that's why she remembers using a Seon as a kid, that's why Mraize knows so much about her past, that's why he knows she's lying to herself, that's why he calls her little knife and there were a few other things as well.

2 hours ago, leacanov said:

Biggest hole In this theory is… How did she become a kid?
Can illusions make an adult look like a kid?
Can Chana soul cast well enough to make herself a different body?
Is there some wierd soul “magic” going on involving hemalurgy, or some other method to attach a herald soul to a child?

That's easy to explain if you know more about Cognitive Shadows and their nature, which Heralds are. They can change their appearance to some degree. Remember Azure? She's somewhat special and while she isn't a Cognitive Shadow, she's related to them - she can change her look, hair colors, create scars on her face etc. Cognitive Shadows can fully change their appearance and their age too (but they will still look like them). It's all about perception and how they view themselves. OB ch 89:

Quote

Azure followed, her shoulders sagging. In fact, her … her hair was fading. It was the strangest thing; Adolin watched it dim from Alethi jet-black to a faint grey as she sat down.

Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

In Warbreaker Vivenna (Azure in SA) and SIri can change the color and length of their hair, while Returned can fully shift their appearance. Warbreaker ch 58:

Quote

Vasher closed his eyes. He didn’t speak, didn’t use his Breath or make a Command. Yet suddenly, he started to glow. Not as a lantern would glow, not as the sun glowed, but with an aura that made colors brighter. Vivenna started as Vasher increased in size. He opened his eyes and adjusted the wrap at his waist, making room for his growth. His chest became more firm, the muscles bulging, and the scruffy beard on his face retreated, leaving him clean- shaven.
His hair turned golden. He still bore the cuts on his body, but they seemed inconsequential. He seemed . . . divine. The God King watched with interest. He was now faced by a fellow god, a man of his own stature

Warbreaker epilogue:

Quote

“How do you keep yourself from looking like a Returned? And why don’t you die when you give away your Breaths?”
“Those are my secrets,” he said, not looking at her. “Though you should have figured out that Returned can change their forms.”
She raised an eyebrow.
“You’ve got Returned blood in you,” he said. “The royal line. Where do you think that ability to change your hair color comes from?”
“Does that mean I can change more than just my hair?”
“Maybe,” he said. “Takes time to learn. Go stroll around the Hallandren Court of Gods sometime, though. You’ll find that the gods look exactly as they think they should. The old ones look old, the heroic ones become strong, the ones who think a beautiful goddess should be well endowed become unnaturally voluptuous. It’s all about how they perceive themselves.”
And this is how you perceive yourself, Vasher? she thought, curious. As the scraggly man, rough and unkempt?

2 hours ago, leacanov said:

Sorry for the typos and messy grammar. Trying to get this off my mind so I can sleep.
Also sorry if I broke any rules with this, I’m new to this sort of thing.

Welcome to the Shard No rules were broken, it's fine.

Overall it's an interesting theory, you put a lot of good work in it, you've made a few good points that make sense, but I'm very skeptical of it. Shallan always being Chana is very problematic as that would mean all her memories, flashbacks and interactions with her "brothers" (should I say sons?) are lies and made up stories. This would be too much that would have to be thrown into the trash - an entire flashback section of WoR is basically useless now as it's all lies. Yes, Shallan is not to be trusted, there are still lies in her past, we know of it, but the truth is hidden there for us to discover - like Testament. Now that we know about Testament we can reread moments when Shallan was summoning a Shardblade in WoK/WoR and find out which was Pattern and which was Testament as clues are all there, hidden in plain sight. Saying that Shallan was a lie and it was always Chana seems not the way Brandon would write.

However I agree, there might be some of Chana inside of Shallan (Radiant), because of the fact that Shallan is her daughter, but not all of her and Chana isn't Shallan, Chana is still out there on Roshar. Chana was 100% killed by Shallan and since then something might have happened to Shallan and Chana and Radiant is manifestation of Chana, or at least she looks like Chana. Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

Just like Returned descendants have a little part of a Divine Breath in them, which grants them some special abilities, like changing appearance, Shallan would have something like that as well.

Edited July 16, 2024 by alder24

Atlas333 · July 16, 2024

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Moreover, how would that explain the behavior of Shallan's brothers and her father? Was Channa not killed in this theory? Did Shallan exist before Chana became her? They know Shallan as Shallan, not Chana. They all remember and referenced multiple times the day Shallan's mother was killed. How can they not react to the fact that their mother suddenly turned into a kid who wasn't there before? Yes, Shallan isn’t a reliable narrator, but it's really hard to explain that Chana suddenly disappeared and in her place they suddenly have a grown up child.

I think the implication would be that Shallan was actually the one who died, not her mom, but then overcome with grief Chana became Shallan and took her place. Is it a stretch? Probably, but it's a cool theory regardless.

coolsnow7 · July 16, 2024

I think this is more likely to be correct than “Shallan’s mom is Chana” theory.

I’ll say up front I don’t know how the mechanics will work. But there’s a whole book for those to be worked out.

If I’m going to choose between a theory that works thematically vs. a theory that works mechanically, I will choose the theory that works thematically 100% of the time - and Shallan’s mother being Chana does NOT work thematically AT ALL.

coolsnow7 · July 16, 2024

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

How would Chana be able to create an illusion?

Shallan bonded a Cryptic.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Moreover, how would that explain the behavior of Shallan's brothers and her father?

This is also simple: Chana had a child named Shallan, killed Shallan, and took here place. That, by the way, would be something to feel guilt for, as opposed to killing her mother in self-defense - who happens to be the key to the Oathpact and oops now Roshar is existentially threatened (please ignore Kelsier saying “sometimes I think none of what we did made this any more or less likely to occur” to Dalinar which blows that theory up.)

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

And lastly, if Shallan was Chana, she would have felt Jezrien's death, just like Ash and Taln did.

Counterpoint: she wouldn’t. Who’s right? No one, because we know nothing about the mechanics of such a thing. For all we know, Chana did some extra super duper illusion making magic that prevents her from feeling it. Or, her personas blocked her from feeling it or remembering feeling it. There are a lot of plausible options here, and you’re making an assumption about mechanics that is unwarranted.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

There was a Skybreaker acolyte with Shallan's mother trying to kill Shallan that night.

I don’t think Nale would forget to send another one

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Personally I believe that Shallan as a kid was a Ghostbloods - that's why she remembers using a Seon as a kid, that's why Mraize knows so much about her past, that's why he knows she's lying to herself, that's why he calls her little knife and there were a few other things as well.

Then why are they re-initiating her instead of saying “you’re already a member”? How did she manage to get so much training by age 10 or so? Why doesn’t she have a tattoo? If you say “she illusions away her tattoo” well then we’re already in the territory of her perpetually maintaining a Shallan illusion.

I want to reiterate that the “Chana was Shallan’s mom and Shallan is just Shallan” theory fits badly thematically and doesn’t explain a number of difficulties OP raised (for example, why is Hoid so supportive of her - and only ever her? By contrast we see Hoid’s affection towards the Heralds in how he deals with Taln.) There’s no Occam’s Razor theory in terms of the plot or mechanics - we can poke holes (or make assumptions about mechanics and then poke holes) forever until the book comes out and Brandon elucidates the relevant mechanics. But thematically, Shallan feeling like a totally worthless person for killing her mother in self-defense and accidentally playing a role in the Final Desolation is… frankly silly and shallow. Contrast with Dalinar, who committed actual, blameworthy atrocities. Or Kaladin who struggles with suicide. Or Szeth who, in his attempt to be honorable, became a one-man death squad. Or Venli who knowingly led her people back to Odium because she was jealous of her sister.

By contrast, Chana being so overwhelmed by the torture and madness that she kills her own daughter to hide herself - from herself! - in her persona - now THAT’S a revelation worth building towards.

Two final points of evidence to add:

1) this theory explains what Radiant represents much much better: Radiant is the version of Chana that she hides from, all the good parts of her personality that made her a Herald candidate in the first place. In “Shallan kills her mother Chana”, what purpose does Radiant serve? In general I find “Shallan killed her mother” theorists completely neglect Radiant’s lack of role in their theories.

2) It’s clear that Ash, while the Herald of the Lightweavers, is going to become the book-length representative of the Dustbringers. It would be neat symmetry for Chana similarly to do this kind of “order swap”.

alder24 · July 16, 2024

6 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

Shallan bonded a Cryptic.

And she broke her bond after killing her mother.

7 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

This is also simple: Chana had a child named Shallan, killed Shallan, and took here place.

3 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

I think the implication would be that Shallan was actually the one who died, not her mom, but then overcome with grief Chana became Shallan and took her place. Is it a stretch? Probably, but it's a cool theory regardless.

Yes, this solves this problem. I didn't get this from the original post, it seemed to me that Chana suddenly decided to become a random kid.

10 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

That, by the way, would be something to feel guilt for, as opposed to killing her mother in self-defense

Killing your parents will ALWAYS be a traumatic experience and make you suffer guilt. She was her mother, Shallan loved her, remembers her fondly. You can't kill your beloved mother and feel nothing, you will feel guilt, no matter the circumstances.

13 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

Counterpoint: she wouldn’t. Who’s right? No one, because we know nothing about the mechanics of such a thing. For all we know, Chana did some extra super duper illusion making magic that prevents her from feeling it. Or, her personas blocked her from feeling it or remembering feeling it. There are a lot of plausible options here, and you’re making an assumption about mechanics that is unwarranted.

Yes, she would. Yes we do know the mechanics of it. The Oathpact is a bond shared by all Heralds. Even though they've broken their oaths, the bond is still Connecting them together. They can feel each other to some extent - they've all felt Jezrien's death. Chana is no different. Illusions don't affect Connections. Illusion won't hide or suppress this Connection they all share. It's just an illusion, nothing else. Even if Chana were to view herself as Shallan, it won't affect this Connection. Killing Jezrien severed his Connection, which felt like a piece of their soul was being ripped out - this isn't something you can hide behind an illusion. OB ch 121:

Quote

Ash stopped in place as something ripped inside of her.
Oh God. Oh, Adonalsium!
What was that? What was that?
Taln whimpered and collapsed, a puppet with cut strings. Ash stumbled, then sank to her knees. She wrapped her arms around herself, trembling. It wasn’t pain. It was something far, far worse. A loss, a hole inside of her, a piece of her soul being excised.
[...]
This wasn’t like their other deaths. This was something horrible. She couldn’t feel him at all.
[...]
The ripping sensation finally ended. So abruptly that—for the first time in thousands of years—Ash fell unconscious.

RoW ch 17:

Quote

Jasnah nodded, showing no sign of annoyance. “But the Oathpact no longer functions?”
“It’s broken,” Ash said. “Done, shattered, upended. They killed my father a year ago. Permanently, somehow. We all felt it.”

RoW ch 79 epigraphs:

Quote

"Jezrien is gone. Despite being all the way out here in Lasting Integrity, I felt him being ripped away. The Oathpact was broken already, but the Connection remained. Each of us can sense the others, to an extent. And with further investigation, I know the truth of what happened to him. It felt like death at first, and I think that is what it ultimately became."

Meanwhile as Jezrien was dying, Shallan was kissing. That isn't possible if she was Chana. She would have collapsed, just like other Heralds - no illusion can change that.

25 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

I don’t think Nale would forget to send another one

Or he realized that Shallan broke her bonds and he didn't need to send another one. Or he didn't know and his acolyte acted on his own to prove himself.

But reading the letter from Mraize, it seems that Nale knew someone from the Davar house was close to bonding a spren, but he incorrectly assumed that was Helaran, not Shallan. OB ch 40:

Quote

Nale may also have learned, through means we do not understand, that a member of your house was close to bonding a spren. If this is true, they came to believe that Helaran was the one they wanted.
[...]
Likely, Helaran was sent to kill Amaram as a test—either that or he took it upon himself as a way of proving his worthiness for knighthood.

30 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

Then why are they re-initiating her instead of saying “you’re already a member”? How did she manage to get so much training by age 10 or so? Why doesn’t she have a tattoo? If you say “she illusions away her tattoo” well then we’re already in the territory of her perpetually maintaining a Shallan illusion.

Because she was just a kid, she wasn't in contact for years, she stayed away from them, they might have not recognize her at first, they played it safe to ensure that she isn't a double agent, she wasn't a full Ghostblood, or was simply manipulated by Ghostbloods as a kid, which in my opinion is the most likely explanation.

Healing can push ink out of her body - we've seen this with Kaladin when he tried to get his tattoo.

34 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

I want to reiterate that the “Chana was Shallan’s mom and Shallan is just Shallan” theory fits badly thematically

I don't know what you mean it doesn't fit thematically. Shallan is revealing more disturbing truths about her and it gets worse and worse with each new one. From :I killed my father" to "I killed my mother too", lastly we have "I killed my spren." "I killed my god and started a new Desolation" is a truth fitting thematically. Each of them breaks Shallan more and more and makes her hate herself, view herself as the worst person imaginable, struggle with her self-worth more and more - those are real problems affecting real people, Shallan rising from the absolute worst, starting to believe that she's strong enough, that she deserve to be happy no matter of her sins is her theme.

36 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

for example, why is Hoid so supportive of her - and only ever her? By contrast we see Hoid’s affection towards the Heralds in how he deals with Taln.

Only her? Kaladin doesn't count for you? He told him even more stories than he told Shallan, he gave him his flute (!), he visited him in prison, he supported him during Odium's torture and risked his own life (!!) to give Kaladin a few minutes of rest. Hoid respects Dalinar and advises him multiple times, Hoid also has a soft spot for Renarin. They are all treated equally by supportive Hoid.

On the other hand Hoid respects and treats them with reverence - that's not how Hoid treats Shallan at all. RoW ch 17:

Quote

Wit treated them with a reverence Navani did not expect from him

42 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

But thematically, Shallan feeling like a totally worthless person for killing her mother in self-defense and accidentally playing a role in the Final Desolation is… frankly silly and shallow. Contrast with Dalinar, who committed actual, blameworthy atrocities.

I can't understand why you downplay the fact that Shallan killed her parents, who were a loving family to her in her early childhood. That's not something trivial, that's a very traumatic experience, fully justifying how she feels. Yes we, the audience know that she did it in self-defense, but you the reader don't care about Shallan's mother, you didn't experience your childhood years being embraced by her, cared for by her, laughing and playing with her in the garden - Shallan did. For her it's absolutely the greatest sin imaginable and it's fully understandable why she feels like this. She wants her loving family back, she wants her mother back, she wants to live her happy life once more - she can't, because she had to kill her mother and father. Just because it was in self-defense doesn't mean it was right. Killing your parents is never right.

Dalinar never killed any of his relatives, but he was absolutely terrified when he realized that he nearly attacked his brother. When Gavilar was killed, Dalinar felt guilt for years after, because he wasn't there to help his brother. Nothing helped him until he faced Szeth on his own and realized that he wouldn't have helped Gavilar that night, which finally put his guilt to rest. Shallan isn't there yet. That realization is only in front of her - if she takes necessary steps and accepts help from others.

WoR ch 88:

Quote

“I hate you,” she whispered, staring into her mother’s dead eyes.
“I know.” Pattern buzzed softly. “Eventually, you will kill me, and you will have your revenge.”
“I don’t want revenge. I want my family.”

53 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

In “Shallan kills her mother Chana”, what purpose does Radiant serve? In general I find “Shallan killed her mother” theorists completely neglect Radiant’s lack of role in their theories.

Radiant is a forshadowing. What purpose did Veil have? To protect Shallan from the truth. The same is with Radiant. Shallan suffers from a real mental disorder and both Veil and Radiant are there to show her overcome it.

Isilel · July 18, 2024

On 7/16/2024 at 8:46 PM, alder24 said:

Or he didn't know and his acolyte acted on his own to prove himself.

Let's not forget what Pattern said about Mraize's letter being full of lies. Personally, I don't think that the man was a Skybreaker acolyte. I doubt that Helaran would have gotten involved with them if he had been.

IMHO, both Lady Davar and the man were Ghostbloods and Shallan's mother was trying to force her daughter to do something that she resisted doing. Shallan having been trained by her mother and her Ghostblood associates for infiltration purposes would explain Veil's competence in this area.

On 7/16/2024 at 8:46 PM, alder24 said:

I can't understand why you downplay the fact that Shallan killed her parents, who were a loving family to her in her early childhood.

OTOH, in OB in the scene where Shallan performed "The Girl Who Looked Up" for Pattern, there were strong hints that the "happy childhood" was another lie. IIRC Shallan briefly thought about how the troupe's visit was the happiest time in her otherwise sad childhood and that she longed to run away with them. Also in RoW, when she finally remembered Testament, there is a mention of how her spren encouraged her to stand up to darkness spreading over her family. IMHO it is pretty clear that bad stuff in Davar household has started much earlier than Shallan's budding Radiance.

adouloumis · July 18, 2024

This is a very interesting theory but my main qualm with it would be that Shallan has said the truth that she killed her mother. I think it is safe to assume that Lightweavers cannot lie in their truths. How would this theory explain that? There is some wiggle room in that their spren decide what constitute truth and the Cryptics are weird but I fail to see how this would be anything but a blatant lie.

Spoiler

There is also the question in that the Wind and Truth prologue it is heavily suggested that a Herald died the day Shallan's mother died. So I would think that Chana being the mother would be a more straightforward explanation, though I could see Sanderson pulling something like this as well.

Edited July 26, 2024 by adouloumis

Fyodor32768 · July 18, 2024

The reason that Taln (who Brandon says never broke) is back is that Chanarach died and got sent beck to Braize and gave into torture. In the released Stormlight 5 prologue, set around the time of Shallan's mother's death, we learn that a Herald died (Chanarach). She went to Braize and yielded to torture. This is Shallan's final truth, that she started the desolations by killing her mother. It is perfectly thematically consistent. Each of Shallan's truths has been an increasingly bad or consequential thing she did. The last one is going to be that when she offed her mom she started the desolation

JohnnyKaizen · July 18, 2024

This is a really interesting theory, and I can see a lot of merit to it. The sad fact of the matter is that, a huge chunk of info we have on Shallan is false, twisted, and/or backwards. I look forward to getting some "set in stone" facts on Shallan's origin(s) and what actually happened, but until then, arguing the finer points of what we "know" about Shallan, is pretty moot. I would definitely not be mad if this turned out to be what happened.

alder24 · July 18, 2024

6 hours ago, adouloumis said:

SA5 spoilers:

Spoiler

There is also the question in that the Wind and Truth prologue it is heavily suggested that a Herald died the day Shallan's mother died. So I would think that Chana being the mother would be a more straightforward explanation, though I could see Sanderson pulling something like this as well.

3 hours ago, Fyodor32768 said:

SA5 spoilers:

Spoiler

The reason that Taln (who Brandon says never broke) is back is that Chanarach died and got sent beck to Braize and gave into torture. In the released Stormlight 5 prologue, set around the time of Shallan's mother's death, we learn that a Herald died (Chanarach). She went to Braize and yielded to torture. This is Shallan's final truth, that she started the desolations by killing her mother. It is perfectly thematically consistent. Each of Shallan's truths has been an increasingly bad or consequential thing she did. The last one is going to be that when she offed her mom she started the desolation

Any piece of information from upcoming releases and pre-released chapters of KoWT are not allowed here, should be marked as a spoiler and put into a spoiler box with a proper warning before it!! This is because there are people who avoid all spoilers and do not wish to know anything about KoWT until they’ll get the book in their hands. The only places where this isn't needed are topics clearly marked as SA5 (either by having [SA5] in the title or in tags), but otherwise until KoWT is released and a subforum for it is made, everything from preview readings needs to be marked as spoilers.

Please edit your posts by clicking the three dots menu in the upper right corner of your post, then choose "edit" option, highlight the proper section containing spoilers and click an eye icon in the toolbox above, which will put everything highlighted into a spoiler box. And just like I did in my quote boxes, please add a warning before the box because just placing a spoiler box tells us nothing about its content. Many people, including me, put WoBs in spoiler boxes, therefore someone might think it’s a WoB and get spoiled instead.

In the future please avoid even mentioning information from SA5 chapters in topics that don't discuss SA5 and aren't marked as such, even if that information confirms or disproves a theory - just mentioning it in a spoiler box is a spoiler on its own and if the original poster wanted to discuss SA5, he would have marked his topic and discussed this in the first place.

Edited July 18, 2024 by alder24

coolsnow7 · August 15, 2024

On 7/18/2024 at 9:41 AM, adouloumis said:

This is a very interesting theory but my main qualm with it would be that Shallan has said the truth that she killed her mother. I think it is safe to assume that Lightweavers cannot lie in their truths. How would this theory explain that? There is some wiggle room in that their spren decide what constitute truth and the Cryptics are weird but I fail to see how this would be anything but a blatant lie.

Reveal hidden contents

There is also the question in that the Wind and Truth prologue it is heavily suggested that a Herald died the day Shallan's mother died. So I would think that Chana being the mother would be a more straightforward explanation, though I could see Sanderson pulling something like this as well.

Simple: if Chana body-swapped with her daughter Shallan first, then killed her.

The fact is that this theory requires us to postulate some new mechanics a bit, so it’s not worth dwelling on those aspects. The strength of the theory is that it fits thematically and in terms of what Shallan says about herself, much much better than “I accidentally pressed the Desolation button.”

If Brandon goes the route of “Oops! I accidentally pressed the Desolation button! I need to learn not to hate myself” I will be disappointed, bored, and depressed. I don’t think he will, because he too understands that that’s not a book worth writing. Now, “I intentionally caused a Desolation and betrayed the Oathpact in a bid to escape my thousands year history as a Herald, and I’m hiding that fact from myself and everybody else” - that’s a book worth writing.

CognitiveShadow · August 20, 2024

I like the theory, but adding my vote that it makes much more sense for Shallan to be Shallan. Shallan killing her mother and starting the desolation is already a huge reveal for most of the people reading the books who haven't been digging around through interesting potential theories for the past few years and trying to predict what happens. It fits perfectly in my opinion - thematically and mechanically. This theory seems to be stretching for something that would be an extra big twist and surprise, and I like the idea of it and the possibility, but it just seems a little too extravagant and a very clunky fit with the rest of the story.

I understand that we don't know how much we can trust of Shallan's memories and things, but I think this being the solution is just too much of a "psych, everything you thought you knew was a lie the whole time, she IS her mother" whereas the currently popular 'Chana is Shallan's mom' theory is more like "yes, killing both her parents AND her spren wasn't bad enough... her mom was a literal Herald and when she killed her mom that kicked off the desolation". That fits perfectly in my book. Plus it's hard to argue with @alder24's logic in this thread. Very clear, straightforward, and well put.

Plus, how would Chana (pretending she is Shallan) be bonded to Testament if that was her daughter's spren, and she killed her daughter? Unless Ishar was there and transferred the bond or something? But then... why would he do that?... It just gets so messy.

Kesamijr · October 4, 2024

On 8/20/2024 at 8:43 AM, CognitiveShadow said:

Plus, how would Chana (pretending she is Shallan) be bonded to Testament if that was her daughter's spren, and she killed her daughter? Unless Ishar was there and transferred the bond or something? But then... why would he do that?... It just gets so messy.

Back here way late to say I agree with you. I think the Shallan in Chana theory is so cool tbh, but do feel a little bit like it's the type of extra super twist we "years long theorizers" want, not necessarily a regular book reader. When I first heard the "Shallan's mom is Chana" theory my mind was blown, I loved it. It's less thrilling now but that's just cuz I'm more used to it.

That said, I don't think the Testament bond disproves the theory. It actually is a necessary piece imo. The only way Chana could be a surge binder would be to be a Radiant. If the base-Shallan personality is actually Chana, I can see her killing her daughter by accident, breaking her spren bond in anger/grief at what she had done not realizing the consequences it would have as opposed to the spren bonds "back in her day."

The real hole for me is the

Spoiler

Herald dying the night of Gav's assassination

Cuz sure in that chapter we see

Spoiler

potentially a Herald (Stormfaker and Shallan is Chana Theory crossover episode) trying to get someone else to become a Herald to escape their bonds.

So potentially Chanrach figures out the way to escape her bond. Have a kid, transfer the Oathpact to that kid because the kid is Connected to it, kill said kid (accidentally or otherwise), the kid Herald goes to Braize as they're now in the Oathpact instead of you. Cause a desolation, and create a new personality to hide the fact that you did so with DID and Lightweaving. If anything actually the

Spoiler

substantiation reveal

slightly strengthens this theory.

All that was just mechanically how it could happen though, it all feels kind of convoluted to me when laid out like that. So either we'd need some big foreshadowing/change in the 5th book (which I haven't seen in the preview chapters) or it's not this and it's what we all expect, Shallan's mom is Chana. (Alt pitch cuz it's Shallan and there could always be something else: Shallan's DAD was Chana?????>?>)

Fun theorizing here y'all.

Dracnor · October 4, 2024

(Joke only :) Nah, Shallan is Chanarach's mom.

CognitiveShadow · October 4, 2024

9 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

That said, I don't think the Testament bond disproves the theory. It actually is a necessary piece imo. The only way Chana could be a surge binder would be to be a Radiant. If the base-Shallan personality is actually Chana, I can see her killing her daughter by accident, breaking her spren bond in anger/grief at what she had done not realizing the consequences it would have as opposed to the spren bonds "back in her day."

But don’t we know that the current bond with Shallan and Testament is broken in a way quite different from the radiants during the recreance? I thought her bond was not quite severed *because* she was a child who didn’t really know what she was doing so it wasn’t as much of a clean and intentional break.

You could say Chana put herself into her child’s headspace when she broke the bond, but still it’s just trying too hard to make it happen. The simplest explanation is the already surprising (to most people) plot twist that the mother Shallan killed was a herald which kicked off the desolation.

GudThymes · October 4, 2024

1 hour ago, CognitiveShadow said:

I thought her bond was not quite severed *because* she was a child who didn’t really know what she was doing so it wasn’t as much of a clean and intentional break.

It's different because Shallan is still alive and could fix the bond. The original radiants for all the deadeyes are dead and the original oaths cannot be resworn or re upheld.

I think Occam's Razor is honestly the best answer for why this theory doesn't make sense. Yes it's a book and Brando could do something else. But between the two theories of Chanarach being Shallans mom or Shallan herself; one is a lot simpler. I think most readers will be really put off if Shallan turns out to be Chana.

CognitiveShadow · October 4, 2024

1 hour ago, GudThymes said:

It's different because Shallan is still alive and could fix the bond. The original radiants for all the deadeyes are dead and the original oaths cannot be resworn or re upheld.

I think this quote from the chapter 1 of WaT explains exactly why the break is different. I'd also call out that Adolin is still able to help Maya recover, and he is not the original knight that broke her oaths. Pattern explains in detail here:

Quote

“Can I heal her?” Shallan asked. “Maybe if I… if I bond her again?”

“I think, after talking to Kelek…” Pattern said. “I think you are still bonded to her.”

“But…” Shallan glanced over her shoulder at him. “I broke the bond. That did this.”

“Some breaks are messy,” Pattern said. “A slice with a sharpened knife is clean; a slice with a dull one is ragged. Your break, done by a child without full Intent, is ragged. In some ways that makes it worse, but it does mean that some Connection between you two persists.”

“So…”

“So no,” Pattern said. “I do not think that merely saying Words once more would heal her.” His head pattern spun a little more slowly, as if he were contemplating something profound. “These numbers are… perplexing, Shallan. Strangely irrational, in a sequence I do not understand. I mean… I mean that we are walking on unfamiliar ground. A better metaphor for you. Yes. Unfamiliar ground. In the deep past, deadeyes did not exist.”

GudThymes · October 4, 2024

8 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

I think this quote from the chapter 1 of WaT explains exactly why the break is different. I'd also call out that Adolin is still able to help Maya recover, and he is not the original knight that broke her oaths. Pattern explains in detail here:

I think we are agreeing on almost the exact same thing. Though I would say that the reason for Shallans broken bond is because of her (lack of) Intent, not because she was a child. I think Pattern is bringing up her being a child to help explain how the break was different. Kaladin was an adult and he did not break his bond with Syl because of Intent, but conflicting oaths. Both stayed connected and we've seen a living radiant repair their Spren.

I believe that should Shallan die before healing Testament then Testament would essentially be in the same situation as the deadeyes despite the broken bond being different than the Recreance.

Shallan might be Chanarach?

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