Skybreakers combining ability (Gravitation + Division)

[Dofurion]

Context:
Regarding the Radiant orders, it seems that in addition to their two corresponding surges, they have an ability that takes use of both in order to function. An example of this is how the Windrunners outline their powers:

• Basic Lashing: Gravitation.
• Full Lashing: Adhesion.
• Inverse Lashing: Adhesion + Gravitation.

It is this last one that interests us. While we haven't seen evidence of such structured schemes in the other orders, it may well be because the other two orders of which we have more POV (Bonsmiths and Lightweavers) are... peculiar themselves.

Then we return to the title, Skybreakers, the order of Radiants with access to Gravitation and Division. From what we see of them in the books, they don't differ much from the Windrunners when using Gravitation and we haven't seen them use Division (Basically because they access it late), so what effects would using them at the same time have? My proposal is that it would be something similar (and opposite) to Reverse Lashing.

Theory:

Let's return to the basic mechanism of flight for Gravitation users, it consists of creating an illusory gravitational bond in a direction different from the real one. A radiant can distribute the bond strength 50%↑ and 50%↓ to create a 0-gravity effect (basically orienting ½ of its mass “up”), but it's not real 0-gravity.

Since Gravitation actually works by redirecting the orientation of the spiritual gravitational bond, what would happen if Division were used to completely sever that bond, de facto isolating the target from any gravitational interaction?… Exactly, a real 0-gravity.

What advantages does this Anti Lashing (in Windrunner terminology)? Well, in principle it is more efficient to levitate since you are not redistributing your gravitational orientation to multiple points, it is a single cutting action. And also its use for external objects would allow said objects to levitate without the need for direct contact (a limitation that we have seen in the books that the Windrunners have).

Closing:
Forgive any grammatical errors in the post, lately I've been writing on the phone since my PC is damaged so I can't translate comfortably.
I would also like to know what you think about it, since when I started thinking about it it seemed so simple to me that I am really very sure that this is perhaps how those two Surges actually work together.

Edited July 14, 2024 by Dofurion

[Through the Living Heir he/him]

1 hour ago, Dofurion said:

What advantages does this Anti Lashing (in Windrunner terminology)? Well, in principle it is more efficient to levitate since you are not redistributing your gravitational orientation to multiple points, it is a single cutting action. And also its use for external objects would allow said objects to levitate without the need for direct contact (a limitation that we have seen in the books that the Windrunners have).

Because a half lashing up done by the Windrunners can accomplish this, I find it more likely (and more interesting) that there is a sort of reverse reverse lashing which repels a given type of object. I do agree that Lightweavers and Bondsmiths being weird in other ways could mean that the other orders get a hybrid surge, which would be cool. In fact, Dalinar’s use of his surges to repair something (a statue, I think) may be an instance of this, and Shallan is generally not the best at soulcasting, which may mean she lacks access to this hybrid surge. 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Dofurion said:

It is this last one that interests us. While we haven't seen evidence of such structured schemes in the other orders, it may well be because the other two orders of which we have more POV (Bonsmiths and Lightweavers) are... peculiar themselves.

At least in the case of Shallan, she can Soulcast/change people into better versions of themselves. However it's very hard to say if that's because of Shallan's special circumstances, or if it's a natural ability of all Lightweavers and Shallan is just better at it than others.

Bondsmiths can repair things specifically by the use of Adhesion and Tension - we've seen Dalinar repair a temple and statues in the Thaylen city using this combination of powers. 

1 hour ago, Dofurion said:

Let's return to the basic mechanism of flight for Gravitation users, it consists of creating an illusory gravitational bond in a direction different from the real one. A radiant can distribute the bond strength 50%↑ and 50%↓ to create a 0-gravity effect (basically orienting ½ of its mass “up”), but it's not real 0-gravity.

What is a "real 0-gravity?" You're weightless, that's as much 0-gravity as it can be. 

1 hour ago, Dofurion said:

Since Gravitation actually works by redirecting the orientation of the spiritual gravitational bond, what would happen if Division were used to completely sever that bond, de facto isolating the target from any gravitational interaction?… Exactly, a real 0-gravity.

We have no indication that Skybreakers can access Connection powers, we know Bondsmiths are unique in this. Division, judging from its use and Ars Arcanum description, affects primarily Physical Realm.

1 hour ago, Dofurion said:

What advantages does this Anti Lashing (in Windrunner terminology)? Well, in principle it is more efficient to levitate since you are not redistributing your gravitational orientation to multiple points, it is a single cutting action. And also its use for external objects would allow said objects to levitate without the need for direct contact (a limitation that we have seen in the books that the Windrunners have).

Closing:
Forgive any grammatical errors in the post, lately I've been writing on the phone since my PC is damaged so I can't translate comfortably.
I would also like to know what you think about it, since when I started thinking about it it seemed so simple to me that I am really very sure that this is perhaps how those two Surges actually work together.

Soooo, it's basically useless? Normal half Lashing can do exactly the same thing and this idea offers nothing new. 

 

I think that a combination of Division and Gravitation is more simple than it sounds. What does reverse Lashing do? It binds things at a distance, a combination of both Adhesion and Gravitation. What might Division and Gravitation do when combined? Destroy things at a distance - lightning strike which divides skies. Many suspect that Skybreakers would be able to create lightning with their Surge of Division, I think it would manifest like this because Skybreakers combine Division with Gravitation. 

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Dofurion said:

While we haven't seen evidence of such structured schemes in the other orders, it may well be because the other two orders of which we have more POV (Bonsmiths and Lightweavers) are... peculiar themselves.

We see Shallan combine Transformation and Illumination at the end of Oathbringer (120):

Spoiler

They didn’t care that Shallan fed them illusions—they just wanted a battle. So she provided one, and somehow her illusions resisted when the enemy hit them. She thought maybe she was combining Soulcasting with her Lightweaving.

The enemy howled and sang, exulting in the fray. She painted the ground red and sprayed the enemy with blood that felt real. She serenaded them with the sounds of men screaming, dying, swords clashing and bones breaking.

She absorbed them in the false reality, and they drank it in; they feasted on it.

<snip>

“It is well, Shallan,” Jasnah said. “I merely wanted to see, as it seemed you were Soulcasting to give your illusions weight.

 

Edited July 14, 2024 by Treamayne
Reference

[TheSurvivorofDeath]

16 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

We see Shallan combine Transformation and Illumination at the end of Oathbringer (120):

  Reveal hidden contents

“It is well, Shallan,” Jasnah said. “I merely wanted to see, as it seemed you were Soulcasting to give your illusions weight.

 

Well there’s no evidence that’s what she was doing. Jasnah says Stormlight has mass in itself, and she wasn’t actually sure if Shallan was soulcasting her illusions. Besides, I don’t think the combined ability of Lightweavers would be something that basic. Just using one surge in the other surge, soulcasting an illusion, isn’t very creative. I suspect it’s something different that the Lightweavers can do, if they can do anything at all. 

Edited July 14, 2024 by TheSurvivorofDeath

[Treamayne]

51 minutes ago, TheSurvivorofDeath said:

Well there’s no evidence that’s what she was doing. Jasnah says Stormlight has mass in itself, and she wasn’t actually sure if Shallan was soulcasting her illusions. Besides, I don’t think the combined ability of Lightweavers would be something that basic. Just using one surge in the other surge, soulcasting an illusion, isn’t very creative. I suspect it’s something different that the Lightweavers can do, if they can do anything at all. 

It's okay, we are allowed to disagree.

I added the other half of the reference above, but Shallan herself also notes it was likely a combination of transformation and illumination - and that these illusions had a resistance to physical touch that none of her prior illusions had. 

However, I could not find a WoB about this that wasn't RAFO. 

Edited July 14, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[TheSurvivorofDeath]

3 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

It's okay, we are allowed to disagree.

I added the other half of the reference above, but Shallan herself also notes it was likely a combination of transformation and illumination - and that these illusions had a resistance to physical touch that none of her prior illusions had. 

However, I could not find a WoB about this that wasn't RAFO. 

Shallan has a general lack in soul casting, but it is possible she was combining her surges. Both these surges manifest in ways that aren’t as tangible as gravitation and adhesion, so it’s less visible if there is a combination between them. Lightweavers are different from other orders, so it’s not guaranteed they have this combined ability. There’s no guarantee that any orders have this combination, apart from Windrunners. Bondsmiths manifest something similar, with their repair of solid objects, but Bondsmiths are also a special case. I have no idea what combined ability might manifest from gravitation and division, if one were to manifest at all. It’s possible that the production of lightning is what they can do, but we haven’t seen that for sure. There’s still so much we don’t know about Surgebinding, so we can’t do anything but speculate.

[Treamayne]

9 minutes ago, TheSurvivorofDeath said:

There’s no guarantee that any orders have this combination, apart from Windrunners.

Agred

9 minutes ago, TheSurvivorofDeath said:

I have no idea what combined ability might manifest from gravitation and division

Agreed. I, personally, doubt there is a combined application - apart from whatever the Skybreaker Resonance will be. 

I also think that it is unlikely that every order has an application of their combined surges. For example - Transformation and Transportation (Elsecallers) or Transportation and Cohesion (Will Shapers). I think some surges will have an obvious cross (Reverse Lasjing), some will not and some will be ambiguous (Bondsmiths - we think that was Adhesion and Tension working together, but we don't know for certain). 

[Dofurion]

On 7/13/2024 at 5:52 PM, Dragonheir said:

Because a half lashing up done by the Windrunners can accomplish this, I find it more likely (and more interesting) that there is a sort of reverse reverse lashing which repels a given type of object.

I also considered that, I understand that you see the Division more as a repulsive force, but I see it more as an isolating force. Well I can't defend this point much since objectively we haven't seen much of this Surge in the books.

On 7/13/2024 at 6:14 PM, alder24 said:

Soooo, it's basically useless? Normal half Lashing can do exactly the same thing and this idea offers nothing new. 

Actually, I can think uses beyond the 2 that I explained in the initial publication:

• With this type of "Lashing" the stormlight would not end faster if you fought a Skimmer.
• Hypothetically, one could enter and leave the orbit of a black hole without setbacks or risk of spagetification. Although this may need to be reviewed by someone more versed in the subject such as @DrPhysics
• Unlike Inverse Lashing, this one would have no problems being used on objects close to the ground.
  • Although as a counterpart, it is true that it would not have much use for objects that are already in the air since it would not affect their inertia.

On 7/13/2024 at 6:14 PM, alder24 said:

I think that a combination of Division and Gravitation is more simple than it sounds. What does reverse Lashing do? It binds things at a distance, a combination of both Adhesion and Gravitation. What might Division and Gravitation do when combined? Destroy things at a distance - lightning strike which divides skies. Many suspect that Skybreakers would be able to create lightning with their Surge of Division, I think it would manifest like this because Skybreakers combine Division with Gravitation. 

I honestly wouldn't mind being wrong if this is the case, that actually sounds great. But something I do have to differ with is the issue of lightning.
If there is a Surge that can manifest rays, it should be Adhesion. Both for the theme of "the Surge of Binding and Oaths" and "the Surge of Pressure and Vacuum", to create lightning as they occur in nature this would be the best option. What's more, if my understanding is correct, Division should be able to prevent the rays from being created.

21 hours ago, TheSurvivorofDeath said:

Shallan has a general lack in soul casting, but it is possible she was combining her surges. Both these surges manifest in ways that aren’t as tangible as gravitation and adhesion, so it’s less visible if there is a combination between them. Lightweavers are different from other orders, so it’s not guaranteed they have this combined ability. There’s no guarantee that any orders have this combination, apart from Windrunners. Bondsmiths manifest something similar, with their repair of solid objects, but Bondsmiths are also a special case. I have no idea what combined ability might manifest from gravitation and division, if one were to manifest at all. It’s possible that the production of lightning is what they can do, but we haven’t seen that for sure. There’s still so much we don’t know about Surgebinding, so we can’t do anything but speculate.

21 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Agred

Agreed. I, personally, doubt there is a combined application - apart from whatever the Skybreaker Resonance will be. 

I also think that it is unlikely that every order has an application of their combined surges. For example - Transformation and Transportation (Elsecallers) or Transportation and Cohesion (Will Shapers). I think some surges will have an obvious cross (Reverse Lasjing), some will not and some will be ambiguous (Bondsmiths - we think that was Adhesion and Tension working together, but we don't know for certain). 

I never suggested that they didn't have abilities using their two Surges at the same time, simply that given the nature of said orders they didn't have as concise a scheme as the Windrunners (Lashings). And of the other orders we don't have enough POV to deny that they also have one.
We do not know if the issue of illusions with mass (like Shallan in OB or Hoid in YatNP) is due to using Illumination and Transformation at the same time or is it an advanced version of the same since Jasnah says that the light itself already has mass (I like to make the analogy between a silk shirt and a grandmother's knitted sweater, both dress but one weighs more than the other).
And in the case of the Bondsmiths we do not know if the repair of objects is Tension and Adhesion together or is the spiritual aspect of Tension.

We must also keep in mind that we have WoB that confirms that all orders have these mixed abilities, but in some cases they are not evident:

Quote

Overlord Jebus

The Knights Radiants have access to two Surges each, are the two Surges completely seperate or can they be combined together? Something like maybe allowing a Lightweaver to create a solid illusion by combining their Illumination Surge and their Soulcasting?

Essentially, do each of the Orders have a special talent only they can do that isn't available to any other Order?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they do, but it's not always directly obvious in a straightforward way, such as your example.

Overlord Jebus

Would the lashing system be an example of this? Full lashings apppear to be mostly Adhesion and and the basic lashing seems to be mostly Gravitational, does this mean Bondsmiths will be able do full lashings and Skybreakers can use partial and basic lashings?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 4, 2015)

 

Edited July 15, 2024 by Dofurion

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Dofurion said:

We must also keep in mind that we have WoB that confirms that all orders have these mixed abilities, but in some cases they are not evident:

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

The Knights Radiants have access to two Surges each, are the two Surges completely seperate or can they be combined together? Something like maybe allowing a Lightweaver to create a solid illusion by combining their Illumination Surge and their Soulcasting?

Essentially, do each of the Orders have a special talent only they can do that isn't available to any other Order?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they do, but it's not always directly obvious in a straightforward way, such as your example.

Overlord Jebus

Would the lashing system be an example of this? Full lashings apppear to be mostly Adhesion and and the basic lashing seems to be mostly Gravitational, does this mean Bondsmiths will be able do full lashings and Skybreakers can use partial and basic lashings?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 4, 2015)

 

Except, that WoB was confirmed to be about Resonance - which is not-quite-the-same as what causes a Reverse Lashing to be possible. 

Spoiler

Quote

Wetlander

In addition to the two abilities given by each Surge, does a Knight Radiant Order have a third blended ability, the interaction of its two given Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

Not specifically as phrased there, but each Order has quirks that are unique to it. They are magical quirks, but it's not necessarily a blend of the powers.

Wetlander

So Shallan's Memories is kind of a...

Brandon Sanderson

Is associated with her Order, yes.

Wetlander

It's not just because she had that wonderful ability, and Pattern came along and went, "Oh, I like this one!"

Brandon Sanderson

No that is not necessarily what attracted Pattern.

Firefight Seattle UBooks signing (Jan. 6, 2015)

Quote

Ray745

You have stated that each Knights Radiant Order gets their own unique ability, for lack of a better word, due to the combination of their Surges. For instance, you have stated this ability for the Windrunners is strength of squires. My question - is this due to the Nahel bond, or just inherent in the Surges combining. Would a non-Radiant get these abilities from the Honorblades, or would they be out of luck due to no Nahel bond?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! The unique abilities have more to do with the powers interacting, same as how Twinborn will often manifest some odd side effects of the powers interacting. But there are limitations. For example, Jezrien didn't actually have any squires, as none of the Heralds did.

General Reddit 2016 (Oct. 4, 2016)

Quote

Slowswift

Similar to how Lightweavers have, kind of really good memories. Do the Skybreakers have any special abilities for telling guilty and innocent people apart?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Good question.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

Quote

Argent

So, the Edgedancer's resonance, the Perk? I think you've called it resonance at some point, is that still accurate?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that totally works. The powers affect each other in interesting ways.

Argent

Right.

Brandon Sanderson

Um, so the thing about it is, calling it a Perk, that like saying--

Argent

It's a side effect right?

Brandon Sanderson

It's less a side effect-- It's like, when the powers merge, they are always slightly different. For instance, Lightweaving from a Truthwatcher is different from-- Slightly. There will be things. So, you're gonna see that they all have access to the Surges, but in combinations, they act a little differently from one another.

Questioner

So is the Edgedancer's resonance something to do with communication? Because we see Lift--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yeah we'll RAFO that.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

In which case, the Windrunner Resonance is "number of squires" and the Lightweaver resonance is mnemonic abilities.

Spoiler

Quote

Argent

There is a person on the forums who noticed that Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah seems to have a really powerful, kind of, geolocation thing going on, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on?

Brandon Sanderson

There is something supernatural going on. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at the scholar interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural, in the past, and some who said they definitely are. But many, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities.

Argent

So it's definitely tied to the Orders?

Brandon Sanderson

It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with Order, things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires... is abnormal for the Windrunners.

Argent

And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeeeaaaah... some Orders don't have them, [that] is the difference.

Argent

 But some have more?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

Quote

Questioner

If a Radiant uses an Honorblade or binds a second spren, could they get new abilities/resonances by having access to Surges that aren't usually combined?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they could. Indeed.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

 

[DrPhysics he/him]

3 hours ago, Dofurion said:

Hypothetically, one could enter and leave the orbit of a black hole without setbacks or risk of spagetification. Although this may need to be reviewed by someone more versed in the subject such as @DrPhysics

I won't weigh in on the rest of this thread (there aren't any clear answers and I can see you both being right), but I can weigh in on black holes.

 

Spaghettification is only a risk if you get really close to a black hole. Most of the black hole weirdness that we see only happens very close to a black hole. You could replace our sun with a black hole of equal mass and nothing would happen to earth's orbit. (We'd all freeze to death.due to lack of sunlight, but it would still take a year to go around and we wouldn't get any closer to the black hole) 

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Dofurion said:

I also considered that, I understand that you see the Division more as a repulsive force, but I see it more as an isolating force. Well I can't defend this point much since objectively we haven't seen much of this Surge in the books.

Division is a destructive force. We've seen Malata use it to destroy and turn a table to dust. She didn't repulse or isolate anything, she burned it. It's a force of decay. OB ch 107:

Quote

“You’re as frozen as the lot of them,” Malata said. She started glowing, Stormlight rising from her skin. She reached forward, whipping off her glove —safehand no less—and pressing it against the table.
Marks spread out from the point of contact, little swirls of blackness etching themselves into the wood. The scent of burning filled the air, but the flames didn’t persist if she didn’t will them to.
The swirls and lines extended across the tabletop, a masterwork of engraving accomplished in moments. Malata blew off the ash. The Surge she used, Division, caused objects to degrade, burn, or turn to dust.
It also worked on people

Ars Arcanum:

Quote

Division: The Surge of Destruction and Decay

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Adhesion allows you to bind things together.

Gravitation allows you to change the direction and strength of an object's gravitational attraction, including that of yourself, which essentially gives you the power of flight.

Division allows you to manipulate the rate an object decays.

Abrasion allows you to make objects, including yourself, frictionless.

Progression and Regrowth allows you to heal organisms and alter their growth.

Illumination allows you to create illusions.

Transformation allows you to soulcast objects from one material into another.

Transportation allows you to travel between the Cognitive and Physical realms.

Cohesion allows you to alter the shape of solid objects.

Tension allows you to alter the stiffness of objects.

Footnote: This information is only shown on the results pages of the Official Knights Radiant Order Quiz.
The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

 

14 hours ago, Dofurion said:

• With this type of "Lashing" the stormlight would not end faster if you fought a Skimmer.

Why? The stronger the Connection - the bigger is the force of gravity - the more Stormlight you need to break that Connection. The mass a Skimmer stored might be keyed to gravity, thus tapping it would allow a Skimmer to reintroduce this Connection, nullifying your Lashing. And let's be real, we're far from any potential fight between a Skimmer and a Radiant, introducing a skill just for that seems like a waste.

14 hours ago, Dofurion said:

Hypothetically, one could enter and leave the orbit of a black hole without setbacks or risk of spagetification. Although this may need to be reviewed by someone more versed in the subject such as @DrPhysics

Hypothetically yes, practically no. Once you enter the event horizon you would have to move faster than the speed of light to leave it - that's because its mass curves the spacetime so much that the escape velocity of a black hole is greater than the speed of light. If you somehow isolate yourself from gravity, you should be able to just move out as no acceleration is acting on you anymore. However such ridiculously strong gravity would require an equally ridiculous amount of Stormlight to break that Connection. 

Spaghettification depends on the size of a black hole. For smaller ones it will happen way outside of their event horizon, for bigger black holes it will happen deep beyond the event horizon. If you're near a black hole your biggest concern won't be spaghettification, but the accretion disk around it - a disc of debris and dust superheated by friction,  orbiting around and falling into a black hole, which generates huge amounts of deadly radiation - mainly X-rays. My advice is to not go anywhere near a black hole, even if you have Stormlight and fancy powers  

14 hours ago, Dofurion said:

Unlike Inverse Lashing, this one would have no problems being used on objects close to the ground.

• Although as a counterpart, it is true that it would not have much use for objects that are already in the air since it would not affect their inertia.

Disagree. Reverse Lashing has problems with affecting objects on the ground because they are strongly Connected to the ground. This should still cause you some problems with your type of Lashing. Ars Arcanum:

Quote

At its heart, this Lashing created a bubble around the object that imitated its spiritual link to the ground beneath it. As such, it was much harder for the Lashing to affect objects touching the ground, where their link to the planet was strongest. Objects falling or in flight were the easiest to influence. Other objects could be affected, but the Stormlight and skill required were much more substantial.

Anyway, it seems plausible that this kind of Lashing would require less Stormlight than a normal Lashing (just like Reverse Lashing), but the use of Stormlight would still change depending on how strong is the Connection you want to sever. I admit, it has some uses, mainly being potentially cheaper than a normal Lashing. But everything you can do with this kind of Lashing can be done by normal Lashing and that's why I see no point in this theory being true, it's just a senseless repetition. 

14 hours ago, Dofurion said:

I honestly wouldn't mind being wrong if this is the case, that actually sounds great. But something I do have to differ with is the issue of lightning.
If there is a Surge that can manifest rays, it should be Adhesion. Both for the theme of "the Surge of Binding and Oaths" and "the Surge of Pressure and Vacuum", to create lightning as they occur in nature this would be the best option. What's more, if my understanding is correct, Division should be able to prevent the rays from being created.

Why would Adhesion - the force of binding and pressure - be better for lightning? It's an electric discharge. And why would Division - the force of destruction and decay - prevent a massively destructive lightning from happening? Lightning can reach up to 30,000 K in temperature, it fits more as Division, which burns stuff and can manifest a flame if a Dustbringer wants it (quote above). Division splits chemical bonds between atoms, which are electromagnetic force, lightning is just electricity flowing through the air - which is electromagnetism as well. Lightning is caused by the same phenomena Division can affect. Thus in my opinion, Division would be the best Surge to create lightning.

Spoiler

Questioner

The Division Surge: does it actually split atoms or does it split the bonds of molecules?

Brandon Sanderson

It splits the bonds of molecules, it does not split atoms.

Questioner

That would be completely overpowered.

Brandon Sanderson

I have done an atom splitting magic originally in Dragonsteel. And wooow it was overpowered. So really, this is fiddling... You'll see what it does when I use it, but we'll not be splitting atoms. We're not creating nuclear reactio... or fission, so.

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

 

Edited July 15, 2024 by alder24

[Argenti he/him]

16 hours ago, Dofurion said:

If there is a Surge that can manifest rays, it should be Adhesion. Both for the theme of "the Surge of Binding and Oaths" and "the Surge of Pressure and Vacuum", to create lightning as they occur in nature this would be the best option. What's more, if my understanding is correct, Division should be able to prevent the rays from being created.

From what we've seen, adhesion sticks things together, whether it's physically or spiritually. Also, pressure and vacuum are largely irrelevant to the formation of lightning; while thunder is made via high-pressure air, thunder is a result of lighting, not the cause. Lighting is a cascade of energy turning the air into plasma, which is more or less fire.

[Dofurion]

On 7/15/2024 at 8:47 AM, alder24 said:

Why would Adhesion - the force of binding and pressure - be better for lightning? It's an electric discharge. And why would Division - the force of destruction and decay - prevent a massively destructive lightning from happening? Lightning can reach up to 30,000 K in temperature, it fits more as Division, which burns stuff and can manifest a flame if a Dustbringer wants it (quote above). Division splits chemical bonds between atoms, which are electromagnetic force, lightning is just electricity flowing through the air - which is electromagnetism as well. Lightning is caused by the same phenomena Division can affect. Thus in my opinion, Division would be the best Surge to create lightning.

On 7/15/2024 at 11:36 AM, Argenti said:

From what we've seen, adhesion sticks things together, whether it's physically or spiritually. Also, pressure and vacuum are largely irrelevant to the formation of lightning; while thunder is made via high-pressure air, thunder is a result of lighting, not the cause. Lighting is a cascade of energy turning the air into plasma, which is more or less fire.

To summarize my line of thought:
Storm clouds usually have three areas with differentiated electrical charge: The upper one with a positive charge [+], the middle one with a negative charge [-] and the lower one with a positive charge [+]
Due to the electromagnetic interactions inherent to the cloud, the ground directly beneath it acquires a positive charge [+] and the surroundings a negative charge [-]

Most lightning strikes are initiated when the charge difference between the middle and lower part of the cloud becomes high enough that the air loses its 'insulating' capacity and a channel is formed through which the charges can move and head towards the ground. (These channels are called "Stepped Loaders")
At a given moment, as the negatively charged channels get closer, positively charged channels can emerge (known as "Streamers" and when the connection is completed the negative charge [-] will pass so quickly to the ground that the channel heats up to 30,000° (Here is the lightning)

You will understand after this why I think that Adhesion is the appropriate Surge for the manifestation of rays. Since everything in its formation is defined by the creation of a natural electric circuit. And that for me falls into the "Bond" category.

 

Edited July 17, 2024 by Dofurion

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Dofurion said:

To summarize my line of thought:
Storm clouds usually have three areas with differentiated electrical charge: The upper one with a positive charge [+], the middle one with a negative charge [-] and the lower one with a positive charge [+]
Due to the electromagnetic interactions inherent to the cloud, the ground directly beneath it acquires a positive charge [+] and the surroundings a negative charge [-]

Most lightning strikes are initiated when the charge difference between the middle and lower part of the cloud becomes high enough that the air loses its 'insulating' capacity and a channel is formed through which the charges can move and head towards the ground. (These channels are called "Stepped Loaders")
At a given moment, as the negatively charged channels get closer, positively charged channels can emerge (known as "Streamers" and when the connection is completed the negative charge [-] will pass so quickly to the ground that the channel heats up to 30,000° (Here is the lightning)

You will understand after this why I think that Adhesion is the appropriate Surge for the manifestation of rays. Since everything in its formation is defined by the creation of a natural electric circuit. And that for me falls into the "Bond" category.

Yes, storms work like that, but you've missed what gives them electric charge - friction. It's not pressure, it's friction between particles and molecules that creates the charge difference. Take a ruler and start rubbing it on your clothes, or rub your socks on a carpet and you are making static electricity with it. The same mechanism charges clouds during a thunderstorm. That means that Abrasion can more directly create lighting than Adhesion. Sure, if you want, you can use Adhesion to indirectly create lightning by creating a proper environment - but it doesn't control lightning, it doesn't create lightning. You're just using pressure to make particles rub against each other and create a charge difference, which will cause lightning. That's just making lightning with extra steps. Even Abrasion won't directly create lightning, you’re just changing the way friction works and with that make a better environment for lightning to appear. A Surge that allows you to manipulate electric charge directly is the one Surge that will spawn lightning at will.

[Argenti he/him]

22 hours ago, Dofurion said:

To summarize my line of thought:
Storm clouds usually have three areas with differentiated electrical charge: The upper one with a positive charge [+], the middle one with a negative charge [-] and the lower one with a positive charge [+]
Due to the electromagnetic interactions inherent to the cloud, the ground directly beneath it acquires a positive charge [+] and the surroundings a negative charge [-]

Most lightning strikes are initiated when the charge difference between the middle and lower part of the cloud becomes high enough that the air loses its 'insulating' capacity and a channel is formed through which the charges can move and head towards the ground. (These channels are called "Stepped Loaders")
At a given moment, as the negatively charged channels get closer, positively charged channels can emerge (known as "Streamers" and when the connection is completed the negative charge [-] will pass so quickly to the ground that the channel heats up to 30,000° (Here is the lightning)

You will understand after this why I think that Adhesion is the appropriate Surge for the manifestation of rays. Since everything in its formation is defined by the creation of a natural electric circuit. And that for me falls into the "Bond" category.

 

I suppose you could call lighting from the sky, but only when a large charge is already present. Less lighting blast, more lighting rod. As Alder said, friction is the force that generates lighting, and you can't just make a charge from nothing, at least not by the power of pressure. 

[Hare_Mettle he/him]

I always thought that Windrunners' gravity plus adhesion made a magnetic like attraction to objects. So, to me, the opposite of that would be turning the magnets around so they repel each other. So if say, a soldier on the field loses their blade or spear, a Skybreaker paints the weapon with division and gravity, then the weapon will be impossible to grab by the soldier because they act like two opposing forces of a magnet. 

[AlastorBM He]

I just have to say that I am more fascinated with these talks every day.

Usually the idea that comes to mind when I think of sky breakers using their powers together is simple, like bombers. When they use their powers together I think it results in using division, but from a distance. This was mentioned earlier in the post, I need to read a little more.
Keeping that in mind, we don't know as much about division as we do about gravitation, for example. What's more, can it be used naturally at a distance? And the dustbringers, can they do this or not? 

I really don't know, if anyone can clarify my doubt I would appreciate it!