Unite them... and the ending of Stormlight

[discord=more_preservation]

OK, so I just finished up with the Sunlit Man, and have been thinking about what this means for Stormlight, specifically its ending. From the WoB, we know that the entire ending is somewhere in Books 1-2. One theory that comes to mind is that all three shards on Roshar are going to unite. In other words, Dalinar's visions to "unite them" mean to unite the three shards. That includes uniting the splintered parts of Honor. Does Dalinar take up the three shards? I, of course, do not know if this is actually the case, but thought I'd throw this out here for discussion. Here are some reasons this might be the case:

Spoiler

1. Dalinar has connections with all three shards. He was manipulated by Odium in battle (as seen in Oathbringer), was helped by Cultivation (having lost his memory of killing his wife; also seen in Oathbringer), and is bonded to the Stormfather (the remnants of Honor). 

2. Sigzil uses the Dawnshard to do something, we don't know exactly what. But, we know Hoid used the Dawnshard to help splinter Adonalsium. My thoughts are that Sigzil used the Dawnshard to splinter one or two of the Shards, or a combination of shards (e.g., the "War Shard" after Odium and the splinters of Honor fuse, or Cultivation if she is aligned with Todium). 

 a. Note that when Sigzil uses the Dawnshard, he is no longer bonded with his Honor Spren (that we know of). Splinters of Honor at that time maybe already came back together, unbonding the Windrunners?

3. A deathrattle states: "Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns." Three of sixteen = the shards of Odium, Cultivation, and Honor. The "Broken One" will be vessel of whoever takes up the combined shard they form. Maybe Kaladin? Maybe Dalinar, who gets broken by Odium in Book 5? It's anyone's guess who the vessel will be.

a. It will probably be whoever is connected to this deathrattle: "Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us." Whoever says/experiences this will eventually take up the three shards.

 

This will help lead to the Roshar/Scadrial conflict that Sanderson seems to be setting up:

Spoiler

On one hand, you have a 3 shard system in Roshar battling a two shard system in Scadrial. This might lead Harmony to actually work with someone unexpected: Autonomy. Autonomy could give direction to the two shards that are always in constant opposition. Autonomy seems to respect Sazed a bit more after Era 2. 

Feel free to disagree. I'm not convinced of this theory. I'd just like to know what you all think. Of course, this kind of seems like a rehash of Mistborn Era 1, so it probably won't go in this direction. But who knows...?

Edited April 15 by discord=more_preservation
Deleted a sentence that made no sense: "Maybe even Harmony somehow working with Harmony?"

[alder24]

10 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

OK, so I just finished up with the Sunlit Man, and have been thinking about what this means for Stormlight, specifically its ending.

This is the Stormlight Archive forum only, spoilers from other books like TSM should not be discussed here, but in the Cosmere Discussion sub-forum. I will ask mods to move it there for you.

10 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

 

Spoiler

2. Sigzil uses the Dawnshard to do something, we don't know exactly what. But, we know Hoid used the Dawnshard to help splinter Adonalsium. My thoughts are that Sigzil used the Dawnshard to splinter one or two of the Shards, or a combination of shards (e.g., the "War Shard" after Odium and the splinters of Honor fuse, or Cultivation if she is aligned with Todium). 

 a. Note that when Sigzil uses the Dawnshard, he is no longer bonded with his Honor Spren (that we know of). Splinters of Honor at that time maybe already came back together, unbonding the Windrunners?

 

TSM:

Spoiler

How I see the timeline is that Sig took up the Dawnshard when he was already bondless and when he was 38 years old (he doesn't look that old in RoW), "saved Hoid, but not Cosmere," left Roshar, bonded with Aux when they met in CR, decades later the Dawnshard was threatened and used Aux as a fuel source to self-protect. 

Because both Sig and Hoid were quite clear on what happened after Sig became the Danwshard - he saved Hoid - I don't think Sig used Dawnshard to do something what you propose. This is too impactful and merging Odium with Honor under Dalinar’s mind would actually save Cosmere. But all Sig did was save Hoid - presumably from consequences of breaking oaths he made by interfering in Odium’s affairs, which left him without protection.

Moreover Sig became disillusioned with the idea of Honor - and that's what I think is the spoiler for SA5, not that Sig will become a Dawnshard and will do something dramatic, but he will make some mistake as the leader of Windrunners and break his bond with his Honorspren, after he realized Honor is a lie. Maybe even many Windrunners will follow him. He will pick up the Dawnshard much later when he will become 38 years old - right now he feels more like in his 20s, but in SA it was never stated how old he is. Therefore I don't believe Sig using his Dawnshard will have anything to do with Honor, Dalinar, or merging Shards. 

TSM ch 10:

Quote

You may have saved the cosmere.”
“I absolutely did not save the cosmere,” Nomad snapped, finding a pebble in his pocket and throwing it through Wit’s head. The image rippled and then restored. “I might have saved you though.”
“Same difference.”
“It’s not,” Nomad said. “It’s really not.” He stepped closer to Wit’s projection. “If they catch me, they’ll be able to connect the Dawnshard to you. And then they’ll be on your tail.”
[...]
“Thought I did,” he said. “Then my oaths ended, and I realized that destinations really are important, Wit. They are. No matter what we say.”

TSM ch 6:

Quote

Aux might have started their relationship hesitant to show his true self, but after decades together, his expressiveness had grown and grown. Until that day

TSM ch 11:

Quote

He’d been thirty-eight when time had finally stopped tracking him, his soul bending under the Dawnshard’s influence—and that was by his planet’s accounting, which had longer years than most.

TSM ch 20:

Quote

They’d spent years together with the potential lurking there, unseen. Then, in a moment of need, he’d unconsciously reached out for any energy source he could access. The Dawnshard had found Auxiliary, a being of Investiture.
It had turned Aux’s very substance into power to fuel Nomad’s abilities.
The Dawnshard—the weapon—protected itself. No matter what. No matter who it killed. Nomad had barely been able to stop himself before burning the entirety of Auxiliary’s soul away in a moment of supercharged power.

TSM ch 33:

Quote

“Let’s just say that leadership didn’t agree with me.”

TSM ch 40:

Quote

He clasped his hands behind his back, remembering what it felt like to wear that uniform, bear that armor, carry those oaths. “I had to ask myself, once it was all done, if honor was a sham. If it was a ruse used to make men kill one another—to let them pretend there was a purpose to it. If that concept—the very idea of an honorable soldier—was not the most pernicious evil that had ever blighted the cosmere.”

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

For those who are wondering, this does take place moderately far into the Cosmere’s future. This is not a spoiler for Stormlight 5, in that I intend it to be read before Stormlight 5. But you will find out in Stormlight 5 what caused this whole thing to happen. If it’s a spoiler, it’s not for much in the future of Stormlight. The division point will happen pretty soon here. And this is Sigzil’s story, here called Nomad. He will come out of this book with a different name. And he has a role to play in the future of the Cosmere.

[...]

Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 24, 2022)

 

 

10 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

3. A deathrattle states: "Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns." Three of sixteen = the shards of Odium, Cultivation, and Honor. The "Broken One" will be vessel of whoever takes up the combined shard they form. Maybe Kaladin? Maybe Dalinar, who gets broken by Odium in Book 5? It's anyone's guess who the vessel will be.

Well, Honor is now broken. Or it's all about Odium, as Odium is damaged too because of his fights. You don't have to unite all Shards to create the Broken One (how would that be the Broken One), just unite Honor's broken pieces or Ascend to some of them, like maybe what Dalinar did in OB. Moreover Dalinar alone can unite and merge Shards together as a Bondsmith, he doesn't need any Dawnshards for that:

Spoiler

CephandriusTW

Stormfather once said that "Three of sixteen ruled but now the Broken One reigns" [my note: that was indeed a Death Rattle, not the Stormfather's words] and that "Odium reigns" [my note: those are the Stormfather's words from WoK ch 46], is not crazy to think that Odium is the Broken One. My question is, could be possible to fuse Odium's shard (without Rayse) with the remanents of Honor (his Cognitive Shadow) in order to create a new whole Shard? Could Dalinar do something like that? He would be uniting them (two Shards, one of them supposed to be the Broken One and the other that we actually now is a bit broken).

Brandon Sanderson

[That] is possible

General Reddit 2020 (June 18, 2020)

 

Anyway I think it's possible for someone to unite all 3 Shards of Roshar, Cosmere might aim in that direction IF Adonalsium is ever to be restored. However I think it's more likely that just Odium and Honor will merge without merging with Cultivation. To Ascend to a Shard one has to have a very strong Connection to it and deep understanding of its nature - just because Dalinar was touched by Cultivation doesn't mean he has this strong Connection and needed understanding of what Cultivation represents. I doubt he would be able to Ascend to that Shard. But in my opinion he is well fitted to both Odium and Honor.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

I've moved this thread to the Cosmere forum as it contains spoilers for a lot more than just Stormlight Archive.

[Forts Board]

People have definitely done a lot of theorizing this direction, but i personally would be dissapointed if Brandon decided to make Honor-Cultivation-Odium shard. I would not be dissapointed if they found a way to work together.

I think it is more likely that many unwilling people will be trapped in a cosmere war between Odium and Discord, and be forced to turn on their masters to gain freedom. 

[The Stick]

I am very strongly of the opinion that there is a good chance that Szeth may indeed Ascend to Honor. When you think about it, Szeth's entire arc is based on his total obedience to his Oathstone and his definition to what honor is. While this may not necessarily be the definition the power likes the most, Szeth is incredibly dedicated to his ideal of Honor, seeing as he swore to Dalinar in hopes of finding Honor. 

I think that a potential hint Brandon could have given is Szeth's very specific references to himself in his chapters across the books. This ends in him naming himself Szeth-son-Honor, by RoW. We know that book 5 is the Szeth book, and he will almost certainly at least hit the fourth Sky breaker Ideal, maybe even the fifth. I merely think that is is possible that Dalinar would intentionally choose not to Ascend. This could also fulfill Brandon's saying the ending is hidden in the first two books, which could reference Szeth being told by Gavilar to find the most important words a man could say.

[alder24]

10 hours ago, The Stick said:

I am very strongly of the opinion that there is a good chance that Szeth may indeed Ascend to Honor. When you think about it, Szeth's entire arc is based on his total obedience to his Oathstone and his definition to what honor is. While this may not necessarily be the definition the power likes the most, Szeth is incredibly dedicated to his ideal of Honor, seeing as he swore to Dalinar in hopes of finding Honor. 

I think Szeth as Honor might be one of the most terrifying Honor's Vessels you can imagine. Blind obedience and mental instability combined with severe punishment for every crime committed is not a good interpretation of Honor. But Szeth is on his way to change as a Skybreaker so he might be able to better judge what's good or bad. Yet I still can't imagine Szeth-Honor as a good ending. He might be even more dangerous than Odium. Keep in mind, Vessels do impact the way Shardic intent is manifested, Szeth will have a massive influence over what Honor is about.

[discord=more_preservation]

10 hours ago, The Stick said:

I am very strongly of the opinion that there is a good chance that Szeth may indeed Ascend to Honor. When you think about it, Szeth's entire arc is based on his total obedience to his Oathstone and his definition to what honor is. While this may not necessarily be the definition the power likes the most, Szeth is incredibly dedicated to his ideal of Honor, seeing as he swore to Dalinar in hopes of finding Honor. 

I think that a potential hint Brandon could have given is Szeth's very specific references to himself in his chapters across the books. This ends in him naming himself Szeth-son-Honor, by RoW. We know that book 5 is the Szeth book, and he will almost certainly at least hit the fourth Sky breaker Ideal, maybe even the fifth. I merely think that is is possible that Dalinar would intentionally choose not to Ascend. This could also fulfill Brandon's saying the ending is hidden in the first two books, which could reference Szeth being told by Gavilar to find the most important words a man could say.

This is an interesting idea. But I do not think Szeth would ascend to honor. Don't Honorspren really dislike Highspren? One idea I have for this is because the Highspren use rules and an excuse to do anything, and the Honorspren (the spren most connected to Honor) don't see anything particularly honorable about that, other than an excuse to commit injustices a lot of times. Szeth was able to become a Skybreaker because of his devotion to the law as he saw it, which made him do many dishonorable things, and he is now bonded to a highspren.

 

23 hours ago, alder24 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

How I see the timeline is that Sig took up the Dawnshard when he was already bondless and when he was 38 years old (he doesn't look that old in RoW), "saved Hoid, but not Cosmere," left Roshar, bonded with Aux when they met in CR, decades later the Dawnshard was threatened and used Aux as a fuel source to self-protect. 

Because both Sig and Hoid were quite clear on what happened after Sig became the Danwshard - he saved Hoid - I don't think Sig used Dawnshard to do something what you propose. This is too impactful and merging Odium with Honor under Dalinar’s mind would actually save Cosmere. But all Sig did was save Hoid - presumably from consequences of breaking oaths he made by interfering in Odium’s affairs, which left him without protection.

Moreover Sig became disillusioned with the idea of Honor - and that's what I think is the spoiler for SA5, not that Sig will become a Dawnshard and will do something dramatic, but he will make some mistake as the leader of Windrunners and break his bond with his Honorspren, after he realized Honor is a lie. Maybe even many Windrunners will follow him. He will pick up the Dawnshard much later when he will become 38 years old - right now he feels more like in his 20s, but in SA it was never stated how old he is. Therefore I don't believe Sig using his Dawnshard will have anything to do with Honor, Dalinar, or merging Shards. 

TSM ch 10:

TSM ch 6:

TSM ch 11:

TSM ch 20:

TSM ch 33:

TSM ch 40:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

For those who are wondering, this does take place moderately far into the Cosmere’s future. This is not a spoiler for Stormlight 5, in that I intend it to be read before Stormlight 5. But you will find out in Stormlight 5 what caused this whole thing to happen. If it’s a spoiler, it’s not for much in the future of Stormlight. The division point will happen pretty soon here. And this is Sigzil’s story, here called Nomad. He will come out of this book with a different name. And he has a role to play in the future of the Cosmere.

[...]

Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 24, 2022)

 

 

Well, Honor is now broken. Or it's all about Odium, as Odium is damaged too because of his fights. You don't have to unite all Shards to create the Broken One (how would that be the Broken One), just unite Honor's broken pieces or Ascend to some of them, like maybe what Dalinar did in OB. Moreover Dalinar alone can unite and merge Shards together as a Bondsmith, he doesn't need any Dawnshards for that:

  Hide contents

CephandriusTW

Stormfather once said that "Three of sixteen ruled but now the Broken One reigns" [my note: that was indeed a Death Rattle, not the Stormfather's words] and that "Odium reigns" [my note: those are the Stormfather's words from WoK ch 46], is not crazy to think that Odium is the Broken One. My question is, could be possible to fuse Odium's shard (without Rayse) with the remanents of Honor (his Cognitive Shadow) in order to create a new whole Shard? Could Dalinar do something like that? He would be uniting them (two Shards, one of them supposed to be the Broken One and the other that we actually now is a bit broken).

Brandon Sanderson

[That] is possible

General Reddit 2020 (June 18, 2020)

 

Anyway I think it's possible for someone to unite all 3 Shards of Roshar, Cosmere might aim in that direction IF Adonalsium is ever to be restored. However I think it's more likely that just Odium and Honor will merge without merging with Cultivation. To Ascend to a Shard one has to have a very strong Connection to it and deep understanding of its nature - just because Dalinar was touched by Cultivation doesn't mean he has this strong Connection and needed understanding of what Cultivation represents. I doubt he would be able to Ascend to that Shard. But in my opinion he is well fitted to both Odium and Honor.

Thanks for having this moved to the correct forum! The thing that makes me think that Odium is not the Broken one is the deathrattle that says:

 

Quote

"Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us."

I don't see Todium saying this, to be honest. I could see Kaladin possibly saying this. But I don't know. I have a suspicion that whoever says this will eventually be the one who rules based on the other deathrattle. I also feel that the entire arc of the cosmere is moving towards Adonalsium being restored*, with the shards on Roshar uniting, and then all the remaining vessels trying to unite with as many other shards as possible. And a distinct possibility that Hoid is trying to manipulate the vessels to do this for some reason (selfishly to take the combined shards for himself or as a way of fixing what he did in the past). 

 

*or at least the shards starting to unite again; each shard is sort of crazy on its own and only together would they do things correctly

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, discord=more_preservation said:

Don't Honorspren really dislike Highspren? One idea I have for this is because the Highspren use rules and an excuse to do anything, and the Honorspren (the spren most connected to Honor)

That is only THEIR claim that Honorspren are the closest to Honor. Highspren would disagree, claiming otherwise. It's not a fact that Honorspren are the most Connected to Honor. They all came from both Honor and Cultivation. Determining who's the closest to Honor is subjective as even spren can change and modern Honorspren do not act Honorable at all (as seen by Sekeir and others in the Lasting Integrity for example).

Spoiler

[...]

Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

16 minutes ago, discord=more_preservation said:

The thing that makes me think that Odium is not the Broken one is the deathrattle that says:

Quote

"Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us."

I don't see Todium saying this, to be honest. I could see Kaladin possibly saying this.

Not every time the word "broken" appears it has to be about the Broken One. Personally I think this Death Rattle is predicting the ending of the SA 5 and the Contest of Champions - Odium wins or forces Dalinar to break the terms, Stormfather is deadeyed, Highstorms ends and no Stormlight is given to Roshar (there are a few other Death Rattles which fits this theory). But anyways, if the Broken One is all 3 Shards united, then if this Death Rattle also refers to that entity, who in Cosmere would be able to beat them?? This Death Rattles talks about reasons for being broken - the storm never stops, all have died and ended, he has won. It doesn't seem to be about recombining all 3 Shards from the perspective of the new Vessel/Broken One. The core characteristic of most of Brandon's characters is that they are all broken - Syl even said it, all Radiants were broken. Both Heralds and Fused are broken too. This word is too broadly used to pinpoint it specifically to the Broken One. Everyone can say "I'm broken."

[The Stick]

I do think though that setting Szeth up as Honor could be a genius move for Brandon, because Szeth is so unpredictable. It basically gives the power of Honor to a total lunatic, which is super dangerous for the Cosmere as a whole, and could even make Szeth a major antagonist. Him and Todium would have an amazing back 5 conflict, considering all of their tensions. 

And don't forget, Szeth has Nightblood to assassinate other Vessels.

[discord=more_preservation]

On 4/16/2024 at 9:02 AM, alder24 said:

That is only THEIR claim that Honorspren are the closest to Honor. Highspren would disagree, claiming otherwise. It's not a fact that Honorspren are the most Connected to Honor. They all came from both Honor and Cultivation. Determining who's the closest to Honor is subjective as even spren can change and modern Honorspren do not act Honorable at all (as seen by Sekeir and others in the Lasting Integrity for example).

  Reveal hidden contents

[...]

Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

Not every time the word "broken" appears it has to be about the Broken One. Personally I think this Death Rattle is predicting the ending of the SA 5 and the Contest of Champions - Odium wins or forces Dalinar to break the terms, Stormfather is deadeyed, Highstorms ends and no Stormlight is given to Roshar (there are a few other Death Rattles which fits this theory). But anyways, if the Broken One is all 3 Shards united, then if this Death Rattle also refers to that entity, who in Cosmere would be able to beat them?? This Death Rattles talks about reasons for being broken - the storm never stops, all have died and ended, he has won. It doesn't seem to be about recombining all 3 Shards from the perspective of the new Vessel/Broken One. The core characteristic of most of Brandon's characters is that they are all broken - Syl even said it, all Radiants were broken. Both Heralds and Fused are broken too. This word is too broadly used to pinpoint it specifically to the Broken One. Everyone can say "I'm broken."

These are good counterpoints. Thank you!

 

On 4/16/2024 at 11:43 AM, The Stick said:

I do think though that setting Szeth up as Honor could be a genius move for Brandon, because Szeth is so unpredictable. It basically gives the power of Honor to a total lunatic, which is super dangerous for the Cosmere as a whole, and could even make Szeth a major antagonist. Him and Todium would have an amazing back 5 conflict, considering all of their tensions. 

And don't forget, Szeth has Nightblood to assassinate other Vessels.

This would be really interesting tbh. Thanks for sharing!

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

On 4/16/2024 at 2:49 AM, The Stick said:

I am very strongly of the opinion that there is a good chance that Szeth may indeed Ascend to Honor. When you think about it, Szeth's entire arc is based on his total obedience to his Oathstone and his definition to what honor is. While this may not necessarily be the definition the power likes the most, Szeth is incredibly dedicated to his ideal of Honor, seeing as he swore to Dalinar in hopes of finding Honor. 

I think that a potential hint Brandon could have given is Szeth's very specific references to himself in his chapters across the books. This ends in him naming himself Szeth-son-Honor, by RoW. We know that book 5 is the Szeth book, and he will almost certainly at least hit the fourth Sky breaker Ideal, maybe even the fifth. I merely think that is is possible that Dalinar would intentionally choose not to Ascend. This could also fulfill Brandon's saying the ending is hidden in the first two books, which could reference Szeth being told by Gavilar to find the most important words a man could say.

That is a very terrifying and highly compelling theory I hadn't considered before. I doubt that this is where Brandon is heading, but I would very much love to read a version of the series where this happens. Szeth-Honor and Vargo-Odium is such a dramatic way to end the series, perhaps not as dramatic as Fused Dalinar and a Deadeyed Stormfather, but still very intriguing and mildly horrifying, since they both seem to be the absolute worst candidates to be given Shards in terms of the safety of the inhabitants of the Cosmere