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If Moash dies in SA5..


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Will that be enough that we can finally stop talking about him? Love him, hate him, or just want to argue about him forever and a day...if Brandon kills him off, will we finally (I suppose there would be discussion about his death at the time, I'll concede that) be able to stop talking about him? Or, 10-20 years from now, will people still be bringing up Moash to gauge other character's actions like people still invoke hitler (ie Well they're no Moash! At least they didn't blah blah blah or It's not the same thing when they do it because blah blah blah, etc)?

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1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Will that be enough that we can finally stop talking about him? Love him, hate him, or just want to argue about him forever and a day...if Brandon kills him off, will we finally (I suppose there would be discussion about his death at the time, I'll concede that) be able to stop talking about him? Or, 10-20 years from now, will people still be bringing up Moash to gauge other character's actions like people still invoke hitler (ie Well they're no Moash! At least they didn't blah blah blah or It's not the same thing when they do it because blah blah blah, etc)?

I doubt it'll ever die off.

If there are adaptations, even if the book discussions have calmed down, they'll bring it back fully.

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I am really hoping Moash becomes a herald, not only because I love redemption arcs, but him getting daily hooks dug into his flesh sounds like a great form of penance haha. I know resetting the Oath pact doesn't actually do anything. No need to tell Moash though 😉

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If Moash died I'd have a lot of complaints and I do not plan on forgetting them. 😛 His handling has been an absolute travesty so far, in my opinion. I guess we'll see if SA5 can save it at all... 

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17 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Will that be enough that we can finally stop talking about him? Love him, hate him, or just want to argue about him forever and a day...if Brandon kills him off, will we finally (I suppose there would be discussion about his death at the time, I'll concede that) be able to stop talking about him? Or, 10-20 years from now, will people still be bringing up Moash to gauge other character's actions like people still invoke hitler (ie Well they're no Moash! At least they didn't blah blah blah or It's not the same thing when they do it because blah blah blah, etc)?

No, it will never end. We will have topics like "did Moash deserve all this hate" or "death was too merciful for Moash." He will always engage our emotions and hate him or love him, that's a sign of a storming well-written character. That's why he deserves to be talked about.

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18 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Will that be enough that we can finally stop talking about him? Love him, hate him, or just want to argue about him forever and a day...if Brandon kills him off, will we finally (I suppose there would be discussion about his death at the time, I'll concede that) be able to stop talking about him? Or, 10-20 years from now, will people still be bringing up Moash to gauge other character's actions like people still invoke hitler (ie Well they're no Moash! At least they didn't blah blah blah or It's not the same thing when they do it because blah blah blah, etc)?

Nope. It won't. You're thinking too small scale, 10-20 years is waaay too short. I don't think I've seen the "newest member" statistic for 17th Shard ever go beyond a week, at least while I've been paying attention. Even accounting for bots, we still have new people introducing themselves all the time. As new generations grow up and are handed the Cosmere in the same way that mine was handed Lord of the Rings, you'll have a new teenager or adult who reads the books for the first time, and because the Stormlight Archive books are gigantic, we'll get someone who just has to find someone to talk about what they are reading to someone, about Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, and yes, Moash. There's a big enough following and community, that while it will fade after Brandon passes away and no new books are released (assuming we don't find a trunk with 200 Secret-Secret Projects in his closet), there will still be new readers who pick up a book from a library, friend, sibling, uncle, mother's bookshelf and discover the Cosmere (possibly after the leatherbound is wrenched from their hands and the loaner copy is thrust in to replace it). The Lord of the Rings and Wheel of Time still have active fan sites decades after the passing of Tolkien and Jordan, and given the size of 17th Shard, I expect this site will one day have a changing of the guard. That is assuming Chaos and the others want their legacy to live on after they get old enough that they have to consider if they are able to manage it. 

So buckle down, and get used to it. New readers who complain about Moash will be coming here long after you or I are done here at 17th Shard, one way or another, just like people who ask what Tom Bombadil is, or why eagles couldn't have just carried Frodo and friends to Mount Doom (no one get started, this isn't the place, this is just to prove a point). Just smile and move on unless you feel like there's something worth discussing and elaborating on - just like with the "who would win" threads that pop up every few months to a year. Moash hate, at least for readers just getting through the first half of SA, will outlive you.

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20 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Will that be enough that we can finally stop talking about him? Love him, hate him, or just want to argue about him forever and a day...if Brandon kills him off, will we finally (I suppose there would be discussion about his death at the time, I'll concede that) be able to stop talking about him? Or, 10-20 years from now, will people still be bringing up Moash to gauge other character's actions like people still invoke hitler (ie Well they're no Moash! At least they didn't blah blah blah or It's not the same thing when they do it because blah blah blah, etc)?

Because the solution to "Too many Moash threads" is a new Moash thread?

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

That is assuming Chaos and the others want their legacy to live on after they get old enough that they have to consider if they are able to manage it. 

Chaos is obviously Returned and will always be in charge. . . 

 

More seriously though, as @alder24 and @Duxredux have said, each Fandom has those threads that always pop-up over and over. The best you can hope for is something like this post compiling the references and that at least some of the new fans will find it and get their questions answered by reading discussions in-progress and/or completed (or at least having a place to which you can point them for answers/ideas/opinions). 

13 hours ago, AonEne said:

His handling has been an absolute travesty so far, in my opinion

Have you yet discussed why you think this way in any of the many many threads? (A quick search did not find any posts with Moash + Travesty, except this post).

Edited by Treamayne
SPAG
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On 3/30/2024 at 6:20 AM, alder24 said:

No, it will never end. We will have topics like "did Moash deserve all this hate" or "death was too merciful for Moash." He will always engage our emotions and hate him or love him, that's a sign of a storming well-written character. That's why he deserves to be talked about.

Disagree on the well-written part, personally. 

On 3/30/2024 at 7:13 AM, Duxredux said:

That is assuming Chaos and the others want their legacy to live on after they get old enough that they have to consider if they are able to manage it. 

Bold of you to assume I'm not immortal :P 

On 3/30/2024 at 8:40 AM, Treamayne said:

Have you yet discussed why you think this way in any of the many many threads? 

Not anytime recently. I tend to agree with Grey where he's talked about it before and on Shardcast, but for a very brief summary so as to not derail - I think Moash killing Elhokar was not the best outcome (that's Elhokar alive and in jail), but I think it was still a good outcome. And I think he was narratively character assassinated hard in RoW, but even in that book is still sympathetic and far more redeemable than Dalinar. I'm sure that one way or another, whether he dies in SA5 or not, we'll have a lot to say on the podcast about him... 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/30/2024 at 10:40 AM, Treamayne said:

Because the solution to "Too many Moash threads" is a new Moash thread?

Fair. I was mostly thinking the other day, "Uggggggh, why must we keep talking about him." And I guess you can't really ask a question about he who shall not be named, without talking about him.

What I'm getting from all this is..

No, there will always be new fans who've just met Moash, and will feel all the feelings invoked by his few successes and many failures (which is the most legitimate thought about all this, that I hadn't really consciously considered. The Cosmere will certainly outlive us all, as will Moash).
Also no, there will always be the group of fans who support Moash because they love him as a character and/or love to troll others with him, because of his character.
Also also no, because his edgelordy-ness is so legendary that he'll never really die no matter what.
Also also also no, because no punishment and/or redemption will ever be "enough."

So, I'm going to either have to get used to his immortality, or ignore future Moash posts, or something. Because very clearly, he's not going anywhere even if he's exploded in a thousand anti-investiture bombs. So, I will resign myself to the inevitable and mentally adjust accordingly.

Edited by JohnnyKaizen
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Whenever people talk about Moash redemption they tend to bring up Dalinar's past as the Blackthorn and how since Dalinar changed so could Moash because Dalinar killed way more people than Moash.

Here's the thing: Dalinar, even at his worst, never willingly killed or hurt the people he cared about, he once nearly tried to kill Gavilar when under the Thrill, but he resisted and felt horrible about it. Evi's death, which he never intended and was an accident, hurt him deeply. When he realized he was starting to hate his own son, he stepped back and tried to find some way to stop himself from becoming worse, going to the Nighwatcher in desperation. 

He's helped conquer kingdoms and slaughtered his enemies, sure. But that's the Alethi Highprince lifestyle, that's how he was raised and what was expected of him. He just enjoyed it and was better at it than most.

But Moash, he willingly betrayed Bridge 4, joined the Voidbringers, the demons of Vorin tradition who he must have known would be in opposition to the men he may as well have called his brothers in arms. He's killed Teft, a friend from Bridge 4. He's tried to goad Kaladin, the man who saved him from slavery, into killing himself. 

"Oh", you might say, "Moash is under Odium's influence, he's not in his right mind." and technically you are right. But so was Dalinar, who still resisted the Thrill to not kill his own brother, long before he ever became a Bondsmith and felt disgusted at himself after. 

But Moash, he doesn't, he said it himself. He doesn't feel bad he killed Teft, he doesn't feel bad that he was pushing Kaladin to suicide, he doesn't feel bad for doing any of it. He feels bad for how it makes him feel, nothing more. And he's still under Odium, he's still Vyre, He Who Quiets.

In my eyes, he's the man who Dalinar could have become, if he hadn't taken responsibility.

Edit:

I'm sorry, I probably shouldn't have posted this here of all places. I just really wanted to put my two cents out there.

Edited by JustQuestin2004
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I feel like all of our (reptitive) discussions about Moash and Morality say much more about each person's morality scale than we can ever say about the character himself. I also think that's a good thing. Where each of us draws lines on betrayal vs. fidelity, murder vs war, redemption vs recidivism helps each of us see the world through each other's eyes and recognize that there are perfectly valid points of view that do not necessarily match our own. 

 

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17 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Whenever people talk about Moash redemption they tend to bring up Dalinar's past as the Blackthorn and how since Dalinar changed so could Moash because Dalinar killed way more people than Moash.

Here's the thing: Dalinar, even at his worst, never willingly killed or hurt the people he cared about, he once nearly tried to kill Gavilar when under the Thrill, but he resisted and felt horrible about it. Evi's death, which he never intended and was an accident, hurt him deeply. When he realized he was starting to hate his own son, he stepped back and tried to find some way to stop himself from becoming worse, going to the Nighwatcher in desperation. 

He's helped conquer kingdoms and slaughtered his enemies, sure. But that's the Alethi Highprince lifestyle, that's how he was raised and what was expected of him. He just enjoyed it and was better at it than most.

But Moash, he willingly betrayed Bridge 4, joined the Voidbringers, the demons of Vorin tradition who he must have known would be in opposition to the men he may as well have called his brothers in arms. He's killed Teft, a friend from Bridge 4. He's tried to goad Kaladin, the man who saved him from slavery, into killing himself. 

"Oh", you might say, "Moash is under Odium's influence, he's not in his right mind." and technically you are right. But so was Dalinar, who still resisted the Thrill to not kill his own brother, long before he ever became a Bondsmith and felt disgusted at himself after. 

But Moash, he doesn't, he said it himself. He doesn't feel bad he killed Teft, he doesn't feel bad that he was pushing Kaladin to suicide, he doesn't feel bad for doing any of it. He feels bad for how it makes him feel, nothing more. And he's still under Odium, he's still Vyre, He Who Quiets.

In my eyes, he's the man who Dalinar could have become, if he hadn't taken responsibility.

Edit:

I'm sorry, I probably shouldn't have posted this here of all places. I just really wanted to put my two cents out there.

giphy.gif

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Moash may die, but discussions around him never will. He's a reasonably well-drawn character (Moash, not Vyre!), who gets more depth and clear, consequential decision making opportunities that we readers observe than most characters do aside from the series' core protagonists. That extra complexity gives a lot more weight to individual choices he makes (since we see him making them) plus a lot of context for why he might be making the choices he does. But he's also decidedly a villain, and readers are unlikely to forgive killing Teft even if they'd be open to giving him a pass on killing Elhokar.

That makes him polarizing. With a window into his mind and decision making process we see him doing things that are very difficult to justify and then we get people breaking into groups: some sympathize with him and want to forgive or excuse his behaviors (to at least some degree) because they find his choices understandable though not good. Others see his decision making process and assess that it is not good enough to drive the choices he makes and so despise him even more than other villains in the series whose minds and choices to become villainous we don't see (cremlings like Torol Sadeas and Amaram, for example).

I really do think it's primarily an emotional response thing which people often try to fit into a broader (often sketchily defined) moral outlook, and people have their motivated view of him whether that view is to excuse or condemn. That he personally betrays and harries one of readers' favorite characters in the series just casts the stakes of judgement into sharper contrast.

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