Question and Answer

[clyguy]

I think Rayse could, he just doesn't because that would change his intent.

 

But that is just it: The pre-breaking investiture pools should be something like human stem cells that have no particular intent(in other words, the potential for all intents). He should then, be able to add these to himself to increase his pool of investiture but, I'm still not convinced that this is correlated with power. However, these "stem splinters" may not be easily detectable or may be hidden.  Additionally, the "sky people" in sixth of dusk were obviously space allomancers, but did not seem to know where the special birds came from or that there was s pool of splintered investiture - which isn't conclusive but if they have that level of technology it might be reasonable to expect them to be able to detect concentrations of investiture.  Also, Ryse is bound to that world for now with the oath pact so that he can't run rampant throughout the cosmere so being able to detect splinters is kind of a moot point.

 

All that being said - I want to go back to my first question and the response:

 

1. So when it comes to Shards, Splinters and Self awareness - Is is possible (or even probable) that some shards which have been bonded for a great deal of time will opt to become self aware instead of seeking another intelligent being with whom to bond? We know that bits of investiture, both before and after the shattering, have become self aware - both by design and by accident. If possible, would the then still be "killable". So far, when we have seen shards "die" it has only meant the severing of the power from the bonder. If it effectively renders the shard immune to death, would that put the cosmere at a standoff since Odium would no longer be able to kill other shards? Or, would he be able to beat the sentience out of them. OR would they require a bond in order to over come odium?

 

 

 

I'm not sure I follow you here. If a Shard doesn't gain sentience on its own, it can't really "decide" to gain sentience, can it? Preservation/Ruin didn't "decide" to bond Sazed, he decided to take up the powers.

 

As to the last half, Splintering is different than what happened to Ruin and Preservation. In Splintering, the power itself is shattered and separated into little chunks. Preservation/Ruin just killed each other's holders. If all the other Shardholders gave up their Shards, their Shards could presumably still be Splintered by Odium.

 

I see that odium could still splinter the shard and I know that Brandon has indicated that no shard (following science logic) can not be destroyed only dispersed and could then POSSIBLY gather all the splinters and reform the shard. 

 

However, may have poorly stated the other part of my question: Other bits of investiture (spren for example) have gained spontaneous sentience. Is it possible for an entire shard to become self aware - not just shadows )like the Stormfather?) If so, would there be any advantage/disadvantage. Would the shard understand itself and it's abilities on a more instinctual level and be more effective? Or would it is it more like bonding a holder is "the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts" kind of madness where the holder adds something unique and powerful to the relationship? THE BIG FINISH: If the shards can be self aware and if they can joinforces (captain planet style) to make something greater - ultimatly Adolnalsium ........ was Adonlasium ever bonded to a once mortal (or immortal?) being or was it just 16 shards coalesed into one god like-self-aware force?

[vividox]

I started to ask a question on here, but in the process I figured out the answer and got as far as I could without RAFO-ing myself. It was a bit of research, so I figured I'd still hit submit rather than deleting it all. Without further ado:

 

According to Elantris:

1) Aons are based on the geography of Arelon and change if the geography of Arelon significantly changes

2) Elantris is in the shape of a very large Aon Rao

3) Elantrians' physiology is directly tied to the completeness of the Aon Rao incorporated into Elantris' design

 

So we know what happens when the Shaod takes a person when Elantris isn't complete, and we know what happens when the Shaod takes a person when Elantris is complete, but what happens if the Shaod takes a person and Elantris isn't even there (i.e. what happened when the Shaod took a person before Elantris was built)? The only real conclusion is that it would cause the person to die or disappear. Which makes me think the Shaod didn't exist before Elantris, which makes me think that Elantris causes the Shaod. Has Brandon been asked this one?

 

Going to WoB:

 

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (paraphrased)

The Shaod is an effect of Elantris.

 

Well alrighty then. From that we can infer an interesting fact: Elantrians did not build Elantris. So, follow up question: who did?

 

Again going to WoB:

 

 

Brandon's Aon Descriptions (Verbatim)

Brandon Sanderson

History and Use

All Aons exist independent of humankind, their symbols inherently tied to their meaning, but few have distinct origin stories explaining how the Aon was first discovered. Some modern scholars scoff at such tales, but Aon Ehe's origin myth is well known among the common people and believed by most.

 

The story tells of the first princess of Arelon. This was some years after the founding of Arelon following the migration of the Aonic people from other lands. Elantris, of course, had already existed as a city when that migration occurred, and had been discovered empty. While some people assumed it haunted, Proud King Rhashm (later renamed Raoshem) determined to conquer the fears of his people and set up a kingdom centered on Elantris.

 

The transformation of the first Elantrians happened beginning several decades later. Princess Elashe—the first of Raoshem's line to be chosen as an Elantrian—claimed to have seen the pattern of this Aon inscribed on a coal in her hearth the day after she underwent the transformation. Whether or not this story is true, a coal or rock written with Aon Ehe on it is considered good luck and a ward against winter spirits. (Though this kind of superstition is frowned upon by the Korathi priests.)

 

Other uses of Ehe are plentiful. It is one of the primal elements, and is often used in scientific writings. It is a ward and warning against danger. It is used on signs in conjunction with other Aons to mean warm food or warm beds available. Some artists and poets choose it as their symbol, both to hint at the dangerous nature of artistry and to speak of the passion of artistry.

 

So, according to in-story lore, Elantris existed before Arelon was settled by the civilization we know from the book. So either Elantris was built by a pre-Arelon civilization (who had an incredible knowledge of Aons and their power), or Elantris was built by a relatively powerful force (probably Aona/Devotion?). And all that assumes the in-story lore is correct. So, I RAFO'd myself.

[Moogle]

@Moogle

To be honest I don't think that a Shard may "consume/eat/take" other Splinters and Add to his own powers.

To me you have to take the Shard's "Core" (I don't know how call it) to have the Mastery over Investiture with a Specific Intent.

Maybe the Pre-Shattering Investiture are more compatible with a Shard but the simply fact that Rayse dind't gatherer extra power (as far as we know) may indicate that he can't do it.

 

I thought the same things about Nightblood, when he drains Investiture then he releases it with an overwrite Intent and any Shard may claim that Investiture anymore.

 

Odium is capable of taking up another Shard by WoB. And we know, of course, that similar Intents makes it easier to meld:

ArgentSun (Reddit)

[Cosmere] Can any two Shards be joined together, like "Preservation and Ruin", or does it depend on their Intents?

Brandon Sanderson (Reddit)

Cosmere: Any can be joined, theoretically, but boy, some of the pairings would have an odd resulting pressure on the one holding them. And similar intents make for an easier time melding.

(source)

 

The only difference between that and taking up a Splinter is a matter of scale. We do have this WoB suggesting scale matters, but any Shard by itself should be enough to cause this in my opinion.

 

WoB:

Argent

Can a Returned like Lightsong go to Roshar and form a bond with a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Investiture interferes with other Investiture.

Argent

And they have a lot of it.

Brandon Sanderson

And they have a lot of it. That is not-- It's not completely-- For instance you can Push on Invested metal, but it's hard. There's a resistance, the more Invested the harder-- So a bond for instance-- forming a bond-- It's, yeah-- It can be done--

I mean Sazed took two of the powers up, right? But I kind of imagine what he did as a nuclear reaction. Where breaking an atom is hard, unless you are in the middle of a sun. And he was in the middle of the sun. At that point--

Argent

There was a lot of stuff going on around him that facilitated.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, definitely. But when you've got that much power you'll-- In other words if there is a lot of power going around, these things become easier.

Argent

So, possible but difficult is--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

(source)

 

We further know any amount of Investiture, even a small amount, changes your personality.

 

I don't believe that the pool in First of the Dusk is, for example, free of Intent, so I see no reason why Odium would take it up and "corrupt" himself.

 

I believe this because the magic on most of the planets seems to have come from Adonalsium. Adonalsium is made up of the 16 Intents, so in my opinion taking up this "mixed Investiture" is still going to corrupt Odium, it's not free of Intent.

 

This is speculation, but speculation I feel reasonably confident on.

 

---

 

But that is just it: The pre-breaking investiture pools should be something like human stem cells that have no particular intent(in other words, the potential for all intents). He should then, be able to add these to himself to increase his pool of investiture but, I'm still not convinced that this is correlated with power. However, these "stem splinters" may not be easily detectable or may be hidden.  Additionally, the "sky people" in sixth of dusk were obviously space allomancers, but did not seem to know where the special birds came from or that there was s pool of splintered investiture - which isn't conclusive but if they have that level of technology it might be reasonable to expect them to be able to detect concentrations of investiture.  Also, Ryse is bound to that world for now with the oath pact so that he can't run rampant throughout the cosmere so being able to detect splinters is kind of a moot point.

 

A few things here:

• We don't know that the Ones Above in Sixth of the Dusk are Allomancers at all.
• Harmony himself cannot detect the Investiture of other Shards (at least, spikes made of it...), so technologically we should not expect there to be "Investiture radar". We have Allomantic bronze of course, but that only serves to detect "kinetic Investiture", and Shards like Harmony probably can detect that.
• Again, Adonalsium was of all sixteen Intents. I don't think thinking of the pool on Sixth of the Dusk as "stem cells" is the right way to look at it. Adonalsium definitely had an Intent, or it would be weird for it to break into sixteen different Intents. (As the letter writer says, Odium was Adonalsium's "divine hatred".)

However, may have poorly stated the other part of my question: Other bits of investiture (spren for example) have gained spontaneous sentience. Is it possible for an entire shard to become self aware - not just shadows )like the Stormfather?)

 

An entire Shard can almost surely become self-aware. Endowment could, at least:

Leinton

Would Returned still Return if Endowment died?

Brandon Sanderson

Magic in the cosmere needs a guiding force. If it doesn't have one, the magic itself will gain sentience. Or someone would pick it up. So yes, Returned would still come, but there would be something different based on who was guiding the power.

(source)

 

Of course, the Dor didn't, as hinted by this:

sufficientlyadvanced

It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why?

Brandon Sanderson ()

It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel.

Phantine

Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though.

Brandon Sanderson

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

Windrunner17

This is an awesome answer!

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Thanks!

Brandon Sanderson

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The Seons and the Skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial.

(source)

 

But the Dor was Splintered, so I think that is the explanation for why the powers there are still "mindless".

 

If so, would there be any advantage/disadvantage. Would the shard understand itself and it's abilities on a more instinctual level and be more effective? Or would it is it more like bonding a holder is "the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts" kind of madness where the holder adds something unique and powerful to the relationship? THE BIG FINISH: If the shards can be self aware and if they can joinforces (captain planet style) to make something greater - ultimatly Adolnalsium ........ was Adonlasium ever bonded to a once mortal (or immortal?) being or was it just 16 shards coalesed into one god like-self-aware force?

 

We don't know if a Shard that became self-aware would have advantages or disadvantages, and I don't feel confident speculating. You could add it to the Ultimate List of Questions?

 

We don't know on Adonalsium. If you're familiar with Mormon teachings, though, there might be some influences there, such as the idea that when one dies, they become "god" of another universe, if I didn't horribly misinterpret that one thread a long time ago. If Brandon is using that idea, it could Adonalsium did indeed have a holder.

 

I'm not a Mormon, nor do I know enough of their beliefs to say anything more than that without looking foolish (if I haven't already mucked things up). There was a thread on Mormonism in the Cosmere a while back if you want to go searching there.

[Topaz]

How do the lashings work (the ones that work with gravity)? Like, do they create gravity that only affects the person/object? Or do they redirect the planet's gravity.

I tried looking in the ars arcanum, and there were two contradictory sentences "the lashings work by ripping the person from the planets gravity, and pulling them somewhere else. This causes the gravity to twist." (I'm doing this off of memory, I probably got some of the words wrong

[natc]

Basic lashings revoke the normal state of gravity, IIRC, and point it in a different direction. Well, the first one anyway. Then you just start stacking more lashings on and it somehow multiplies. Seems like there's two different things going on.

Reverse lashings somehow replicate the planet's gravity in that object at a smaller scale (the real planet will overpower it, so it really only attracts projectiles).

Full lashing has nothing to do with gravity at all.

Those sentences you quoted don't really contradict themselves honestly.

[Moogle]

Reverse lashings somehow replicate the planet's gravity in that object at a smaller scale (the real planet will overpower it, so it really only attracts projectiles).

 

I think things are a little more complex than this. As the Ars Arcanum puts it:

At its heart, this Lashing created a bubble around the object that imitated its spiritual link to the ground beneath it. As such, it was much harder for the Lashing to affect objects touching the ground, where their link to the planet was strongest. Objects falling or in flight were the easiest to influence.

 

My understanding is that it doesn't actually create a true "gravitational field". If it did, projectiles and things on the ground would be affected just the same - it's not like being in the air somehow changes the force gravity is exerting on you!

 

It seems more that things that in the Cosmere, gravity reflects in the Spiritual as a connection. It seems things that are touching have a "Spiritual link" that is quite powerful (and when they're not touching, the connection still exists but is weak - which might explain why various powers require touch and can't be used at a range).

 

The way I'm reading things, the Reverse Lashing actually tries to break the Spiritual link between objects and the planet and replace the connection with one of its own and convince objects that the "ground" is actually the object being Reverse Lashed. This kinda-sorta means it presents a gravitational field, but it's not really one because it actually replaces the planet's field.

 

If Reverse Lashing did not break the planet's own gravity, Kaladin should constantly get filled with arrows!

Edited December 18, 2015 by Moogle

[Dunkum he/him]

I think things are a little more complex than this. As the Ars Arcanum puts it:

At its heart, this Lashing created a bubble around the object that imitated its spiritual link to the ground beneath it. As such, it was much harder for the Lashing to affect objects touching the ground, where their link to the planet was strongest. Objects falling or in flight were the easiest to influence.

 

My understanding is that it doesn't actually create a true "gravitational field". If it did, projectiles and things on the ground would be affected just the same - it's not like being in the air somehow changes the force gravity is exerting on you!

 

It seems more that things that in the Cosmere, gravity reflects in the Spiritual as a connection. It seems things that are touching have a "Spiritual link" that is quite powerful (and when they're not touching, the connection still exists but is weak - which might explain why various powers require touch and can't be used at a range).

 

The way I'm reading things, the Reverse Lashing actually tries to break the Spiritual link between objects and the planet and replace the connection with one of its own and convince objects that the "ground" is actually the object being Reverse Lashed. This kinda-sorta means it presents a gravitational field, but it's not really one because it actually replaces the planet's field.

 

If Reverse Lashing did not break the planet's own gravity, Kaladin should constantly get filled with arrows!

It wouldn't have to break the gravitational attraction to the planet, just provide a strong enough force to alter the flight of the arrows. Wind can exert enough force to blow a projectile off course without altering gravity, so a second gravity (or gravity-like) field where there wouldn't normally be one could do the same. basically adding a strong attractive force to an object should be sufficient to pull objects from the air toward it, and let kaladin avoid becoming a human pincushion

[Stormgate he/him]

Remember, he Lashes other objects. He would be quite stupid and very dead to do it to himself.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Stormgate

[Moogle]

It wouldn't have to break the gravitational attraction to the planet, just provide a strong enough force to alter the flight of the arrows. Wind can exert enough force to blow a projectile off course without altering gravity, so a second gravity (or gravity-like) field where there wouldn't normally be one could do the same. basically adding a strong attractive force to an object should be sufficient to pull objects from the air toward it, and let kaladin avoid becoming a human pincushion

 

The thing is that the things directly hit the Reverse Lashing's target. For arrows and such to be deflected that much, that signifies either a very powerful gravitational field such that it drowns out the planet's - in which case the pulled objects should be pulled extremely fast and basically smash through the Reverse Lashed object because of immense acceleration - or else the planet's Spiritual connection should be broken.

 

---

 

I feel like I should include a diagram here - remember, Parshendi and bridgemen are basically horizontal to each other, and firing arrows horizontally (well not really but you know what I mean). In this case, imagine an arrow aimed towards Kaladin's torso, traveling horizontally. Assuming the fields add together, gravity affects the arrow, pulling it down, and the Reverse Lashing pulls it up. The forces should cancel each other out somewhat, resulting in an arrow traveling horizontally still which hits Kaladin in the torso.

 

Even if the force of the Reverse Lashing is immense, if the arrow is traveling horizontally, the Reverse Lashing doesn't apply a vertical component. So gravity will pull the arrow down... and then when there is a vertical displacement between the bridge and the arrow, then the bridge will begin to cancel out gravity.

 

Either way, if gravity applies and is not broken by a Reverse Lashing, we should expect some arrows to hit the bridge from below - which would not result in the "near misses" Kaladin sees.

 

---

 

Basic Lashings do break an object's Spiritual connection to the ground, so to me it makes sense for Reverse Lashings to do the same.

 

If the connection is not broken, and instead the two fields are added together, we would expect Reverse Lashings to be able to lift things off of the ground without much difficulty. But apparently it is extremely difficult, and even though it's possible it requires a great deal of skill and Stormlight.

 

For a reference on things hitting the Reverse Lashed target directly, here's Kaladin:

A flock of arrows sought his blood, but Kaladin spun between them, taking another slice on the arm but deflecting the others with shield or breastplate. The flight came, and he brought his shield up, worried that he was going to be too slow. However, the arrows changed course, arcing toward his shield, slamming into it. Drawn to it. I’m pulling them to it! He remembered dozens of bridge runs, with arrows slamming into the wood near where his hands had clung to the support bars. Always just missing him.

 

Again, if the Reverse Lashing and normal gravity both operated, we would not expect arrows to all hit his shield. Surely one or two arrows came close to him but didn't actually hit him because they were too low to the ground. In this case, the Reverse Lashing on the bridge he was carrying above should deflect them upwards, and cause at least a few to hit his legs. Instead, none hit him.

 

I also want to stress that the arrows head towards his hands. Not the bridge's center of mass, but his hands. With the source of gravity so close to Kaladin, if gravity was also applying a lot more arrows should be hitting Kaladin.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Moogle

[natc]

It's stated in the AAs somewhere, I swear, that it recreates the spiritual gravitational bond of the planet. Anything on the ground or is too heavy is already too strongly attracted to the planet for the reverse lashing to do anything to.

As the arrows draw nearer to the point of the lashing, since it's gravitational acceleration the pull would logically increase as you approach it, so if it's strong enough you can probably even make an arrow curve upward in spite of natural gravity. It requires contact as well, so it's somewhat reasonable that it only lashes for as much distance as you allow stormlight to saturate and centers there.

If gravity was outright absent nobody would be able to walk.

[Moogle]

It's stated in the AAs somewhere, I swear, that it recreates the spiritual gravitational bond of the planet. Anything on the ground or is too heavy is already too strongly attracted to the planet for the reverse lashing to do anything to.

 

I posted it earlier:

At its heart, this Lashing created a bubble around the object that imitated its spiritual link to the ground beneath it. As such, it was much harder for the Lashing to affect objects touching the ground, where their link to the planet was strongest. Objects falling or in flight were the easiest to influence. Other objects could be affected, but the Stormlight and skill required were much more substantial.

 

But this isn't how gravity works. The strength of gravity from the planet is approximately the same no matter if you're touching it or ten meters above the ground. (In fact, when you're 400 km above the ground in orbit, Earth's gravity is still 90% of what it is on the ground.) So if a Reverse Lashing is just creating gravity of its own, it shouldn't matter one bit if an object is touching the ground or not.

 

As the arrows draw nearer to the point of the lashing, since it's gravitational acceleration the pull would logically increase as you approach it, so if it's strong enough you can probably even make an arrow curve upward in spite of natural gravity. It requires contact as well, so it's somewhat reasonable that it only lashes for as much distance as you allow stormlight to saturate and centers there.

 

If this were true (ie. that the gravity made by a Reverse Lashing acts like a normal gravitational field, and the center of mass of the object is what's doing the attracting and is considered by the world to be millions of pounds), the force of gravity should become immense when you get close enough to the Reverse Lashed object, and much like two magnets hitting each other (which, I note, exert far less of a force than our theoretical Reverse Lashing), anything attracted by the Reverse Lashing should hit very very hard.

 

Which means that, in the paragraph I posted above, Kaladin's shield should have exploded as the arrow rushes at it at absurd speeds if the Reverse Lashing just made the shield's "Spiritual mass" millions/billions of pounds.

 

But the Ars Arcanum explicitly notes that a Reverse Lashing "imitates" the Spiritual link of the planet, so I am assuming that we won't see this inversely proportional force.

 

If gravity was outright absent nobody would be able to walk.

 

Two ideas here:

• People walking almost always have a foot on the ground, so they should ignore the Reverse Lashing as it is.
• Heavy objects are less affected by the Reverse Lashing, in much the same way that heavy objects require a ridiculous amount of Stormlight to move with a Basic Lashing. Their "Spiritual connection" to the ground is much stronger and takes more Stormlight to break.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Moogle

[Dunkum he/him]

I had forgotten about the bridge drawing the arrows that might have otherwise hit Kaladin, mostly remembering his stunts toward the end of WoK with the shields. Now don't get me wrong, because I believe you most likely have it correct, specially given what we know about the basic lashing, but I still think the physics would work out fine if the reverse doesn't break the connection to the planet.

[Oversleep]

I wonder how the basic Lashing work: is the gravity pulling the object in the direction relative to the object, or is the direction relative to the original one? (Does the Windrunner point a direction or is it established as an angle from the original direction of gravity?)
Examples, given infinite amount of Stormlight available. Windrunner, while being at the clouds level, Lashes himself perpendicularly to the direction he views as down:
Situation 1) He will eventually get into outer space and continue to travel.
Situation 2) He will establish an orbit and will stay at the fixed height from the center of mass of the planet.

[SconeScout]

Is there proof here that states each Shardworld chooses a form of Champion accordingly? Like Mistborn, Returned, Radiant, Elantrian, that sort of thing? Or is it more of a theory?

[Landis963 he/him]

Is there proof here that states each Shardworld chooses a form of Champion accordingly? Like Mistborn, Returned, Radiant, Elantrian, that sort of thing? Or is it more of a theory?

 

More of a theory, I don't believe it's been stated outright.  (The only time the term "champion" has come up as a thing is when talking about what happened roundabout the time Honor died.)  In addition, many of those examples misconstrue the term.  Vin could burn the mists instead of her normal metals, and it's that power that made her Preservation's "champion," not being Mistborn.  Radiants aren't chosen by Honor like the Heralds were, they're chosen by their spren.  Devotion and Dominion are dead, so barring cognitive shadow shenanigans there's no one there to choose a champion in the first place, and Elantrians appear to be chosen from the Aonic population basically at random.  

[Moogle]

Devotion and Dominion are dead, so barring cognitive shadow shenanigans there's no one there to choose a champion in the first place, and Elantrians appear to be chosen from the Aonic population basically at random.  

 

I would argue strongly against the idea that Elantrians are chosen randomly... almost every Elantrian was devoted strongly to something (much like every Returned we know sacrificed themselves in some manner, matching the Intent of Endowment), and Raoden hears a Voice in Devotion's Shardpool, implying there are Cognitive Shadow shenanigans going on.

 

We do have a WoB on champions, though I can't find it. It's from one of the recent signings, if anyone recalls it, along the lines of "do some of the other Shards have champions like Odium/Honor" and the answer was "yes".

[SconeScout]

I would argue strongly against the idea that Elantrians are chosen randomly... almost every Elantrian was devoted strongly to something (much like every Returned we know sacrificed themselves in some manner, matching the Intent of Endowment), and Raoden hears a Voice in Devotion's Shardpool, implying there are Cognitive Shadow shenanigans going on.

We do have a WoB on champions, though I can't find it. It's from one of the recent signings, if anyone recalls it, along the lines of "do some of the other Shards have champions like Odium/Honor" and the answer was "yes".

Thank you! So basically, they're NOT confirmed champions, but exemplify their shard's intent fairly well thus gains superiority? And the only reason we don't see that in Roshar is because we just know too little (as of now)?

[Moogle]

Thank you! So basically, they're NOT confirmed champions, but exemplify their shard's intent fairly well thus gains superiority? And the only reason we don't see that in Roshar is because we just know too little (as of now)?

 

We have no confirmation on whether anything is a champion currently. We don't know what champions are, even.

 

Is a Returned a champion of Endowment? We don't know, but maybe!

 

But you've got the gist of it, at least for Endowment and the possible Devotion Cognitive Shadow - they seem to give power to those who fit their Intents, though we don't know that for sure. (It's hard to ignore the pattern, though...)

 

I would argue we see this on Roshar as well. You attract a spren, a piece of Honor/Cultivation (essentially miniature Shards themselves), through your actions and exemplifying the Ideal of an Order of Radiants - much like attracting any spren.

 

Kaladin's protective and honorable, so he attracts an honorspren... Blushweaver dies, giving her life to expose a criminal conspiracy and gets to Return... Raoden is devoted to his country and helping it, so he gets chosen as an Elantrian. It seems very similar.

[Femme she/her]

Alright so I only currently own a copy of the Words of Radiance audiobook, so I can't reference the page, but this occurs in chapter 45.

 

In Shallan's flashback of the fair where Hoid, disguised as a messenger, reacts to seeing Shallan for the first time, he is stunned. I might be wrong, but this might be the only occurrence we see of him reacting so oddly to seeing one of the protagonists for the first time in the cosmere books.

 

I saw in the Words of Brandon thread that Hoid has hints of where and when to go to witness.. things.. but do we know how he recognizes these major characters who have these abilities?

Edited January 4, 2016 by Femme

[Moogle]

Alright so I only currently own a copy of the Words of Radiance audiobook, so I can't reference the page, but this occurs in chapter 45.eahe

 

In Shallan's flashback of the fair where Hoid, disguised as a messenger, reacts to seeing Shallan for the first time, he is stunned. I might be wrong, but this might be the only concurrence we see of him reacting so oddly to seeing one of the protagonists for the first time in the cosmere books.

 

I saw in the Words of Brandon thread that Hoid has hints of where and when to go to witness.. things.. but do we know how he recognizes these major characters who have these abilities?

 

We don't know. It could be Breath-given lifesense (which Zahel uses to detect Syl), or perhaps Allomantic bronze letting him detect them using magic unconsciously. Neither explanation fits too well, or explains why Shallan's presence is so surprising.

 

Though perhaps he's surprised to see Shallan share a power he himself has... not that that explains how he knows she has the power.

[Stormgate he/him]

Alright so I only currently own a copy of the Words of Radiance audiobook, so I can't reference the page, but this occurs in chapter 45.

 

In Shallan's flashback of the fair where Hoid, disguised as a messenger, reacts to seeing Shallan for the first time, he is stunned. I might be wrong, but this might be the only concurrence we see of him reacting so oddly to seeing one of the protagonists for the first time in the cosmere books.

 

I saw in the Words of Brandon thread that Hoid has hints of where and when to go to witness.. things.. but do we know how he recognizes these major characters who have these abilities?

He is mostly surprised to see Shallan, and was probably there for someone else.

He uses Feruchemy to find the people, I have no idea what metal he uses though. Malatium?

Though perhaps he's surprised to see Shallan share a power he himself has... not that that explains how he knows she has the power.

We learn from her flashbacks that Hoid knew she was a Lightweaver when she was a child.

[Moogle]

He uses Feruchemy to find the people, I have no idea what metal he uses though. Malatium? We learn from her flashbacks that Hoid knew she was a Lightweaver when she was a child.

 

I believe Femme was referring to the first time Hoid saw Shallan.

 

He uses Feruchemy to get to important events, but that doesn't necessarily mean he did in Shallan's case. Definitely could have, though.

[Oversleep]

Wait...

1. Hoid did not live through all those years he's been alive
2. He uses Feruchemy
3. He uses Feruchemy to get to important events - he lives through important events

Therefore, I suspect Hoid stores time/years and taps it to live through the chosen ones.

[Moogle]

Wait...

1. Hoid did not live through all those years he's been alive
2. He uses Feruchemy
3. He uses Feruchemy to get to important events - he lives through important events

Therefore, I suspect Hoid stores time/years and taps it to live through the chosen ones.

 

I'm not sure if your theory is correct, but the only in-world information we have on how Hoid gets to important events comes from WoR:

 

Wit nodded, looking thoughtful. “I need to read that book of yours again, it seems. I wanted to warn you, however. I’ll be leaving soon.”

“Leave?” Dalinar said. “You only just arrived.”

“I know. It’s incredibly frustrating, I must admit. I have discovered a place that I must be, though to be honest I’m not exactly sure why I need to be there. This doesn’t always work as well as I’d like it to.”

 

I don't know if that passage fits with your theory on that, but perhaps you'll find it useful.

[Femme she/her]

We don't know. It could be Breath-given lifesense (which Zahel uses to detect Syl), or perhaps Allomantic bronze letting him detect them using magic unconsciously. Neither explanation fits too well, or explains why Shallan's presence is so surprising.

 

Though perhaps he's surprised to see Shallan share a power he himself has... not that that explains how he knows she has the power.

 

Thanks for your answer, I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Sigh, let Hoid's book come soon! He is so intensely interesting.