Ramblings about technology in Era 4

[Dofurion]

Since I learned about the concept of eras in the Cosmere, I have been intrigued by how Brandon plans to implement his magical systems into technology in the future. Perhaps the most revealing WoBs on the subject are the following:

Quote

DrogaKrolow

Technological progress. So Scadrial is going all the way to cyberpunk.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

DrogaKrolow

But do you plan to do it anywhere else?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, with an asterisk, right? Roshar has a very different technological path but they have access to so much more Investiture in an easy to use format. Roshar is really heading toward what we call magicpunk, or things like this, magepunk, where you are using a magical power source and things like this. So their technology is going to go weird but it's going to go fast once they start figuring things out because they have easy access to Investiture resources.

Scadrial: slower for various reasons and things like that, but it's ahead.

And then there was Taldain, which was really far ahead but then froze when it got-- Offworld travel was stopped and it became isolationist.

So most everybody is kind of heading that direction but, yeah.

DrogaKrolow.pl interview (March 17, 2017)

Quote

Argent

You mention... No you didn't mention Arthur Clarke. The guy with the "Any sufficiently advanced technology is distinguishable from magic" ...In, at least, one of the Mistborn trilogies you are probably going to have to deal with the distinction between magic and technology. So can you talk a little about how you are going to address that?

Brandon Sanderson

So yeah, addressing the-- This is a really good question, thank you. So Clarke's Law says that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". Right? And this is kind of a science fiction truism that we use in writing. It's a really cool concept when you think about it. But he asks "Well we're pushing the Mistborn trilogy more and more towards science fiction--"

For those who don't know, I pitched the Mistborn trilogy to my editor, long ago--this was 2003 when I pitched it to him-- I pitched it as a trilogy of trilogies. An epic fantasy trilogy that then after the epic fantasy trilogy we would jump hundreds of years and do an urban fantasy trilogy in a more modern setting, where all of the events of the epic fantasy trilogy became the foundation of religion and superstition and even culture to a modern society. What if our heritage were something like The Lord of the Rings? And then I was going to write a science fiction trilogy where... magic became the means by which space travel is possible. So there is, built-in to Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy, FTL-capability. *audience mutters* *nervously* It's not there yet don't worry. *laughter*

Argent

Somebody found the rabbit-hole.

Brandon Sanderson

That's all RAFO's. I'm not answering any of that.

So I did Alloy-era, by the way, as a stop-gap between the epic fantasy and the modern because I wanted something smaller-- The modern trilogy is going to be very thick books, and I wanted something to balance Stormlight while I was doing the first five Stormlight...

So he's asking how I'm going to deal with this whole collision... between science and magic. So there's a-- I don't know if corollary is the right term. Probably not, but there's a version of Clarke's Law which you inverse. And you say "Any sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science". In the cosmere the magic is science. What I would call-- say is science fantasy because we've added to the Laws of Thermodynamics. We have this other thing called Investiture, which is what powers all the magic. Which is the souls of the things they call gods, their substance. And you can change matter or energy into Investiture and back. And so we've got a third circle in the old Laws of Thermodynamics and so because of that it's science fantasy. I would still call this fantasy because science fiction is where they go "We're going to take the Laws of Thermodynamics and try to explain what we can do using them" I'm like "No, we're just going to add to them, right?" But yeah that's where we're going. There will be a collision of that but it's really going to be-- To them it's indistinguishable, once you get far enough along, that it really is science.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

So we have that Scadrial and Roshar will have almost parallel technological developments, with Scadrial heading towards Cyberpunk and Roshar towards "Magepunk". If we think about it carefully, the result is that in the future the Scadrians will use technology more aesthetically similar to Startrek/Starwars while the Rosharians will have something more similar to Warhammer 40k (with a lot of distance).

The first with ships with more aerodynamic profiles (more similar to those of our world) and the second with more cubic and robust ships (perhaps as a derivation of the 4th Bridge). But I have always had the persistent thought that the way things are set out, it could be the case that these roles are reversed.

Note: It's obvious that Brandon won't go in that direction but I still wanted to put this idea down in writing.

My approach is simple, Scadrial apparently in Era 2 has a great crutch, the metal arts, the presence of this form of investiture has delayed and redirected its development (High knowledge in metallurgy but still does not have a radio) I have even its technology most advanced coming from an area with few metalborn is entirely based on the mechanization of said arts. What happens if we extrapolate that constant to the future technological development of the planet? Well, we have a society with technology dependent on 17 raw materials for its operation and its realmatic properties (This is far from the technology of our world where current developments are based on the experimentation of compounds and mechanical properties. that arise from different geometric configurations in their atomic structure)

This line of thought arose after reading the preview of "Sixth II" years ago.

As for Roshar, although at first glance it might seem that its technological development may go in a totally strange and alien direction than one might think, I feel that the opposite is the case. The fabrials are developing in directions very similar to our technology. Additionally, the surge of transformation with a user with sufficient knowledge of the axes could produce large quantities of theoretical compounds (from two-dimensional materials to high entropy alloys) that in the Scadrian technological aspect were discarded due to being allomantically inert.

Well, these are my thoughts on the matter, given the information we have so far obviously that will not be the scenario that will play out but it seemed good to write it down.
As a fun note due to this I imagine that the Scadrian ships end up looking like the classic flying saucer, it would fit a lot with the tone that was developed in Era 2.

Edited March 28 by Dofurion
add link

[+Oltux72]

It seems to me that you are thinking too minimalist in that regard. You are asking how to build spaceships with a set of technologies. But that makes relatively little sense. The Rosharans do not want to build space ships. They want to get to other planets. Why build a ship if you can build better oath gates? Why cure diseases if you can conjure a new body and transfer the soul? And so on.

Edited April 11 by Oltux72
typo

[Dofurion]

On 4/11/2024 at 3:09 AM, Oltux72 said:

It seems to me that you are thinking too minimalist in that regard. You are asking how to build spaceships with a set of technologies. But that makes relatively little sense. The Rosharans do not want to build space ships. They want to get to other planets. Why build a ship if you can build better oath gates? Why cure diseases if you can conjure a new body and transfer the soul? And so on.

In fact, I had already thought about the issue of Oathgates, but so far they seem to have the limitation that they have to be a pair to work (one at the place of departure and another at the place of arrival). Which leaves us just as incapable of reaching planets without perpendicularities.

 

[JustQuestin2004]

12 hours ago, Dofurion said:

In fact, I had already thought about the issue of Oathgates, but so far they seem to have the limitation that they have to be a pair to work (one at the place of departure and another at the place of arrival). Which leaves us just as incapable of reaching planets without perpendicularities.

 

The original Ashynites used the power of a Bondsmith and an Elsecaller to send themselves directly from Ashyn to Roshar. So if they can make a more perfected and mechanized version of that, they might be able to make Worldhopping Oathgates that don't need to be paired up, or maybe they can just set up Oathgates in Shadesmar, the Oathgates allow Realmatic Transition.

The main problem is getting Stormlight and Spren off of Roshar, which will happen at some point as seen in Sunlit Man.

Something else I'm thinking about for Era 4 is the combining of Hemalurgy and cybernetics, so many possibilities there.

Imagine having several 'chip' spikes that contain various powers, then slotting them into you cybernetics which would be situated over the correct Bindpoints. Then when you need a specific power you can swap between them without needing to go over the 3 Spike limit, which makes it so you can't be controlled. Maybe Attribute Spikes will be more common, imagine having 3 'Chips' of Iron, Zinc, Copper and Tin then having a Gamer interface for a kind of 'attribute slider'. So you can switch from 3 Iron Chips to 2 Copper and 1 Tin. So fascinating. 

Could even set up a bit of slang for that, the 4 Stats: Strength, Senses, Smarts and Stability. Sounds catchy to me. Who wouldn't want to be stronger or smarter whenever they want?

 

[alder24]

7 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Imagine having several 'chip' spikes that contain various powers, then slotting them into you cybernetics which would be situated over the correct Bindpoints. Then when you need a specific power you can swap between them without needing to go over the 3 Spike limit, which makes it so you can't be controlled. Maybe Attribute Spikes will be more common, imagine having 3 'Chips' of Iron, Zinc, Copper and Tin then having a Gamer interface for a kind of 'attribute slider'. So you can switch from 3 Iron Chips to 2 Copper and 1 Tin. So fascinating. 

Oh I love that idea! @Trusk'our what do you think?

[JustQuestin2004]

52 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Oh I love that idea! @Trusk'our what do you think?

Also I think subdermal aluminum patches around the head will probably be a thing. Maybe around the stomach for more Internal allomancers to help hide their allomancy.

[Trusk'our]

8 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Something else I'm thinking about for Era 4 is the combining of Hemalurgy and cybernetics, so many possibilities there.

Imagine having several 'chip' spikes that contain various powers, then slotting them into you cybernetics which would be situated over the correct Bindpoints. Then when you need a specific power you can swap between them without needing to go over the 3 Spike limit, which makes it so you can't be controlled. Maybe Attribute Spikes will be more common, imagine having 3 'Chips' of Iron, Zinc, Copper and Tin then having a Gamer interface for a kind of 'attribute slider'. So you can switch from 3 Iron Chips to 2 Copper and 1 Tin. So fascinating. 

Could even set up a bit of slang for that, the 4 Stats: Strength, Senses, Smarts and Stability. Sounds catchy to me. Who wouldn't want to be stronger or smarter whenever they want?

Spoiler

 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

13 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Something else I'm thinking about for Era 4 is the combining of Hemalurgy and cybernetics, so many possibilities there.

Imagine having several 'chip' spikes that contain various powers, then slotting them into you cybernetics which would be situated over the correct Bindpoints. Then when you need a specific power you can swap between them without needing to go over the 3 Spike limit, which makes it so you can't be controlled. Maybe Attribute Spikes will be more common, imagine having 3 'Chips' of Iron, Zinc, Copper and Tin then having a Gamer interface for a kind of 'attribute slider'. So you can switch from 3 Iron Chips to 2 Copper and 1 Tin. So fascinating. 

This doesn't need to be limited to Hemalurgy either. You could have metalmind chips that grant feruchemical / allomantic abilities and / or feruchemical batteries that are devoid of Identity. A standardized form of education where every citizen is given a coppermind full of the information they need. 

 

I'm imagining Gladiator style games where both contestants are given the medallions needed to compound gold and then fight to the (near) death. 

 

Seems like we could be wrapping back around to the situation in era 1. Those who are wealthy enough to buy the abilities they want will be able to control the common folk and become a quasi-nobility. Normal Scadrians would be selling their extra innate Preservation for use in spikes, similar to how Nalthians sell their breath for exorbitant amounts (or are pressured). 

[JustQuestin2004]

5 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

A standardized form of education where every citizen is given a coppermind full of the information they need. 

Sounds really cool, but also kind of horrific if abused. I could see an evil mega-corporation having children be born and raised to be workers, giving them Unsealed Copperminds filled with necessary info to work but also a ton of toxic propaganda to make them loyal to the company and no one else. Very dystopian. Though there'll probably be laws against it by Era 4.

5 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Seems like we could be wrapping back around to the situation in era 1. Those who are wealthy enough to buy the abilities they want will be able to control the common folk and become a quasi-nobility. Normal Scadrians would be selling their extra innate Preservation for use in spikes, similar to how Nalthians sell their breath for exorbitant amounts (or are pressured). 

So basically Mistborn Cyberpunk? I'm into it. In fact it gives me some ideas for a story.

[alder24]

20 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Also I think subdermal aluminum patches around the head will probably be a thing. Maybe around the stomach for more Internal allomancers to help hide their allomancy.

I think aluminum around the stomach might interfere with your Allomancy, especially steel and iron as those come from that area. What about small watch like primer cubes charged with A-copper? You just turn it on and off when you need it and it won't mess your Allomancy. 

[therunner]

On 4/15/2024 at 7:18 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

Something else I'm thinking about for Era 4 is the combining of Hemalurgy and cybernetics, so many possibilities there.

Imagine having several 'chip' spikes that contain various powers, then slotting them into you cybernetics which would be situated over the correct Bindpoints. Then when you need a specific power you can swap between them without needing to go over the 3 Spike limit, which makes it so you can't be controlled. Maybe Attribute Spikes will be more common, imagine having 3 'Chips' of Iron, Zinc, Copper and Tin then having a Gamer interface for a kind of 'attribute slider'. So you can switch from 3 Iron Chips to 2 Copper and 1 Tin. So fascinating. 

Could even set up a bit of slang for that, the 4 Stats: Strength, Senses, Smarts and Stability. Sounds catchy to me. Who wouldn't want to be stronger or smarter whenever they want?

Well, there is that issue that apparently Attribute Hemalurgy causes rather awful physical effects (see Chimeras or Kolloss), which is seemingly innate part of Hemalurgy.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

The Mechanism of Hemalurgy

...

So that meant koloss had to be made out of regular people, not Allomancers or Feruchemists. Suddenly I had another set of abilities that Hemalurgy had to be able to steal—the basic pieces of Preservation inside the souls of all men.

Hence the decision that where the spike was placed in the receiver, and how it was used to kill a person, influenced how the power was shaped. Now a pewter spike could steal any of a number of powers, based on how it was used. And regular people could be used instead of Allomancers—however, when that happened, the receiver was twisted much more than if an Allomantically charged spike or a Feruchemically charged spike was used.

My rationale for this is that if the spike is pulling out the pure power of Preservation—part of the power of all creation—and twisting it, it would change the body of the recipient greatly. Twisting them through use of the twisted power.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 17, 2009)

Since Set don't use any attribute spikes, this limitation seems to hold still, and even with Autonomy they were unable to circumvent it. So these 'chip' spikes would give you the attribute...and mutate you horribly.

Of course it is possible that in future they will figure out a way around it, however I would not bet on it.
 

[Trusk'our]

52 minutes ago, therunner said:

Well, there is that issue that apparently Attribute Hemalurgy causes rather awful physical effects (see Chimeras or Kolloss), which is seemingly innate part of Hemalurgy.

Since Set don't use any attribute spikes, this limitation seems to hold still, and even with Autonomy they were unable to circumvent it. So these 'chip' spikes would give you the attribute...and mutate you horribly.

Of course it is possible that in future they will figure out a way around it, however I would not bet on it.

I would bet that there are ways around it, though they may not be extremely easy to find at first.

Whatever allows Kandra and Mistwraiths to shape shift also makes them immune to these mutations. 

Additionally, with a better knowledge of the Spiritweb, what specific pieces you want to take in an attribute spike, and Bindpoints in general, it may be possible to channel the changes into smaller, yet actually beneficial changes, such as an iron spike giving you a little more muscle mass or bone density but leaving you human. 

This could be made easier to find through SR hacks and computers, but if it does happen it probably won't be till era 4.

[alder24]

35 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Whatever allows Kandra and Mistwraiths to shape shift also makes them immune to these mutations. 

Well, it's not about Kandra or Mistwraiths abilities, I think it's about the way Blessings are prepared. They are unlike any other Hemalurgic spike, prepared specifically for an individual, they are not interchangeable, tied to the Identity of its bearer. What if that's the key to attribute spikes that don't mutate you, or minimize those mutations to non harmful levels? Don't make spikes, make Blessings, prepared specifically for you, keyed to your identity so there is no contamination? Anyway, I agree with you, there probably are some ways to wear attribute spikes with minimal mutations. 

Or I'm thinking you can wear a single spike that mutates your body (giving you strength for example) and treat it like F-pewter - wear it only when you need strength and remove it when it's not needed. Your body would change back to your normal state, but you must place that spike in a non lethal binding point. Kind of like Vin or Wax's earring. I think that’s a possibility we tend to ignore when discussing spikes, that you can just remove them if not needed, or interchange them and we’ve already seen this behavior in books - Paalm was doing that.

[JustQuestin2004]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I think aluminum around the stomach might interfere with your Allomancy, especially steel and iron as those come from that area. What about small watch like primer cubes charged with A-copper? You just turn it on and off when you need it and it won't mess your Allomancy. 

That's why I said most Internal Allomancers, like Tineyes and Pewterarms. Stomach-Shields would be a rather niche use.

I also like your idea but the Harmonium in those watches would run out eventually, aluminum doesn't. And aluminum is going to be a lot cheaper than Harmonum on Scadrial pretty soon.

Just now, alder24 said:

Well, it's not about Kandra or Mistwraiths abilities, I think it's about the way Blessings are prepared. They are unlike any other Hemalurgic spike, prepared specifically for an individual, they are not interchangeable, tied to the Identity of its bearer. What if that's the key to attribute spikes that don't mutate you, or minimize those mutations to non harmful levels? Don't make spikes, make Blessings, prepared specifically for you, keyed to your identity so there is no contamination? Anyway, I agree with you, there probably are some ways to wear attribute spikes with minimal mutations. 

Or I'm thinking you can wear a single spike that mutates your body (giving you strength for example) and treat it like F-pewter - wear it only when you need strength and remove it when it's not needed. Your body would change back to your normal state, but you must place that spike in a non lethal binding point. Kind of like Vin or Wax's earring. I think that’s a possibility we tend to ignore when discussing spikes, that you can just remove them if not needed, or interchange them and we’ve already seen this behavior in books - Paalm was doing that.

Yeah, hot-swapping spikes seems like the logical progression. Especially since it's now well known on how to prevent Hemalurgic Decay.

I didn't think about Blessings but you're completely right, if a Mistwraith were to eat a Koloss and get their spikes they wouldn't gain sentience, so the Blessings might be the way to go. Era 3 will probably have more info on them, since we've never seen if they can be used on humans.

Or maybe making Unkeyed Hemalurgic Spikes? Blanking the donor's Identity in some way, could that be how the Blessings are made? 

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

That's why I said most Internal Allomancers, like Tineyes and Pewterarms. Stomach-Shields would be a rather niche use.

Oh yeah, of course I've missed that word. Makes more sense now. 

10 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I didn't think about Blessings but you're completely right, if a Mistwraith were to eat a Koloss and get their spikes they wouldn't gain sentience, so the Blessings might be the way to go. Era 3 will probably have more info on them, since we've never seen if they can be used on humans.

Apparently something not that hard has to be done to Koloss spikes first to make them work as Blessings. 

Spoiler

yulerule

Are Inquisitor spikes, kandra Blessings and koloss spikes interchangeable?  Like if you it spiked in a different way--

Brandon Sanderson

*Hesitant* You could make that work and it wouldn't be that hard. But just as they are, no.

yulerule

Would nothing happen or would weird stuff happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Weird stuff would happen

*pause*

But that one's not very hard to make work.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

8 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Or maybe making Unkeyed Hemalurgic Spikes? Blanking the donor's Identity in some way, could that be how the Blessings are made? 

This might be one of the first steps, but this can't be all of it, otherwise TenSoon's spikes would work on ReLuur without problems. I think they have to be keyed to Kandra too.

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Additionally, with a better knowledge of the Spiritweb, what specific pieces you want to take in an attribute spike, and Bindpoints in general, it may be possible to channel the changes into smaller, yet actually beneficial changes, such as an iron spike giving you a little more muscle mass or bone density but leaving you human.

I doubt the changes would ever be beneficial (as Brandon philosophy of limitations), but it is plausible they could be limited/minimized.

I personally still maintain that the physical changes are because of the attribute, as the physical body changes to accommodate spiritual changes (It is no accident that full grown Koloss are 2x the size of adult human, and hence have ~4x the muscle strength from simple scaling). As such, you would have to find a way to change the attribute into something more along the lines of what A-Pewter does.

21 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Or I'm thinking you can wear a single spike that mutates your body (giving you strength for example) and treat it like F-pewter - wear it only when you need strength and remove it when it's not needed. Your body would change back to your normal state, but you must place that spike in a non lethal binding point. Kind of like Vin or Wax's earring. I think that’s a possibility we tend to ignore when discussing spikes, that you can just remove them if not needed, or interchange them and we’ve already seen this behavior in books - Paalm was doing that.

Not all spikes are simple removable, many must be placed in places that make their removal impossible (see Wax) without killing subject.
I'd bet that effects in non-lethal bindpoints will be diminished/different than lethal ones, and for some uses lethal bindpoints will be necessary. It is after all Invested Art of Ruin.

[JustQuestin2004]

58 minutes ago, alder24 said:

This might be one of the first steps, but this can't be all of it, otherwise TenSoon's spikes would work on ReLuur without problems. I think they have to be keyed to Kandra too.

TenSoon used Oreseur's Blessings and gained their effect, so Kandra can gain the attribute boost from a Blessing, but they can't share the 'sentience granting' part, which now seems distinct from the actual Hemalurgic Effect.

Identity is definitely a part of it somehow, but how? Mistwraith suffer from a 'Cognitive Blockage' that prevents them from being human, the Blessings effect that. There's just not enough info to make any real guesses. 

[Dofurion]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

1 hour ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Or maybe making Unkeyed Hemalurgic Spikes? Blanking the donor's Identity in some way, could that be how the Blessings are made? 

This might be one of the first steps, but this can't be all of it, otherwise TenSoon's spikes would work on ReLuur without problems. I think they have to be keyed to Kandra too.

I consider that it is the only "mechanical" step that has to be carried out. Imagine that the spike is left with a void when it is filled with a donor without an identity, then the spike, upon passing through the Mistwraith's cognitive block, would automatically be filled with its newly unlocked identity.

15 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

TenSoon used Oreseur's Blessings and gained their effect, so Kandra can gain the attribute boost from a Blessing, but they can't share the 'sentience granting' part, which now seems distinct from the actual Hemalurgic Effect.

We must also take into account that TenSoon consumes OreSeur, this may allow him to use his spikes.

[JustQuestin2004]

3 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

We must also take into account that TenSoon consumes OreSeur, this may allow him to use his spikes.

Don't think so, Kandra can't eat an Aviar and gain its powers, they can't eat a Dahkor Monk and gain their powers, eating a physical body doesn't let a Kandra access any Spiritual stuff. Hemalurgy is primarily Spiritual.

[alder24]

18 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

TenSoon used Oreseur's Blessings and gained their effect, so Kandra can gain the attribute boost from a Blessing, but they can't share the 'sentience granting' part, which now seems distinct from the actual Hemalurgic Effect.

Yes, but TenSoon wore them in addition to his original Blessing, not as a replacement  and that's what I meant. If they were unkeyed, they could just switch their Blessings and all would be fine. It's not fine, they have to have their Blessings prepared specifically for them, which suggests they are keyed to their Identity somehow. 

20 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Identity is definitely a part of it somehow, but how? Mistwraith suffer from a 'Cognitive Blockage' that prevents them from being human, the Blessings effect that. There's just not enough info to make any real guesses. 

I agree, we don't know much. 

 

2 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

I consider that it is the only "mechanical" step that has to be carried out. Imagine that the spike is left with a void when it is filled with a donor without an identity, then the spike, upon passing through the Mistwraith's cognitive block, would automatically be filled with its newly unlocked identity.

I disagree. Attaching a spike to a recipient doesn't steal anything from them, it should not be suddenly keyed to them. If you steal a Feruchemical power from a donor, you can tap their metalminds, because it carries their identity, but if someone takes this spike from you and spikes themselves, they can't use your metalminds that you've made, as they are mostly keyed to your identity, which wasn't transferred with the spike. 

7 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

We must also take into account that TenSoon consumes OreSeur, this may allow him to use his spikes.

They eat just bodies, not spirit webs.

[Dofurion]

5 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Don't think so, Kandra can't eat an Aviar and gain its powers, they can't eat a Dahkor Monk and gain their powers, eating a physical body doesn't let a Kandra access any Spiritual stuff. Hemalurgy is primarily Spiritual.

But here we are not talking about powers per se, but about Identity.
The Kandras consider that the remains contain much of the identity of the people (this includes the masks of those from the South)

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

But here we are not talking about powers per se, but about Identity.
The Kandras consider that the remains contain much of the identity of the people (this includes the masks of those from the South)

Identity is a Spiritual property, not physical one, it's coded in your spirit web. Kandra can't touch that, can't replicate that. Eating bodies won't carry Identity to them.

[JustQuestin2004]

1 minute ago, Dofurion said:

But here we are not talking about powers per se, but about Identity.
The Kandras consider that the remains contain much of the identity of the people (this includes the masks of those from the South)

 

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Identity is a Spiritual property, not physical one, it's coded in your spirit web. Kandra can't touch that, can't replicate that. Eating bodies won't carry Identity to them.

Beat me to it.

Lke Syl said, a rock can be broken and the rock is still there, a Spren can be broken and its still there, when a human breaks there's nothing but meat left. The Kandra can consider whatever they want but that ain't changing without a Spike.

[Dofurion]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I disagree. Attaching a spike to a recipient doesn't steal anything from them, it should not be suddenly keyed to them. If you steal a Feruchemical power from a donor, you can tap their metalminds, because it carries their identity, but if someone takes this spike from you and spikes themselves, they can't use your metalminds that you've made, as they are mostly keyed to your identity, which wasn't transferred with the spike. 

It basically depends on at what point in the process of creating a hemalurgic spike it is actually loaded with attributes (Plus the possible remnant of identity that I consider they must have).
You are right if it is at the time of taking it out.
I am right if it is during his stay in the body.

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

It basically depends on at what point in the process of creating a hemalurgic spike it is actually loaded with attributes (Plus the possible remnant of identity that I consider they must have).

When a spike is driven through the body of a donor, which steals their attributes and holds them in the spike from this point on. How could it be coded when you place it in a recipient and have no contact with a donor at this point? A Hemalurgic spike tears off a part of a spirit web of a donor, it steals it, it carries it with it - it is loaded with attributes when you do that, not when you place it in a recipient. The binding point in a recipient determines only how you connect this piece of stolen soul to your spirit web. If you choose the wrong one, you will get a spike that doesn't work, but it will never give you a different power than it is in the spike. You invest them in the moment of the first spiking. It simply can't work the other way around. Putting a spike in a recipient doesn't invest it.