Is shardplate additive?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Do any other enhancements help shardplate? Or does Shardplate operate at its own peak always only?  

I see shardplate being over half a ton as a really neat thing but I don't know if that would limit its capabilities?  The power in the shardplate is what allows it to do what it does right?  Without the leggings you couldn't move just wearing the upperhalf most likely. So I wonder where plate negates other abilities and where it doesn't. 

Arm wrestling plate only vs a pewterarm in plate vs brute ferring in plate? 

When Dalinar is racing in Way of Kings... if one of the plate wearing contestants were also a pewter arm or steel runner would they have an advantage? 

Could a plate wearing iron ferrings tap a few thousand pounds and the plate be enough to support the weight and allow them to move and fight as usual?  

I imagine dead plate would cut off all lines and thus steel and iron allomancy would be useless in it.  It likely would also block the emotional metals as it protects the user so long as they have the helm on. 

Would you still be able to see atium shadows from inside of plate?  

 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

Wow. Great questions I hadn't considered. I will be sharing my first opinions after reading your post, so please do not take what I say as anything close to factual.

 

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Arm wrestling plate only vs a pewterarm in plate vs brute ferring in plate? 

I think regular person in plate loses here, and the petwerarm vs ferring would be based off how much strength the ferring has stored.

Essentially, I think that the plate only adds to your strength. So, if you are burning pewter or tapping a metalmind or any other way to become stronger, I think that will add the plate. We know that plate stops emotional allomancy (unless its super strong like Rashek). However, i think if the person wearing the plate had the spike in the eye, they would still see like inquisitors do. I dont think the plate would block investiture coming from you, regardless of what it is. So I think you could use emotional allomancy from within the plate, see atium shadows, awaken things, etc.

 

Im thinking that just because the Identity and Intent would be the same, and thus the plate would be smart enough to let your allomancy past while simultaneously blocking your enemies.

ROW:

Spoiler

Kaladin is able to lash things from within his plate because its his lash and his plate.

 

[SPECTRE120]

At first I read this as "Is Shardplate Addictive?" and I was very confused.

I think other affects such as being a Thug would contribute to your overall strength and combine with your shardplate.

[therunner]

I'd say that no, it is not.

Shardplate is meant to be powered armor analogue, and those simply use their own strength.

[Treamayne]

Based on this bit from WoK Ch 69, and other clues sprinkled throughout, I think it may be possible - but likely only with Intent, not as a "default yes."

Spoiler

You weren’t even worried, were you?” he said to her.

“Worried?” she asked. Her eyes met his, and for the first time, he noticed their redness. “I was terrified.”

And then Dalinar found himself grabbing her in an embrace. He had to be careful as he was in Shardplate, but the gauntlets let him feel the silk of her dress, and his missing helm let him smell the sweet floral scent of her perfumed soap.

So, if even dead plate can transfer things like some senses (but implied to block others - if the Helm does block battlefield smells) then it should be possible for Connection to the Plate with proper Intent to allow some (most|all?) MoIs to work from/inside/through Plate. 

[alder24]

19 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do any other enhancements help shardplate? Or does Shardplate operate at its own peak always only?  

I see shardplate being over half a ton as a really neat thing but I don't know if that would limit its capabilities?  The power in the shardplate is what allows it to do what it does right?  Without the leggings you couldn't move just wearing the upperhalf most likely. So I wonder where plate negates other abilities and where it doesn't. 

Arm wrestling plate only vs a pewterarm in plate vs brute ferring in plate? 

When Dalinar is racing in Way of Kings... if one of the plate wearing contestants were also a pewter arm or steel runner would they have an advantage? 

I believe it's additive but a Shardplate grants such massive enhancements that even a Thug flaring pewter wouldn't be that much stronger than another Shardbearer. A Shardplate levels the fighting field. 

19 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Could a plate wearing iron ferrings tap a few thousand pounds and the plate be enough to support the weight and allow them to move and fight as usual?  

No, it will help hold your increased mass, but the plate has limits of how much it can lift - the more mass you have the harder it is for your plate to move you, the weaker it gets. And if you tap too much weight, you can even crash your Shardplate. Dalinar's plate was cracking when he was holding the Chasmfiend's claw, Dalinar's plate was crushed when he was buried under rocks in OB - there are limits on how much weight a plate can support.

19 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I imagine dead plate would cut off all lines and thus steel and iron allomancy would be useless in it.  It likely would also block the emotional metals as it protects the user so long as they have the helm on. 

Would you still be able to see atium shadows from inside of plate?  

A dead plate stops all kinds of investiture use. It will block emotional Allomancy, it might block steelsight. But Atium shadows? Hard to say. They are effects of peering into the Spiritual Realm. A Shardblade will still leave an Atium shadow, so I find it possible that a dead Shardplate won't stop you from using Atium because all of this is happening in SR.

Spoiler

relient23 (paraphrased)

If you're burning atium, can you predict the trajectory of an atium (atium, not aluminum) bullet?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Atium? Yes. But aluminum... Maybe not so much. *sly smile*

Shadows of Self Houston signing (Oct. 7, 2015)

 

[Duxredux]

So... for strength and speed enhancement I'm juggling this back and forth trying to remember old physics lessons and I'm leaning towards that Plate isn't significantly additive... or more appropriately that most people aren't significantly additive to Plate. Dalinar and Adolin talk about the equalizing effect of Plate where Adolin in his prime is at equivalent strength to his 50+ year old father when equipped as Shardbearers. Look at it this way: Shardplate moves and supports it's own mass. When a Shardbearer easily swings a massive Shardhammer onto their shoulder, their muscles are not doing any of the work to support the Shardhammer itself, the only work they do is moving their body into that stance. In order to apply more force than the Shardplate, you personally have to be able to accelerate the enormous mass of the Plate itself beyond where the Plate is providing assistance starting where the high resistive forces have defined the maximum limits of Plate. Basically for you to add any helpful force you'd have to already be strong enough to move around in unpowered Plate. I'd need someone who has done physics more recently than a decade ago to tell me if the force assistance compensates for the added mass for someone strong enough to walk around in unpowered Plate, but my knee jerk response is that it won't help, and that basically it's not additive and flat out worse than not wearing it all for force added. 

Here's an example: a Wall Street Journal documentary on the self-propelled bicycle world record of 184 mph (296 kph) set by Denise Mueller-Korenek. To be clear, she was not unassisted, she had an extremely fast specialized car driving directly in front that she was drafting behind using it as a wind break - but she was able to otherwise maintain 184 mph without fighting air resistance. From a Steelrunner wearing Plate perspective, you're asking if the cyclist were to pedal even faster and try to push the car to go even faster - which is trying to accelerate the mass of car and a larger surface area at the extremely high resistive forces at play... and I just don't think it's going to help. The one caveat is that Plate is presumably more heat resistive than a Steelrunner, so if you have that much power to spend, then maybe you can go faster at an exorbitantly expensive cost with other magics to assist you.

That said, Plate is an amplifier in that it takes it's cues for how fast to move, how hard to hit from the Shardbearer, so a Shardbearer will get tired eventually, depending on the damage possible before the Plate itself runs low for power-assist. Personal enhancement of this variety, be it a Blessing of Potency, A-Pewter, or Stormlight itself that enhances stamina will mitigate that. 

As for other powers, if it's not personally your own Plate gained via the Nahel Bond through Oaths, don't count on it working through Plate - and no idea even if it is your own Plate. Szeth as the Assassin in White never kept dead Plate as it would have interfered with his Surgebinding and that's at least in the same Honor/Cultivation magic family. In the second time we see the Starfalls vision, the Radiant Dalinar replaces apparently had to dismiss her armor so that the accompanying 4th+ Ideal Windrunner could Lash her, so even for trusted allies this interference remains. No idea the extent of interference for your own personally bonded Plate spren, maybe Hoid will answer this for us some day. 

Edited March 11 by Duxredux

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

7 hours ago, therunner said:

I'd say that no, it is not.

Shardplate is meant to be powered armor analogue, and those simply use their own strength.

This is how I had always viewed it.  I saw another post where someone said something along the lines of "plate doesn't give +20 to strength it just sets strength to 20."  I agreed with that thought though 20 is a lowball answer. 

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

So... for strength and speed enhancement I'm juggling this back and forth trying to remember old physics lessons and I'm leaning towards that Plate isn't significantly additive... or more appropriately that most people aren't significantly additive to Plate. Dalinar and Adolin talk about the equalizing effect of Plate where Adolin in his prime is at equivalent strength to his 50+ year old father when equipped as Shardbearers. Look at it this way: Shardplate moves and supports it's own mass. When a Shardbearer easily swings a massive Shardhammer onto their shoulder, their muscles are not doing any of the work to support the Shardhammer itself, the only work they do is moving their body into that stance. In order to apply more force than the Shardplate, you personally have to be able to accelerate the enormous mass of the Plate itself beyond where the Plate is providing assistance starting where the high resistive forces have defined the maximum limits of Plate. Basically for you to add any helpful force you'd have to already be strong enough to move around in unpowered Plate. I'd need someone who has done physics more recently than a decade ago to tell me if the force assistance compensates for the added mass for someone strong enough to walk around in unpowered Plate, but my knee jerk response is that it won't help, and that basically it's not additive and flat out worse than not wearing it all for force added. 

Here's an example: a Wall Street Journal documentary on the self-propelled bicycle world record of 184 mph (296 kph) set by Denise Mueller-Korenek. To be clear, she was not unassisted, she had an extremely fast specialized car driving directly in front that she was drafting behind using it as a wind break - but she was able to otherwise maintain 184 mph without fighting air resistance. From a Steelrunner wearing Plate perspective, you're asking if the cyclist were to pedal even faster and try to push the car to go even faster - which is trying to accelerate the mass of car and a larger surface area at the extremely high resistive forces at play... and I just don't think it's going to help. The one caveat is that Plate is presumably more heat resistive than a Steelrunner, so if you have that much power to spend, then maybe you can go faster at an exorbitantly expensive cost with other magics to assist you.

That said, Plate is an amplifier in that it takes it's cues for how fast to move, how hard to hit from the Shardbearer, so a Shardbearer will get tired eventually, depending on the damage possible before the Plate itself runs low for power-assist. Personal enhancement of this variety, be it a Blessing of Potency, A-Pewter, or Stormlight itself that enhances stamina will mitigate that. 

As for other powers, if it's not personally your own Plate gained via the Nahel Bond through Oaths, don't count on it working through Plate - and no idea even if it is your own Plate. Szeth as the Assassin in White never kept dead Plate as it would have interfered with his Surgebinding and that's at least in the same Honor/Cultivation magic family. In the second time we see the Starfalls vision, the Radiant Dalinar replaces apparently had to dismiss her armor so that the accompanying 4th+ Ideal Windrunner could Lash her, so even for trusted allies this interference remains. No idea the extent of interference for your own personally bonded Plate spren, maybe Hoid will answer this for us some day. 

I really like this point. Pewter may not add more speed with plate than without it. But the benefit to pewter in plate is that the user would never feel fatigue so long as they have pewter to spare. The strength benefits of pewter likely not shine through plate (perhaps with duralumin it could)  

As for F pewter I sort of think the plate would limit it as well since it would be harder to swell up and gain the bulk. 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

That said, Plate is an amplifier in that it takes it's cues for how fast to move, how hard to hit from the Shardbearer, so a Shardbearer will get tired eventually, depending on the damage possible before the Plate itself runs low for power-assist. Personal enhancement of this variety, be it a Blessing of Potency, A-Pewter, or Stormlight itself that enhances stamina will mitigate that. 

Yeah, an amplifier is the right term. 

7 hours ago, therunner said:

I'd say that no, it is not.

Shardplate is meant to be powered armor analogue, and those simply use their own strength.

Not really true, took me a while to find this quote - WoK ch 28:

Quote

Chips sprayed, bouncing of his Plate. He was beginning to feel worn and tired. The Plate didn’t do the work for him—it enhanced his strength, so each strike of the hammer was his own. His fingers were growing numb from the repeated vibration of the hammer’s haft. He was close to a decision. His mind was calm, clear.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yeah, an amplifier is the right term. 

Not really true, took me a while to find this quote - WoK ch 28:

I remembered it being an equalizer. It could be that by the time you are talking 10x normal human strength there just isn't a noticeable difference between user strength to begin with. Perhaps a pewter burner could be enhanced more.  If it so be that the movement speed of the plate is limited to the ability of the user inside of it... and each step in your run is boosted by the plate then I would say a pewter burner sprinting in plate may actually see a larger gap than the strength itself. 

If strength of plate wearer becomes 10x normal and strength of a pewter arm is 11x normal the difference is such a small amount. It may not look like anything. 

But if someone with pewter can run 20-30%faster than normal and you put that into plate the plate would enhance the strength of each stride and I think it would be an even bigger difference in plate. 

[therunner]

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

Not really true, took me a while to find this quote - WoK ch 28:

Dalinar still has to do the work of moving his own body, that does not mean that the actual strength output is in any way affect by his own strength.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

that does not mean that the actual strength output is in any way affect by his own strength

Of course it is affected by his strength, or we could not possibly have scenes like Renarin learning to eat in Plate (little strength, fine motor skills). A small action with little muscular strength does not engage the full strength of the Plate - the enhancement is proportional to the effort involved in the action (and likely influenced by Intent as well - at least subconsciously). 

Also, reinforced by this scene in WoK (Ch 69):

Spoiler

“Worried?” she asked. Her eyes met his, and for the first time, he noticed their redness. “I was terrified.”

And then Dalinar found himself grabbing her in an embrace. He had to be careful as he was in Shardplate, but the gauntlets let him feel the silk of her dress, and his missing helm let him smell the sweet floral scent of her perfumed soap. He held her as tightly as he dared, bowing his head and pressing his nose into her hair.

So a gentle touch is still enhanced, but far less so. A powerful swing of the hammer is enhanced to the full strength of the plate.

Thinking about it, if the enhancement were not proportional to the effort expended, then Shardbearers would be unable to walk; since every step would propel them in a run at the Plate's full strength. . .

[Duxredux]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Of course it is affected by his strength, or we could not possibly have scenes like Renarin learning to eat in Plate (little strength, fine motor skills). A small action with little muscular strength does not engage the full strength of the Plate - the enhancement is proportional to the effort involved in the action (and likely influenced by Intent as well - at least subconsciously). 

Also, reinforced by this scene in WoK (Ch 69):

  Hide contents

“Worried?” she asked. Her eyes met his, and for the first time, he noticed their redness. “I was terrified.”

And then Dalinar found himself grabbing her in an embrace. He had to be careful as he was in Shardplate, but the gauntlets let him feel the silk of her dress, and his missing helm let him smell the sweet floral scent of her perfumed soap. He held her as tightly as he dared, bowing his head and pressing his nose into her hair.

So a gentle touch is still enhanced, but far less so. A powerful swing of the hammer is enhanced to the full strength of the plate.

Thinking about it, if the enhancement were not proportional to the effort expended, then Shardbearers would be unable to walk; since every step would propel them in a run at the Plate's full strength. . .

Well... I think the semantics here is that the strength of Dalinar's motions is the UI input that determines the output of the Shardplate - but Dalinar doesn't actually affect the maximum output of his Shardplate any more than how strongly you press the gas pedal affects the top speed of a car. As a user interface, Shardplate is an amplifier in that it lets you do things that you can't normally do while using the same movements you usually do - it's a really intuitive system that is hideously complicated IRL (false positives on motion detection for full-body strength assist - yikes). Yes, Plate amplifies, but I think the idea is that if you had Dalinar and Adolin arm wrestle, no matter who won that round it would be an effective tie for the Plate rematch. In a single sentence, I think Plate amplifies to a maximum at which point performance plateaus. 

I probably should have clarified the original post earlier - when we ask "is Shardplate additive" you wanted to know if it adds strength on top of existing strength and ignoring the obvious benefits of handing someone full Plate? I still don't think so, but... you can get away with more because it's flat out some of the most durable materials we know. It would help by default in same way that wearing brass knuckles lets you punch harder because you are hitting with a harder material, you have more mass to use, and you are less likely to break you knuckles in the process even without strength enhancement. 

Edited March 12 by Duxredux

[Treamayne]

3 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Well... I think the semantics here is that Dalinar's strength of his motions is the UI input that determines the output of the Shardplate - but Dalinar doesn't actually affect the maximum output of his Shardplate any more than how strongly you press the gas pedal affects the top speed of a car. As a user interface, Shardplate is an amplifier in that it lets you do things that you can't normally do while using the same movements you usually do - it's a really intuitive system that is hideously complicated IRL (false positives on motion detection for strength assist - yikes). Yes, Plate amplifies, but I think the idea is that if you had Dalinar and Adolin arm wrestle, no matter who won that round it would be an effective tie for the Plate rematch. In a single sentence, I think Plate amplifies to a maximum at which point performance plateaus. 

I think we are on the same page. The post to which I was responding seemed to imply any amount of force results in maximum output (e.g. a "swat" like you would a shoo a fly hits just as hard as a full damage-intended slap), and that was what I was trying to point out as not likely to be correct.

4 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

It would help by default in same way that wearing brass knuckles lets you punch harder because you are hitting with a harder material

If I understand your sentence correctly, that's a myth.

Brass knuckles do not "let you punch harder" - they simply do more damage to the opponent (or thing) with less damage to you for the same amount of applied force (note, less damage =/= no damage, training injuries with brass knuckles from improper use are not uncommon).

Yes, I have hit a force meters (like StrikeMeter) with and without brass knuckles. Yes, downward strikes can benefit (slightly) from the added weight, just as straight or upward strikes are inhibited by the weight (slightly slower strikes, can be mitigated by practice and training). 

Now, I apologize if by "harder" you only meant more damage, not more applied force. 

[Duxredux]

33 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

If I understand your sentence correctly, that's a myth.

Brass knuckles do not "let you punch harder" - they simply do more damage to the opponent (or thing) with less damage to you for the same amount of applied force (note, less damage =/= no damage, training injuries with brass knuckles from improper use are not uncommon).

Yes, I have hit a force meters (like StrikeMeter) with and without brass knuckles. Yes, downward strikes can benefit (slightly) from the added weight, just as straight or upward strikes are inhibited by the weight (slightly slower strikes, can be mitigated by practice and training). 

Now, I apologize if by "harder" you only meant more damage, not more applied force. 

Yay practical experience! Bad example then, I should have used the one about how American football players get really bad head injuries because they over trust their protective equipment. Looking back, I forgot to state the key idea that went with that in that wearing brass knuckles might let someone (particularly someone who didn't know how much punching something while wearing a set hurts) psychologically punch harder than someone with bare knuckles and no other reinforcement. Shardbearers are trained to trust in the protective effects of Shardplate by repeatedly diving off of buildings and landing on their head, and so they can commit themselves to actions that anyone sane (or unconditioned to override this element of self-preservation) would balk at without protection.

Edited March 12 by Duxredux

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Yay practical experience! Bad example then, I should have used the one about how football players get really bad head injuries because they over trust their protective equipment. Looking back, I forgot to state the key idea that went with that in that wearing brass knuckles might let someone (particularly someone who didn't know how much punching something while wearing a set hurts) psychologically punch harder than someone with bare knuckles and no other reinforcement. Shardbearers are trained to trust in the protective effects of Shardplate by repeatedly diving off of buildings and land on their head, and so they can commit themselves to actions that anyone sane (or unconditioned to override this element of self-preservation) would balk at without protection.

Concur. Just like the "shardblades are light" myth that was Jossed in WoR where Zahel had to clarify (paraphrased) "light in respect to somebody who knows how much a broadsword should weigh and expects something much heavier based on size." Novice fighters will think (often subconciously based on film media) "oh, this metal thing means I can hit anything as hard as I want with no bad effects" and subsequently break their carpus/metacarpus/phalanxes. But then there are also many other factors involved like the mechanics of actually punching correctly (much less punching with Knuckles correctly). 

All weapons (including Plate) are tools, and need training to be used properly (or risk the consequences of using them improperly). 

[therunner]

45 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I think we are on the same page. The post to which I was responding seemed to imply any amount of force results in maximum output (e.g. a "swat" like you would a shoo a fly hits just as hard as a full damage-intended slap), and that was what I was trying to point out as not likely to be correct.

Apologies for being unclear.
I meant it the same way @Duxredux explained it, i.e. Plate magnifies input, but top-power of Plate is limited and is not additive with native strength of the user.

My post was merely to reply to alder24 as to why Dalinar is tired despite using Plate.

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, therunner said:

5 hours ago, therunner said:

strength output is in any way affect by his own strength

Apologies for being unclear.
I meant it the same way @Duxredux explained it, i.e. Plate magnifies input, but top-power of Plate is limited and is not additive with native strength of the user.

My post was merely to reply to alder24 as to why Dalinar is tired despite using Plate.

No worries. I think it was the "in any way" phrasology that got me (it seemes to imply both the low and high end of the enhancement curve, not just top-end).