Who can beat a shardbearer and keep their shards

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

28 minutes ago, Colors said:

To me Feruchemist is going to come down to how much of different attributes they have stored up. They aren't going to be storing anything in the moment, but if they have a healthy store of F-steel, F-gold, F-Iron, and F-Pewter I think they could make VERY quick work of a Shardbearer. Tapping strength and then using speed and weight to amplify their blows would smash right through plate and then just tap gold to heal any self-inflicted injuries. Shadplate cracks fairly easily to blunt force in the grand scheme of things. Someone manipulating F-steel and F-iron would become a human wrecking ball. 

I am always a huge fan of that imagery.  There have been a lot of theories explaining that something in the realmatics with feruchemy would shed the kinetic energy gains from increased weight and speed though. Honestly why I am more a fan of F steel with A pewter as the A pewter kinetic energy gains from boosted speed and strength are what it exists for and F steel would allow you to maximize the gains by compressing them into shorter time (metal burns faster when tapping steel and more metal tapped means more power gained). 

The additional benefits of an A pewter F steel combo are that you also get the durability boost from pewter and would be far less likely to break anything leading to a need of gold healing anyways. 

[Colors]

11 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I am always a huge fan of that imagery.  There have been a lot of theories explaining that something in the realmatics with feruchemy would shed the kinetic energy gains from increased weight and speed though. Honestly why I am more a fan of F steel with A pewter as the A pewter kinetic energy gains from boosted speed and strength are what it exists for and F steel would allow you to maximize the gains by compressing them into shorter time (metal burns faster when tapping steel and more metal tapped means more power gained). 

The additional benefits of an A pewter F steel combo are that you also get the durability boost from pewter and would be far less likely to break anything leading to a need of gold healing anyways. 

Absolutely, only reason I didn't mention A-Pewter is my response was about a feruchemist, who wouldn't have access to Allomancy. 

[Trusk'our]

27 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I am always a huge fan of that imagery.  There have been a lot of theories explaining that something in the realmatics with feruchemy would shed the kinetic energy gains from increased weight and speed though. Honestly why I am more a fan of F steel with A pewter as the A pewter kinetic energy gains from boosted speed and strength are what it exists for and F steel would allow you to maximize the gains by compressing them into shorter time (metal burns faster when tapping steel and more metal tapped means more power gained). 

The additional benefits of an A pewter F steel combo are that you also get the durability boost from pewter and would be far less likely to break anything leading to a need of gold healing anyways. 

Oh yeah. A A-pewter/F-steel Twinborn would absolutely stomp a full Shardbearer as long as they had some prep time.

And considering that they can siphon off extra speed from Burning pewter for Tapping later, it's almost like a lesser version of Compounding (and seeing as A-pewter seems to speed you up quite a bit, you could Store a LOT of speed). 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

16 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Oh yeah. A A-pewter/F-steel Twinborn would absolutely stomp a full Shardbearer as long as they had some prep time.

And considering that they can siphon off extra speed from Burning pewter for Tapping later, it's almost like a lesser version of Compounding (and seeing as A-pewter seems to speed you up quite a bit, you could Store a LOT of speed). 

I feel like the only downside to it is that savantism would be that much closer and pewterarms just happen to die younger than other savants haha. 

[Trusk'our]

2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I feel like the only downside to it is that savantism would be that much closer and pewterarms just happen to die younger than other savants haha. 

I mean, it certainly could be. Especially since their powerset encourages them to Burn pewter almost constantly. 

But that in and of itself could become another benefit, as Savants Burn their metals more efficiently, which would be of particular use to this pewter guzzling Twinborn. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120/#e1901

[Colors]

So question:

Investiture resists investiture, that's why you can't lash someone in plate. 

So if Lift made a surface slick would it not interact as if it was slick if someone was wearing shardplate? Like if she made the whole floor slick, would someone with shardplate be able to walk on it normally?

[Trusk'our]

18 minutes ago, Colors said:

So question:

Investiture resists investiture, that's why you can't lash someone in plate. 

So if Lift made a surface slick would it not interact as if it was slick if someone was wearing shardplate? Like if she made the whole floor slick, would someone with shardplate be able to walk on it normally?

You know, I hadn't thought of that before. 

I would say that it depends on whether the slickness functions by affecting the ground's axi which then have an effect on the Plate, or whether it functions by directly affecting the Plate walking on it.

If it's a direct form of interaction, then I would say that the Plate is effectively immune to that sort of trick. If it's indirect, the Plate should still be affected by Lift's Surge.

[alder24]

18 minutes ago, Colors said:

So question:

Investiture resists investiture, that's why you can't lash someone in plate. 

So if Lift made a surface slick would it not interact as if it was slick if someone was wearing shardplate? Like if she made the whole floor slick, would someone with shardplate be able to walk on it normally?

It would make it slick because its investiture isn't targeted at the plate specifically. Lashing a Shardplate doesn't work because the plate is invested and you need to first overcome that investiture, overwrite and invest it to lash it in some direction - and that would require a ridiculous amount of Stormlight. Abrasion applied on the ground is not acting against Shardplate directly. You don't invest (or act against) the plate specifically, that's when "investiture resist investiture" applies.

However I think Lift would be unable to make the surface of a Shardplate slick directly - because she would be trying to change properties of a heavily invested Shardplate which would resist, just like it would resist being Lashed. Dead Shardplate, or Shardplates of other Radiants, her Shardplate can become Awesome (for the same reason Kaladin can Lash himself in his plate).

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Just now, Trusk'our said:

I mean, it certainly could be. Especially since their powerset encourages them to Burn pewter almost constantly. 

But that in and of itself could become another benefit, as Savants Burn their metals more efficiently, which would be of particular use to this pewter guzzling Twinborn. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120/#e1901

A case where tapping pain via F tin might prove useful to remind the savant they are still mortal. 

I love the pewter steel combo. (Especially on a kandra platform!) I mostly mentioned the combo as an alternative to the full feruchemist using steel and iron. I have seen a lot of cased made saying you can't hit harder with any kind of feruchemy other than pewter which breaks my heart. 

As much as it is one of my favorite systems I think you can tell that it was one of Brandon's early systems just because he has had to play some damage control on the outrageous potential of some of those physical metals. 

I will never understand how someone weighing 2000 lbs can sit on you and recieve all of the benefits of being 2000lbs but they can't hit harder with a punch. 

Same with steel. The MAG has a Brandon's thought stating that hitting someone with a bar at high speed would likely break your hands as you hold it... but then other wobs suggest that the gained kinetic energy would be way too minimal to really matter. 

I feel like he wants Feruchemy to be steel for faster movement but not if you have a weapon, iron for bonus to pushes and pulls and just to be massive unless it will benefit your throwing hands in which case the spiritual realm eats it up. 

Yet... I feel like maybe there are a lot of uses that typical users don't see. Perhaps the reason we don't see anyone punch or hit harder on screen is because they haven't had specific intent to do so?  

27 minutes ago, Colors said:

So question:

Investiture resists investiture, that's why you can't lash someone in plate. 

So if Lift made a surface slick would it not interact as if it was slick if someone was wearing shardplate? Like if she made the whole floor slick, would someone with shardplate be able to walk on it normally?

This is a good question. I would draw the line at this idea... what are you trying to effect?  Wax can't push on plate but he could slap a coin against plate, tap thousands of pounds pushing on that coin, flatten it against the plate and the shardbearer would tumble through the air. 

You can't lash plate itself but you can hit it with a rock that has been lashed. 

So you couldn't make the plate slick directly but slicking up the floor should work really well at making an impossible zone for plate.  

 

[Colors]

6 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

A case where tapping pain via F tin might prove useful to remind the savant they are still mortal. 

I love the pewter steel combo. (Especially on a kandra platform!) I mostly mentioned the combo as an alternative to the full feruchemist using steel and iron. I have seen a lot of cased made saying you can't hit harder with any kind of feruchemy other than pewter which breaks my heart. 

As much as it is one of my favorite systems I think you can tell that it was one of Brandon's early systems just because he has had to play some damage control on the outrageous potential of some of those physical metals. 

I will never understand how someone weighing 2000 lbs can sit on you and recieve all of the benefits of being 2000lbs but they can't hit harder with a punch. 

Same with steel. The MAG has a Brandon's thought stating that hitting someone with a bar at high speed would likely break your hands as you hold it... but then other wobs suggest that the gained kinetic energy would be way too minimal to really matter. 

I feel like he wants Feruchemy to be steel for faster movement but not if you have a weapon, iron for bonus to pushes and pulls and just to be massive unless it will benefit your throwing hands in which case the spiritual realm eats it up. 

Yet... I feel like maybe there are a lot of uses that typical users don't see. Perhaps the reason we don't see anyone punch or hit harder on screen is because they haven't had specific intent to do so?  

This is a good question. I would draw the line at this idea... what are you trying to effect?  Wax can't push on plate but he could slap a coin against plate, tap thousands of pounds pushing on that coin, flatten it against the plate and the shardbearer would tumble through the air. 

You can't lash plate itself but you can hit it with a rock that has been lashed. 

So you couldn't make the plate slick directly but slicking up the floor should work really well at making an impossible zone for plate.  

 

Doesn't Wax increase his weight to plow his shoulder through a door at some point? Isn't that the same premise?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

40 minutes ago, Colors said:

Doesn't Wax increase his weight to plow his shoulder through a door at some point? Isn't that the same premise?

Without digging up some old threads there were some WoBs sighted by others suggesting that you can't punch harder with iron. 

I personally think that there has to be some bonus but we haven't seen it used optimally. A big part of it is that as you tap weight you may gain the strength to not get crushed by it but you don't gain the strength to move the same. You get more sluggish and slow. 

In combination this could potentially do more as you would maintain higher speeds and higher weight combined.  

But we have these. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Does Iron store mass or weight?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The thing is it really does involve mass, but I’m breaking some physics rules, basically. I have to break a number of physics rules in order to make Magic work in the first place. Those whole laws of Thermodynamics, I’m like “You are my bane!” (laughter) But I try to work within the framework, and I have reasonings built up for myself, and some of them have to be kind of arbitrary. But the thing is, it does store mass if you look at how it interacts, but when a Feruchemist punches someone, you’re not having a mass transference of a 1000 pounds transferring the mass into someone else.

So there are a few little tweaks. You can go talk to Peter, because Peter has the actual math. Oh Peter’s back there. Peter is dressed up as Allomancer Jak from the broadsheet. In fact we’re giving some out broadsheets, aren’t we Peter. So when you come through the line, we’re giving out Broadsheets. Please don’t take fifty—I think we might have enough for everybody. The broadsheets are the newspaper from the Alloy of Law time. It’s an inworld newspaper. It’s actually reproduced in the book in four different pages, and we put it together in one big broadsheet.

So anyway, you can talk with him, he’s got more of the math of it. I explained the concept to Peter and he’s better with the actual math, so he said “We’ll figure it out.”

Alloy of Law release party (Nov. 7, 2011)

Feruchemy breaks a ton of rules. And it is kind of very inconsistent on the page. Iron especially is impossible to find out. He says the math is out there but we won't see it for a very very long time. 

 

 

[Colors]

13 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Without digging up some old threads there were some WoBs sighted by others suggesting that you can't punch harder with iron. 

I personally think that there has to be some bonus but we haven't seen it used optimally. A big part of it is that as you tap weight you may gain the strength to not get crushed by it but you don't gain the strength to move the same. You get more sluggish and slow. 

In combination this could potentially do more as you would maintain higher speeds and higher weight combined.  

But we have these. 

  Hide contents

Questioner

Does Iron store mass or weight?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The thing is it really does involve mass, but I’m breaking some physics rules, basically. I have to break a number of physics rules in order to make Magic work in the first place. Those whole laws of Thermodynamics, I’m like “You are my bane!” (laughter) But I try to work within the framework, and I have reasonings built up for myself, and some of them have to be kind of arbitrary. But the thing is, it does store mass if you look at how it interacts, but when a Feruchemist punches someone, you’re not having a mass transference of a 1000 pounds transferring the mass into someone else.

So there are a few little tweaks. You can go talk to Peter, because Peter has the actual math. Oh Peter’s back there. Peter is dressed up as Allomancer Jak from the broadsheet. In fact we’re giving some out broadsheets, aren’t we Peter. So when you come through the line, we’re giving out Broadsheets. Please don’t take fifty—I think we might have enough for everybody. The broadsheets are the newspaper from the Alloy of Law time. It’s an inworld newspaper. It’s actually reproduced in the book in four different pages, and we put it together in one big broadsheet.

So anyway, you can talk with him, he’s got more of the math of it. I explained the concept to Peter and he’s better with the actual math, so he said “We’ll figure it out.”

Alloy of Law release party (Nov. 7, 2011)

Feruchemy breaks a ton of rules. And it is kind of very inconsistent on the page. Iron especially is impossible to find out. He says the math is out there but we won't see it for a very very long time. 

 

 

Found the instance I was thinking of...

1. Spoiler

   He tapped his metalmind, increasing his weight, then threw his shoulder against the wall. This was tricky, as his strength hadn’t increased except in its ability to lift his own limbs and manipulate his heavier muscles. That lent him some ability, but mostly he had to try to force things just right so that he was falling into the wall as much as pushing on it.

    

Yeah, he says it's tricky and he basically has to fall (letting gravity do the work), he can't just use his momentum and mass. Or maybe he can use momentum, he just can't use the "strength" granted to move his increased weight...it isn't really clear, but the WoB suggests it's not momentum, so must be the effect of gravity on the weight as he is kind of falling into the wall. 

Shame, that would be useful...and broken probably.

Edited February 23 by Colors

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Colors said:

Doesn't Wax increase his weight to plow his shoulder through a door at some point? Isn't that the same premise?

He did. Not once. AoL ch 19:

Quote

He hit the door at the end of the hallway. It was locked. A healthy dose of increased weight—along with some momentum and a shoulder—fixed that. He crashed through and found himself in a small windowless room with no other doors.

SoS ch 2:

Quote

The metal in the next room dropped to the floor. Wax threw himself against the wall, increasing his weight, cracking the plaster. Another slam with his shoulder smashed through, and he broke into the next room, weapon raised, looking for his target.

 

Edit: The trick is not to punch, but use momentum and throw your entire body at something while increasing your mass. But a Shardplate can withstand a lot of force, we've seen Dalinar stopping the entire claw of a Chasmfiend. The force of the impact would be distributed over the large area of the plate, minimizing damage done to it. Not to mention you would be in range of the Shardblade, you are more likely to get killed first then to use this tactic effectively.

Edited February 23 by alder24

[Colors]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

He did. Not once. AoL ch 19:

SoS ch 2:

 

Edit: The trick is not to punch, but use momentum and throw your entire body at something while increasing your mass. But a Shardplate can withstand a lot of force, we've seen Dalinar stopping the entire claw of a Chasmfiend. The force of the impact would be distributed over the large area of the plate, minimizing damage done to it. Not to mention you would be in range of the Shardblade, you are more likely to get killed first then to use this tactic effectively.

Yeah, I'd never suggest using this tactic alone. My original question was whether doing that while tapping F-steel to increase your speed would basically create a super-speed battering ram.

The mechanics of catching the claw are different, I wouldn't classify that as an impact because it isn't a direct impact with the plate per se like being shot with a bullet or punched. We know that cracking plate is much easier with a blunt impact of force applied perpendicular to the armor's surface, this is the type of damage we see most often cracking shadplate.  When you catch something the force as you say is distributed differently, and since this is a suit of armor the direction the force is applied is important. Moreover, the mechanics of the human body catching something help to dissipate the energy through some of the controlled give and flexibility of the joints. Dalinar bent with the blow, which significantly reduces the peak force applied to the armor, just like bending your knees when you jump from a height can halve the peak force applied.  I don't think the chasmfiend claw catching feat is really a valid comparison for these purposes, but when he is bludgeoned by the chasmfiend's tail that is probably a fair point of comparison. Then again, Parshendi slinging head-sized rocks is enough to crack the plate so I think that's a pit of a discrepancy there. Even accounting for the force being spread over a significantly larger area I'm not sure the rocks would apply more peak force than the tail did. Maybe I'm wrong though, I don't have the time to run the math. 

Edited February 23 by Colors

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

29 minutes ago, Colors said:

Yeah, I'd never suggest using this tactic alone. My original question was whether doing that while tapping F-steel to increase your speed would basically create a super-speed battering ram.

The mechanics of catching the claw are different, I wouldn't classify that as an impact because it isn't a direct impact with the plate per se like being shot with a bullet or punched. We know that cracking plate is much easier with a blunt impact of force applied perpendicular to the armor's surface, this is the type of damage we see most often cracking shadplate.  When you catch something the force as you say is distributed differently, and since this is a suit of armor the direction the force is applied is important. Moreover, the mechanics of the human body catching something help to dissipate the energy through some of the controlled give and flexibility of the joints. Dalinar bent with the blow, which significantly reduces the peak force applied to the armor, just like bending your knees when you jump from a height can halve the peak force applied.  I don't think the chasmfiend claw catching feat is really a valid comparison for these purposes, but when he is bludgeoned by the chasmfiend's tail that is probably a fair point of comparison. Then again, Parshendi slinging head-sized rocks is enough to crack the plate so I think that's a pit of a discrepancy there. Even accounting for the force being spread over a significantly larger area I'm not sure the rocks would apply more peak force than the tail did. Maybe I'm wrong though, I don't have the time to run the math. 

Also, and this may be less of a point. 

Can we really say how much weight a massive beast is when we know they are bound to a spren to make them lighter? 

Rosharans haven't even convinced a chasm fiend onto a scale to weigh it and get measurements.  They only have dead weight to consider. 

Not saying it wasn't impressive to catch it. Also not saying that Dalinar may have pulled on a one time feat being close to oaths the same way Kal did when killing a shardbearer. 

[alder24]

37 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Can we really say how much weight a massive beast is when we know they are bound to a spren to make them lighter? 

It wasn't weight alone, it was also massive strength pressing on Dalinar's plate. By @Colors points are valid. But those were also my points - the best comparison on how a Shardplate would withstand someone taping a lot of mass, was shown by Dalinar catching the claw of a Chasmfiend - in both cases forces were enormous, but distributed over larger surface area, the Shardbearer would fall (just like Dalinar was bending) which means the energy of the impact would be spread in time, thus it would lessen damage done by it, the direction of the force applied also would not be ideal etc. All of those factors would allow a Shardplate to do its job and not break easily.

But yeah, it's still possible to break a plate with this tactic, however it's simply too impractical and risky to even try that

[Duxredux]

tl;dr, I suggest we look at expanding the discussion to the task of "Winning Shards" and not just beating the Shardbearer

Now this is beyond the scope of the original post, but I feel like it's worth mentioning how the powers we see at the very beginning of the Stormlight Archive are significantly different from nearly every other accessible magic system based on the following distinction: if you kill a Shardbearer or wielder of an Honorblade you gain full access to their powers relatively quickly and you can freely trade that power around. This is different from all of the genetic systems (Allomancy, Feruchemy, Sand Mastery), cultural adoption systems (Elantrian, Dakhor), symbiosis (Radiants and Aetherbound generally need consent), and Identity based technically transferrable goods (Soul Stamps, Breath). Hemalurgy can be used to steal powers and spikes can be harvested from fallen Hemalurgists but they require compromising your own soul and aren't easily exchangeable. Medallions are the closest to easily and freely transferrable power, and being metal they are hardier than most, but are nowhere close to as hardy as Shards and frankly aren't as busted (yet).

On a battlefield, I would expect a fallen Shardbearer to be the most highly contested ground on the whole field. Because of this Shardbearers are generally deployed with this in mind - if the Shardbearer falls on a battlefield then their honor guard needs to do their absolute best to recover the Shards otherwise they will have to face those same Shards in the next battle. It's why backup Shardbearers are trained or sometimes made the primary user of the Shards for the nobility. Dalinar thinks about this pretty much every time he outruns his honor guard, and this is why I think Helaran wasn't the best Shardbearer because of how far he extended himself beyond the aid of his own army and lost the Shards. Beating a Shardbearer isn't really the goal, it's winning their Shards, because the bearer is replaceable while the Plate and Blade persist.

So... it's not in the scope of the original post, and I'm continuing with one of my earlier thoughts about how Shardbearers are rarely deployed alone (there's the old adage that Shardbearers can't hold ground), but I feel like a significant condition that almost everyone will want to add to beating a Shardbearer is recovering the Shards after the fact, for the obvious reason that you have them and your enemies don't. In some cases this conditional will be naturally fulfilled, like a Pewterarm managing to get a killing hit through a crack or visor can probably deal with an honor guard, particularly if equipped with a newly acquired Shardblade, but it won't be a bygone conclusion in every case. Once a Shardbearer dies, the armor will fall off of them (at least it did in the scene with Helaran), so it's not in a tidy contiguous unit to drag back home, and you'll need to recover the majority of the Plate components as whoever has the most can feed Stormlight into it to recover the rest. It takes considerable time to don Plate, and it has to be assembled from the feet up to allow the Bearer to support the tremendous weight - so putting on the Plate and wearing it home requires you to basically have conquered that area or have sufficient support to protect you while you get geared up.

Thus, if you send Lifeless insects to attack the Shardbearer, you'll want Awakened ropes on standby to drag the Shards once they go down. Simply deploying aerial bombardment on a Shardbearer won't remove their Shards in a war, you'll want to retrieve them as well or have to face them again the next bout. This is why I think super risky last ditch efforts like a double Iron compounder jumping on a Shardbearer isn't as useful as it sounds if they have no way to carry it back home. They can probably grab the Shardblade, but their powerset isn't the best at recovering  the Plate. Best option I have is jumping on and crushing the majority of the armor and bringing home the sole remaining piece. This does introduce uncertainty into the debate, since it's undefined what they are recovering Shards from, but it does make me expect that expensive ranged attacks are less likely to be deployed against Shardbearer if there's no option for recovery.

[Returned]

13 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

I suggest we look at expanding the discussion to the task of "Winning Shards" and not just beating the Shardbearer

It's an interesting angle but as you note is totally separate from the discussion here. If we're just talking about a classic "versus" thread, then the recovery is less important: if your powers are sufficient to defeat a Shardbearer once, then they will be again (presumably-- matchups that can go either way might not be so sanguine about it). Shards are kind of limited in their flexibility. Regardless, once the Shardbearer is dead and the Blade available it should be easier to destroy more of the Plate because you can just bash the one with the other.

I think that assuming an honor guard, or any other people on the field aligned with one participant, radically changes the nature of the question. If the Shardbearer gets a dozen extra soldiers, why does the other combatant get nothing?

What is the context of the broader conflict in which the Shards will be re-deployed, by either side? if we're talking about something like an extended conflict of traditional military engagements (like the wars on Roshar) between Shardbearers and other Cosmere magic users then the main value of Shardbearers becomes that they can tie up the most versatile and effective fighters their opponents can field. This is also the way that Shardbearers get used in battles on Roshar as well: Shardbearers deal with other Shardbearers because no one else can reliably prevent them from dominating the field. And since it's hard to use the Shards without nontrivial training, I would imagine that depriving opponents of them is by far the most important goal-- well beyond trying to use them yourself.

If we're opening the discussion up in that direction, I think that Shards become a lot less valuable in nearly every way. It's like Adolin notes in RoW: he used to be one of the, if not absolutely the, most important figures on any battlefield. Millennia of war persistently saw full Shardbearers as the apex of battlefield performance, and entire battles turned on his presence or absence. But with the advent of Radiants and Fused all over the place he becomes somewhat outclassed. The nature of battle simply changes when slaughtering hundreds of mundane soldiers is no longer sufficient to gain a durable edge, and other combatants can do more things than he can, more easily, and with more flexibility. In a world of soldiers wielding Breaths and Metallic Arts and AonDor and Sand Mastery and more, a Shardbearer is a lot more like a regular soldier than an overwhelming force. Still dangerous, still important, and sometimes very much so, but not pivotal.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

49 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

tl;dr, I suggest we look at expanding the discussion to the task of "Winning Shards" and not just beating the Shardbearer

Now this is beyond the scope of the original post, but I feel like it's worth mentioning how the powers we see at the very beginning of the Stormlight Archive are significantly different from nearly every other accessible magic system based on the following distinction: if you kill a Shardbearer or wielder of an Honorblade you gain full access to their powers relatively quickly and you can freely trade that power around. This is different from all of the genetic systems (Allomancy, Feruchemy, Sand Mastery), cultural adoption systems (Elantrian, Dakhor), symbiosis (Radiants and Aetherbound generally need consent), and Identity based technically transferrable goods (Soul Stamps, Breath). Hemalurgy can be used to steal powers and spikes can be harvested from fallen Hemalurgists but they require compromising your own soul and aren't easily exchangeable. Medallions are the closest to easily and freely transferrable power, and being metal they are hardier than most, but are nowhere close to as hardy as Shards and frankly aren't as busted (yet).

On a battlefield, I would expect a fallen Shardbearer to be the most highly contested ground on the whole field. Because of this Shardbearers are generally deployed with this in mind - if the Shardbearer falls on a battlefield then their honor guard needs to do their absolute best to recover the Shards otherwise they will have to face those same Shards in the next battle. It's why backup Shardbearers are trained or sometimes made the primary user of the Shards for the nobility. Dalinar thinks about this pretty much every time he outruns his honor guard, and this is why I think Helaran wasn't the best Shardbearer because of how far he extended himself beyond the aid of his own army and lost the Shards. Beating a Shardbearer isn't really the goal, it's winning their Shards, because the bearer is replaceable while the Plate and Blade persist.

So... it's not in the scope of the original post, and I'm continuing with one of my earlier thoughts about how Shardbearers are rarely deployed alone (there's the old adage that Shardbearers can't hold ground), but I feel like a significant condition that almost everyone will want to add to beating a Shardbearer is recovering the Shards after the fact, for the obvious reason that you have them and your enemies don't. In some cases this conditional will be naturally fulfilled, like a Pewterarm managing to get a killing hit through a crack or visor can probably deal with an honor guard, particularly if equipped with a newly acquired Shardblade, but it won't be a bygone conclusion in every case. Once a Shardbearer dies, the armor will fall off of them (at least it did in the scene with Helaran), so it's not in a tidy contiguous unit to drag back home, and you'll need to recover the majority of the Plate components as whoever has the most can feed Stormlight into it to recover the rest. It takes considerable time to don Plate, and it has to be assembled from the feet up to allow the Bearer to support the tremendous weight - so putting on the Plate and wearing it home requires you to basically have conquered that area or have sufficient support to protect you while you get geared up.

Thus, if you send Lifeless insects to attack the Shardbearer, you'll want Awakened ropes on standby to drag the Shards once they go down. Simply deploying aerial bombardment on a Shardbearer won't remove their Shards in a war, you'll want to retrieve them as well or have to face them again the next bout. This is why I think super risky last ditch efforts like a double Iron compounder jumping on a Shardbearer isn't as useful as it sounds if they have no way to carry it back home. They can probably grab the Shardblade, but their powerset isn't the best at recovering  the Plate. Best option I have is jumping on and crushing the majority of the armor and bringing home the sole remaining piece. This does introduce uncertainty into the debate, since it's undefined what they are recovering Shards from, but it does make me expect that expensive ranged attacks are less likely to be deployed against Shardbearer if there's no option for recovery.

I still think the lifeless insects are viable. If an awakener were to show up equipped for a fight they could unleash the insects. If you had a hundred flying ants attacking eyes and ears solely then you would take care of the honor guard as well as the shardbearer.  Walk in as they work themselves into a frenzy, which they will. And then clean up with an awakened rope dart or meteor hammer. The helmet will come off once those ants make it into eyes and ear canals and then the ropes can easily pick the shardbearer apart. 

Honestly I love this idea of Awakening insects so much @alder24.  I have now envisioned a new character collecting powers and items. An emotional allomancer with a small swarm of soulcast and then awakened flying ants. I really don't even care if they can inject venom after being soulcast or if it takes extra breath to make the wings work after being soulcast.  I don't think it is a huge leap to say a winged ant can fly with extra breath after being turned to metal, stone or diamond if a man soulcast to stone can get working joints and operate as an indestructible lifeless. 

 

Side question on the swarm.  Does anyone think that midnight essence aetherbound could control a swarm of midnight essence to a similar effect?  Bonus to that is the spy aspects of making a midnight essence insect and flying into rooms and listening / viewing what is in them via the connection to the essence. 

 

Another one that would do great would be a mistborn. Drop down into the group and shove them all away.  Even if they drop their weapons and come at you afterwords they will all die to the mistborn quickly. Getting the shardbearer dead is the hard part of that set up.... although I think a mistborn can do plenty.  

 

A full feruchemist could clear the area with ease thanks to steel. 

A steel compounder would have everyone dead and a knife in the eye slit before the shardbearer realizes they should defend themselves. 

As strong as shardbearers are compared to normal soldiers, when facing prepared invested entities they are still pretty low on the totem pole. 

And most invested individuals beyond some of the mundane misting and ferrings are going to make short work of a squad. 

The least amount of investiture needed to secure a set of shards I would guess is a steel ferring with a ton of storage... and I mean a ton.  If there were a rating I would say this is either equal to or better than an atium misting with a bead or two for the fight. 

Ramping it up past that you have a host of twinborn combos that could... really anything that includes F steel. 

The amount of breaths you would have to spend for 100 flying ants to become your swarm plus a cloak to protect you and a few ropes to attack I would say is more attainable than being born a mistborn or feruchemist... but it is still costly costly. But someone past the 3rd heightening I bet could do it with the swarm idea. 

[Highprince10]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

I suggest we look at expanding the discussion to the task of "Winning Shards" and not just beating the Shardbearer

Good Idea keeping shards after you win them is always difficult which is why I think 2 shardbearers work together so often if one falls the other can protect the shards till their side gets them 

[therunner]

On 2/22/2024 at 3:18 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I may be misremembering but doesn't Vin specifically mention that she stops burning pewter to be more clumsy in one of her ball room scenes? 

From the coppermind:

  Reveal hidden contents

Pewter also enhances the body's natural balance, granting almost unnaturally smooth movements. It also increases reaction speed and gives them resistance to hot and cold temperatures.

Also I like the mind over matter argument here. I think that we are just seeing the most basic uses of pewter in the books thus far. Perhaps as Scadrial starts to understand the importance of intent more pewterarms will become even more powerful.

Sure they have improved grace, but that is not why they are dangerous, the increased strength, resilience and ability to power through damage is. 

Against Shardbearer, Pewterarm is well...worse in everything with exception of grace.

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Heck even if it was a pewter arm with a shardblade against a full shardbearer I think I would bet on the pewterarm.  Their reaction speed is faster and they are moving more agily. Shardplate may make someone faster but I think something happens in the mind of the pewterarm as well that allows them to have near perfect balance and move the way they do.  I subscribe to the idea that it also boosts proprioception which is a boon that plate doesn't provide. 

Shardbearer has to hit Pewterarm once, and it is game over.
Sure, some Pewter arm might do it, but it is basically one in a hundred occurrence.

Pewterarms are slower, weaker, less durable, and are only bit more dexterous. And reflexes we have not way to say which is faster, but both are improved over baseline human.

We do see both Pewterarms and Shardbearers get hit by regular humans, so both can hit each other, but only one will lose after single hit.

On 2/22/2024 at 4:59 PM, Returned said:

That's where I think that a pewter Misting has an opportunity. I still might not bet on one to beat a Shardbearer but their enhanced mobility gives them the opportunity to avoid being hit, their enhanced strength gives them an opportunity to damage Plate by throwing things or hitting it with a melee weapon (or similar), and they don't need to overwhelm the Plate at its peak power. They just need to outlast its Stormlight reserves, speeding up its loss with opportunistic strikes, until the Plate becomes slow enough that the Misting's extra mobility becomes dominant. Once the Plate locks up, the fight is over. Pewterarm vs. Shardbearer isn't an overwhelming force contest, it's an endurance contest, and with a skilled Misting that has a decent pewter reserve the contest isn't a foregone conclusion. I'd still hate to be the Misting forced into that situation though-- even if they can win it's still a difficult and incredibly dangerous scenario for them.

Shardbearer also has enhanced mobility and reflexes, so Pewter arm will have less of an advantage than they would have against regular opponent.
And Shardbearer has to land a single good hit, once Pewterarm loses control of any single limb it is basically game over.

Problem with a lot of these tactics is that sure, they can win against Shardbearer, but they can pull it off maybe once in a hundred attempts, when everything goes right; or if they have advantage of prior knowledge of their opponent.

If we grant similar knowledge of their opponent to Shardbearer, so they too can prepare, it will start skewing back drastically. E.g. Awakened swarm, just put metallic net in the eyeslit, perhaps some Aluminum alloy or silver. Suddenly Awakener is in trouble.

Edited February 25 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Sure they have improved grace, but that is not why they are dangerous, the increased strength, resilience and ability to power through damage is. 

Against Shardbearer, Pewterarm is well...worse in everything with exception of grace.

Shardbearer has to hit Pewterarm once, and it is game over.
Sure, some Pewter arm might do it, but it is basically one in a hundred occurrence.

Pewterarms are slower, weaker, less durable, and are only bit more dexterous. And reflexes we have not way to say which is faster, but both are improved over baseline human.

We do see both Pewterarms and Shardbearers get hit by regular humans, so both can hit each other, but only one will lose after single hit.

Shardbearer also has enhanced mobility and reflexes, so Pewter arm will have less of an advantage than they would have against regular opponent.
And Shardbearer has to land a single good hit, once Pewterarm loses control of any single limb it is basically game over.

Problem with a lot of these tactics is that sure, they can win against Shardbearer, but they can pull it off maybe once in a hundred attempts, when everything goes right; or if they have advantage of prior knowledge of their opponent.

If we grant similar knowledge of their opponent to Shardbearer, so they too can prepare, it will start skewing back drastically. E.g. Awakened swarm, just put metallic net in the eyeslit, perhaps some Aluminum alloy or silver. Suddenly Awakener is in trouble.

I don't think it takes a bunch of knowledge and understanding of a shardbearers powers to understand that you can't just stab them and bash them to death. 

An allomancer will know something is wrong immediately when a big armored and massive blade wielding opponent shows up but the blue lines don't.

There doesn't need to be the word shard in front only plate to know that you should only target the open spots. Only Hollywood thinks someone in full plate can be treated like someone not in full plate. To assume that if someone knows they can't stab through or break plate due to more knowledge and not the fact that the shardbeaer is wearing armor is silly. To compare it to the shardbearer knowing that an awakener will choose to use a swarm of insects is kind of laughable. 

Anyone who sees someone in full plate armor, magical or not, is going to know that they can't win this fight traditionally. If you are an awakener you treat that fight differently whether you know about shards or not. 

A person in full plate can't just look at an awakener and know what they have. 

Assuming they know the oppositions strengths weaknesses and tactics when you are comparing a 100% visible and 100% relatable tank of the times to someone who has no armor and may or may not even carry a weapon is silly. 

The shardbearer screams danger and hard to kill from all angles. Awakeners and mistborn are sleeper builds with very little to give away what they can and cannot do. Its totally apples to oranges thinking they should be on the same level of knowledge ahead of time. 

[Colors]

38 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I don't think it takes a bunch of knowledge and understanding of a shardbearers powers to understand that you can't just stab them and bash them to death. 

An allomancer will know something is wrong immediately when a big armored and massive blade wielding opponent shows up but the blue lines don't.

There doesn't need to be the word shard in front only plate to know that you should only target the open spots. Only Hollywood thinks someone in full plate can be treated like someone not in full plate. To assume that if someone knows they can't stab through or break plate due to more knowledge and not the fact that the shardbeaer is wearing armor is silly. To compare it to the shardbearer knowing that an awakener will choose to use a swarm of insects is kind of laughable. 

Anyone who sees someone in full plate armor, magical or not, is going to know that they can't win this fight traditionally. If you are an awakener you treat that fight differently whether you know about shards or not. 

A person in full plate can't just look at an awakener and know what they have. 

Assuming they know the oppositions strengths weaknesses and tactics when you are comparing a 100% visible and 100% relatable tank of the times to someone who has no armor and may or may not even carry a weapon is silly. 

The shardbearer screams danger and hard to kill from all angles. Awakeners and mistborn are sleeper builds with very little to give away what they can and cannot do. Its totally apples to oranges thinking they should be on the same level of knowledge ahead of time. 

Blue lines would only apply to Steelpushers, Steel Inquisitors or Mistborn though. 

A Pewterarm doesn't have steel sight.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

10 minutes ago, Colors said:

Blue lines would only apply to Steelpushers, Steel Inquisitors or Mistborn though. 

A Pewterarm doesn't have steel sight.

I get that. It still stands that metalborn are not flamboyant in their mere existance. Shardplate and shardblades stand out immediately. Shardblades scream danger no matter what.  Shardplate screams tank no matter what. 

Allomancers and metalborn whisper of ordinary and mundane. 

To supposed that a shardbearer would know of their opponents abilities because the opponent knows how dangerous the shardbearer is just seems disingenuous.  

We all know that the shardbearer is a dangerous individual. Like armies unto themselves. Why should we assume they can look upon and unarmored individual and place netting to stop bugs in their visor thanks to knowing the opponent. They may be apprehensive seeing someone stepping up to fight them without shards of their own. But there is nothing about awakeners (minus an aura that nearly noone notices on Zahel for 4 books) or metalborn that would give away the fact that they may be dangerous. 

A shardbearer is a walking talking warning sign of caution and danger. 

[Returned]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Shardbearer also has enhanced mobility and reflexes, so Pewter arm will have less of an advantage than they would have against regular opponent.

The point I was trying to make, maybe unclearly, is that the Shardbearer's enhancements to speed eventually hit a point where they degrade with every passing second. Shardplate isn't really operable without at least some Stormlight to power it, it leaks Stormlight through cracks, and any damage to the armor consumes additional Stormlight to repair, while the pewterarm's capacities are enhanced to about the same level as long as they have more than zero pewter in their stomach (leaving aside flaring). The pewter also does a lot of the work for the Misting, even when physically exhausted (such as during a pewter drag), while the Shardbearer's abilities are enhanced but not replaced by the armor (I think it's Dalinar who notes this when digging the latrine trench: the armor lets you do more work, but you don't get less weary from it).

So, if we're assuming enough pewter to last for the duration (which I know is pretty contrived, but for the sake of argument), the core strategy for the Misting is to not get hit, at any cost, because (as you note) being hit could be devastating. The Misting won't tire as quickly, and so won't slow or become sloppy due to fatigue, while the Shardbearer will tire at a normal rate. The Shardbearer is also on a clock no matter what they do, as the Stormlight inexorably is consumed just to keep the armor functioning.

A matchup between a Shardbearer with dead Plate and Blade versus a pewter Misting is most favorable to the Shardbearer at the very beginning and inevitably becomes less favorable for them as the fight goes on. The pewter Misting's performance only degrades if they are hit (though, in that case, the degradation is likely to be very severe). So for every second that passes in which the Shardbearer has not already won, the fight increasingly favors the Misting. Once the Stormlight is drained away sufficiently that the Plate is an impediment to the Shardbearer rather than an advantage the shift may be decisive.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Problem with a lot of these tactics is that sure, they can win against Shardbearer, but they can pull it off maybe once in a hundred attempts, when everything goes right; or if they have advantage of prior knowledge of their opponent.

Meh. As above, the only winning play for a pewter Misting is to not get hit by a sharp edge of the Blade for a long enough period. Probably not easy, but dodging blows from a single weapon is exactly the kind of thing pewter allows even better than being filled with Stormlight does (if I remember correctly). We see quite a few people with lesser benefits than pewter grants dodging Shardblades, including Kaladin, Szeth, Dalinar, and various Fused. We're also handwaving away the quality of the Misting (Ham gets less out of pewter than Vin, who gets less out of it than Elend), but I don't know any way to account for that.

A pewterarm's best strategy is just to wait out the Shardbearer, and if they can wait long enough (which can be defined in a few different ways) then victory becomes all but guaranteed. I don't know that I would bet on the Misting, nor would I suggest that the Shardbearer doesn't have the advantage overall, but one in every hundred attempts seems way off to me given this.

Edited February 25 by Returned