Shards and Intent

[nojanath]

Something that occurs to me reading through the Wax and Wayne series and through Stormlight is a lot of the commentary on Intent. It's outright stated that most of the shard bearers are intrinsically linked and affected by the Intent of their Shard the longer they hold it, such a Ati being kind and generous and that getting warped by Ruin. However, we've also seen cognitive shadows functionally creating an Intent, such as the Pursuer. At least, it seems that the Fused 'traditions' are functionally just Intents, and it seems that the Intent there is changeable. There's also a some mention of Rayse being in conflict with his shard despite being a shard bearer for as long as Ati, along with Sazed's apparent slipping into Discord from Harmony. My curiosity at this point is if it's possible for an individual to nudge or change the Intent on the level of a shard. For example, was Odium originally Odium, or was it actually Passion before? Could Rayse's personality and use of the shard have focused the shard primarily on hatred over the millennia?  And could the change from Harmony into Discord be less about Ruin being a little stronger and more tied to how the Sazed is acting while holding these powers? I know there aren't tangible answers to this question but I just wanted to get it written down somewhere.

[alder24]

28 minutes ago, nojanath said:

It's outright stated that most of the shard bearers are intrinsically linked and affected by the Intent of their Shard the longer they hold it, such a Ati being kind and generous and that getting warped by Ruin.

That's right, holding a Shard is a contest of wills:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shards and Shard intents: Holding a Shard is a contest of willpower against the Shard that, over time, is very hard to resist.

Shards affect you over time, but your mind will not leave a permanent effect on the Shard. A holder's [Vessel's] personality, however, does get to filter the Shard's intent, so to speak. However, if that holder [Vessel] no longer held that Shard, the Shard will not continue to be filtered by that person.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

 

18 minutes ago, nojanath said:

However, we've also seen cognitive shadows functionally creating an Intent, such as the Pursuer. At least, it seems that the Fused 'traditions' are functionally just Intents, and it seems that the Intent there is changeable.

Yes, the longer a Cognitive Shadow lives, the more it becomes like a spren - focused on one thing only and overcome by their intent.

22 minutes ago, nojanath said:

My curiosity at this point is if it's possible for an individual to nudge or change the Intent on the level of a shard. For example, was Odium originally Odium, or was it actually Passion before? Could Rayse's personality and use of the shard have focused the shard primarily on hatred over the millennia?  And could the change from Harmony into Discord be less about Ruin being a little stronger and more tied to how the Sazed is acting while holding these powers? I know there aren't tangible answers to this question but I just wanted to get it written down somewhere.

Yes, it's possible. That's what Rayse was trying to do, to change Odium into Passion (it was Odium from the beginning). But Shards can change their intent because of their Vessel to a reasonable degree - you can't change the intent too far away from the original idea, this idea is still within the Shard, the intent, the name is just its interpretation.

Spoiler

yulerule

So, we have Shard names; Ruin, Preservation, Harmony, Cultivation, Honor, Ambition, Autonomy, Devotion, Dominion. Those are pretty much regular English words. And then we have Odium. That's a little more Latinate. It's not-- It doesn't fit the pattern.

Brandon Sanderson

So I don't really look as something as Latinate or Germanic, when I'm picking the names usually.

yulerule

But this one is more. Even in Devotion or Dominion, their more regular English. Why?

Brandon Sanderson

I just look for the thing that feels right. Remember, all these words are in translation. When you read the book, they were a word in the original language of the book, that then we have translated to English. And so, don't look to much about what's Greek, what's Latin, what's Germanic. I will mix those a lot. And that's just because I'm looking for the word that has right resonance in English, that I'm writing in. You might even find Latin and Greek mixes in some of my stuff. And that's not done to be like, "Oh, you should be paying [attention]." Usually, I'm just looking for a flavor.

yulerule

So it's the flavor-- Because I actually did have it - they're all translations, why not <Hatred instead of Odium?>

Brandon Sanderson

Because Odium is cooler. It just sounds cooler. There is no answer other than "I like the word better."

yulerule

Is there any connection with the thought that it's not Hatred? Because in Oathbringer, he says he's Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

He would claim that he's Passion and not Odium. But that is part of why I chose it. Hatred felt too on-the-nose, because there is quite arguably that step toward just being all Passion, and that's what he claims that he is.

yulerule

His own perception of himself, can perception, in the cosmere, can that influence?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it can influence.

yulerule

So the Shard's intent can--

Brandon Sanderson

Can be influenced by their perception and the holder's, yes.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

 

Spoiler

delvin

Is it possible that Honor's Shard is named Honor, because this is how the man who hold The Shard inerpreted it but not it's real name? In that case could The Shard change the name to something else that would better fit with personality of the new holder? As an example, could Honor become Unity if Dalinar were the holder?

Brandon Sanderson

The name Honor is bigger than Tanavast, though it's not impossible for shards to be interpreted differently by those who hold them, and perhaps other names be applied.

General Reddit 2020 (Dec. 1, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

We know Ati chose how Ruin was interpreted, in that he was a card-cackling maniac. Could someone so differently interpret a Shard as to change its name to be something different? Could someone pick up the Shard of Ruin and think I'm the Shard of Change? Or could someone pick up the Shard of Honor and think--

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitantly* Yes. To an extent. The interpretation, what you call a thing-- I think it would be arguable either way in-world, regardless of what they call themselves. There are those who would say the core intent is still there and you can't shift it that far, and others would argue you can shift it far enough to change the definition to a synonym. You see evidence of someone claiming this in the books. I'm not gonna confirm or deny for you whether that is actually a thing or not.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

I was just wondering if a Shard's intent can change over time without changing holders?

Brandon Sanderson

Without changing holders? The holder can have a slight effect on how the-- a big effect on how the intent is interpreted, but what the intent is stays the same. So it's gonna be filtered. The way it manifests can change, and you'll see that happening, but it is the same intent. When it was broken off, it took a certain thing with it.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 21, 2017)

 

Spoiler

m4ge

If a Splintered Shard is somehow reformed, is it possible to change the word that expresses its Intent?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but that's a very implausible thing depending on how... so, you're getting into some weird Cosmere stuff here. Most of the ways that these different Shards could manifest could be described differently. Odium is trying very hard to describe his Shard as something different, and there's an argument there. But it depends on if you're like actually changing it or if you just want to call it something different. You could just call Odium Hatred and it's not going to change anything, but if you wanted to change Odium to mean Passion like Odium thinks that it means, then that's more difficult.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

 

[Dofurion]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, it's possible. That's what Rayse was trying to do, to change Odium into Passion (it was Odium from the beginning). But Shards can change their intent because of their Vessel to a reasonable degree - you can't change the intent too far away from the original idea, this idea is still within the Shard, the intent, the name is just its interpretation.

I particularly think that one way to achieve this is through oaths. If a vessel swears to perform certain actions in specific situations and the Shard does not prevent him from performing the oath, it would be a very useful way to redirect the intent, and thus it would not only be a struggle of wills destined to be lost if you are unlucky.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Dofurion said:

I particularly think that one way to achieve this is through oaths. If a vessel swears to perform certain actions in specific situations and the Shard does not prevent him from performing the oath, it would be a very useful way to redirect the intent, and thus it would not only be a struggle of wills destined to be lost if you are unlucky.

I don't think it would be like that. A Vessel is incapable of swearing an oath that they can't keep due to Shardic intent or other circumstances. A Shard can be forced into a deal that they don't like and that won't change the way they look at themselves. A Vessel needs to change the way they're perceiving their Shard - that's how you change Shard's intent. Perception not oaths. Vessel's perception filters the way Shard's intent is manifested. 

The struggle of wills between Vessel and their Shard refers to something different. It's about Vessels attempting to push against Shardic intent to preserve their personality - Intent of a Shard tries to mold the mind of a Vessel and over time it will always succeed. Even in the case of Rayse, who tried so hard to change Odium into Passion, he had already lost this struggle against Intent. Ati had lost as well but he succeeded in redirecting Ruin to focus on entropy and natural decay rather than just destruction.

Spoiler

Questioner

In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves?

Brandon Sanderson

I have kind of imagined this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously Odium thinks that he's named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen all knew. Like, "I am missing this part of me, it is this." And it was less "we went around and named them" more like "this is just what it is". And various Shards are resisting that, but the others are all like "No, this is what you represent". 

Billy Todd, Moderator

Follow-up question there. Would the entity that we call Odium refer to itself as Odium when it's honest with itself?

Brandon Sanderson

Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. *laughter* There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception. 

Billy Todd, Moderator

So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Part of him does.

Billy Todd, Moderator

Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Alvaro Lopez

Why Odium is stronger and worst evil than Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

One reason is that Ruin had a person in control of it who, for many years, fought against the impulse to destroy--and in the end, channeled it toward entropy and decay, necessary elements of the universe. Odium represents something else entirely.

General Twitter 2018 (June 6, 2018)

 

[Treamayne]

On 2/9/2024 at 7:09 AM, alder24 said:

The struggle of wills between Vessel and their Shard refers to something different. It's about Vessels attempting to push against Shardic intent to preserve their personality - Intent of a Shard tries to mold the mind of a Vessel and over time it will always succeed. Even in the case of Rayse, who tried so hard to change Odium into Passion, he had already lost this struggle against Intent. Ati had lost as well but he succeeded in redirecting Ruin to focus on entropy and natural decay rather than just destruction.

I would also like to note the difference here. Like a Venn Diagram:

• Ati focused on a circle smaller than "all of Ruin" but entirely contained with the Shard's Intent and was successful
• Rayse focused on a circle, arguably larger (or merely overlapping) than "all-of-Odium" and tried to shift either the power or others' perception of the power. He failed. 

I think that is the key take-away. A vessel can narrow focus and be successful, but the only way to widen focus and change the base (that we know of so far) is to hold multiple shards. Even then, Harmony is failiing miserably, likely because the vessel's intent is "I am holding two shards" rather than "I am holding one combined shard of the merged intent <x>." Foreshadowed right there in HoA CH 82:

Spoiler

We never understood. He wouldn’t simply bear the power of Preservation. He needed the power of Ruin as well.

The powers were opposites. As he drew them in, they threatened to annihilate each other. And yet, because he was of one mind on how to use them, he could keep them separate. They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it. For these two powers had been used to create all things. If they fought, they destroyed. If they were used together, they created.

He keeps themseparate, but working together in "Harmony" (tryign to balance three Intents; Ruin, Preservation and the Vessel's Harmony Intent) instead of having claiming the shard with the Intent of merging them into a single power with a single Intent.

Edited February 11 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

32 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I would also like to note the difference here. Like a Venn Diagram:

• Ati focused on a circle smaller than "all of Ruin" but entirely contained with the Shard's Intent and was successful
• Rayse focused on a circle, arguably larger (or meerely overlapping) than "all-of-Odium" and tried to shift withe r the power or others' perception of the power. He failed. 

I think that is the key take-away. A vessel can narrow focus and be successful, but the only way to widen focus and change the base (that we know of so far) is to hold multiple shards. Even then, Harmony is failiing miserably, likely because the vessel's intent is "I am holding two shards" rather than "I am holding one combined shard of the merged intent <x>." Foreshadowed right there in HoA CH 82:

True, but only partially. Both examples are still possible, a Shard can change its name entirely as long as it remains within the borders of its core intent - which stays deep inside the Shard. The word is just a focus of the whole intent, the intent of a Shard is much broader than the word. 

Spoiler

Questioner

I was just wondering if a Shard's intent can change over time without changing holders?

Brandon Sanderson

Without changing holders? The holder can have a slight effect on how the-- a big effect on how the intent is interpreted, but what the intent is stays the same. So it's gonna be filtered. The way it manifests can change, and you'll see that happening, but it is the same intent. When it was broken off, it took a certain thing with it.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 21, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Chaos

In Dawnshard we learned that Intent and Command are two different things, whereas in Warbreaker Vasher is clearly conflating these two into just saying it's the Command. What's the difference between Intent and Command?

Brandon Sanderson

Intent encompasses more understanding. Command is specifically narrow. A lot of times, these things are gonna be conflated, because they basically can be. Like, if Vasher creates an awakened thing and says "go get me those keys." The Intent is: "I need the keys to get outta here. I want to be free." The Command is: "Go fetch keys." Those are two different things, but they are working toward the same goal. It is important in cosmere terms that the Intent is understood, even if sometimes the words that can speak 'em are clunky and smaller in scale by nature than the Intent.

Let's say the Intent of a Shard encompasses more than the word that the Shard is described by. It's a similar thing that the Intent of a Command is often vaster than the actual words spoken. And the magic can grasp the Intent, not just the Command, depending on the magic system and how good you are at it, and things like that. The words are there to focus Intent. How about that?

Chaos

Bringing the old word "focus" back into it. Let's talk about body focuses; what's going on there? (That's a joke.)

Brandon Sanderson

I'll throw you a kernel on that one in the fifth book if you watch for it. That old Rosharan philosophy will actually be relevant for a small thing happening in the fifth book.

Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021)

 

In the case of Ati, back then there would be no difference in calling the Shard Ruin or Entropy - per WoB:

Quote

You could just call Odium Hatred and it's not going to change anything, but if you wanted to change Odium to mean Passion like Odium thinks that it means, then that's more difficult.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

That's because Ati successfully provided this interpretation for his Shard. The problem with Rayse could have been that only "part of him" believed that he was Passion, not all of him (WoB in my previous post). But as you pointed out Passion is a far greater concept than just Odium, it encompasses all emotions and yet some emotions like love are absent from this Shard. However, Taravangian Ascended while feeling all emotions and the Shard loved it - Rayse made a significant difference in how the Shard is expressed, it wants more emotions, it is more than just hatred, but the conversion isn't complete yet. It's certainly possible given what the power "thinks" now. RoW ch 113&114:

Quote

Passion. Hatred. Today, Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery. The power loved these things, and it surged around him, enveloping him.

[...]

In his specific case, the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound.

[Argenti he/him]

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Even then, Harmony is failiing miserably, likely because the vessel's intent is "I am holding two shards" rather than "I am holding one combined shard of the merged intent

I'm happy more of the shard has gotten onto the "Sazed is awful at his job" bandwagon. 

[Treamayne]

12 minutes ago, Argenti said:

I'm happy more of the shard has gotten onto the "Sazed is awful at his job" bandwagon. 

Or, at least, he created his own problems (unintentionally, maybe subconsciously, I think he still is the cause of his own issues)

[Returned]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Or, at least, he created his own problems (unintentionally, maybe subconsciously, I think he still is the cause of his own issues)

I think that Sazed's knowledge upon ascending was inadequate for what he actually wanted to accomplish and so he missed his window to make it happen in anything like an easy, smooth way. Now he's bound by a variety of things, including Preservation's undiluted influence against things changing (especially itself) and Ruin damaging his own plans and hopes.

His personal issues are probably also a factor but I hadn't thought about them so much. Have you elaborated on this elsewhere on the forum, or would you be willing to?

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Returned said:

His personal issues are probably also a factor but I hadn't thought about them so much. Have you elaborated on this elsewhere on the forum, or would you be willing to?

Yes, I discussed parts of this "theory" here (Rhythm of Harmony) and  here (Harmony and Lights)

And I am willing to continue discussion in a new thread or one of the established threads.

Edited February 10 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Dofurion]

On 2/9/2024 at 8:09 AM, alder24 said:

I don't think it would be like that. A Vessel is incapable of swearing an oath that they can't keep due to Shardic intent or other circumstances. A Shard can be forced into a deal that they don't like and that won't change the way they look at themselves. A Vessel needs to change the way they're perceiving their Shard - that's how you change Shard's intent. Perception not oaths. Vessel's perception filters the way Shard's intent is manifested. 

I think I didn't understand myself correctly when I wrote the first time. I didn't mean that with oaths, you can alter the intent of the Shard; I wanted to say that it would serve to help in the fight against it. As @Treamayne says in the comment next, if what you are looking for is a specific framework of actions that you know the Shard wants to do and that doesn't seem bad to you, with oaths you can direct it there and avoid the aspects of the intention that you don't want to follow. I wouldn't be surprised if we're later told that the reason Ati and Leras decided to create Scadrial in the first place was to keep Ruin's intent at bay with an oath that "as long as I am allowed to cyclically destroy this planet, I will not destroy others" or something like that.
In any case, the intention of a Shard according to which point of view can be considered a command:

Quote

ArsenoPyrite

Is the act of taking up a shard parallel to the act of Awakening? In broad strokes awakening gives a piece of a soul for power along with a purpose or compulsion. So, say, when someone takes up Ruin, are they operating on the same principle, taking a fragment of Adolnasium's 'soul' along with the command "ruin things"?

Brandon Sanderson

You could make this parallel, and argue it to many of the cosmere-aware scholars in the books, and they'd find themselves nodding.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 13, 2015)

I bring this WoB up because if you ask me to change Odium to Passion, I think that in addition to the vessel being appropriate and the power wanting it, something else is needed, such as a Dawnshard (specifically, it should be the Rysn).

 

Edited February 11 by Dofurion