Harmony and Lights

[Kfish]

So we know now with Lights that they need to have their rhythm or wavelength altered so that they "snap" together and combine rather than just circle each other - never touching. 

 

Harmony is supposed to be a harmonic fusion of the two but Sazed very much talks about the powers as if they are separate and not a single harmonious force. Does anyone else get the impression that Harmony is still holding two separate powers and has not learned/found out what to use as an Emulsifier to truly combine the investiture of Ruin and Preservation together?

[Argenti]

Just now, Kfish said:

So we know now with Lights that they need to have their rhythm or wavelength altered so that they "snap" together and combine rather than just circle each other - never touching. 

 

Harmony is supposed to be a harmonic fusion of the two but Sazed very much talks about the powers as if they are separate and not a single harmonious force. Does anyone else get the impression that Harmony is still holding two separate powers and has not learned/found out what to use as an Emulsifier to truly combine the investiture of Ruin and Preservation together?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the reason Sazed is struggling so much is because of how he treats his power; he's suppressing ruin by doing nothing, which is actually favoring preservation, which polarizes the power more and more. Sazed is his own worst enemy. 

[Aredor]

10 minutes ago, Kfish said:

So we know now with Lights that they need to have their rhythm or wavelength altered so that they "snap" together and combine rather than just circle each other - never touching. 

 

Harmony is supposed to be a harmonic fusion of the two but Sazed very much talks about the powers as if they are separate and not a single harmonious force. Does anyone else get the impression that Harmony is still holding two separate powers and has not learned/found out what to use as an Emulsifier to truly combine the investiture of Ruin and Preservation together?

As well as the fact that Ruin's power is stronger than Preservation's because Preservation gave up some of his power to trap Ruin in the Well. When Sazed became Harmony, that power imbalance still remained. 

[Kfish]

21 minutes ago, Ookla the Vacant said:

As well as the fact that Ruin's power is stronger than Preservation's because Preservation gave up some of his power to trap Ruin in the Well. When Sazed became Harmony, that power imbalance still remained. 

Do we know if the ratio of investiture matters when creating the combination? So, would it be like this?:

3XVoidLight + XStormlight = XWarLight + 2XVoidLight

 

If so, then maybe that would be how it works but I still am not sure Harmony actually has merged them at all. If he had, I think that the Kandra would have been right and Wax would have been unable to split Harmonium/Ettmetal. The only problem I am running into with this theory on Harmony's state is that Ettmetal doesn't appear to be two metals and I would think if Harmony wasn't merged then the metal wouldn't be merged together like that.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Kfish said:

Harmony is supposed to be a harmonic fusion of the two

I'm not sure that is true (discussed here and here). Harmony holds two shards - but only outside observers sometimes consider Harmony to be a single Shard (WoB below), and we don't know if Harmony was a name Sazed gave to himself, or if the survivors of the Catacendre just started calling him that and he accepted the name:

Spoiler

Mason Wheeler (paraphrased)

And Shardholders [Vessels] tend to take the name of the Shard they hold. So you've got Sazed, who goes by "Harmony" now, after taking up Ruin and Preservation. That makes me wonder, does he hold two Shards... or one?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You could really answer that either way. The distinction is a really subjective one, and you could say that he's holding both Shards, or that he holds one single Harmony.

Sazed himself does continue to refer to them as separate. More importantly, he explicitly used the Intent when taking them up that they should be two separate powers, working together (HoA Ch 82):

Spoiler

The powers were opposites. As he drew them in, they threatened to annihilate each other. And yet, because he was of one mind on how to use them, he could keep them separate. They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it. For these two powers had been used to create all things. If they fought, they destroyed. If they were used together, they created.

Understanding swelled within him.

 

[alder24]

26 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

we don't know if Harmony was a name Sazed gave to himself

He named himself:

Spoiler

Argent

When Sazed picked up the Shards of Preservation and Ruin, did he actively choose to be known as Harmony (instead of, for example, Balance, or Equilibrium, or Stability), or is there some Cosmeric law that says Preservation + Ruin = Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

He chose the name, but in part because it FELT right to him.

Argent

Is this similar to how a Shard's "personality" overwrites the Shardholder's over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Similar, yes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 17, 2015)

 

28 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Harmony holds two shards - but only outside observers sometimes consider Harmony to be a single Shard (WoB below)

I would say that Harmony is a Shard made out of two Shards. Harmony is a Shard now for sure, but Ruin and Preservation are still separate within him.

Spoiler

Thanatos17901

If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the Shard Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 23, 2013)

 

2 hours ago, Kfish said:

So we know now with Lights that they need to have their rhythm or wavelength altered so that they "snap" together and combine rather than just circle each other - never touching. 

 

Harmony is supposed to be a harmonic fusion of the two but Sazed very much talks about the powers as if they are separate and not a single harmonious force. Does anyone else get the impression that Harmony is still holding two separate powers and has not learned/found out what to use as an Emulsifier to truly combine the investiture of Ruin and Preservation together?

The chapter's name, where Navani and Raboniel created Warlight, is named "Harmony". I think Sazed is the Emulsifier for Ruin and Preservation's investiture (Harmonium is the proof of it). However because Sazed views himself as Harmony, as two separate powers working together in Harmony, this forces them not to fully combine into one power. Sazed still mixes them together like lights can be mixed, but his essence, the intent of his being, isn't one and unified as deeply as he should be. Considering himself to be Harmony or Discord won't do that, something like Creation for example might. At least that's my opinion.

Spoiler

Questioner

Is there a significance between Harmony and Discord being musical terms? And would they be considered different Investiture tones? 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes and no. So what's going on here is that... it is significant, I chose those two terms very specifically. Not gonna tell you a lot about Discord or things like that, but the idea is that idea of Harmony is in... the sounds are in harmony, they are working together. In Discord they are not. I wouldn't call them Investiture tones, more the way the two tones are responding to each other.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

[Kfish]

On 12/8/2023 at 1:08 PM, alder24 said:

He named himself:

  Reveal hidden contents

Argent

When Sazed picked up the Shards of Preservation and Ruin, did he actively choose to be known as Harmony (instead of, for example, Balance, or Equilibrium, or Stability), or is there some Cosmeric law that says Preservation + Ruin = Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

He chose the name, but in part because it FELT right to him.

Argent

Is this similar to how a Shard's "personality" overwrites the Shardholder's over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Similar, yes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 17, 2015)

 

I would say that Harmony is a Shard made out of two Shards. Harmony is a Shard now for sure, but Ruin and Preservation are still separate within him.

  Reveal hidden contents

Thanatos17901

If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the Shard Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 23, 2013)

 

The chapter's name, where Navani and Raboniel created Warlight, is named "Harmony". I think Sazed is the Emulsifier for Ruin and Preservation's investiture (Harmonium is the proof of it). However because Sazed views himself as Harmony, as two separate powers working together in Harmony, this forces them not to fully combine into one power. Sazed still mixes them together like lights can be mixed, but his essence, the intent of his being, isn't one and unified as deeply as he should be. Considering himself to be Harmony or Discord won't do that, something like Creation for example might. At least that's my opinion.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Is there a significance between Harmony and Discord being musical terms? And would they be considered different Investiture tones? 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes and no. So what's going on here is that... it is significant, I chose those two terms very specifically. Not gonna tell you a lot about Discord or things like that, but the idea is that idea of Harmony is in... the sounds are in harmony, they are working together. In Discord they are not. I wouldn't call them Investiture tones, more the way the two tones are responding to each other.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

On 12/8/2023 at 12:17 PM, Treamayne said:

I'm not sure that is true (discussed here and here). Harmony holds two shards - but only outside observers sometimes consider Harmony to be a single Shard (WoB below), and we don't know if Harmony was a name Sazed gave to himself, or if the survivors of the Catacendre just started calling him that and he accepted the name:

  Hide contents

Mason Wheeler (paraphrased)

And Shardholders [Vessels] tend to take the name of the Shard they hold. So you've got Sazed, who goes by "Harmony" now, after taking up Ruin and Preservation. That makes me wonder, does he hold two Shards... or one?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You could really answer that either way. The distinction is a really subjective one, and you could say that he's holding both Shards, or that he holds one single Harmony.

Sazed himself does continue to refer to them as separate. More importantly, he explicitly used the Intent when taking them up that they should be two separate powers, working together (HoA Ch 82):

  Hide contents

The powers were opposites. As he drew them in, they threatened to annihilate each other. And yet, because he was of one mind on how to use them, he could keep them separate. They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it. For these two powers had been used to create all things. If they fought, they destroyed. If they were used together, they created.

Understanding swelled within him.

 

I like the thoughts you both have on this. You're right in that Sazed is intent on keeping them in balance but separate which I think is the problem that we are seeing. He is capable of holding both but either doesn't know how to do what Navani/Raboniel did on a large scale or is incapable of doing this. I wonder if a Singer were to find their song if Sazed could hum it to help push the powers together into one?  Sazed may have been the Hero of Ages but I'm not convinced he's finished with melding the powers or that he will be the one to hold them in the end. We talk about Harmonium being proof that they're melded and I see that - even mentioned it myself above - but with it being as combustive as it is I wonder if maybe it's an incomplete fusion of the two. The two forces inside aren't merging but trying to push apart and need just a nudge to do so.

[MerlinArcane]

I don’t think sazed is necessarily done with being HoA. He’s still got that discord stuff 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

On 12/8/2023 at 9:50 AM, Ookla the Silver said:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the reason Sazed is struggling so much is because of how he treats his power; he's suppressing ruin by doing nothing, which is actually favoring preservation, which polarizes the power more and more. Sazed is his own worst enemy. 

Perhaps choosing and aiding his sword was in part a step towards unleashing a bit of ruin?  Or does he have to directly use investiture from Ruin to create any balance? 

[Argenti]

54 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Perhaps choosing and aiding his sword was in part a step towards unleashing a bit of ruin?  Or does he have to directly use investiture from Ruin to create any balance? 

I think it needs both, Intent and a release valve.