heliovox Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 Hi, sorry if this has already been discussed elsewhere, but 'quick' searching didn't find a concerted discussion of it. I was wondering if people have discussed the possible *widespread* presence of relativistic effects on the current (~Rhythm of War) cosmere? Brandon seems to be hinting that there are a bunch of possible relativistic things in the future, but I can't think of a reason that some of these things might be happening (shard assisted) *now*. Specifically, I think there is a pretty good chance that several very large and weird effects on a cosmere scale level could be explained by relativity. One of these, we have basically already been straight up told: Sel is experiencing relativistic effects *because* the presence of the Dor in the cognitive realm is... effectively increasing local mass (there are some other weird things that may result from this, but I don't want to get too side tracked). Buuuuut, this got me thinking about other places that might have some similar effects, specifically: *Taldain* We are also told that Taldain was hard to get to, in sort of the same breath as Sel. I think this could be for a similar reason. The alignment of stars and the solar system in taldain is something Bavadin did on purpose. I don't think it is impossible, or really, unlikely, that the reason Bavadin is invested in AisDa is because it makes it really easy to mess with AisDa's mass by dumping excess investiture into the sun. The important part of this is that it would distort *time*. This could make the reason that travelling to Sel and travelling to Taldain are dangerous actually sorta the same. It is necessarily that it is *physically* dangerous, but, just like Miller's planet in interstellar, it is possible that if you approach either of these systems wrong, you could be caught in the relativistic effects and lose a lot of time. This would matter less for shards because time and space don't really exist in the spiritual realm. I actually think this might explain the scar as well. One of the things that can make things in space look red is if they are moving away from you really fast. What if the reason the scar is red is because it is moving away from the rest of the cosmere? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 (edited) 2 hours ago, heliovox said: I was wondering if people have discussed the possible *widespread* presence of relativistic effects on the current (~Rhythm of War) cosmere? Brandon seems to be hinting that there are a bunch of possible relativistic things in the future, but I can't think of a reason that some of these things might be happening (shard assisted) *now*. We saw Shard induced time dilation in RoW, during Kaladin's fall. Spoiler Questioner At the end of Rhythm of War, we see Shard-induced time dilation; you bring a lot of Investiture into a place, and it slows down time. Brandon Sanderson It can also speed it up. Questioner How much Investiture would it take to dilate an area so that one area moves forward about fifteen years into the future while everything else remains? Like, they have ten minutes, everyone else goes fifteen years? Brandon Sanderson There’s a couple variables here. Number one is the length of the area, and how fast that fifteen years passes. If we want us to jump forward fifteen years, in how much time? Fifteen years compared to one year? Fifteen years compared to one minute? Fifteen years compared to one second? These are all different things. And, of course, the more you’re compressing and the larger the area, the more Investiture you’re requiring. Questioner Could two unchained Bondsmiths in the course of a duel do it? Brandon Sanderson Fifteen years? Fifteen years is gonna be a stretch for what they can get a hold of, but it depends. Unchained Bondsmith, unchained to (for instance) a deity that there is no longer a Vessel controlling that power in the way that it needs to have the limits on it is going to be able to access more than one where there was some Vessel there saying “no.” So there’s one factor in it. A Bondsmith can access a lot of power, as evidenced by the migration. The migration from Ashyn to Roshar happened with a Bondsmith powering some Elsecalling. And that allowed for some pretty crazy things. Getting an entire population moved through a portal across that much space is a lot of work and a lot of energy. So what you’re asking, I think that’s stretching. Depends, again, on how long. Fifteen to one, not so hard. Fifteen years in a second is really hard and probably beyond what they have capacity to do. I see what you’re doing there. You saw me talk around it. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) 2 hours ago, heliovox said: One of these, we have basically already been straight up told: Sel is experiencing relativistic effects *because* the presence of the Dor in the cognitive realm is... effectively increasing local mass (there are some other weird things that may result from this, but I don't want to get too side tracked). Yes, something is happening on Sel because of the Dor: Spoiler Jeremy If vast amounts of Investiture can distort time in a similar manner as a black hole, [...] does that include Shards? Would time dilation be greater on Roshar than on Nalthis? Brandon Sanderson No, because the Shard is contained almost entirely in the Spiritual Realm. In the Spiritual Realm, time and distance have no meaning. So, what this means is: Large piles of Investiture that somehow make it into the Cognitive Realm or the Physical Realm are going to cause time dilation, but the Spiritual Realm—where it belongs—it's not going to do that. That's gonna make some exclamation points raise above the heads of some people. The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021) 2 hours ago, heliovox said: Buuuuut, this got me thinking about other places that might have some similar effects, specifically: *Taldain* We are also told that Taldain was hard to get to, in sort of the same breath as Sel. Taldain is hard to get to because Autonomy actively sealed the planet off from the rest of Cosmere, preventing Worldhopping in and out of Taldain. I think this has to do more to do with her Perpendicularity because it is widely known that she possesses control over her perpendicularities far greater than any other Shard - one example of this was seen in TLM. But it wasn't like that in the past. Time dilation isn't a good way to stop all travel out of the system, it seems Taldain lost its ability to access CR entirely. Arcanum Unbounded: Quote Autonomy’s policy of isolationism in recent times (in direct contrast to her interference with other planets, I might add) has prevented travel to and from Taldain for many, many years. Spoiler yafeshan I am space nerd with a love of fantasy, so; Why is Scadrial prime example planet to invent space travel. Is its allomancy/ferruchemy/hemalurgy combination more suitable for that kind of technology or do they have other incentives to invent space travel other than regular technology development? Is it related to the intervention of unknown metal/shard/beings we saw? Brandon Sanderson There are a bunch of reasons. The most technologically advanced of the planets (Taldain) is extremely isolationist because of its Shard, while Harmony is very interested in the progress of his people. [...] Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 8, 2017) 2 hours ago, heliovox said: This could make the reason that travelling to Sel and travelling to Taldain are dangerous actually sorta the same. Traveling to Sel isn't dangerous because of time dilation, but because there is a whole bunch of plasma-like investiture in CR that will simply kill you. Taldain has no investiture in CR like that. Spoiler Questioner Can you describe what Shadesmar looks like on either Nalthis or Sel. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. On Sel? Looks like a big old storm that will destroy you. More than a storm, it's like a big pressurized-- it's like plasma, almost. It is really dangerous. Really dangerous. That 'cause the Dor is hanging out there. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) 2 hours ago, heliovox said: I actually think this might explain the scar as well. One of the things that can make things in space look red is if they are moving away from you really fast. What if the reason the scar is red is because it is moving away from the rest of the cosmere? That's interesting, but I doubt it. The Cosmere is a relatively small star cluster of around 100 stars. For objects that close to be redshifted into red they would have to travel very, very fast - probably close to the speed of light - against the gravitational force binding the star cluster together. I found this unlikely. By the time of RoW those stars would no longer be part of the star cluster and they could be already out of the galaxy. Spoiler Questioner Is there a center to the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson There isn't a center in the cosmere... I keep calling it a dwarf galaxy but I think they decided it's a cluster, instead of a dwarf galaxy. Overlord Jebus Even a dwarf galaxy is still really big. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, still too big. So we had to call it a cluster. Because we only wanted like what, we came up with 50 or 100 stars? So it's a cluster. Or a really dwarf galaxy. Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018) Edited February 8 by alder24 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heliovox Posted February 8 Author Report Share Posted February 8 (edited) 34 minutes ago, alder24 said: Traveling to Sel isn't dangerous because of time dilation, but because there is a whole bunch of plasma-like investiture in CR that will simply kill you. Taldain has no investiture in CR like that. Hide contents Questioner Can you describe what Shadesmar looks like on either Nalthis or Sel. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. On Sel? Looks like a big old storm that will destroy you. More than a storm, it's like a big pressurized-- it's like plasma, almost. It is really dangerous. Really dangerous. That 'cause the Dor is hanging out there. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) Sorry, I don't know how to do the weird dropdown thing, I'll figure it out, but I'm buzzing. (sorta figured it out, but if I don't eat lunch now, I'll be hungry) I doesn't have to be dangerous for just one reason though. The reason that the Cognitive of Sel is called the expanse of densities is because of the Dor: Spoiler Jeremy If vast amounts of Investiture can distort time in a similar manner as a black hole, [...] does that include Shards? Would time dilation be greater on Roshar than on Nalthis? Brandon Sanderson No, because the Shard is contained almost entirely in the Spiritual Realm. In the Spiritual Realm, time and distance have no meaning. So, what this means is: Large piles of Investiture that somehow make it into the Cognitive Realm or the Physical Realm are going to cause time dilation, but the Spiritual Realm—where it belongs—it's not going to do that. That's gonna make some exclamation points raise above the heads of some people. The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021) And Brandon has told us that might cause time dialation. I think the same could still kinda be true for taldain as well, certainly closing a perpendicularity locks stuff off, but there seem to be some ways around that, and it might actually be easier to just make it so that the rules of the place are really hostile to non shards. There just aren't that many reasons to want to invest a huge star. On the scar: The shift from blue to red isn't actually that hard, and space is *really* big. In order to go from blue (~400 nm) to red (~670) only requires a speed of .67c. You don't even really end up with huge time dialation problems at that speed. It certainly would take a lot of energy, but I don't think it is wildly beyond what a shard could do if they thought they had a reason to get out of dodge and take their favorite stars with them. It just seems to me like Brandon likes this stuff too much to not be using it a lot. Edited February 8 by heliovox 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 4 minutes ago, heliovox said: Sorry, I don't know how to do the weird dropdown thing, I'll figure it out, but I'm buzzing. Just highlight a section of a post and an option to "quote selection" will appear, click it and it will paste that section as a quote. 7 minutes ago, heliovox said: I think the same could still kinda be true for taldain as well, certainly closing a perpendicularity locks stuff off, but there seem to be some ways around that, and it might actually be easier to just make it so that the rules of the place are really hostile to non shards. There just aren't that many reasons to want to invest a huge star. Time dilation would not prevent any travel in and out of the planet and we see this on Sel, where despite time dilation affecting the world there there is still a lot of trade happening in and out of the system. We see pure Dor appearing on Scadrial, characters from Sel leaving the planet, Aonic devices present in Rosharan subastral etc. The star isn't just invested, it seems to be an Avatar of Autonomy - she has a thing for creating Avatars all around Cosmere. Another reason to invest into a star is to make life on Taldain's day side possible - the investiture feeds microorganisms responsible for making the sand white and also provide fuel for Sand Mastery. Just like on Roshar there is a giant, deadly storm that rejuvenates the land and provides needed Stormlight for every organism, Taldain's sun does the same for the desert life. 15 minutes ago, heliovox said: In order to go from blue (~400 nm) to red (~670) only requires a speed of .67c. That's very fast. That's 628 times the escape velocity from the Milky Way. Those stars would be far, far, far away, out of the galaxy by now, no longer visible as a compact, unusually bright constellation. The Scar is bright enough to faintly illuminate the night on Threnody, is seen on Roshar before the sun set and also illuminates the night enough to walk in its light and is sometimes seen through the Mists on Scadrial. If those stars were moving that fast they wouldn't be the brightest stars in the night sky on all those planets, they would be too far away. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heliovox Posted February 8 Author Report Share Posted February 8 I don't think it is fast *enough* for the effect you are describing though. It is definitely fast enough that those stars would *be* escaping, but they wouldn't have escaped yet. The whole passage of time from the shattering has only been ~10,500 years (6,000 between the shattering and the breaking of the oathpact +4,500 to the true desolation). The Milky way is 100,000 light years across. That means something travelling *at* lightspeed would take 100,000 years to cross it. The scar would take more than that (~167,000 years). There are plenty of stars we can see across the milky way, and space in the cosmere would be pretty dark. There just hasn't been time for them to get away yet. If my theory is correct, those stars are likely to start... coming back. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 5 minutes ago, heliovox said: I don't think it is fast *enough* for the effect you are describing though. It is definitely fast enough that those stars would *be* escaping, but they wouldn't have escaped yet. Per your calculation it's 0.67c, that's 0.67 light years per year - since the Shattering 11000 years has passed, so that would mean by the time of RoW they are 7370 light years away (if we assume they started moving at those speeds when the Shattering happened). That's far too far for them to be that bright and able to form a constellation like that from different planets in Cosmere. They would be out of Cosmere during a single lifetime and some would be out of the galaxy (Milky Way is around 1000 ly high) really fast. Moreover the Scar constellation looks different from different planets. This means they have to be close, because stars 7370 ly away would look more or less the same on every planet in Cosmere. Yet from one planet they look as a straight line, on other it curves - it changes shape, it has to be close. Lastly, the Scar stars are considered to be inside Cosmere for quite some time - if those stars were moving that fast they would have left Cosmere long ago. How long? It's a star cluster of around 100 stars. That means that Cosmere is an open cluster (it's far too small to be a globular cluster) and those are around 30 ly in diameter, containing a few hundred stars. Only 30 light years across - that means those stars would need around 44 years to leave Cosmere. Just 44 years. Spoiler TalenelFPV I'm getting "Taln's scar" tattooed on my right shin to cover a scar. Any input on the size/shape of the galaxy? (more than just the star map in the front of arcanum) Isaac Stewart That's pretty cool! Well, Taln's scar is going to look different from different vantage points in the Cosmere. From the vantage point used on the Arcanum star map, it looks like a curved string of red stars. Elsewhere it's straighter. From some vantages, it will be horizontal, and others it will be vertical. There will be the sides of some planets that won't see it at all, kind of like how the North star isn't visible from the southern hemisphere of earth. TalenelFPV Are just the stars red? Is there cosmic space dust around them that's also red? Like a Nebula, but also red? Isaac Stewart I honestly don't know if the stars are red or if there is space dust around them making them appear to be red. This is a question better asked of Brandon. However, I don't think you can go wrong making the stars red themselves as they appear on the chart, especially since most of the Cosmere views them as red, too. Isaac Stewart r/Stormlight_Archive AMA (Oct. 1, 2019) It's far more likely that the Scar is red because that's where the Ambition was splintered and it indicates corrupted investiture - only red stars on the star chart are in the Dragon constellation and the Threnody star - and we know what happened in Threnody. Speeds you proposing are too ridiculously fast to make it work in any way. 32 minutes ago, heliovox said: The whole passage of time from the shattering has only been ~10,500 years (6,000 between the shattering and the breaking of the oathpact +4,500 to the true desolation). Rosharan year is longer, it's 1.1 times Earth/Scadrian year, but yes, it has been around 11000 years since the Shattering: Spoiler Questioner Are all the planets on the same timeline? Is the time the same on all of them? Like a thousand years on Roshar is a thousand years on Scadrial? Brandon Sanderson They aren't. The years on Roshar are longer. They're different. So the way they count them is different. Basically, if you took a clock that was set, the time would pass at the same speed on most of them, but the time that it is a year on different ones are different. Questioner I was just curious if like Anno Domini was the same for all of them like year 1 is year 1 on... Brandon Sanderson Nope. They are not. The calendars are all different. And Roshar for instance, if I say someone is 20 in the Stormlight books, they'd be 22 in Earth years and Scadrial uses a very-close-to-Earth year so they'd be 22 in Scadrian years. I keep them mostly very similar just for the reasons of trying not to be super confusing. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) 35 minutes ago, heliovox said: The Milky way is 100,000 light years across. That means something travelling *at* lightspeed would take 100,000 years to cross it. The Milky Way isn't a sphere. It's a disk. And it depends in which direction they travel. The Sun is around 28 000 light years from the Galactic Center. And the Milky Way is only around 1000 ly in height. It would take around 700 years to leave in that direction with 0.67c, if Cosmere is in the middle of the galactic height. Orbits of stars around the galactic center aren't contained in a plane, like planet orbits are. They oscillate up and down relative to the galactic plane. 37 minutes ago, heliovox said: The scar would take more than that (~167,000 years). There are plenty of stars we can see across the milky way, and space in the cosmere would be pretty dark. Most stars we see in the night sky are in our galactic neighborhood, around 1000 ly away. They are very close. If stars were moving at 0.67c they would noticeably change their position over years, breaking the shape of their constellation. Cosmere is a star cluster, stars are more densely packed compared to the Sun's surrounding and Cosmere would be brighter. 1 hour ago, heliovox said: If my theory is correct, those stars are likely to start... coming back. From where? How? With 628 times the escape velocity of the galaxy they are never coming back. They aren't in orbit anymore. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heliovox Posted February 8 Author Report Share Posted February 8 I mean.... sure, the galaxy is a disk, but star clusters aren't. I wasn't making an argument about whether they were still 'in' the open cluster, I was making an argument about whether they would be too dim to see. The furthest star in ursa major is 5930 ly away, and is still plenty bright. The redshift would arguably be dimming them, but it wouldn't be dimming them that much, because that isn't how redshift works unless it is *much* more intense than this. Even with the 11,000 years, this speed would only have caused these stars to move 7,370 light years further away, and they may not have been travelling since immediately after the shattering. Even with an open cluster, if there was nothing else nearby, this would still be plenty bright. The 'Them looking different' problem is a little harder for me to deal with. Parallax from earth works out to a distance of ~100 parsec (326 ly), buuuuuut, that is based on the earth moving 2 AU, these other stars should be *much* further apart than that. Even if the open cluster is only 25 ly across, that should still give them parallax out to 1.89 x 10^6 light years, which would be more than enough. I actually think this is evidence in favor of my position. As for 'where' they would be coming back from... we have plenty of time scale until space age, and that is when this would probably matter. The threnody star is not in the scar, which I know isn't what you are saying, but it could easily have a different reason for being red. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 9 Report Share Posted February 9 16 hours ago, heliovox said: I mean.... sure, the galaxy is a disk, but star clusters aren't. And they are vastly smaller than a galaxy. 16 hours ago, heliovox said: I wasn't making an argument about whether they were still 'in' the open cluster, I was making an argument about whether they would be too dim to see. The furthest star in ursa major is 5930 ly away, and is still plenty bright. The redshift would arguably be dimming them, but it wouldn't be dimming them that much, because that isn't how redshift works unless it is *much* more intense than this. We don't know how luminous they are. The point is they would be getting significantly dimmer as they would travel further away from Cosmere. And because of the speed involved here, this difference would be huge and noticeable for anyone within their lifespan. And yet the entire constellation is still one of the brightest on the night sky on multiple planets at multiple different times. Nobody has ever noticed that this constellation is getting dimmer. 17 hours ago, heliovox said: The 'Them looking different' problem is a little harder for me to deal with. Parallax from earth works out to a distance of ~100 parsec (326 ly), buuuuuut, that is based on the earth moving 2 AU, these other stars should be *much* further apart than that. Even if the open cluster is only 25 ly across, that should still give them parallax out to 1.89 x 10^6 light years, which would be more than enough. I actually think this is evidence in favor of my position. I don't think parallax matters here that much, it's measured against a background of distant stars. The Parallax you measure from Earth is really small and almost unnoticeable with the naked eye. It would explain the change of position relative to the background, not the change of shape of the Scar, because the shape would look the same for all planets within Cosmere if the Scar was really far away. The only way for Scar's shape to change is for those stars to be very close - then they can't look as a straight line from one point or curved from the another. This doesn't really matter. We know that the Scar is in Cosmere, because it's included in the star chart, so it can't be far away. It is close. It can't be close and within Cosmere if it travels with 0.67c. 17 hours ago, heliovox said: As for 'where' they would be coming back from... we have plenty of time scale until space age, and that is when this would probably matter. They ain't coming back with that speed. TSM spoilers: Spoiler Taln's Scar is still visible in the far future of Cosmere (chronologically near the end of Cosmere story) and it's still red - not blue as they would be if they were coming back. This means they aren't moving closer. TSM ch 28: Quote He turned toward the stars again. They’d always seemed so friendly to him. So full of stories. How many of those stars had he visited now? Just a fraction of them, and yet the cosmere had begun to feel like a small place. Instinctively he tried to find Taln’s Scar, but the patch of red wasn’t visible from this angle. 17 hours ago, heliovox said: The threnody star is not in the scar, which I know isn't what you are saying, but it could easily have a different reason for being red. It's not. I was simply pointing out that it's the only reddish star outside of stars in the Scar on the star chart, which is very weird if you ask me. All the other stars are either white or yellow. Even more, not every star in the Scar constellation is even red - there are multiple yellow ones, most notably the one forming the horn of the dragon. That's another argument why the Scar can't move away, because not every star is red and if only some would move away then the constellation would just fall apart and scatter. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heliovox Posted February 9 Author Report Share Posted February 9 (edited) Bah, I hadn't gotten that far in TSM yet. Well, that does dash that part of the theory, but I still think I can defend the rest of it, because I think you are still underestimating just how staggeringly *big* space is. Stars don't disappear because they have moved out of the cluster they were originally in, they disappear because they are too dim to be seen, and neither the distance here nor the redshift here would be enough to do that. When I originally specified the .67c number, I calculated that based off of a shift from 'blue' light (400nm) to 'red' light (670 nm). This sort of shift doesn't start actually making stars 'dimmer' until that light starts shifting into the infrared, at which point it becomes dimmer because the light is fading out of the range at which we can *see*. (Thinking about this, I actually wonder if the threnodites don't see the scar as red because of the 'what is blue' problem, their eyes just see red as the default color, so everything is variations off of that, where for us the default color would be ~yellow.) They could have just been bright stars to start with, and haven't gotten far enough away yet to not be bright still. In the real world, people can see V762 Cas in Cassiopeia at 16,308 light-years away with their naked eyes (it is kinda hard). This is more than 2 times further away than the furthest the scar could possibly have moved in 11,000 years, and I'm still not actually sure they have been moving for that long. I think the parallax thing might actually matter a lot, because though parallax is typically measured against background stars, that doesn't mean it doesn't *happen* without them, the result would just be that the scar looks different from different angles, which is exactly what we see. This would actually even explain why the scar appears to change occasionally, they could also be moving relative to each other. I don't think the point about the scar being 'in' the cosmere really matters. The cosmere is not an open cluster, it is *like* an open cluster, I think it would be reasonable to consider it to be 'all of the things that exist that matter to this story' and by that definition, if there is a shard there doing this thing, that would still be 'in' cosmere. I think, at least for me, the place where our arguments seem to be missing each other is that you are saying: ~'they are moving so fast they can't be here any more', and I am saying, 'speed and distance aren't the same thing'. These objects are travelling *very* fast on a galactic scale, but 11,000 years is very little *time* on a galactic scale. The milky way has been around for 13.6 *billion* years. If that much time had passed, I agree, those stars would just be gone, but, even on a open cluster scale, 11,000 years just isn't that much time for stuff to have moved. Edited February 9 by heliovox Spelling 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 9 Report Share Posted February 9 12 minutes ago, heliovox said: Stars don't disappear because they have moved out of the cluster they were originally in, they disappear because they are too dim to be seen, and neither the distance here nor the redshift here would be enough to do that. I didn't ever propose that they would disappear once outside Cosmere. I said they would dim rapidly as they are moving away and they would leave Cosmere and the galaxy very quickly. 19 minutes ago, heliovox said: When I originally specified the .67c number, I calculated that based off of a shift from 'blue' light (400nm) to 'red' light (670 nm). This sort of shift doesn't star actually making stars 'dimmer' until that light starts shifting into the infrared, at which point it becomes dimmer because the light is fading out of the range at which we can *see*. It will dim based on the infrared - wavelengths below blue would be shifted into infrared. But I don't even account for redshift dimming, I assume everyone would observe them as they are already moving away at that speed, so nobody would know how they looked before getting that speed. 21 minutes ago, heliovox said: (Thinking about this, I actually wonder if the threnodites don't see the scar as red because of the 'what is blue' problem, their eyes just see red as the default color, so everything is variations off of that, where for us the default color would be ~yellow.) Yes, it seems likely. Their eyesight adapted to red color, just like in Yumi spoilers: Spoiler ch 2: Quote This scarlet sun painted the landscape…well, perfectly ordinary colors. That’s how the brain works. Once you’d been there a few hours, you wouldn’t notice the light was a shade redder. But when you first arrived, it would look striking. Like the scene of a bloody massacre everyone is too numb to acknowledge. 25 minutes ago, heliovox said: They could have just been bright stars to start with, and haven't gotten far enough away yet to not be bright still. With 0.67c it's impossible for them to get far enough and still be that bright. The brightness of the light must decrease following the inverse-square law. 28 minutes ago, heliovox said: In the real world, people can see V762 Cas in Cassiopeia at 16,308 light-years away with their naked eyes (it is kinda hard) You said it yourself, I have nothing else to add. 29 minutes ago, heliovox said: I think the parallax thing might actually matter a lot, because though parallax is typically measured against background stars, that doesn't mean it doesn't *happen* without them, the result would just be that the scar looks different from different angles, which is exactly what we see. The parallax happens relative to something. If you can't find a reference point, you can't do that. But that was not my point at all. You can't see several stars in both a curve and a straight line from a few light years away, if those stars are really far away. They would look the same - the entire constellation would become smaller overtime, but the shape would be the same - either curve or a straight line. Not both at the same time. This means those stars HAVE to be close to be viewed differently from different vantage points. And if they are close, they can't move at the ludicrous speed of 0.67c. 35 minutes ago, heliovox said: This would actually even explain why the scar appears to change occasionally, they could also be moving relative to each other. They should be moving relative to each other. Each star has their own velocity, sometimes they are in groups and move together. But if they are inside a star cluster, which moves together from the outside point of view, then from the inside perspective all stars would move a bit differently, they would wiggle, each in their own direction. If you then suddenly accelerate to 0.67c then those stars would just shoot out in random directions, scattering the entire constellation within a single lifespan of a person. There would be no Scar at all, unless the Scar is a moving group within the star cluster - but that can't be the case because not every star in the Skar is red. 40 minutes ago, heliovox said: I don't think the point about the scar being 'in' the cosmere really matters. The cosmere is not an open cluster, it is *like* an open cluster, Cosmere is a star cluster, the one that fits the most to its description is an open cluster - so that's from where we can estimate the dimensions of Cosmere. 40 minutes ago, heliovox said: I think it would be reasonable to consider it to be 'all of the things that exist that matter to this story' and by that definition, if there is a shard there doing this thing, that would still be 'in' cosmere. Disagree. Cosmere is specifically a star cluster and Shards were unable to leave Cosmere up to this point. The story might leave Cosmere but it still be about Cosmere. Spoiler Gallumbazos I've been wondering if we were going to leave the cosmere star cluster and see how things are beyond that, guess it's confirmed. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) Brandon Sanderson "Tried to" is operative here. General Reddit 2019 (Dec. 11, 2019) 45 minutes ago, heliovox said: I think, at least for me, the place where our arguments seem to be missing each other is that you are saying: ~'they are moving so fast they can't be here any more', and I am saying, 'speed and distance aren't the same thing'. These objects are travelling *very* fast on a galactic scale, but 11,000 years is very little *time* on a galactic scale. The milky way has been around for 13.6 *billion* years. If that much time had passed, I agree, those stars would just be gone, but, even on a open cluster scale, 11,000 years just isn't that much time for stuff to have moved. That's not my full argument. My argument is that they are moving too fast for people not to see them dimming and changing shapes within their lifetime. If they were moving since the Shattering, they would no longer be the brightest object in the night sky because they would be simply too far away. There is no way for the Scar to be perceived as both curved and straight if they are far away, and because they are moving really fast it takes a very short time to be far away to be viewed as one shape from all of Cosmere. And while speed and distance aren't the same, they are dependent on - v=d/t. If stars are moving tens of light years within a single lifespan then that change in distance would produce a noticeable change to the brightness and shape of the Scar. It's not the galactic scale that matters anymore, it's a human space. Those speeds are too much not to produce changes in the night sky. And the Scar is within Cosmere, thus those stars are really close, so a drastic change in distance starting from that close point would produce a drastic change on a night sky - which is not observed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heliovox Posted February 9 Author Report Share Posted February 9 Yeah, that's pretty damning. Hmmmmm. I want to pivot to an argument about the movement starting much more recently, but I can't make a good argument about it, because I don't know for sure how long after the shattering SoS took place (i.e. if the movement started just a bit earlier than SoS, and the stars started quite near to Threnody, then the map might still make sense). I am mostly looking for reasons that those stars would be red other than because of corrupted investiture, because that both seems to obvious for a cosmere thing, and is something we absolutely have not seen on that scale, and this seemed like the most obvious alternative. I think I am going to give up for the moment, but reserve the right to circle back if I can come up with further justifications. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 9 Report Share Posted February 9 (edited) 52 minutes ago, heliovox said: I want to pivot to an argument about the movement starting much more recently, but I can't make a good argument about it, because I don't know for sure how long after the shattering SoS took place (i.e. if the movement started just a bit earlier than SoS, and the stars started quite near to Threnody, then the map might still make sense). So the timeline is more or less like that: around 11000 years after the Shattering WoK takes place (in Rosharan years that's ~6000 years to Aharietiam and 4500 years to WoK), then, from the year 1173 (1167 if you start at Gavilar's assassination) to 1175/1176 the first 5 books of SA take place. Then there is a 10-15 year gap in between SA 5 and SA 6, during which Mistborn Era 2 takes place, which spans across 6-10 years (don't remember now). However, the Threnody story takes place before WoK but after Mistborn Era 1 and Warbreaker. We don't know the precise placement of SfSitFoH (that's a perfect acronym). In later WoBs Brandon decided that Warbreaker takes place a few generations before WoK, however based on that alone we don't know if it's still before or after the Threnody story. Brandon often changes the chronology and in the past SoS was placed hundreds of years before WoK, we have to ask Brandon when Silence takes place relative to Warbreaker to know for sure. The problem with this happening relatively recently is that this would send ripples across the entire scientific community - everyone on Roshar and Scadrial (even on Threnody) would notice that the Scar suddenly turned red and this would have been mentioned. And also this doesn't solve the problem of those stars noticeably dimming within just a few decades. Something like this would be a massive event. Spoiler Questioner Can you put the Cosmere books into [chronological] order? Brandon Sanderson Here is the order that I have publicly confirmed. There are obviously other books and stories fitting in there. For those, you’ll just need to RAFO. Elantris The Emperor’s Soul First Mistborn trilogy (The Final Empire) Warbreaker Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell The Stormlight Archive Wax and Wayne Era Mistborn (Alloy of Law) Sixth of the Dusk Future Mistborn trilogy Miscellaneous 2016 (July 15, 2016) Spoiler LewsTherinTelescope How long after Warbreaker does Way of Kings take place? I know you usually don't finalize timeline details until they actually are stated in-book, but are you willing to say how far apart the books are, in the current plans? Brandon Sanderson I have Warbreaker happening a few generations before, right now. However, I'm very likely to move Elantris up in time, so it's a little in the air at the moment. LewsTherinTelescope Thanks! I assume asking why Elantris being moved affects how far apart Warbreaker and Way of Kings are is a behind-the-scenes thing and/or RAFO? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, it does. The big linchpin is going to be when I need Sel and Scadrial to align when big crossovers start happening. We'll know in a few years; there are things I intend to write that I could imagine needing to change, after they're finished, that will influence the timeline structure. General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 5, 2020) 52 minutes ago, heliovox said: I am mostly looking for reasons that those stars would be red other than because of corrupted investiture, because that both seems to obvious for a cosmere thing, and is something we absolutely have not seen on that scale, and this seemed like the most obvious alternative. Sometimes obvious things are ok and needed. Other alternatives are that they are just a bunch of red giants existing in the same area for whatever reasons - it is believed that Cosmere was created by Adonalsium and he might have wanted to have those stars there with some goal in his mind. He created the Rosharan system which is very unusual already. Another option that I've just thought of today, based on the WoB about a Shard trying to escape Cosmere, is that it was Ambition's investiture which Odium Splintered and moved into PR, scattering it across huge area, making a nebula of investiture - this isn't in stars, but in front of those stars. It may or may not be corrupted. There were WoBs saying that Odium had learnt from Sel and he did something different yet similar to Ambition to prevent someone from Ascending - it may be just that. So that was Ambition who tried to escape Cosmere and the Scar is a literal scar where Ambition was finally killed. But that's a giant speculation. Or it can be something unknown - maybe it's just a cloud of normal dust, as Isaac said. Spoiler Argent ...The reason Odium dealt with the Selish Shards in the way that he did, whether that was primarily because he was inexperienced in Splintering and so he knew that he wanted nobody to take the Shards-- Brandon Sanderson There were better ways he could have done what he did. Argent And he then learned at least a little bit better? Brandon Sanderson He learned at least a little bit better. JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018) Spoiler Questioner So, Sel: Investiture has been pushed into the Cognitive Realm. Threnody: Has it seen something similar? Brandon Sanderson It has not seen... Okay. Yes, something similar. It would count. Something similar, yes. Questioner If that's the case, what would happen if you were to push Investiture into the Physical Realm? Brandon Sanderson It generally manifests either as a solid, liquid, or gas Questioner I thought about that. I was like, "We've seen that," but it seemed like a concentrated form. What if you did for like a whole Shard? Brandon Sanderson That would probably have disastrous effects. Questioner That's why I was thinking for Threnody, but if it hasn't been that, then something else happened. Brandon Sanderson It hasn't been that. Something else happened. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) I really had fun here I like space related stuff, even if I'm not educated enough, I still learnt a bit having this discussion with you. Edited February 9 by alder24 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scriptorian he/him Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 To rewind back to the possibility of time dilation for a moment: I’d have to dust of my astrophysics minor to say with any precision, but it takes a lot of mass in one place to cause time dilation that would be meaningful on human time scales. Granted, the rules are probably different for Investiture—like allomantic time bubbles don’t require singularities to function— but I get the impression when Brandon is talking about Investiture warping time like a black hole, he’s talking about the raw density of Investiture in a small area causing a similar effect, not Investiture being put to that specific purpose. And if the quantities of Investiture needed for this are remotely comparable to those needed with mass, I just don’t see that happening on a planetary scale. Like, we’d be talking the planet’s mass in Investiture several times over. At that point the whole thing would just be a perpendicularity, I think. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heliovox Posted February 15 Author Report Share Posted February 15 I'm actually working on the Selish time dialation right now. As we have seen, I am far from perfect on these things, but I think we can set some reasonable bounds to how aggressive the time dialation is on Sel based on what we know about when how much time has to have passed between the shattering and when Grump and Moonlight left Sel. One of the things I think I have successfully established in other places is that investiture is pretty dense, and the remnants of two shards would have a *lot* of it, so I don't think it is impossible to have localized time dialation like this, particularly since investiture has a level of handwavium to it. My biggest problem is actually that I think different pieces of sel would actually have different *amounts* of time dialation, since the cognitive does have locations, and the bulk of the Dor is not everywhere in the cognitive, otherwise no one would be able to get in or out. These differing amounts of time dialation would be noticible, I think, so, for instance, time would travel 'faster' in the rose empire than Elantris (maybe?). I'm still working on this, I'll try to have better detail on friday. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 (edited) 59 minutes ago, heliovox said: since the cognitive does have locations, and the bulk of the Dor is not everywhere in the cognitive I think this is a false assumption. The fact that the Dor fills Sel's Cognitive and because the Cognitive does have location is why every national identity has a different Manifestation of Sel's Investiture Focus. The Dor is everywhere in Sel's Cognitive (and pressurized to boot), traversing it is a matter of preperation and technique - not location or investiture "tides." There are a lot of WoBs (each with tiny chunks of the whole) So I won't quote them all (see link), but the three most relevant are: Spoiler Quote Dragon13 Is the conduit that seems to be powering the Ire fortress, can that act as a safe passage through the Cognitive Realm of Sel? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Maybe not the way that you're implying, but yes. Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018) Spoiler Questioner Exactly how turbulent is the Cognitive Realm around Sel? Khriss seems to think it's rather difficult [to travel] but how difficult would it be for Hoid to get through? Brandon Sanderson How difficult would it be to get through to Sel, how difficult would it be for Hoid. I would say straining his resources and capacity. It is difficult for him. So take that as you will. But it is worth his effort and he has done it numerous times. JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018) Quote Questioner Can you describe what Shadesmar looks like on either Nalthis or Sel. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. On Sel? Looks like a big old storm that will destroy you. More than a storm, it's like a big pressurized-- it's like plasma, almost. It is really dangerous. Really dangerous. That 'cause the Dor is hanging out there. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) Edited February 15 by Treamayne SPAG 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heliovox Posted February 15 Author Report Share Posted February 15 (edited) 13 hours ago, Treamayne said: I think this is a false assumption. The fact that the Dor fills Sel's Cognitive and because the Cognitive does have location is why every national identity has a different Manifestation of Sel's Investiture Focus. The Dor is everywhere in Sel's Cognitive (and pressurized to boot), traversing it is a matter of preparation and technique - not location or investiture "tides." I am not one hundred percent committed to the time dilation being different on different parts of Sel, largely because, though we have been told that the Dor (or side effects of the Dor) are causing time dilation, the way *investiture* works in the cognitive and the way *mass* works in the physical absolutely will not be the same, and black holes are the best analog we have to how the Dor would generate time dilation. I am actually not planning to base any of my predictions on the Dor varying in position and density, but I think there is some reason to think that it does, and that most of the WoBs do not preclude it doing this. The time dilation that the Dor is causing actually can't be that strong. The Rose Empire is ~1000-3500 years old, and possibly doesn't perfectly coincide with the creation of the Dor, but the moon scepter is a translation device for things that would not have existed before the Dor existed, and is a piece of the Rose Empires reglia long enough for people to apparently at least *kind* of forget what it does. The Dor would have been created 'shortly' after the shattering (no idea exactly how long, but it basically doesn't matter). This means that, in order for people to have been able to do things on Sel and then *leave* Sel and be able to interact with the rest of the the ~TLM era cosmere, the strongest the time dilations can be is ~7:1 (For every one 'year' on Sel, seven years happen in the rest of the cosmere. I am going to use Miller's planet from Interstellar as an example here, because we don't have many... particularly good real world examples. The time dilation on Miller's planet would have been 1:61300! (One hour on the planet was 7 *years* in the rest of the universe)The black hole there is hilariously big, but Miller's planet isn't actually that close to it. Sel overlaps with Sel's cognitive, so they are arguably closer. I think this makes the best analog for real world time dilation a 'small' black hole. The problem with that is that the time dilation from small black holes vary *wildly* as you actually get close to them, effectively going to infitity:1 when you actually hit the event horizon (kinda what the event horizon is). I am not saying the Dor behaves exactly like this, but if the Dor is under enough pressure that it starts squeezing out of cracks when they are opened into the real world, that suggests that, as a plasma (like lightning) it is also constantly looking for step leaders out into other nearby locations, and as a result is probably sort of surging about. I think this is part of what makes the Sel cognitive so dangerous. Since just about the biggest ratio we can get is 1:7, I don't think that there would be huge differences here, but it would not surprise me at all if there are times on Sel where an hour on one part of the planet is not the same length as an hour on another part, and they kinda rubberband back and forth a bit. If one was really careful, one might be able to use this to their advantage, but it would be quite hard. 13 hours ago, Treamayne said: Hide contents Reveal hidden contents Questioner Exactly how turbulent is the Cognitive Realm around Sel? Khriss seems to think it's rather difficult [to travel] but how difficult would it be for Hoid to get through? Brandon Sanderson How difficult would it be to get through to Sel, how difficult would it be for Hoid. I would say straining his resources and capacity. It is difficult for him. So take that as you will. But it is worth his effort and he has done it numerous times. JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018) I don't think the conduit here matters at all... maybe it could be made into some sort of investiture faraday cage? That would not be affected by whether the Dor has different densities in different places. The Dor looking like a storm possibly reinforces my point, a storm has gradiations, if it was a uniform, it would just look like... frozen lightning? Pressurized plasma is... almost an oxymoron. So there is something weird going on there, it would be trying to escape in every direction. What makes plasma plasma is that it is so energetic that all the electrons have been stripped off the gas. Pressurizing that would usually force the electrons back on. I almost can't think of any way for plasma to be uniform, and in order to avoid gradations in the dilation, it would have to be. Edited February 15 by heliovox Posted an incorrect example. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 Beware of SPAG - I don't know if it was a typing speed thing, or an autocorrect thing, but many of your uses of "Dor" came out as "door" and it made your text difficult to parse on the first reading. 1 hour ago, heliovox said: has different densities in different places. <snip> I almost can't think of any way for plasma to be uniform, and in order to avoid gradations in the dilation, it would have to be. Maybe we should begin with what you beleive this to mean or how you envision it. In the first post I responded to, it seemed like you were trying to say (my example) "Oh, of course there's less Dor available in MaiPon, most of it is in Arelon" - and that was what I was cautioning against. If, instead, you mean something like "The Dor diffuses and permeates the system, but may have the investiture equivalent of oceanic thermoclines in it's density tides" then I think we can agree. 1 hour ago, heliovox said: but the moon scepter is a translation device for things that would not have existed before the Dor existed, This is an assumption that is unlikely to be true. AonDor existed before the Splintering of Aona and Skai. Other Manifestations also existed before they were splintered. The Moon Scepter may be based in translating Selish Symbology - but it is likely that symbology was already a part of the System before the splintering and the Dor becoming trapped in the CR (region-locking the MoIs). It's certainly possible that the Scepter was created post-splintering; but it is not impossible that teh scepter predated the splintering of Aona and Skai (just as Elantris predates the splintering, and therefore the Aons predate the splintering) Spoiler Quote Evilsmiley Was Elantris built before the Shards were [Splintered] on Sel or not? Brandon Sanderson Yes, in my outline right now Elantris existed before Odium did his dirty work on Elantris. It's unlikely to change, but I do have to point out this isn't strictly canon yet, and likely won't be until I write the Elantris sequels. General Reddit 2021 (Feb. 22, 2021) Quote Brandon Sanderson Weak Aons Elantris is like a massive power conduit. It focuses the Dor, strengthening its power (or, rather, the power of the Aons to release it) in Arelon. This far away from Elantris, however, the Aons are about as powerful as they were before Raoden fixed Elantris. If you consider it, it makes logical sense that the Aons would be tied to Elantris and Arelon, yet would work without them. The Aons had to exist before Elantris–otherwise, the original Elantrians wouldn't have known the shape to make the city. Their study of AonDor taught them a method for amplifying Aon power. Elantris Annotations (May 12, 2006) Quote Questioner Will we see the Moon Scepter again? Brandon Sanderson Yes, I intend for you to see it again. But I've already said what it does, I believe. It's a Rosetta Stone for the different symbols on [the world of] Elantris that mean different things. Questioner So, it's more specific to Sel? Brandon Sanderson It's specific to Sel, it's specific to understanding the magics on Sel. It helps figure out how the different magic systems do the different things they do on Sel. So, it does have Aons along one side of it. You probably will see it again, but it will probably be in cameo. Hoid got the information he needed off of it, from that. Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heliovox Posted February 15 Author Report Share Posted February 15 25 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Beware of SPAG - I don't know if it was a typing speed thing, or an autocorrect thing, but many of your uses of "Dor" came out as "door" and it made your text difficult to parse on the first reading. Maybe we should begin with what you beleive this to mean or how you envision it. In the first post I responded to, it seemed like you were trying to say (my example) "Oh, of course there's less Dor available in MaiPon, most of it is in Arelon" - and that was what I was cautioning against. If, instead, you mean something like "The Dor diffuses and permeates the system, but may have the investiture equivalent of oceanic thermoclines in it's density tides" then I think we can agree. Yeah, I think we just agree on this, I was just using the Rose Empire vs. Elantris as an example of places time could be moving differently at different times. The age of the scepter doesn't matter that much, it makes a difference between (maybe) 1:7 and 1:8 dilation, it just seemed like a useful example of when the Dor could have started doing weird things. Sorry about the spag, I thought I had fixed it all, and then thought I had fixed it all, and then thought I had fixed it all, but there was always more. I am not brief. Onward to more wacky science based speculation! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 (edited) 16 minutes ago, heliovox said: Sorry about the spag, I thought I had fixed it all, and then thought I had fixed it all, and then thought I had fixed it all, but there was always more No worries. As a dyslexic*, I'm more sensitive and I also have a lot of SPAG (and each time I edit to fix, i tend to find at least one more after I have saved the edit. 16 minutes ago, heliovox said: Yeah, I think we just agree on this, I was just using the Rose Empire vs. Elantris as an example of places time could be moving differently at different times. That's fine. I'm not too convinced that different parts of Sel have/can have/have had different temporal frames of reference. Brandon makes it sound much more like the whole planet has one dilation effect because the whole of Sel's Cognitive is stuffed with investiture. If you want an "objective" frame of reference to work on, one thing that has bothered me a lot is that the Ire in M:SH are described similar to the Reod Elantrians (Bald/losing hair, wrinkled skin, etc) but the timeline puts the events of Elantris well before the events of HoA (since that encounter is in the time between WoA and HoA). That might provide an "objective" comparison on how much subjective time post-Shattering (or post-splintering of the Ds) happened in the Selish adn Scadrian systems respectively. If it's been only 1-2000 yrs since Odium was on Sel according to the Selish frame of reference, but it's been 6+k yrs in the Scadrian frame of reference (assuming we can get confirmation that there is a connection in those character descriptions) that might help pin down how extensive the dilation has become (there is only 10 Sel-years during which the Ire might have encountered Kelsier in the Scadrian Shadesmar perimeter). We discuss it at length in this thread. * Note: Spoiler According to Army doctors - what they called (in 1998) an Output Dyslexic - I scramble things on output rather than input or during processing information. Especially bad with typing anything or numbers written or spoken. Much less impact in verbal output. Edited February 15 by Treamayne SPAG/Clarity/Example 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scriptorian he/him Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 I’m probably getting too hung up on the comparison to actual gravity, but I ran some numbers, and to get time dilation at a x1/7 factor across a planet would take hundreds of solar masses. Billions of times the mass of an earth-like planet. Probably not coincidently, this is because we’re talking about billions of times more time dilation than you’d normally experience on the earth’s surface. So I think any meaningful time dilation on this scale would have to be the result of Investiture being magic (i.e. like a Cadmium bubble), rather than it behaving like a black hole’s time dilation in any meaningful physics sense. Also the idea of different rates of time dilation across a planet’s surface just hurts me brain. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heliovox Posted February 15 Author Report Share Posted February 15 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scriptorian said: So I think any meaningful time dilation on this scale would have to be the result of Investiture being magic (i.e. like a Cadmium bubble), rather than it behaving like a black hole’s time dilation in any meaningful physics sense. Some chance Brandon changes it, but the way he talks in the original example, suggests it is more of a 'force of nature' thing to me: Quote Jeremy If vast amounts of Investiture can distort time in a similar manner as a black hole, [...] does that include Shards? Would time dilation be greater on Roshar than on Nalthis? Brandon Sanderson No, because the Shard is contained almost entirely in the Spiritual Realm. In the Spiritual Realm, time and distance have no meaning. So, what this means is: Large piles of Investiture that somehow make it into the Cognitive Realm or the Physical Realm are going to cause time dilation, but the Spiritual Realm—where it belongs—it's not going to do that. That's gonna make some exclamation points raise above the heads of some people. The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021) Which says black hole behavior to me. Magic requires intent. 2 hours ago, Scriptorian said: Also the idea of different rates of time dilation across a planet’s surface just hurts me brain. No, its fun! It's science! Gravity waves! oooo! Edited February 15 by heliovox 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heliovox Posted February 18 Author Report Share Posted February 18 (edited) Ok, I'm going to try and line some stuff up with the potential time distortion on Sel. tl;dr: I think the Dor's time distortion is consistent with dense enough investiture behaving like a black hole, but also... I predict that the physical and cognitive realms are actually... kinda far away from each other? (I'm not entirely sure what that means.) Baseline: I am going to use this as ~ detail timeline, there may be some small inconsistencies, but at the time scales we are talking about, they won't matter that much. Amount of time we 'know' has passed on Sel: The rose empire has existed for 1000-3500 years. Both because we don't know how long a year is on Sel and for good approximation, I am going to assume 1000. Elantris was built, at the least ~1000 years before the Reod (probably more, since it 'probably' predates the splintering of devotion and dominion) but it doesn't matter that much, because this basically just means I am going to use ~1000 years as a baseline for the minimum amount of time the Dor could have existed, and from a time dilation point of view, that still isn't very long. Since this definitely took place after the shattering, this gives us a pretty strong upper limit for the time dilation of 1:10 (if only 1000 years have passed on, and this means 10,000 years have passed everywhere else in the cosmere, that barely leaves any time for anything else to have happened). There are several things that we know bridge from Sel to the outside cosmere: Roshar: Ala and Galladon are seen on Roshar around ~11,000 years after the shattering. Riino is seen in the rosharan cognitive around the same time as these, and seems to have been there for awhile (we don't have a good measure of this, but we do know almost exactly when he left Sel. Of these, Ala and Galladon are somewhat useful as reference points, but Riino is probably the most useful, since we can be pretty sure he left Sel right after getting thrown into the perpendicularity (he *probably* didn't hang around the Dor for long), and though we do not know exactly how long he took getting to Roshar, he at the very least seems to have gotten in touch with the Ire, and then made his way to Roshar. I think this can set the minimum time between him leaving Sel and when Kaladin meets him as ~100 years (it is probably more than this, but I am trying to set bounds). Scadrial: Dao, Kaise and Shai are all members or otherwise attached to the Ghostbloods on Scadrial. Of these, Kaise is probably the most important, because they would probably have to take the most significant action to extend their life (Dao is an Aon, and who knows what Shai can do). Unfortunately, this doesn't let us limit stuff much more than Riino. If anything, it suggests an even shorter time frame between Elantris and era 2 mistborn, if we have a 10:1 time dilation) Kaise could have left Sel 20 years after the events of Elantris, and had the time in the rest of the cosmere be ~100 years again with no additional ill effects. The Ire fortress is also in the Scadrial cognitive. This provides us with a lot of useful information, but unfortunately, we don't know when they *got* there. Despite this, there are a couple of things to note: The Ire at the fortress appear Reod (it is possible that this is just an effect of being so far away from Sel, but Riina does not appear Reod, so probably not?), and this may be why they were willing to take the risk of making an attempt on Preservation. This fits the limits of our timeline just fine, because era 1 and era 2 are ~300 years apart, even a 3:1 ratio would cause the Reod to be in effect for 30 years for the rest of the cosmere, scaling up to 10:1 would get us 100 years. This does actually raise some other problems, however, because the effects of dilation on time effect the flow of things out of the location being dilated as well. The conduit that the Ire are using to feed them energy from the Dor should have dropped in efficiency by the same scale as the time dilation. This would probably mean that the events between Kelsier and the Ire at the fortress had to take place very early after the Reod took hold. I wonder if they had to stop supporting the fortress shortly after failing to take up preservation. This gives us our minimum possible time dilation. If it is much less than 1:3, because otherwise we don't have the time to get between when the Ire are doing there thing in Era 1 and when Shai and company take their actions in Era 2. How does the cosmere treat time dilation due to investiture: We are going to have to do some pretty wild guessing here, but the fact that we have our baseline numbers above means we have a pretty good idea what the maximum and minimum time dilations can be: Minimum: 3:1, Maximum: 10:1. Our equation for ~time dilation is: Gamma (the weird symbol) is the ratio of dilation, g is the effective gravitational acceleration of the object (I will be converting this into the mass of the black hole necessary to have this force), h is how far you are away from the source of the acceleration and c^2 is the speed of light squared (9x10^16). I am going to be solving for the 'mass' of the Dor using it's effective gravitational acceleration (I don't think it actually works this way, exactly, but objects in the same reference frame as a black hole kinda don't notice their acceleration anyway, the acceleration is actually the reason their time slows down so much). h is the biggest problem for me. I am actually going to solve this two different ways, one, assuming that dilation effects leak through from the cognitive with almost no weakening (10m, which is somewhat suggested by how spren project onto the physical) and one with significant weakening (1000 m, this would make the Dor much more 'massive' which I think is suggested by what we know of Investiture. Shards can make planets, which suggests a pretty silly amount of energy). So, with our minimum assumptions, we end up with g = ((γ-1)*c^2)/h = ((3-1)*9*10^16)/10 = 1*10^16 m/s^2 Medium assumptions: ((3-1)*9*10^16)/1000 = 1*10^14 m/s^2 ((10-1)*9*10^16)/100 = 8.1*10^16 m/s^2 Maximum assumptions: ((10-1)*9*10^16)/10= 8.1*10^14 m/s^2 Then we calculate how much 'mass' Dor would have to have to exert these affects: Law of universal gravitation, edited to get rid of the mass moving at this acceleration: g =G*m/r^2 (G is the gravitational constant 6.67*10^-11, m= 'mass' of the Dor. m=(g/G)*r^2 Minimum assumptions: m =(10^16/(6.67*10^-11))*100 = 1.49 x 10^28 kg Medium: (8.1*10^16/(6.67*10^-11))*100 = 1.21 x 10^29 kg (10^14/(6.67*10^-11))*1000000 = 1.49 x 10^30 kg Maximum: (8.1*10^14/(6.67*10^-11))*1000000 = 1.21 x 10^31 kg Supermassive black holes have mass in the range of 10^35 kg, so we (unsurprisingly) aren't even close to those with our highest estimate. The smallest 'natural' black hole is ~ 6x10^30 kg (after that, they start naturally evaporating) So, if Dor is causing time dialation the 'way' a black hole would, it is basically the smallest a black hole can be and still be a black hole. I think this is consistent. An open cluster would be expected to have some black holes, but pretty much all of them would have had to form from stars pre-existing in the cluster, so we would expect to see some other things around the cosmere that behave sort of like this. The fact that the Dor would have about the same 'realmatic mass' as a black hole means that the time distortion doesn't *have* to come from magical means. It also means that shards would/could definitely just *make* a real world black hole (well, one that wouldn't radiate all of its energy away immediately) but it would strain their resources some (potentially consistent with some of the other examples of massive expenditure of investiture). Getting in the range of the 'time would act this way without additional magical interference' does require our more aggressive calculations, making it likely that both the cognitive is 'further' from the physical than basic guesses might predict, and also that the time compression is closer to 10:1 than 3:1. Edited February 18 by heliovox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 On 2/8/2024 at 10:23 AM, alder24 said: Taldain is hard to get to because Autonomy actively sealed the planet off from the rest of Cosmere, preventing Worldhopping in and out of Taldain. This WoB seems to suggest it's more complicated than that, since apparently "how did she do it?" is not a valid question: Spoiler LeFlshe How did Autonomy isolate Taldain from the rest of the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson All of the Shards... "How"? "How" may be the wrong term. Adam Horne There's a followup question, maybe it's related. "Did Bavadin remove the perpendicularity on Taldain?" Brandon Sanderson RAFO on the second one. First one, natural processes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeFlshe How did Autonomy isolate Taldain from the rest of the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson All of the Shards... "How"? "How" may be the wrong term. Adam Horne There's a followup question, maybe it's related. "Did Bavadin remove the perpendicularity on Taldain?" Brandon Sanderson RAFO on the second one. First one, natural processes.
heliovox Posted February 19 Author Report Share Posted February 19 5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: This WoB seems to suggest it's more complicated than that, since apparently "how did she do it?" is not a valid question Good, good, this means I can start working on how a blue supergiants behave when you screw with their mass. The biggest problem there is that it is way easier to effectively *stop* time with relativity than it is to speed things up (possibly impossible to speed things up with normal physics, you would need negative mass), and I kinda can't think of a reason why Bavadin would want to stop time except as a trap (maybe?). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: This WoB seems to suggest it's more complicated than that, since apparently "how did she do it?" is not a valid question True, but that doesn't really explain anything. It can be more similar to what Kelsier did in TFE - by destroying the Pits, he destroyed the Perpendicularity beneath and that's also would be considered as "using natural processes" - investiture naturally leaks in few places, big concentration of investiture tend to form a Perpendicularity, so if you prevent investiture from leaking, you prevent it from concentration and a Perpendicularity would cease to exist in that place. That's natural. Autonomy could have simply sent people to do that on Taldain, seal off the leakage from SR in that area, or create new regions where investiture leaks, but not so much to create a Perpendicularity, which might lessen the amount of investiture leaking where a Perpendicularity is, which might stop it from working. 15 hours ago, heliovox said: Roshar: Ala and Galladon are seen on Roshar around ~11,000 years after the shattering. Riino is seen in the rosharan cognitive around the same time as these, and seems to have been there for awhile (we don't have a good measure of this, but we do know almost exactly when he left Sel. 15 hours ago, heliovox said: The Ire fortress is also in the Scadrial cognitive. This provides us with a lot of useful information, but unfortunately, we don't know when they *got* there. Despite this, there are a couple of things to note: The Ire at the fortress appear Reod (it is possible that this is just an effect of being so far away from Sel, but Riina does not appear Reod, so probably not?), and this may be why they were willing to take the risk of making an attempt on Preservation. This fits the limits of our timeline just fine, because era 1 and era 2 are ~300 years apart, even a 3:1 ratio would cause the Reod to be in effect for 30 years for the rest of the cosmere, scaling up to 10:1 would get us 100 years. It's hard to say if Ire during SH were suffering from Reod or not. They are in CS, far away from the Elantris and Elantrians far away from Elantris lose visible signs of "Elantrianess." Riina can probably hack the system in the same way Shai did that, it's far enough in the future for this to become more common. Spoiler Yourigath Can you access the Dor while on other planets? Can you, I don't know, "tell the Dor" that you are on Roshar using an Aon that doesn't have the base on the map of Sel but in the world of Roshar and use Elantrian magic there? An Aon with an spiral pattern with the right lines, dots, etc... that tells the Dor "I'm here. This is Roshar. And I need your power to do X" Brandon Sanderson Great question, and one integral to the workings of cosmere Magic! No, you cannot currently access the Dor anywhere else. The Dor is a big part of why magic on Sel is distinctive. Yourigath If an Elantrian worldhops does it returns to a normal human pre-Shaod state? If this Elantrian goes back to Sel it recovers his Elantrian powers or he keeps his pre-Shaod form? Brandon Sanderson An Elantrian away from Sel would still be an Elantrian--but many of the visible signs would fade away, much like something florescent that stops glowing when moved away from a Black Light. /r/books AMA 2015 (May 22, 2015) Moreover Riino seems to have a big reputation on Roshar, big enough to attract people from PR to visit him. This suggests he spent a lot of time on Roshar already. And the way he talks about Desolations seems to imply that he is there for a very long time, long enough to be familiar with Surgebinders. Long enough to maybe witness Depositions or Radians. OB ch 97: Quote “How? Impossible. Unless … you’re Invested. What Heightening are you?” He squinted at Kaladin. “No. Something else. Merciful Domi … A Surgebinder? It has begun again?” This would align with the original timeline of Cosmere, when thousands of years were separating Elantris from SA. But a lot of things have changed since then so I simply want to point out that it's really hard to guesstimate anything because it all can be explained in multiple different ways. 15 hours ago, heliovox said: h is the biggest problem for me. I am actually going to solve this two different ways, one, assuming that dilation effects leak through from the cognitive with almost no weakening (10m, which is somewhat suggested by how spren project onto the physical) and one with significant weakening (1000 m, this would make the Dor much more 'massive' which I think is suggested by what we know of Investiture. Shards can make planets, which suggests a pretty silly amount of energy). Wouldn't it be more reasonable to assume that the Dor in CR is overlayed with the entire planet of Sel, thus you could just assume a common center of gravity? That would work better with overlying CR in PR. If by your calculation the entire Dor is equal in mass to the Sun (10^30 kg), then it works weird if you assume that the entirety of it is "stuck" only 10 meters below every single point on Sel - that's more like how SR works, not CR. And if you consider a common center of mass for both CR and PR (Sel is 9,600 km in radius), then the masses you calculate would actually be in the range of supermassive black holes, not Sun-like masses. 15 hours ago, heliovox said: So, with our minimum assumptions, we end up with g = ((γ-1)*c^2)/h = ((3-1)*9*10^16)/10 = 1*10^16 m/s^2 Medium assumptions: ((3-1)*9*10^16)/1000 = 1*10^14 m/s^2 ((10-1)*9*10^16)/100 = 8.1*10^16 m/s^2 Maximum assumptions: ((10-1)*9*10^16)/10= 8.1*10^14 m/s^2 Here is a problem with that. Those are quite big numbers. Selish people would feel them, wouldn't they? We know that Sellish g is 1.2 Cosmere standard g (which is Earth g), so in whatever way Dor affects Sel, it either produces change within the value of 1.2 g measured on Sel, or it doesn't affect gravity at all, which would be really weird with all we know about investiture = matter = energy. 15 hours ago, heliovox said: The smallest 'natural' black hole is ~ 6x10^30 kg (after that, they start naturally evaporating) Every black hole evaporates. That's the smallest black hole we know of, only because stellar mass black holes are made from a star's core collapsing. So it's not like you can't have a smaller black hole because of evaporation (that's what your text sounds like), you can't have a smaller stellar mass black hole because you would need a smaller star and a supernova of a smaller star would produce a neutron star instead of a black hole because it wouldn't be massive enough. A hypothetical primordial black hole can be much smaller than that, but those would be made shortly after the Big Bang, pre-dating stars. 16 hours ago, heliovox said: So, if Dor is causing time dialation the 'way' a black hole would, it is basically the smallest a black hole can be and still be a black hole. The "way" a black hole causes a time dilation is no different that the way anything causes time dilation 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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