CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 (edited) Hello again my lovely fellow theorists, **FULL COSMERE SPOILERS AHEAD** Today I would like to talk about our favorite sword, Nightblood. My friend and I talk about the cosmere pretty much every day at work, and at least 80% of the conversations revolve around Nightblood (surprise surprise). There are simultaneously a lot of details regarding his nature / creation, and also none at all. We have talked through the details a million different ways, and cant seem to make it make sense. OK here goes. What we know: Vasher tells us that Nightblood was created with 1000 breaths and the 'normal' Nalthian awakening process. He was a regular steel sword that was not a dawnshard, metalmind, or hemalurgic spike. When he was created, he immediately turned completely black and started leaking black smoke downwards. In recent years, Brandon has confirmed that Endowment was involved in the creation of Nightblood, beyond the 'normal' use of her investiture to awaken things. To what extent we have no idea, but she had something to do with the process. Regarding the black smoke. Brandon has told us that Nightblood leaks black smoke because the physical sword is oversaturated with investiture, so it leaks out. This leak is akin to the leaking of Stormlight from radiants / shardblades, or the leaking of dor from Elantrians. This should not be the case with 1000 normal breaths. In warbreaker, we see vivenna put 3500(?) breaths into a scarf and it does not leak at all. So, how is Nightblood different? Our current theory is that divine breath was involved somehow. That Endowment gave Nightblood a divine breath in addition to the 1000 Shasharra gave, bringing the total to about 3000 breaths (1 divine is 5th heightening). That number still seems low. Another less likely theory is that Shasharra used 1000 divine breaths to make him, which would be about 2 million breaths. That would make more sense for Nightbloods nature. However, I think Vasher would definitely have been able to tell the difference between several thousand and several million breaths. One other fun tidbit: Ruin's investiture is in Nightblood, and combining that with the wob that states Nightblood has been to more than two planets (nalthis, roshar), we can be fairly confident Nightblood has been to Scadrial. Not necessarily relevant to his creation but an interesting note. Thoughts? Edited January 26 by CtrlAltDepressed forgot some stuff / help from alder 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
listerfeend Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 8 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Our current theory is that divine breath was involved somehow. That Endowment gave Nightblood a divine breath in addition to the 1000 Shasharra gave, bringing the total to about 3000 breaths (1 divine is 5th heightening). That number still seems low. Another less likely theory is that Shasharra used 1000 divine breaths to make him, which would be about 2 million breaths. That would make more sense for Nightbloods nature. However, I think Vasher would definitely have been able to tell the difference between several thousand and several million breaths. Hello, I'm the friend, hi. Reading this, I'm wondering if there is a difference between giving something, or someone, Breaths, and using them to Awaken the thing. I don't think we've seen anything Awakened with more than a few breaths. Warbreaker Spoiler Vivenna gave her breath to that scarf using the "My Breath to yours" format, thus making those Breaths part of the underlying "fabric" (ha, see what I did there) of that scarf. I imagine that Awakening is more similar to forcing open the spirit web of the thing, and then re-writing all the bits and pieces to follow the Command/visualization, which could explain things like Awakened cloth not glowing, given the relatively few Breaths used to do that, and the nature of giving Breath vs Awakening with it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 (edited) If you want to discuss TSM spoilers this topic should be moved into the TSM section. There is no need to put everything into a spoiler box in the general Cosmere subforum, only content which is in the spoiler period now - TSM - should be put there, or readings of unpublished works (like SA5 prologue or SotD2 etc). After reading it, you can just delete the TSM reference (which doesn't bring anything into the conversation) or put it alone in the spoiler box and the rest can be put outside of the spoiler box. 1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: In warbreaker, we see vivenna put 3500(?) breaths into a scarf and it does not leak at all. So, how is Nightblood different? Vivenna didn't have 3500 Breaths, she had around 600 Breaths - the 3rd Heightening. Vasher had around 1000 and also put most/all of it into his clothes. I don't think he is just leaking because of the 1000 Breaths, he is leaking because those are corrupted Breaths and now he is oversaturated with investiture. I don't think those 1000 Breaths are leaking, but all the other investiture he consumed invested him more (he has to keep it somewhere) and that additional, consumed and corrupted investiture is leaking as black smoke. His original 1000 Breaths don't leak - they act as an artificial Divine Breath and that doesn't leak. Only what he consumed is leaking and is confirmed. The Coppermind source for "he started leaking when Awakened" was this WoB, which doesn't say that: Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him. Warbreaker Annotations (April 25, 2011) Nightblood is different, because unlike other Awakened objects, he can consume investiture and store it in the sword. Yumi spoilers: Spoiler The same thing was going on with the Father Machine, but unlike Nightblood, it just spit all of the consumed and corrupted investiture out. 1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Our current theory is that divine breath was involved somehow. That Endowment gave Nightblood a divine breath in addition to the 1000 Shasharra gave, bringing the total to about 3000 breaths (1 divine is 5th heightening) Unlikely in my opinion. The WoB you mentioned specifically said her involvement wasn't that big, and this seems very huge: Spoiler OrangeJedi When Nightblood created, was Endowment involved in any way more than normal? Brandon Sanderson Good question, you qualified that the right way! I would say yes, but maybe not to the extent you're thinking. OrangeJedi Normal being using Endowment's Investiture to Awaken. There's something special. Brandon Sanderson I would say, there is something special. Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018) 1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Another less likely theory is that Shasharra used 1000 divine breaths to make him, which would be about 2 million breaths. That would make more sense for Nightbloods nature. However, I think Vasher would definitely have been able to tell the difference between several thousand and several million breaths. Impossible, you can't transfer a Divine Breath, you can't Awaken with it like with normal Breaths. Spoiler Extesian Can you give away a Divine Breath to another human? If so would they have the same powers as a Returned or would they just 'store' it like an inanimate object that Breath is stored in when not Awakened? Does a human require a 'crack' in their spirit web to receive a divine Breath? Brandon Sanderson So, a Divine Breath-- you're kind of going along the wrong direction on that line of reasoning. Divine Breaths cannot be transferred. When they are used they immediately become kinetic Investiture and are activated. This manifests normally as healing the person, both body, mind, and soul, but you can't give it up, transfer it in the same way you can regular Breaths. Skype Q&A (Oct. 8, 2018) 1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: One other fun tidbit: Ruin's investiture is in Nightblood, and combining that with the wob that states Nightblood has been to more than two planets (nalthis, roshar), we can be fairly confident Nightblood has been to Scadrial. Not necessarily relevant to his creation but an interesting note. I don't think that's what's happening with Nightblood and Ruin's involvement. The key thing to remember is that Nightblood leaks CORRUPTED investiture, and corruption is simply mixing different Shard's investiture which changes things. Nightblood's Command is "to destroy" and who is the embodiment of destruction and entropy in Cosmere? Ruin. Shashara's Awakening accidentally invoked Ruin's power, making Nightblood "destroy" evil and corrupting investiture into Ruin's investiture - it's black, like Ruin's Mists and Ruin's form and color. I think this is the direction the WoB points towards. By Commanding Nightblood to destroy he gain ability to tap into Ruin or something like that - Ruin doesn't even have to be aware of this, his essence is omnipresent, but his mind isn't infinite and can't comprehend all of that. And Vasher was only in the PR of Nalthis and Roshar and in a few other places in CR. He wasn't in the Physical Realm on Scadrial. However, unlike Vasher, Nightblood was in more than two places in the Physical Realm. So maybe Scadrial? The newspapers in Era 2 mentioned some talking tools stuff. Still I don't think that he consumed Ruin's investiture and that's what specifically made him contain Ruin's investiture (he probably did consumed some Ruin's investiture but it's not about this, as Brandon said in the WoB Ruin's investiture is everywhere but Brandon said he's not talking that way) - he corrupts investiture, it wouldn't matter what he consumes when he corrupts all. Spoiler Walin Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but... Brandon Sanderson Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018) Spoiler Blightsong How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren that people would feel are corrupted. But that's corruption where the mixing of different Shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, what they're meaning is the mixing of Shards' powers. Blightsong So is there a mixing of Shards' powers happening with Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson *smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it. Blightsong Ok, uhhh, so something similar is happening with Gavilar's sphere, right? Brandon Sanderson *contemplative silence* RAFO. OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016) Spoiler Overlord Jebus Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard? Brandon Sanderson Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. Overlord Jebus Are they aware of that Investiture? Brandon Sanderson That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things. Overlord Jebus So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Spoiler [...] Brandon Sanderson Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time. [...] General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018) Spoiler shoeties Has Vasher ever been to a world other than Nalthis or Roshar, or was this his first time worldhopping? Brandon Sanderson Vasher has only been to Roshar and Nalthis, beyond places in Shadesmar. /r/books AMA 2015 (June 25, 2015) Spoiler Questioner How many different worlds of the cosmere has Nightblood been to in total? By which I mean, been present in the Physical Realm of that world. Brandon Sanderson More than two. Orem Signing (March 16, 2019) Edit: Sorry @listerfeend I've missed you: 47 minutes ago, listerfeend said: Reading this, I'm wondering if there is a difference between giving something, or someone, Breaths, and using them to Awaken the thing. Well giving Breaths with the Command "my Breath to yours" is Awakening, but the Command is simply inactive. The only "activity" it has is that it allows you to overwrite Breaths' identity to the one of the person you are giving them to. Objects are still invested but Breaths are just inactive. I think there is no difference and even the "my Breath yo yours" feeds on your body's color. There is simply no difference. Warbreaker ch 49: Quote He nodded. “Put the rest of your Breath somewhere else,” he said, opening the door. “We can’t afford to draw attention.” She grimaced, then did as told, putting her Breath into her shirt with a basic, and non- active, Command. It was actually the same as giving a half- spoken Command, or one that was mumbled. Those would draw out the Breath, but leave the item unable to act. Spoiler Chaos Why does giving your Breath to another person not require color? Every other Command does. Brandon Sanderson I thought I answered this in the book. You use your own color. /r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013) 47 minutes ago, listerfeend said: I don't think we've seen anything Awakened with more than a few breaths. What do you mean "a few Breaths?" Couple hundred is a few? That's quite a lot. Warbreaker ch 5: Quote “Lower me,” he Commanded. The large tapestry—woven from wool threads—sucked hundreds of Breaths from him. ch 46: Quote “Anyway, Type Three entities—regular Awakened objects—are different. BioChroma doesn’t stick to them very well at all. The result is that they require quite a bit of Investiture—often well over a hundred Breaths—to Awaken them." 47 minutes ago, listerfeend said: I imagine that Awakening is more similar to forcing open the spirit web of the thing, and then re-writing all the bits and pieces to follow the Command/visualization, which could explain things like Awakened cloth not glowing, given the relatively few Breaths used to do that, and the nature of giving Breath vs Awakening with it. I don't think so. Awakening doesn't change the soul of the Awakened objects. It's more like it grows it? Or replace it for a moment? It makes it big enough to follow Commands written in those Breaths. But we don't know the mechanism of Awakening yet so it's hard to say. Not every investiture glows - Mists don't glow. Breaths simply don't glow and that's why Awakened objects don't glow too. Moreover I think it's also because Breaths are innate investiture and thus stick to the soul, that they don't glow - they aren't static or kinetic (but not every static/kinetic investiture glows, Scadrial once more show us this). But still Breaths "leak" and this is manifested as BioChromatic Aura, deepening the colors around Awakener. Edited January 25 by alder24 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 26 Author Report Share Posted January 26 (edited) Brandon Sanderson Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him. This would seem to indicate to me that Nightblood was leaking from the moment of his creation. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: His original 1000 Breaths don't leak - they act as an artificial Divine Breath and that doesn't leak. Only what he consumed is leaking and is confirmed. The Coppermind source for "he started leaking when Awakened" was this WoB, which doesn't say that: I would argue that the 1000 he started off with would be part of consumed breaths. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Nightblood is different, because unlike other Awakened objects, he can consume investiture and store it in the sword. Yes, how is his creation any different? 2 hours ago, alder24 said: I don't think that's what's happening with Nightblood and Ruin's involvement. The key thing to remember is that Nightblood leaks CORRUPTED investiture, and corruption is simply mixing different Shard's investiture which changes things. Nightblood's Command is "to destroy" and who is the embodiment of destruction and entropy in Cosmere? Ruin. Shashara's Awakening accidentally invoked Ruin's power, making Nightblood "destroy" evil and corrupting investiture into Ruin's investiture The wob doesnt say that Ruin's investiture is involved in the creation. It states that Nightblood contains Ruin's investiture. I think thats an important distinction. That indicates to me that he has eaten someone or something that had Ruin's investiture. And yes, I know, that shards investiture permeates the entire cosmere, but he specifically says Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but... Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. to rule out the whole 'Ruin is technically everywhere' argument. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Unlikely in my opinion. The WoB you mentioned specifically said her involvement wasn't that big, and this seems very huge: What are your thoughts on her involvement? Im not sure how Endowment being involved could NOT be huge. Like, even if it was JUST her returning specific people / person because she knew they would make Nightblood, that is still effectively Endowment orchestrating the creation of Nightblood. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Impossible, you can't transfer a Divine Breath, you can't Awaken with it like with normal Breaths. I am open to that possibility but that wob does not state that you cant awaken with it. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: he corrupts investiture, it wouldn't matter what he consumes when he corrupts all. This would imply that creating another Nightblood is as easy as using 'destroy' in your command. I really dont think this is the case because in the most recent spoiler stream, he mentioned that he doesnt know if they COULD even make another Nightblood if they wanted to. This also doesnt factor in the Endowment of it all. Source below: LeFlshe At Dragonsteel this year, you confirmed that Nightblood is not a Dawnshard. However, its abilities seem to be far greater than that of Vivenna’s blade, presumably made with the same method. This disparity may be due to the person who originally Awakened the swords and leads one to believe that Nightblood, despite not being the Dawnshard, had a Dawnshard involved in its creation. Therefore, is Shashara, the person who Awakened Nightblood, a Dawnshard? Brandon Sanderson Excellent questions. You’ve got one faulty premise: Vivenna’s sword was intentionally designed differently to not get another Nightblood. So let’s keep that in mind. That said, I don’t know that they could make another Nightblood if they wanted to. But she definitely did not want to, and there’s a different process that they use nowadays for safer swords. This would also imply that the creation of Nightblood was not a normal awakening process. It cant be as simple as using 'destroy' in your command. Destroy encompasses alot of the shards. Odium is very keen on destruction, Cultivation is known for pruning, and Autonomy is on a campaign to conquer worlds with 'weak' shards. Just as a lot of the shards embody 'change' or 'peace' (or whatever hoids dawnshard is called). Edited January 26 by CtrlAltDepressed added dawn to dawnshard 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 (edited) 1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Quote Brandon Sanderson Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him. This would seem to indicate to me that Nightblood was leaking from the moment of his creation. I would argue that the 1000 he started off with would be part of consumed breaths. Please read that WoB again (emphasis added) - Nightblood did not leak until after Vasher used it to kill Shashara. He wasn't even named Nightblood when created (because, no leaks) and was renamed after he consumed Shashara, her Divine Breath and all of the normal breaths she had remaining (likely, at least 8th Heightening or more in qty). 1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I am open to that possibility but that wob does not state that you cant awaken with it. It's not in a WoB, because it's said outright in the book and annotations (which are part of the eBook as well): Spoiler Annotations to the Prologue: Quote Also, if you look, I’ve inputted in the last drafts a little hint here of Vasher being a Returned. He says he could have the Fifth Heightening if he wanted it, which is true. He has his Returned Breath suppressed, but if he let it out, he could instantly have the Fifth Heightening. However, he’d be instantly recognizable as Returned the moment he did that. Plus, he couldn’t use that Returned Breath for Awakening things. Ch 55: Quote The God King has two sources of Breath. One is his innate, divine Breath—that which makes him Returned. The other is the Breath given to him as the Treasure of Peacegiver, fifty thousand Breaths strong. That he could use as any Awakener could, as long as he is careful about the Commands he uses. Edited January 26 by Treamayne SPAG/Formatting 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 11 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Brandon Sanderson Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him. This would seem to indicate to me that Nightblood was leaking from the moment of his creation. Not at all. Read it again. Shashara and Vasher created Nightblood, gave him a name different from Nightblood, they used him in the Battle of Twilight Falls after which Vasher killed Shashara with the sword, then he called him Nightblood because of the smoke he leaked. The fact that the WoB specifies that Nightblood leaks only the Breaths he leeches off people means that he didn't leak smoke directly after his creation, only after he was used for the first time - the Battle of Twilight Falls which terrified Vasher. 11 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I would argue that the 1000 he started off with would be part of consumed breaths. Then he would not exist anymore. Those aren't consumed, those are his soul. They made him him, without those he would die. Just like Lifeless have Breaths that replace their soul, Nightblood's original 1000 Breaths make him, give him sentience and personality. Those 1000 Breaths are Awakened, they enforce his Command on him when he's drawn. They can't be replaced, they can't leak - they can't be consumed because then Nigthblood would simply stop being alive. But they could be corrupted immediately when he was Awakened. They are still tied to the core of his being, they are still his soul and don't leak, but they are corrupted with Ruin now. It's hard to say - but he can't leak them. 11 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Yes, how is his creation any different? We don't know. For once he was created to be sentient, but Vivenna's blade is sentient as well but doesn't leak anything. The intent, visualization and most importantly the Command is probably what made him this way. Not only was he Commanded to destroy but also to destroy evil - a concept that a steel sword has no idea about. Vivenna wanted to avoid creating another thing like Nightblood, she definitely used a different method and Command to Awaken her sword - something that probably Yesteel discovered: Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Lightsong Thinks about How Hallandren Wouldn't Fall He's wrong here. If he hadn't intervened and taken responsibility, the God King would have died, and another Manywar would have begun. It would have ended with Hallandren in flames, destroyed by the advancing Idrian coalition, who by then would have gained the secret to creating swords like Nightblood from Yesteel, who is hiding in one of the kingdoms across the mountains and who secretly knows what Vasher did to create the sword. He would have brought his kingdom into the conflict. And the world would have burned. Warbreaker Annotations (March 21, 2011) Warbreaker ch 51: Quote With Nightblood, she and Vasher had spent much time in thought, then finally chosen a simple, yet elegant, Command. “Destroy evil.” It had seemed like such a perfect, logical choice. There was only one problem, something neither of them had foreseen. How was an object of steel—an object that was so removed from life that it would find the experience of living strange and alien—supposed to understand what “evil” was? 11 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: The wob doesnt say that Ruin's investiture is involved in the creation. It states that Nightblood contains Ruin's investiture. I think thats an important distinction. That indicates to me that he has eaten someone or something that had Ruin's investiture. And yes, I know, that shards investiture permeates the entire cosmere, but he specifically says Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but... Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. to rule out the whole 'Ruin is technically everywhere' argument. And that for me rules out that he's just eaten some of Ruin's investiture. It doesn't matter if Ruin's investiture was involved in his creation, that wasn't the question (and the answer is most likely no), and the next WoB I gave specifically asks if corruption as described is happening in Nightblood, to which Brandon said it's a good question. For me this means every investiture Nightblood consumes (most likely excluding his original Breaths because they aren't consumed) he corrupts into Ruin's investiture. And because he corrupts only what he consumes he would start holding Ruin's investiture when he was used for the first time - the Battle of the Twilight Falls. 11 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: What are your thoughts on her involvement? Im not sure how Endowment being involved could NOT be huge. Like, even if it was JUST her returning specific people / person because she knew they would make Nightblood, that is still effectively Endowment orchestrating the creation of Nightblood. I have no idea. Maybe Shashara was Returned to create such a weapon and she dreamt of this moment? Those dreams aren't crystal clear, they can give you some clues but they can also be misleading. In that case Endowment wouldn't be directly involved in Nightblood's creation. Or maybe she did something more, gave him a little push to make him as he is - she isn't concerned about Rayse getting out of Roshar and confidently said "he would be dealt with" and I think Nightblood was somewhat involved in her plan of dealing with freed Rayse. Or maybe Endowment pushed "definition" of what it means to destroy evil on Nightblood, which made him act like he acts. We have to wait for the sequel to know, there is no information about it at all. 11 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I am open to that possibility but that wob does not state that you cant awaken with it. It does. You can't Awaken with Divine Breath because it can't be transferred - to Awaken you need to transfer Breaths. You can't Awaken with Divine Breath because it is turned into kinetic investiture - Awakened objects have Breaths in the form of static/innate investiture (most likely - a Seeker can't detect that which rules out kinetic investiture). And this WoB: Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Also, if you look, I've inputted in the last drafts a little hint here of Vasher being a Returned. He says he could have the Fifth Heightening if he wanted it, which is true. He has his Returned Breath suppressed, but if he let it out, he could instantly have the Fifth Heightening. However, he'd be instantly recognizable as Returned the moment he did that. Plus, he couldn't use that Returned Breath for Awakening things. Warbreaker Annotations (July 13, 2010) 11 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: This would imply that creating another Nightblood is as easy as using 'destroy' in your command. I really dont think this is the case because in the most recent spoiler stream, he mentioned that he doesnt know if they COULD even make another Nightblood if they wanted to. This also doesnt factor in the Endowment of it all. Precisely because of Endowment's involvement, creating another Nightblood would be most likely impossible. If it would be as "easy" as giving a sword tons of Divine Breaths it would be replicable. But, Yumi spoilers: Spoiler The Father Machine was much more destructive than Nightblood, it turned everyone into raw investiture, stripping them out of their identity. So entities like Nightblood were already created. 11 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: This would also imply that the creation of Nightblood was not a normal awakening process It was an Awakening process, he was Awakened and Brandon literally said "a different process." Just like you can Awaken Lifeless in many different ways - there is one that makes you spend only a single Breath, and there are those that need dozens or tens of Breaths - you can Awaken Nightblood in a different way as well. The first step is to use a different Command. I suspect that Awakening objects like Nightblood is a two step process - the first step involves bringing him into sentience and giving him 1000 Breaths by using some kind of Command similar to Awakening Lifeless, the second gives him the Command to "destroy evil." Or this different process might simply be not giving a piece of steel Commands about abstract ideas like evil and destruction. 11 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: It cant be as simple as using 'destroy' in your command. Destroy encompasses alot of the shards. Odium is very keen on destruction, Cultivation is known for pruning, and Autonomy is on a campaign to conquer worlds with 'weak' shards. Just as a lot of the shards embody 'change' or 'peace' (or whatever hoids dawnshard is called). Odium is about conflict (RoW Sja-Anat interlude) he doesn't even want to destroy Roshar, Cultivation is about cultivating (which isn't destruction), Autonomy is weirdly about control but also independence (she's a Kelsier's fangirl after all) - just because they cause destruction doesn't mean they embody destruction and entropy like Ruin does. Both Ruin and Cultivation are about change, but Ruin is about destructive change, while Cultivation is about change that causes growth, which are two different things. Still this doesn't matter here, the intent of "destroy evil" matters and that most likely was the closest to Ruin. It wasn't the sole reason why Nightblood was made this way, but it's a very important one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
listerfeend Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 12 hours ago, Treamayne said: Annotations to the Prologue: Quote Also, if you look, I’ve inputted in the last drafts a little hint here of Vasher being a Returned. He says he could have the Fifth Heightening if he wanted it, which is true. He has his Returned Breath suppressed, but if he let it out, he could instantly have the Fifth Heightening. However, he’d be instantly recognizable as Returned the moment he did that. Plus, he couldn’t use that Returned Breath for Awakening things. Ch 55: Quote The God King has two sources of Breath. One is his innate, divine Breath—that which makes him Returned. The other is the Breath given to him as the Treasure of Peacegiver, fifty thousand Breaths strong. That he could use as any Awakener could, as long as he is careful about the Commands he uses. I'm gonna get real real pedantic here and just point out, neither of those actually say that Divine Breath can't be used for Awakening. I suspect that your interpretation of these quotes is correct, what is meant is likely that Divine Breath cannot be used like that. However: in the annotations, "he couldn't use that Returned Breath" could literally just be because, to use it would mean his death. Similarly in the passage about the God King, this distinction between Divine and normal Breaths would be made because of the same thing. If Suse were to attempt to Awaken with that Divine Breath (assuming that it is actually possible, and honestly that would be just like Brando, he'd burry the lead like that) he would die, as a Returned cannot live without their Divine Breath + 1 Breath/week (or whatever the time span was) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 26 Author Report Share Posted January 26 47 minutes ago, alder24 said: Precisely because of Endowment's involvement, creating another Nightblood would be most likely impossible. If it would be as "easy" as giving a sword tons of Divine Breaths it would be replicable. But, Yumi spoilers: Hide contents The Father Machine was much more destructive than Nightblood, it turned everyone into raw investiture, stripping them out of their identity. So entities like Nightblood were already created. Not super clear on the timeline here, Nightblood predates the father machine, yes? 48 minutes ago, alder24 said: Brandon Sanderson Lightsong Thinks about How Hallandren Wouldn't Fall He's wrong here. If he hadn't intervened and taken responsibility, the God King would have died, and another Manywar would have begun. It would have ended with Hallandren in flames, destroyed by the advancing Idrian coalition, who by then would have gained the secret to creating swords like Nightblood from Yesteel, who is hiding in one of the kingdoms across the mountains and who secretly knows what Vasher did to create the sword. He would have brought his kingdom into the conflict. And the world would have burned. How does this reconcile with what you said about Endowments involvment? Are we to believe Endowment is also helping Yesteel make more nightbloods, or is this a misspeak by brandon and he means swords like vivennas? 51 minutes ago, alder24 said: It was an Awakening process, he was Awakened and Brandon literally said "a different process." Just like you can Awaken Lifeless in many different ways - there is one that makes you spend only a single Breath, and there are those that need dozens or tens of Breaths - you can Awaken Nightblood in a different way as well. The first step is to use a different Command. I suspect that Awakening objects like Nightblood is a two step process - the first step involves bringing him into sentience and giving him 1000 Breaths by using some kind of Command similar to Awakening Lifeless, the second gives him the Command to "destroy evil." Or this different process might simply be not giving a piece of steel Commands about abstract ideas like evil and destruction. Again these details just arent lining up. On their own, in a silo, I agree with everything that you've said. But one of these things has to give. Either Yesteel cannot create new nightbloods and he meant swords like vivennas (which admittedly would still be a huge game changer to nalthian war). Or Endowment wasnt involved (not likely). I dont really subscribe to this idea of invoking another shards investiture like that. I dont remember seeing any sort of evidence of that and it seems unlikely to be the case. If it worked like this, Nalthians would have invoked other shards investiture all the time. I dont see how youre making the connection that by investing nightblood with endowments investiture, it somehow starts corrupting only new investiture into ruins? How does that make sense? Any time someone commands an awakening in the heat of an emotion (like a battle, etc) are they invoking odiums investiture? In addition to that, corrupted investiture shouldnt result in ruins investiture, if that makes any sense? what i mean by that is, since nightblood is corrupting the investiture he consumes, there must be some mechanism / other investiture ALREADY inside nightblood to create that corruption. Shasharra used it the first time in Twilight falls and it starts leaking. Ok - why does it start leaking here? It was invested with Endowments investiture and was consuming nalthians. Why would there be a corruption there? It only really makes sense that the corruption would have started from the beginning due to the awakening process / whatever makes him consume investiture in the first place. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 (edited) 17 minutes ago, listerfeend said: I'm gonna get real real pedantic here and just point out, neither of those actually say that Divine Breath can't be used for Awakening. I suspect that your interpretation of these quotes is correct, what is meant is likely that Divine Breath cannot be used like that. However: in the annotations, "he couldn't use that Returned Breath" could literally just be because, to use it would mean his death. Similarly in the passage about the God King, this distinction between Divine and normal Breaths would be made because of the same thing. If Suse were to attempt to Awaken with that Divine Breath (assuming that it is actually possible, and honestly that would be just like Brando, he'd burry the lead like that) he would die, as a Returned cannot live without their Divine Breath + 1 Breath/week (or whatever the time span was) Well, I was pressed for time, so here are some of the other WoBs: Spoiler Quote drabgod When a Returned who has lots of extra Breath gives them away without suppressing his Divine Breath, does the Divine Breath stick to the regular Breath as they are transferred to the receiver? Will the receiver find himself suddenly possessing a Divine Breath? Or does it still vanish after healing the receiver? Brandon Sanderson Divine Breaths don't work quite like others. However, losing one is kind of a "Last resort." You'll give away all the others first, and then, if you push you can give it away as well. It never sticks around and makes the person you choose returned. drabgod Could you use it to heal Preservation's mind? (potentially with the Well) Brandon Sanderson Depends on what you mean by "Preservation's Mind." Do you mean Leras? During the events of Well/HoA he's WELL beyond the help of such a small bit of investiture, as available in a single Divine Breath. With the help of the Well itself? That's more realistic, but the real reason that he was suffering from such degradation was due to persistent attacks by Ruin. /r/books AMA 2015 (June 24, 2015) Quote Extesian Can you give away a Divine Breath to another human? If so would they have the same powers as a Returned or would they just 'store' it like an inanimate object that Breath is stored in when not Awakened? Does a human require a 'crack' in their spirit web to receive a divine Breath? Brandon Sanderson So, a Divine Breath-- you're kind of going along the wrong direction on that line of reasoning. Divine Breaths cannot be transferred. When they are used they immediately become kinetic Investiture and are activated. This manifests normally as healing the person, both body, mind, and soul, but you can't give it up, transfer it in the same way you can regular Breaths. Skype Q&A (Oct. 8, 2018) Divine Breath is a Splinter of Endownment - not actually a "breath" at all (that's just the current Hallendren Term for it). It does not work like Breath, but may have uses besides healing: Spoiler Questioner When you transfer divine Breath, is it possible to have it result in something other than healing? Brandon Sanderson Lots of things are possible. Let's just say that that is not something people know how to do, and they have tried to do something else. Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018) 14 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: How does this reconcile with what you said about Endowments involvment? Are we to believe Endowment is also helping Yesteel make more nightbloods, or is this a misspeak by brandon and he means swords like vivennas? Please note, that comes from the Warbreaker Annotations (Specifically Ch 47) - he references Nightblood, not because Yesteel's experiements will be the same, but because Nightblood was the only example of a Metallic Type 4 Biochromatic Entity known to fans in 2011. Edited January 26 by Treamayne SPAG 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
listerfeend Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 1 hour ago, alder24 said: I suspect that Awakening objects like Nightblood is a two step process - the first step involves bringing him into sentience and giving him 1000 Breaths by using some kind of Command similar to Awakening Lifeless, the second gives him the Command to "destroy evil." Or this different process might simply be not giving a piece of steel Commands about abstract ideas like evil and destruction. So, you are saying here that you think that Nightblood's creation was 2 Awakenings on the same object? Is that even indicated as possible? I don't recall anything that would lead me to that conclusion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 (edited) 12 minutes ago, listerfeend said: So, you are saying here that you think that Nightblood's creation was 2 Awakenings on the same object? Is that even indicated as possible? I don't recall anything that would lead me to that conclusion. @alder24 is not saying "two Awakenings" he's saying "Two Steps" - the same way we saw the Squirrel done in Warbreaker Ch 21: Spoiler Ch 21: Quote Vasher knelt, putting a hand on the creature. “Awaken to my Breath,” he Commanded, “serve my needs, live at my Command and my word. Fallen Rope.” Those last words, “fallen rope,” formed the security phrase. Vasher could have chosen anything, but he picked the first thing that came to mind. One Breath was leached from his body, going down into the small rodent’s corpse. The thing began to twitch. That was a Breath Vasher would never be able to recover, for creating a Lifeless was a permanent act. The squirrel lost all color, bleeding to grey, the Awakening feeding off the body’s own colors to help fuel the transformation. The squirrel had been grey in the first place, so the difference was tough to see. That’s why Vasher liked to use them. “Fallen Rope,” he said to the creature, its grey eyes looking up at him. The security phrase pronounced, Vasher could now imprint the creature with an order, much as he did when performing a standard Awakening. “Make noise. Run around. Bite people who are not me. Fallen Rope.” The second use of the words closed its impressionability, so it could no longer be Commanded. Annotations to Ch 21: Quote I wanted to show the creation of a Lifeless somewhere in this book, as I think the process is interesting. The drain of color happens in a slightly different way than in regular Awakening, though it’s similar. In this case, the creature draws color from its own body in order to come to life. The better your imagining of the Command when you make it (not the orders you give it, but the one when you give it the Breath), the more intelligent and capable of following orders the Lifeless is. Later in the book, for instance, people are surprised at how good this little squirrel is at doing what it is told. So, you give the breath and use a Command to Awaken - Then, separately, you use the security phrase to give the Awakened Entity a Command. (note how it is capilatized in Ch 21) Edited January 26 by Treamayne 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 1 minute ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Not super clear on the timeline here, Nightblood predates the father machine, yes? We have no idea. Probably. 1 minute ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: How does this reconcile with what you said about Endowments involvment? Are we to believe Endowment is also helping Yesteel make more nightbloods, or is this a misspeak by brandon and he means swords like vivennas? Keep in mind Warbreaker Annotations were made looong before OB. I simply think that Brandon meant type 4 swords that would be close to Nightblood in functionality, still far worse than Vivenna's blade, but not exactly like Nightblood. Closer to Vivenna's blade but more destructive? I think Brandon probably had it planned for Endowment to be involved in Nightblood's creation back then but didn't want to reveal any details about it before writing the sequel. 5 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Again these details just arent lining up. On their own, in a silo, I agree with everything that you've said. But one of these things has to give. Either Yesteel cannot create new nightbloods and he meant swords like vivennas (which admittedly would still be a huge game changer to nalthian war). Or Endowment wasnt involved (not likely). The former. 6 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I dont really subscribe to this idea of invoking another shards investiture like that. I dont remember seeing any sort of evidence of that and it seems unlikely to be the case. Ruin saying Passion with big P was important, Odium might have been influencing Kelsier in some subconscious way etc. Shards are omnipresent, they are all around Cosmere and you can Connect to them even if they are on the other side of Cosmere. Ruin's power is very open in Cosmere - anyone can use Hemalurgy anywhere, Ruin affects entire Cosmere as the whole, why is it impossible for someone with really aligned intents to tap into that power? Spoiler Questioner Was it relevant that Ruin mentioned Passion to Vin? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) Spoiler Questioner Is there anything I should look at as a hint for something we haven’t figured out yet? Brandon Sanderson Oh, that's a good question too. There are moments through the entire original trilogy that people haven't figured out yet. But they've picked out most of what they are, they just don't know why. Like they know something weird is happening, they don't know-- They haven't guessed why the weirdness is happening. The weirdness is figure-out-able, but it would be hard. But it's not outside of reason for you to figure out why these certain moments-- these moments people have not yet figured out. Questioner Because Odium had influence on Scadrial. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Not a ton, but yes. Questioner ...Kelsier had an irrational hatred for Nobles. Brandon Sanderson He did, he did indeed. Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015) Spoiler Questioner I'm trying to understand the relationship between Hemalurgy and the Shard Ruin. Most of the Invested Arts involve inputs of energy of the Shardic Investiture that corresponds to it. That doesn't seem to be the case for Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. So I'm wondering what the relationship is between the corresponding Shards and those two Metallic Arts. Brandon Sanderson There's a whole lot going on here, and I'm not sure how much I can get into right here. But one of the basic concepts I built for the cosmere, way back when, was that a lot of the different magics would be showing up in different systems. And there are certain underpinning fundamental rules. And this is why you'll see Lightweaving working the same way across three different magic systems; I think you've seen it in three different ones so far. Elsecalling's gonna work the same way. Hemalurgy is a thing that is, like, part of the nature of the cosmere, that the Shard simply knew and was able to tell people how to do So is it of that Shard? Well, yes, because you would have to be following that Shard's Intent in order to use it. But it could be discovered on other planets, as well. Questioner And independent of Ruin's presence, really, except for as Ruin affects the cosmere as a whole? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Exactly. You are correct. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) 15 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: If it worked like this, Nalthians would have invoked other shards investiture all the time. I dont see how youre making the connection that by investing nightblood with endowments investiture, it somehow starts corrupting only new investiture into ruins? How does that make sense? Any time someone commands an awakening in the heat of an emotion (like a battle, etc) are they invoking odiums investiture? No, because the intent isn't there. It's not just about emotions, or not even normal Awakening. You don't Command stuff "to hate." Nightblood is one of the kind because they've found a way to invoke another Shard's power and that was combined with Awakening type 4 entity - a sentient being with personality. Everything was just right for it to succeed. We know from Warbreaker Annotations that Nightblood corrupts investiture he consumes, corruption means another Shard is needed to mix and interact with that investiture, which means there is another Shard involved in Nightblood - Ruin is the most obvious choice because of his Command and the black smoke. 22 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: In addition to that, corrupted investiture shouldnt result in ruins investiture, if that makes any sense? what i mean by that is, since nightblood is corrupting the investiture he consumes, there must be some mechanism / other investiture ALREADY inside nightblood to create that corruption It doesn't have to be clean/pure Ruin's investiture he turns everything into - I didn't mean that. And you can change investiture into another investiture - you can turn Stormlight into Breaths, so why not everything into Ruin's investiture (like using the Navani's method and changing the tone of investiture)? However it works it turns everything into something more aligned with Ruin, it doesn't have to be 100% Ruin's investiture, it can be, but corruption is happening inside of Nightblood - and for that to work another Shard's investiture needs to be involved. The mechanism can be as simple as resonating with Ruin's pure tone, or drawing a bit from Ruin when corruption is happening etc. 29 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Shasharra used it the first time in Twilight falls and it starts leaking. Ok - why does it start leaking here? It was invested with Endowments investiture and was consuming nalthians. Why would there be a corruption there? It only really makes sense that the corruption would have started from the beginning due to the awakening process / whatever makes him consume investiture in the first place. Because Nightblood is corrupting what he consumes per WoB. That's why. He had nothing to corrupt before. Nightblood's intent is overwhelmingly about destruction, that might just tap into Ruin and corrupt investiture he consumes, he might overwrite tones of investiture he consumes into Ruin's tone, he might mix investiture with Ruin's investiture etc. Something like this is happening, corruption is happening inside of Nightblood. 38 minutes ago, listerfeend said: I'm gonna get real real pedantic here and just point out, neither of those actually say that Divine Breath can't be used for Awakening The first one literally said "he couldn’t use that Returned Breath for Awakening things," there is this quote as well, ch 3: Quote The saturated hues were far more resplendent than any dye or paint could produce. That was an effect of Lightsong’s innate BioChroma: he had enough Breath to fill thousands of people. He saw little value in it. He couldn’t use it to animate objects or corpses; he was a god, not an Awakener. He couldn’t give—or even loan—his deific Breath away. It's not just about ending dead, it's that even if they were to try to Awaken with a Divine Breath it can't Awaken. That's it. Divine Breaths turns into kinetic investiture which doesn't stick around. I see Treamayne has already provided more WoBs. 21 minutes ago, listerfeend said: So, you are saying here that you think that Nightblood's creation was 2 Awakenings on the same object? Is that even indicated as possible? I don't recall anything that would lead me to that conclusion. No. It was like Awakening Lifeless, which is a two step process but one Awakening. One step is to actually create Lifeless, then you give them commands to execute. I believe Nightblood was made in a similar way - one first Command was actually meant to give sentience and life to an object (because "destroy evil" doesn't really mean be alive, think and feel or anything like that), and then they put into an already Awakened Nightblood the specific Command to "destroy evil" - this could be made in one Command phrase, but there was likely more to the Command than just "destroy evil," something that would command an object to be sentient in the first place - just like the Command to make Lifeless, ch 21: Quote “Awaken to my Breath,” he Commanded, “serve my needs, live at my Command and my word. Fallen Rope.” [...] “Fallen Rope,” he said to the creature, its grey eyes looking up at him. The security phrase pronounced, Vasher could now imprint the creature with an order, much as he did when performing a standard Awakening. “Make noise. Run around. Bite people who are not me. Fallen Rope.” The second use of the words closed its impressionability, so it could no longer be Commanded. Because when you think about it there is nothing in "Destroy evil" that would tell Nightblood to be sentient, to think and to feel. Nothing. So there has to be something else to tell a sword to be alive. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
listerfeend Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 17 minutes ago, alder24 said: The first one literally said "he couldn’t use that Returned Breath for Awakening things," there is this quote as well, ch 3: Quote The saturated hues were far more resplendent than any dye or paint could produce. That was an effect of Lightsong’s innate BioChroma: he had enough Breath to fill thousands of people. He saw little value in it. He couldn’t use it to animate objects or corpses; he was a god, not an Awakener. He couldn’t give—or even loan—his deific Breath away. It's not just about ending dead, it's that even if they were to try to Awaken with a Divine Breath it can't Awaken. That's it. Divine Breaths turns into kinetic investiture which doesn't stick around. I see Treamayne has already provided more WoBs. I see your points here, and I still object slightly. Though not with much vigor. I suspect this is misleading on purpose. Similar to how throughout MB era 1 Spoiler We are told that no one can use a metalmind they didn't fill themselves in Era 1. It's quite clearly pointed out by Sazed when he was describing his coppermind methodologies and how they had to go through and memorize everything. Then Era 2 comes along and, lo and behold, there IS a way to use a metal mind you didn't create yourself, just no one knew about it because LR suppressed the information about multiple other metals and what they do. Lightsong couldn't because he didn't know he could, and they know that using their Divine Breath for anything is a self sacrifice. Brandon has indicated that Divine Breaths CAN be used for other things, and it's been tried, but no one has been successful. Investigation into this would be extremely dangerous, as you need a Returned and likely if you fail, you're gonna lose that Returned. I'm not taking a hard stance here, but there definitely are other things that can be done with a DB. 23 minutes ago, alder24 said: No. It was like Awakening Lifeless, which is a two step process but one Awakening. One step is to actually create Lifeless, then you give them commands to execute. I believe Nightblood was made in a similar way - one first Command was actually meant to give sentience and life to an object (because "destroy evil" doesn't really mean be alive, think and feel or anything like that), and then they put into an already Awakened Nightblood the specific Command to "destroy evil" - this could be made in one Command phrase, but there was likely more to the Command than just "destroy evil," something that would command an object to be sentient in the first place - just like the Command to make Lifeless, ch 21: I'm struggling to find the sauce, but I've seen quotes that say that Nightblood gained sentience because of the Command to destroy evil. Something along the lines of "to determine evil, Nightblood needed sentience, so the Breaths did that." But maybe I'm misinterpreting what I've read, I have no issues admitting that one lol 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 5 minutes ago, listerfeend said: I see your points here, and I still object slightly. Though not with much vigor. I suspect this is misleading on purpose. Similar to how throughout MB era 1 Hide contents We are told that no one can use a metalmind they didn't fill themselves in Era 1. It's quite clearly pointed out by Sazed when he was describing his coppermind methodologies and how they had to go through and memorize everything. Then Era 2 comes along and, lo and behold, there IS a way to use a metal mind you didn't create yourself, just no one knew about it because LR suppressed the information about multiple other metals and what they do. Lightsong couldn't because he didn't know he could, and they know that using their Divine Breath for anything is a self sacrifice. Brandon has indicated that Divine Breaths CAN be used for other things, and it's been tried, but no one has been successful. Investigation into this would be extremely dangerous, as you need a Returned and likely if you fail, you're gonna lose that Returned. I'm not taking a hard stance here, but there definitely are other things that can be done with a DB. Things that are kinetic in nature - yes, but not Awakening or transferring a Divine Breath onto someone else. You can steal it with a Hemalurgic spike and that's as close as you can get to giving it to someone. I see your point - it's possible that new things will come into light and something more like Awakening will be possible with a Divine Breath, but right now, as it is currently understood by us based on all information available, a Divine Breath simply can't be used to Awaken - you would need to do something with it, just like with metalminds to make them usable by other (unkeyed metalminds), so there would be additional steps missing. If you could stop a Divine Breath from becoming kinetic then you might be able to Awaken - but how to do that? 11 minutes ago, listerfeend said: I'm struggling to find the sauce, but I've seen quotes that say that Nightblood gained sentience because of the Command to destroy evil. Something along the lines of "to determine evil, Nightblood needed sentience, so the Breaths did that." But maybe I'm misinterpreting what I've read, I have no issues admitting that one lol This one? Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Chapter Thirty-Five Vivenna Awakes, Bound by Vasher This chapter—with what happens in the latter part of it—is the most dangerous in the book. Dangerous to me as an author, I mean. I love good plot twists, but I worry about leaving them without proper foreshadowing. I've never done something as drastic as I have in this book, having a group of sympathetic characters turn out to be working for the wrong side. I hope it succeeds, but I know that if it doesn't, readers will be very mad. Nothing is sloppier than a book with unearned changes in character motivation. But we're not there quite yet. Before that we have the first real interaction between Vivenna and Vasher. He gives her what he likes to think of as the Nightblood test. One nice thing about having a sword that "cannot tempt the hearts of those who are pure" is that when someone like Vivenna touches it, she gets sick. I didn't want Nightblood to come across as a "one ring" knockoff. He doesn't turn people's hearts or corrupt them. However, in order to be able to do his job and fulfill his Command, he needs the ability to determine who is good and who is evil. This, of course, isn't an easy thing to determine. In fact, I don't think it's a black or white issue for most people. When Nightblood was created, the Breaths infused in him did their best to interpret their Command. What they decided was evil was someone who would try to take the sword and use it for evil purposes, selling it, manipulating and extorting others, that sort of thing. Someone who wouldn't want the sword for those reasons was determined to be good. If they touch the weapon, they feel sick. If others touch the weapon, their desire to kill and destroy with it is enhanced greatly. Nightblood himself, unfortunately, doesn't quite understand what good and evil are. (This is mentioned later in the text.) However, he knows that his master can determine who is good and who is evil—using the sword's power to make people sick, or through other means. So, he pretty much just lets whoever is holding him decide what is evil. And if the one holding the sword determines—deep within their heart—that they are evil themselves, then they will end up killing themselves with the sword. Vivenna passes the test, which surprises Vasher. He thought that she'd be the type who would use Nightblood to kill and destroy. (He doesn't have a high opinion of her, obviously. Of course, that's partially because he's let his temper dictate what he thinks.) Warbreaker Annotations (Dec. 22, 2010) mixed with this: Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Anyway, a lot of important things happen here. Note that Nightblood doesn't remember being drawn. When he was created, the Breaths gave him sentience as planned. (That was a big part of the goal in making him—to prove the existence of Type Four BioChromatic entities.) However, once he is drawn, his Command takes force and he acts much more like a regular Awakened object—but one with very strange abilities and powers. During this time, his Breath is diverted to creating the powers, and his mind goes fuzzy. Warbreaker Annotations (July 25, 2011) Which doesn't at all contradict my theory. It's what is happening every time something is Awakened, including Lifeless - Breaths do their best to interpret their Command, what it means to "catch things" or "fetch keys" for example. Even in Lifeless the better the Awakener is at visualization the better the Lifeless is at following its Commands, which means Breaths are still interpreting Commands given to them, not just brain. It can be a two step process to Awaken a type 4 entity. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Vasher Fights the Guards, Then Creates a Lifeless Squirrel I wanted to show the creation of a Lifeless somewhere in this book, as I think the process is interesting. The draining of color happens in a slightly different way than in regular Awakening, though it's similar. In this case, the creature draws color from its own body in order to come to life. The better your imagining of the Command when you make it (not the orders you give it, but the one when you give it the Breath), the more intelligent and capable of following orders the Lifeless is. Later in the book, for instance, people are surprised at how good this little squirrel is at doing what it is told. Warbreaker Annotations (Oct. 19, 2010) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 Awakening requires 3 things: Investiture (Breaths) Visualization (Form) Command (Intent) People tend to forget about the second one. When Awakening something, you have to hold the Creation in your mind, create a semblance of it in the Cognitive Realm. You then have to provide it a Command, give it Intent. Shashara gave the Investiture of 1000 Breaths. She then Created a complex Visualization of a sentient steel sword (based on her conception of the sentient swords they saw on their visit to Roshar). Then gave that steel sword the Intent to "destroy evil". I've always considered the Visualization to be the most important part of creating a Nightblood. You have to know what a Living Shardblade is. You have to be able to hold the entire concept of a spren that can manifest Physically as a sword in your mind clearly. When Awakening, the created Concept has to contort itself to fit the Physical and Cognitive constraints of the object that's being Awakened. In the case of Nightblood, this is only possible because Spren on Roshar contort themselves to become swords. Flaws in the Concept that Shashara Created defined the contortions that the Concept had to make to fit within the steel sword. TL;DR: The sucking Investiture, the mind control, all of Nightblood's attributes and abilities are a contortion of Radiant Spren interactions through their bond. Shashara's Visualization was slightly off and was forced into a poor Physical Form. The Command is interpreted by this contorted version of a bonded Spren and defines its personality and motivations. But the Creation of Nightblood wasn't in the Command, it was in the Visualization. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 19 minutes ago, Leuthie said: (based on her conception of the sentient swords they saw on their visit to Roshar). But not just her conception of sapient sword - it is also influenced by the physical and cognitive identity of the oject itself. WoB: Spoiler Quote howtofall We know that the effects of various magic systems are changed by their interactions with metals (Scadrial’s three obviously, as well as fabrials on Roshar). So my question is: when a piece of metal is Awakened, does the type of metal change the nature of the Awakened object in any meaningful way? For example, If Nightblood had been made of iron or tin rather than steel... Brandon Sanderson It would most likely change what is happening with Nightblood to use different materials, and that includes different types of metal. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021) Quote Questioner If Vasher and Shashara had Awakened a non-weapon in exactly the same way as Nightblood (say a shield), would the object exhibit the same properties as Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson So, if you said "destroy evil" to a shield... no, it wouldn't be exactly the same. The Command is the most important part of all of this, but the shape, how the weapon perceives itself, how you perceive it, is all gonna play into this. They're playing with some real dangerous stuff when they made Nightblood. And it didn't go as intended. San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020) I think of it like a recipe. When baking, for example, cookies - Flour, Sugar, Moisture (oil, milk, cream, etc.) are all main required ingredients. But even the salt, baking powder, baking soda - despite being such a small percentage of the whole - can have a huge effect on how the final result turns out. So, your three-item list might be a good start from the perspective of the Awakener, but the result will be influenced by all of these smaller "ingredients." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 16 minutes ago, Treamayne said: But not just her conception of sapient sword - it is also influenced by the physical and cognitive identity of the oject itself. WoB: Hide contents I think of it like a recipe. When baking, for example, cookies - Flour, Sugar, Moisture (oil, milk, cream, etc.) are all main required ingredients. But even the salt, baking powder, baking soda - despite being such a small percentage of the whole - can have a huge effect on how the final result turns out. So, your three-item list might be a good start from the perspective of the Awakener, but the result will be influenced by all of these smaller "ingredients." I addressed the role of the Object/Container. The materials and form of the Object are going to affect the contortions that Visualization has to do to fit into it. The only reason this worked at all is because Spren turn themselves into swords, so there was a model to follow for the Investiture to contort itself. The abilities of Nightblood were defined by both the Concept that Shashara held of Spren and the Material Object she tried to stuff it into. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 43 minutes ago, Leuthie said: (based on her conception of the sentient swords they saw on their visit to Roshar) 43 minutes ago, Leuthie said: You have to know what a Living Shardblade is. 59 minutes ago, Leuthie said: Radiant Spren interactions through their bond 59 minutes ago, Leuthie said: a bonded Spren Shashara didn't see Living Shardblades, she didn't see spren turning into Radiant blades nor sentient swords, she visited Roshar long after Recreance and all Radiant spren were already dead or bondless. She did see Honorblades, which are self-aware. Spoiler Fluffy (paraphrased) When the Five Scholars traveled to Roshar, this happened post Recreance, so most Shardblades would have been dead, how did Nightblood gain sapience? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Shardblades weren’t the only Blades around that were active, there were Honorblades. Honorblades are self-aware, but do not manifest a spren in the Cognitive Realm. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 15, 2022) I would say that Intent and Visualization are very intertwined together. A Command isn't just Intent, it's a focus for an intent, but you have to still nail both of them correctly to make the Awakening work - you have to know what you mean by words, you have to visualize them - that's intent. But the difference between those three is thin, they all have to work together to make it work. That's why I don't think just visualizing and intending sentience when saying "destroy evil" is enough, but it is very possible to be enough. For me it just makes sense that an additional step is required to actually make sentience first and we’ve already seen this with Lifeless. Spoiler Chaos In Dawnshard we learned that Intent and Command are two different things, whereas in Warbreaker Vasher is clearly conflating these two into just saying it's the Command. What's the difference between Intent and Command? Brandon Sanderson Intent encompasses more understanding. Command is specifically narrow. A lot of times, these things are gonna be conflated, because they basically can be. Like, if Vasher creates an awakened thing and says "go get me those keys." The Intent is: "I need the keys to get outta here. I want to be free." The Command is: "Go fetch keys." Those are two different things, but they are working toward the same goal. It is important in cosmere terms that the Intent is understood, even if sometimes the words that can speak 'em are clunky and smaller in scale by nature than the Intent. Let's say the Intent of a Shard encompasses more than the word that the Shard is described by. It's a similar thing that the Intent of a Command is often vaster than the actual words spoken. And the magic can grasp the Intent, not just the Command, depending on the magic system and how good you are at it, and things like that. The words are there to focus Intent. How about that? Chaos Bringing the old word "focus" back into it. Let's talk about body focuses; what's going on there? (That's a joke.) Brandon Sanderson I'll throw you a kernel on that one in the fifth book if you watch for it. That old Rosharan philosophy will actually be relevant for a small thing happening in the fifth book. Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 3 minutes ago, Leuthie said: I addressed the role of the Object/Container. The materials and form of the Object are going to affect the contortions that Visualization has to do to fit into it. The only reason this worked at all is because Spren turn themselves into swords, so there was a model to follow for the Investiture to contort itself. The abilities of Nightblood were defined by both the Concept that Shashara held of Spren and the Material Object she tried to stuff it into. Right, I was pointing out that it seemed you wrote only from Sharshara's POV. As we learn in SA and ES: Spoiler ES Day 30: Quote “Ah. Well, let me see if I can explain,” she said, settling back. “I am rewriting your soul to match that of the emperor—just as I rewrote the history of that window to include new stained glass. In both cases, it works because of familiarity. The window frame knows what a stained-glass window should look like. It once had stained glass in it. Even though the new window is not the same as the one it once held, the seal works because the general concept of a stained-glass window has been fulfilled. ES Day 66: Quote “Your Forgery puts him in this room instead?” “Yes. That was before the water damage that seeped through the ceiling last year, so it’s plausible he’d have been placed here. The wall remembers Atsuko spending days too weak to leave, but having the strength for painting. A little each day, a growing pattern of vines, leaves, and berries. To pass the time.” “This shouldn’t be taking,” Gaotona said. “This Forgery is tenuous. You’ve changed too much.” “No,” Shai said. “It’s on the line … that line where the greatest beauty is found.” She put the seal away. She barely remembered the last six hours. She had been caught up in the frenzy of creation. “Still…” Gaotona said. “It will take,” Shai said. “If you were the wall, what would you rather be? Dreary and dull, or alive with paint?” “Walls can’t think!” “That doesn’t stop them from caring.” SA: Too many to quote, so I'll just refernence: Stick Wind's Pleasure etc. (Each tim they interact with the Cognitive Identity of a nonsentient object) I'm not saying you are wrong in any way, I'm just pointing out that there is more than you have accounted for so far. Nightblood wasn;t just influenced by being a sword, the shape of his sword likely mattered (a cutlass has very different "uses" than a broadsword, for example), it likely mattered if he was a newly forged sword or had already been used in combat or to kill something/somebody, etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
listerfeend Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 1 hour ago, Treamayne said: I'm not saying you are wrong in any way, I'm just pointing out that there is more than you have accounted for so far. Nightblood wasn;t just influenced by being a sword, the shape of his sword likely mattered (a cutlass has very different "uses" than a broadsword, for example), it likely mattered if he was a newly forged sword or had already been used in combat or to kill something/somebody, etc. Even the person who made the sword, the planet it came from, the time it was made, theoretically every Connection/piece of Identity from every axi in the object makes a difference. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyKaizen Posted January 29 Report Share Posted January 29 On 1/25/2024 at 8:56 PM, Treamayne said: Please read that WoB again (emphasis added) - Nightblood did not leak until after Vasher used it to kill Shashara. He wasn't even named Nightblood when created (because, no leaks) and was renamed after he consumed Shashara, her Divine Breath and all of the normal breaths she had remaining (likely, at least 8th Heightening or more in qty). If this is exactly the case, I have a tangential question... Why doesn't Nightblood gush investiture? What I mean is, let's say Shashara was 10th Heightening when Nightblood killed her, and Nightblood started off (leaking) 50,000+ breaths. Ok, that's a lot of investiture, but we've seen Nightblood suck in Investiture from Honor's open perpendicularity until they were glutted as well as sucked in all of Rayse's investiture and a tiny bit of Odiums (again, to his maximum ability)..and yet..they seem to leak the same amount (or not a proportional amount to 50,000 breaths vs whatever Nightblood's maximum is) of black smoked investiture, no matter how much they take in? Is there some sort of gating mechanism for the leaking of excess investiture? And if so, what (if anything) does that say about Nightblood's innate nature? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted January 29 Report Share Posted January 29 50 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said: And if so, what (if anything) does that say about Nightblood's innate nature? Are you certain you mean Innate Investiture? That is (and was) 1000 breaths, what was used to Awaken the sword. Do you perhaps mean consumed investiture? Here's a WoB: Spoiler Quote lucagreene18 If Szeth were to have drawn Nightblood immediately after he had consumed Rayse, would he still have drained Szeth's Stormlight? As it said he seemed like he had eaten as much as he could. Brandon Sanderson At that point, Nightblood had entered into essentially a food coma... Well, no, the food coma one came when he was drawing from the perpendicularity. I don't think he was in food coma mode at that point. I think that he could still have drawn more at that point, I'd have to go look at exactly what I wrote, if I'd put him into food coma mode or not. It is possible. This is one of the things I wanted to answer with the book. A lot of people have been theorizing, could Nightblood eat an entire Shard? And indeed, Nightblood could not eat an entire Shard. That is not within his capability. In fact, one of the reasons that he leaks Investiture is: he's too stuffed full of it. There is more Investiture in the sword Nightblood than it can actually hold, it's supersaturated. And it leaks Investiture (that it's done some weird things to). But it is constantly hungry for more and constantly leaks it, but it definitely can get full for a time, and it could not eat an entire Shard. I did see questions about that from people floating around, and it's something I'd been meaning to get to eventually. Nightblood is definitely relevant to things that are happening in the Cosmere, but it is not as simple as grabbing the sword, sticking it into a Shard, and defeating the Shard, unfortunately. Though, as you see in this book, there are reasons for a Shard to still be afraid of Nightblood. It didn't destroy Odium, but Rayse still really had a bad time. YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020) Quote uchoo786 So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm? Brandon Sanderson The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak. General Reddit 2015 (Dec. 14, 2015) So, part of what he consumes just re-enters the "investiture cycle" in the spiritual realm (likely while sheathed, since it can no-longer leak and has to go somewhere); and, while unsheathed, he constantly "eats" and constantly "leaks" the excess. Spoiler Mason Wheeler Nightblood is the most ridiculously over-invested thing in the Cosmere, second only to the Shards? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Mason Wheeler Was this true from the moment of his creation, or did it grow in power over time. Brandon Sanderson Grew in power over time. Kind of answers a question that people have been wondering. But, yes. Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018) So, Awakened with 1000 Breaths did not his his "threshold" - but after consuming Shashara he did hit that threshold and began leaking excess. At least that is how I interpret the information we have avaliable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 29 Report Share Posted January 29 1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said: If this is exactly the case, I have a tangential question... Why doesn't Nightblood gush investiture? What I mean is, let's say Shashara was 10th Heightening when Nightblood killed her, and Nightblood started off (leaking) 50,000+ breaths. Ok, that's a lot of investiture, but we've seen Nightblood suck in Investiture from Honor's open perpendicularity until they were glutted as well as sucked in all of Rayse's investiture and a tiny bit of Odiums (again, to his maximum ability)..and yet..they seem to leak the same amount (or not a proportional amount to 50,000 breaths vs whatever Nightblood's maximum is) of black smoked investiture, no matter how much they take in? Is there some sort of gating mechanism for the leaking of excess investiture? And if so, what (if anything) does that say about Nightblood's innate nature? We don't know how much Breaths Shashara had when she was killed, she had at least 20000 Breaths when creating Nightblood, but considering she was killed after the Battle of the Twilight Falls, she might have spent most of her Breaths during the fight to feed Nightblood, to Awaken or to create an army of Lifeless before the battle. She probably didn't have that much Breaths when killed. We don't have any numbers on how much investiture Nightblood can hold. But why does Nightblood leak investiture? Well, why do humans leak investiture, like Stormlight, or even Breaths that deteriorate with age? Humans simply aren't a perfect vessel for investiture. A steel sword likely isn't a perfect vessel as well, thus he leaks investiture - after all hemalurgic spikes leak investiture as well. The speed of leakage is probably limited by the surface area of the blade. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 30 Author Report Share Posted January 30 (edited) 22 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said: Is there some sort of gating mechanism for the leaking of excess investiture? And if so, what (if anything) does that say about Nightblood's innate nature? This is more what I was getting at. All of the details of this sword do not line up. 21 hours ago, Treamayne said: So, part of what he consumes just re-enters the "investiture cycle" in the spiritual realm (likely while sheathed, since it can no-longer leak and has to go somewhere); and, while unsheathed, he constantly "eats" and constantly "leaks" the excess. All that WOB confirms is that the investiture is not lost. It does not say that the investiture in Nightblood is recycled. Stuff that leaks off would be recycled, but we have nothing telling us that the investiture in the sword goes back to the spiritual realm. 21 hours ago, Treamayne said: Mason Wheeler Nightblood is the most ridiculously over-invested thing in the Cosmere, second only to the Shards? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Mason Wheeler Was this true from the moment of his creation, or did it grow in power over time. Brandon Sanderson Grew in power over time. Kind of answers a question that people have been wondering. But, yes. This is EXTREMELY important. 21 hours ago, alder24 said: A steel sword likely isn't a perfect vessel as well, thus he leaks investiture - after all hemalurgic spikes leak investiture as well. The speed of leakage is probably limited by the surface area of the blade. This cant all be the case. The sword grew in power over time and is second only to shards. Lets consider that for a moment. There must be something special to Nightblood if he, as a steel sword, can hold more investiture than ANYTHING else besides the source of that investiture itself. Are you trying to say any steel sword can hold that much? The sword has more investiture than: Tress spoilers: Spoiler Xisis, who has at least 50,000 breaths MB2 spoilers: Spoiler bands of mourning Questioner Are the Bands of Mourning...would they be like similarly invested as Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson Not quite to the extent of Nightblood. In fact not remotely close to the extent of Nightblood. Warbreaker: Spoiler Susebron, who has at least 50,000 breaths It kind of doesnt matter how many breaths shasharra had when she was killed. These details dont line up. Yes, Nightblood leaks investiture because he is supersaturated. However, that doesnt explain the supersaturation. His power has only grown over time. And we know that there were periods (perhaps decades) where Nightblood didnt consume anything and yet he is still one of the most invested things that exists. The leaking starting with Shasharra would not have been a supersaturation, as indeed, we know that Nightblood will continue to get stronger and stronger. The leaking starting at that event must have broken / changed the sword to consume investiture like it does. This would explain why the sheath timeline is messy, and also how shasharra would have been able to wield the sword for so long. My interpretation of nightblood has always been that he is a black hole and the smoke he leaks is similar to hawking radiation. Nightblood contains so much investiture that bits and pieces break off and leak. However, hawking radiation is so minimal with black holes, that they will functionally never be completely radiated. What I mean is that Nightblood contains so much investiture that it is impossible for him to leak it all out. Just like when we interact with shards. There is investiture leaking and spilling everywhere constantly. But that doesnt change the investiture of the shard whatsoever. Now, Nightblood is no shard but if we think about the amount of investiture that he has consumed it doesnt make sense that the leaking would have any effect on his investiture level. Even just the investiture from closing honors perpendicularity once, the smoke excretion does not increase, and it should based on your theory. OB spoilers: Spoiler That doesnt take into account the souls and bodies of the hundreds that szeth alone killed. Your interpretation seems to believe that Nightbloods level of investiture is in flux (higher, lower) rather than only going up. And that seems impossible given that he is the most invested thing other than shards. It would also indicate that you could 'starve' Nightblood by leaving him alone for long enough. Which really does not seem like the case. Edited January 30 by CtrlAltDepressed 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
listerfeend Posted January 30 Report Share Posted January 30 Ok, so I just had a thought that I wanted to throw out. We are somewhat confused on a few points. We know that Nightblood was not created with the aluminum sheath. Though it has been implied that they COULD have had the sheathe waiting for him, it doesn't really make much sense why they would have that specific a tool ready and waiting when they didn't expect the outcome they got with Nightblood. The other thing we are confused on is: how can he be supersaturated to the point he is leaking investiture, but still consume more. You can't put more water into an already overflowing bucket. that doesn't work. Quote Brandon Sanderson So-- The sheath was not relevant to that. The sheath was not part of the original Awakening, and it's not part of the intent or anything like that. I'm not saying it wasn't there ready for it, but it is not part of the sword. In the same way. Cadmium So, at some point we'll figure out why it learned to stop once its in the sheath? Brandon Sanderson Yes, kind of. It's a function of the sheath. It's also confusing how Shashara would have been able to wield Nightblood, carry him around, or do anything without him just immediately starting to eat all of her own investiture. It's hard to tell at exactly what rate Nightblood consumes Investiture, as we don't really know the exchange rate between Stormlight and Breath, and I don't think we've ever gotten a solid figure, but I think it is safe to say that it consumes FAST. Just gobbles it up. And Nightblood does that automatically. Make physical contact with an unsheathed Nightblood, lose Investiture quickly. So, even moving Nightblood around, without the sheathe, would be enough to drain Shashara very quickly. There are two ways that I can see that Nightblood would not have eaten all of Shashara's Breaths, including her Divine one. Option A: We know that Vasher is less affected by Nightblood for some as of yet unexplained reason. This could be due to Vasher's long history with the sword, it could be some kind of "bond" (for lack of a better term) between Nightblood and its creators. So maybe Shashara was less affected by Nightblood in general, though this would still, I suspect, cause tons of problems for them. Option B: Perhaps, as Nightblood has consumed more and more Investiture, his rate of consumption has increased over time. Option A has problems for me. Regardless of whether or not there is some kind of bond or reduced rate or something for Shashara and Vasher, they still would have needed to do so much testing and figuring out, I think, to discover that an aluminum sheathe would block his consumption. I know they were world hoppers, but we have quotes from Brando that say that they'd only been to Roshar before Nightblood's creation. Roshar, as far as we can tell, has never had much in the way of aluminum, and it doesn't seem to be well known on Nalthis either, so they'd have had to do quite a bit of testing and trial and error to find the right material. I'm more than willing to accept that they were the best scholars of their time, but they were also really the first scholars of the cosmere at wide since the shattering. So, I sort of feel like expecting them to know about aluminum as well as Shardblades, as well as Awakening metal for the first time etc... That all seems like too much for me. I'd accept it if Brandon wrote it that way, as I'm sure he'd be able to explain how they would have known about aluminum in a satisfying way, but, until then, this is a stretch. Now, Option B has some interesting ramifications for me, and is really the reason I wanted to write this out. This could also sort of help explain both how they would have been able to wield Nightblood without losing all of their own Investiture, especially taking into account that Vasher is less affected by Nightblood's abilities, as well as how he can be so full that he's constantly leaking Investiture, and yet still able to take more in. My thoughts on this are essentially: What if Nightblood isn't a blackhole, but is instead a stomach? From here on this is my own theorycrafting, and I don't know if it is supported or rebutted by quotes or anything like that. My theory is that when he was created, his storage capacity/rate for Investiture was very low. Probably something very reasonable that both Shashara and Vasher would have found acceptable. Some low rate like 1 Breath an hour or something like that. As such, his "hunger" would have been less as well. It would have taken basically a very low amount of Investiture to put him in a satiated state. We know that Vasher didn't kill Sashara until after the Battle of Twilight Falls, where presumably Shashara used Nightblood rather extensively. Perhaps even stuffing Nightblood super full, like a Thanksgiving dinner. Or a typical American meal, if you're European... Every time Nightblood is full, their "stomach" (their maximum capacity for Investiture) is expanded, like a competitive eater. At the same time, Nightblood's voraciousness increases at a commensurate rate. Sometime after the Battle, Vasher ends up killing Shashara with Nightblood, maybe even while it is still satiated, consuming her remaining Breaths (at this time probably less than the 20k she had when creating Nightblood, but if Nightblood's consumption rate was lower at the time, and there was this "bond", she could still have had several thousand, not to mention her Divine Breath) FORCING that stomach to expand, even rupturing that "stomach" slightly, thus begins the leaking of the black smoke. And every time since then, the stomach expands a bit... Still leaking from those initial tears, maybe even expanding those slightly, but the storage capacity and the rate of consumption just keeps growing, till we see Nightblood now, sucking in all forms of Investiture from all around it like Kirby. Always full but never satisfied, and every time Nightblood eats, it's just pushing out on that "stomach lining". Another interesting note I just found, and then I'll close this out, as this is getting very long winded... Brandon has implied that Nightblood CAN absorb an infinite amount of Investiture. It's not the amount of Investiture, but the rate at which he consumes that is the limiting factor. Which I feel supports my thoughts above. Quote Brandon Sanderson Nightblood didn't take up a Shard, Nightblood was not there... Oh, [they're] probably just asking why Nightblood did not absorb the entire Shard of Odium. Nightblood cannot hold that much Investiture. At least not at that rate, right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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