alder24 Posted January 30, 2024 Posted January 30, 2024 59 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: All that WOB confirms is that the investiture is not lost. It does not say that the investiture in Nightblood is recycled. Stuff that leaks off would be recycled, but we have nothing telling us that the investiture in the sword goes back to the spiritual realm. Agreed, only investiture that leaks is recycled. 1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: 22 hours ago, Treamayne said: Mason Wheeler Nightblood is the most ridiculously over-invested thing in the Cosmere, second only to the Shards? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Mason Wheeler Was this true from the moment of his creation, or did it grow in power over time. Brandon Sanderson Grew in power over time. Kind of answers a question that people have been wondering. But, yes. This is EXTREMELY important. He grew over time - past tense. He isn't growing, he grew. It is important. 59 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: This cant all be the case. The sword grew in power over time and is second only to shards. Lets consider that for a moment. There must be something special to Nightblood if he, as a steel sword, can hold more investiture than ANYTHING else besides the source of that investiture itself. Are you trying to say any steel sword can hold that much? The sword has more investiture than: No - WoB said "There is more Investiture in the sword Nightblood than it can actually hold, it's supersaturated." Steel can't hold that much. Nightblood is so invested now that he can be considered a god metal now, and because Vivenne's blade also looks like a god metal without acting like Nightblood, I imply this happened to him during the moment of his creation and isn't simply the effect of feeding on investiture (what I mean he really turned black when he was created - he turned into a pseudo god metal). Nightblood isn't a normal steel sword anymore, he is a kind of Schrodinger's cat - both being made out of steel and god metal at the same time. He bends and breaks the rules. He can be stuffed far more than a normal steel object of comparable dimensions because of that and because of how he works by sucking in all of investiture he touches (this is special, because of how badly his Awakening went, he consumes investiture and stuffs it all inside of him to his limits) . Spoiler Kael_the_Adventurer Did Nightblood's Awakening transform it into a God Metal? Brandon Sanderson *hesitant* Yes, you could say that. Adam Horne Was that a permanent change, or was that just while... Brandon Sanderson You can argue that Nightblood is a God Metal. Is he? You could argue otherwise as well. How about that? YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) Spoiler Chaos Is atium Invested? Brandon Sanderson Is atium Invested? Atium is Investiture distilled into the Physical Realm, right? So is electricity electric? Or is it-- Chaos Well I think the question Sharders had was if it's Invested, how can people Push and Pull on it. That was the struggle. Brandon Sanderson Atium breaks a lot of rules, in the same way that you will see other things break rules. Atium plays weirdly. When you get distilled Investiture, you're starting like-- My kind of rule for myself is it's kind of like when you start going on the quantum level, the rules just start playing weirdly. Because it's like, what Realm does atium exist in-- is another thing. Because-- Pure Investiture like that is like a mini black hole, right? It's like existing in three Realms at once. Kind of, and things like that... There's lots of weirdness. The writerly answer is there is lots of weirdness because when I built atium, I didn't have the rest of the cosmere built, right? And so it breaks a lot of rules that I later set up that everything else has to follow, right? So the writerly answer is we just have to accept that atium and lerasium and some of these other distilled Investiture things are going to play very weirdly with the magic systems. But that's okay. Nightblood will too, and some of these things that were built even after the cosmere was coming together. Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017) And Nightblood is less invested than the Stormfather: Spoiler Questioner You've previously said that Nightblood is the most powerful non-Shardic being in the Cosmere. Is he more powerful than the Unmade or Stormfather in terms of raw Investiture? Brandon Sanderson Raw Investiture? Here's the thing, when you say powerful, it can mean lots of different things. More raw Investiture than the Stormfather... probably not. Than the Unmade, probably. I would have to look, I don't have the numbers on this. But the Stormfather is very restricted in what he can do. Orem Signing (March 16, 2019) He also isn't THE most invested individual so there are other entities that are still more invested than him - probably Dawnshards, Avatars etc: Spoiler Questioner Nightblood has more Investiture than any other being, right? Brandon Sanderson Not every other being, but definitely one of the most highly Invested individuals that we have seen. Questioner So Nightblood, he was used to wound Odium. Is Odium now weaker than he was before? Brandon Sanderson Not in a relevant way. Technically, yes. Not in a relevant way. The amount taken, compared to how much there is, is pretty small. And a whole bunch of what happened there was focused on the Vessel, not on Odium itself. Questioner Could Nightblood consume Odium? Brandon Sanderson Nightblood would get full before consuming even the smallest fraction amount of Odium. As you saw, Nightblood kind of got full in that instance. Actually, it was with the perpendicularity, it would be similar to that. So for those who are wondering, no, you can't stab Nightblood into the planet and absorb the planet. Nightblood is really dangerous, as we've seen, but we're not talking "absorb planets" dangerous. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) 59 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: And we know that there were periods (perhaps decades) where Nightblood didnt consume anything and yet he is still one of the most invested things that exists. He was sheathed in those periods, he didn't leak much during those times. A slight leakage was still there because Nightblood isn't 100% covered by aluminum, it likely leaks through his handle but in a much more subtle and slower way. 59 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: But that doesnt change the investiture of the shard whatsoever. Tell that to Preservation and Ruin. 59 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Now, Nightblood is no shard but if we think about the amount of investiture that he has consumed it doesnt make sense that the leaking would have any effect on his investiture level. It has to because Nightblood can get full and later still can be drawn and fed on investiture. He has to drop in investiture levels to "make space" for new food. So yes, leakage has an effect on him but I don't suggest that he leaks a considerable amount of his investiture. He stays near the very top of what he can hold. If you were to leave him unsheathed for months or years then maybe there will be a noticeable difference. 59 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Your interpretation seems to believe that Nightbloods level of investiture is in flux (higher, lower) rather than only going up. And that seems impossible given that he is the most invested thing other than shards. Yes but that's as of right now. He wasn't invested to such levels earlier, after his creation, he grew as he was used. But now the differences between moments when he is invested the most or the lowest are minimal compared to the amount of investiture he is holding. He has to lose some investiture because he can get full, he falls into a coma and in that moment he doesn't consume investiture anymore. Because he reaches maximum he has to drop in investiture levels to allow new investiture to be consumed by him. He can't be invested anymore, he can't go up anymore, he's reached the maximum and now he is oscillating near it constantly. What he loses through leakage is quickly replenished when he is drawn and in certain moments he reaches the very maximum he can hold (like when he killed Rayse). When this happens he can be even "safely" used for a few short seconds. I think the more investiture Nightblood holds the more he leaks because this investiture is more pressurized thus when a valve is opened (unsheathed) the pressure pushes investiture out faster compared to when he was far less invested. But right now Nightblood is almost at the very top of what he can hold so he basically leaks at the same speed now - what he loses is quickly regained when he is used, so on average he doesn't get less invested, but he doesn't go more invested as well - he has reached an equilibrium. Spoiler Questioner Is there a limit to the amount of Investiture that Nightblood can hold. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Yep, there is. Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023) Spoiler lucagreene18 If Szeth were to have drawn Nightblood immediately after he had consumed Rayse, would he still have drained Szeth's Stormlight? As it said he seemed like he had eaten as much as he could. Brandon Sanderson At that point, Nightblood had entered into essentially a food coma... Well, no, the food coma one came when he was drawing from the perpendicularity. I don't think he was in food coma mode at that point. I think that he could still have drawn more at that point, I'd have to go look at exactly what I wrote, if I'd put him into food coma mode or not. It is possible. This is one of the things I wanted to answer with the book. A lot of people have been theorizing, could Nightblood eat an entire Shard? And indeed, Nightblood could not eat an entire Shard. That is not within his capability. In fact, one of the reasons that he leaks Investiture is: he's too stuffed full of it. There is more Investiture in the sword Nightblood than it can actually hold, it's supersaturated. And it leaks Investiture (that it's done some weird things to). But it is constantly hungry for more and constantly leaks it, but it definitely can get full for a time, and it could not eat an entire Shard. I did see questions about that from people floating around, and it's something I'd been meaning to get to eventually. Nightblood is definitely relevant to things that are happening in the Cosmere, but it is not as simple as grabbing the sword, sticking it into a Shard, and defeating the Shard, unfortunately. Though, as you see in this book, there are reasons for a Shard to still be afraid of Nightblood. It didn't destroy Odium, but Rayse still really had a bad time. YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020) Spoiler Questioner Is Nightblood more or less susceptible to damage and/or death when he's satiated on Investiture? Brandon Sanderson Satiated, he's much less dangerous. More susceptible, I would say by technicality, yes. When he's full, it's gonna be harder for him to pull in things, so all sorts of things could happen. So yes. But it's not that he's weaker, it's not like the metal is easier to break or bend, it's more that he's not as likely to suck your soul. Questioner So he behaves more like a regular sword. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, a little bit more. Still, for human levels of Investiture, still really dangerous to touch him. He's satiated, but if he's at 100%, and the amount of you he could eat represents 0.001%, the moment a little of that wears off, you're gone. So still would not be picking him up in most cases, just out of that, "Oh! He got a little hungry again!" But in terms of larger, grand scale Shard stuff, much safer to handle. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) Spoiler Max Garber What would happen if you threw Nightblood into the Dor? Could it consume Investiture fast enough to enable you to travel through the Dor? Brandon Sanderson Oh, I see what you’re trying to do, make a pocket where you can go through. Here’s the thing: Nightblood would get full pretty quick in the Dor, like you saw with Nightblood hitting a perpendicularity in Rhythm of War. So I’m not 100% convinced this could get you through the Dor. But it’s a workable theory that you could try, and you might be able to tweak it to the point that you could make it work. You’re gonna have to deal with the fact that Nightblood fills up, when there’s that much Investiture, pretty quickly. YouTube Spoiler Stream 6 (Dec. 19, 2023) 2 minutes ago, listerfeend said: We know that Nightblood was not created with the aluminum sheath. Though it has been implied that they COULD have had the sheathe waiting for him, it doesn't really make much sense why they would have that specific a tool ready and waiting when they didn't expect the outcome they got with Nightblood. What if the sheath wasn't meant to stop him from leaking but simply stop him from cutting and killing everything he touches? They knew how Shardblades work, they knew about Shardblades sheaths, they knew Shardblades can be dissmissed, Nightblood can't - you have to have a way to carry it around safely otherwise you will cut yourself to death or let it drain you entirely when you hold it. That's the simplest explanation. Plus Shashara might have known that when Nightblood is out in the open his Command will take over, so sheathing him in aluminum will allow his personality to shine. 5 minutes ago, listerfeend said: The other thing we are confused on is: how can he be supersaturated to the point he is leaking investiture, but still consume more. You can't put more water into an already overflowing bucket. that doesn't work. As per WoBs above there is a limit of how much he can really hold. You can pressurize the water in the bucket and it will need less space - I think that's what Nightblood is doing, that's why he is supersaturated - but there are still limits to that. 9 minutes ago, listerfeend said: Option A: We know that Vasher is less affected by Nightblood for some as of yet unexplained reason. Very known reasons - he used it and Nightblood fed on him. Everyone who used it and survived are immune to his effects: Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Another note here is that Nightblood can sense where Vasher is. This is because Nightblood has ingested and fed off Vasher's Breaths in the past. When he does that, it connects him to someone. It's also, by the way, one of the secrets as to why Vasher doesn't get sick when holding Nightblood, even though he's a good person. It's not simply familiarity (though that is part of it). Nightblood has a built-in test. If he feeds off you and you survive, then you become somewhat immune to his powers. Warbreaker Annotations (June 22, 2011) But this doesn't seem to reduce the amount of investiture he consumes. 11 minutes ago, listerfeend said: Option B: Perhaps, as Nightblood has consumed more and more Investiture, his rate of consumption has increased over time. The rate of consumption when he is drawn out grows exponentially. The longer he's out, the more he eats. ch 57: Quote The longer Vasher held the sword, the faster it drained his Breath. 21 minutes ago, listerfeend said: I'm more than willing to accept that they were the best scholars of their time, but they were also really the first scholars of the cosmere at wide since the shattering Khriss predates them - White Sand is the earliest in the Cosmere timeline and she already is doing scholarly work there. And she founded only one of many universities in Silverlight. Not to mention Dragons who also have scholarly tendencies and they have found Silverlight. 23 minutes ago, listerfeend said: So, I sort of feel like expecting them to know about aluminum as well as Shardblades, as well as Awakening metal for the first time etc... That all seems like too much for me. I'd accept it if Brandon wrote it that way, as I'm sure he'd be able to explain how they would have known about aluminum in a satisfying way, but, until then, this is a stretch. Aluminum was present on Roshar, was known on Roshar, especially in ancient times. We don't know if it is unknown on Nalthis, just because it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean it isn't there, it can be just rare. It would be probably even more known in Shadesmar - I see no problems here. 28 minutes ago, listerfeend said: My theory is that when he was created, his storage capacity/rate for Investiture was very low. Probably something very reasonable that both Shashara and Vasher would have found acceptable. Some low rate like 1 Breath an hour or something like that. As such, his "hunger" would have been less as well. It would have taken basically a very low amount of Investiture to put him in a satiated state. We know that Vasher didn't kill Sashara until after the Battle of Twilight Falls, where presumably Shashara used Nightblood rather extensively. Perhaps even stuffing Nightblood super full, like a Thanksgiving dinner. Or a typical American meal, if you're European... Every time Nightblood is full, their "stomach" (their maximum capacity for Investiture) is expanded, like a competitive eater. At the same time, Nightblood's voraciousness increases at a commensurate rate. Sometime after the Battle, Vasher ends up killing Shashara with Nightblood, maybe even while it is still satiated, consuming her remaining Breaths (at this time probably less than the 20k she had when creating Nightblood, but if Nightblood's consumption rate was lower at the time, and there was this "bond", she could still have had several thousand, not to mention her Divine Breath) FORCING that stomach to expand, even rupturing that "stomach" slightly, thus begins the leaking of the black smoke. And every time since then, the stomach expands a bit... Still leaking from those initial tears, maybe even expanding those slightly, but the storage capacity and the rate of consumption just keeps growing, till we see Nightblood now, sucking in all forms of Investiture from all around it like Kirby. Always full but never satisfied, and every time Nightblood eats, it's just pushing out on that "stomach lining". No. One of the WoBs I've posted here states that Nightblood has an upper limit, he can get full and fall into a coma in which he doesn't consume anymore. He doesn't grow in his capabilities of storing more investiture because investiture is another state of matter, just like energy - if that were to happen he would literally either grow in size or turn into a real black hole. None of this is happening. 30 minutes ago, listerfeend said: Another interesting note I just found, and then I'll close this out, as this is getting very long winded... Brandon has implied that Nightblood CAN absorb an infinite amount of Investiture. It's not the amount of Investiture, but the rate at which he consumes that is the limiting factor. Which I feel supports my thoughts above. Quote Brandon Sanderson Nightblood didn't take up a Shard, Nightblood was not there... Oh, [they're] probably just asking why Nightblood did not absorb the entire Shard of Odium. Nightblood cannot hold that much Investiture. At least not at that rate, right? The WoB doesn't imply that at all. Theoretically as long as you're consumption rate is smaller or equal to his leakage rate you can make him feed on infinite amount of investiture - but this isn't possible anyway because Nightblood consumption rate grows faster the more he is used. He can't consume infinite amount of investiture, he will get full eventually and then stop eating.
Treamayne Posted January 30, 2024 Posted January 30, 2024 13 minutes ago, alder24 said: Agreed, only investiture that leaks is recycled. 13 minutes ago, alder24 said: because of how he works by sucking in all of investiture he touches I'll read and reply more thoroughly later, when I have some time. I just want to point out that he does not (or not always) "suck in and consume" all investiture he touches. He sucks in and consumes a fraction (how large a fraction is debatable), and the rest is recycled as corrupted investiture smoke (this is what I was trying to reference) Examples: Spoiler Warbreaker Ch 56: Quote Each creature he struck with the blade immediately flashed and became smoke. A single scratch and the bodies dissolved like paper being consumed by an invisible fire, leaving behind only a large stain of blackness in the air. Vasher spun among them, striking with wrath, killing Lifeless after Lifeless. Black smoke churned around him, and his arm twisted with pain as veinlike tendrils climbed up the hilt and around his forearm—like black blood vessels that latched on to his skin, feeding off his Breath. In a matter of minutes, the Breath Vivenna had given him had been reduced by half. Yet in those moments, he destroyed all fifty Lifeless. The soldiers outside pulled to a halt, watching the display. Vasher stood amidst a churning mass of deep ebony smoke. It slowly rose into the air, the only remnants of the fifty creatures he had destroyed. OB Ch 118: Quote The sword screamed at him. DESTROY! Anyone he so much as nicked popped into black smoke. Szeth laid waste to the red-eyed soldiers, who kept coming, showing no fear. Screaming, as if they thirsted for death. It was a drink that Szeth was all too good at serving. So, my point is - example: Even if Nightblood stabbed Susebron (50k+ Breaths and a Divine Breath) Nighblood would not have consumed nearly all of that - most would be lost as the cloud of black smoke that is left in lieu of a corpse - and only some unknown fraction of that would actually be consumed by Nightblood. 1
listerfeend Posted January 30, 2024 Posted January 30, 2024 46 minutes ago, alder24 said: No. One of the WoBs I've posted here states that Nightblood has an upper limit, he can get full and fall into a coma in which he doesn't consume anymore. He doesn't grow in his capabilities of storing more investiture because investiture is another state of matter, just like energy - if that were to happen he would literally either grow in size or turn into a real black hole. None of this is happening. 50 minutes ago, alder24 said: The WoB doesn't imply that at all. Theoretically as long as you're consumption rate is smaller or equal to his leakage rate you can make him feed on infinite amount of investiture - but this isn't possible anyway because Nightblood consumption rate grows faster the more he is used. He can't consume infinite amount of investiture, he will get full eventually and then stop eating. That WoB seems to be directly contradicted by the one I posted. He implies there that it is the rate of consumption that is the issue, not the upper limit. So, this is confusing to me. You contradict that by saying that it's about the rate vs the leakage, but he literally just said there that Nightblood can't hold that much investiture, at that rate. Which directly implies that he can hold that much. Maybe this is Brandon misspeaking, me being pedantic (that's a thing I'm told I am, often), or just going off the cuff, but, that's basically all of the WoB's so... There are definitely possible reasons why he wouldn't grow in size or become an actual black hole, I don't have any off the top of my head, but seeing how Bendalloy burning automatically shoots energy at the boundaries of the bubble into the SR to deal with red/blue shift, I suspect that there are reasons why Nightblood wouldn't operate that way. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Aluminum was present on Roshar, was known on Roshar, especially in ancient times. We don't know if it is unknown on Nalthis, just because it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean it isn't there, it can be just rare. It would be probably even more known in Shadesmar - I see no problems here. How do we know this? I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'm not finding anything that would indicate that Roshar would have had aluminum Post Recreance, when Vasher and Shashara would have visited. I thought maybe you would be referencing the guards on the Shardblades, but that is definitively NOT aluminum, per Brandon/Peter One of many WoBs on that Quote Questioner What was the metal that Hoid gave Vivenna and her crew to use the fabrial? Brandon Sanderson You're asking, what metal it was that let them use the fabrial without the screamers detecting them? So, should be aluminum. I don't think there's anything sneaky about that. The only thing that I've had to change is, I wanted the sheathes that they use with Shardblades to be aluminum, and Peter tells me I just can't do that. It's not in continuity. So we have to have some sort of aluminum... alloy, or something like that. I'm not sure exactly what I wrote that broke the continuity on that, but he is certain that those can't be aluminum. So, those aren't aluminum, but it was aluminum around that. And Hoid's bag has an aluminum lining, too. We know that Shallan has an aluminum pendant, and we know that aluminum on Roshar has to be Soulcast. I can't find anything that would suggest that they knew of or had access to aluminum in the past. And Khriss may predate the Five Scholars, but Quote FirstSelector I read that you had said if you had written Khriss' essay on Nalthis, it would have been more or less that she was talking about the magic, and then mention that there were scholars on this planet that were spitting distance from, like… Brandon Sanderson Yeah, yeah. FirstSelector So, Vasher, and maybe some of the other ones have been off world-- Brandon Sanderson Shashara has been, yeah. FirstSelector ...Are they known to the people at Silverlight? Like-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah, yeah. FirstSelector Like does Khriss know Vasher? Brandon Sanderson Know Vasher is a different question than know of Vasher. But they are widely regarded as early cosmere scholars... They are pioneers of this sort of stuff. So yes. They are still widely regarded as "early" cosmere scholars. So we are saying that they invented ALL this other stuff AND figured out that aluminum blocks investiture, despite being very pre-industrial age, and also visiting places that were pre-industrial age. Aluminum wouldn't be very common ANYWHERE in the cosmere at that time. In fact, it should have been nearly impossible for them to have come into contact with it. Maybe Endowment's role was the sheathe, or knowledge of alluminum to make the sheathe.
alder24 Posted January 30, 2024 Posted January 30, 2024 (edited) 53 minutes ago, listerfeend said: That WoB seems to be directly contradicted by the one I posted. He implies there that it is the rate of consumption that is the issue, not the upper limit. So, this is confusing to me. You contradict that by saying that it's about the rate vs the leakage, but he literally just said there that Nightblood can't hold that much investiture, at that rate. Which directly implies that he can hold that much. Maybe this is Brandon misspeaking, me being pedantic (that's a thing I'm told I am, often), or just going off the cuff, but, that's basically all of the WoB's so... It does not. It's about the rate of consumption - because there is no such thing as “the rate of holding” investiture. There are several WoBs talking about Nightblood getting full and not being able to hold that much investiture. He clearly has an upper limit. It's all about how fast he consumes something - it's theoretically possible to feed Nightblood slowly enough that he would leak fast enough to make all investiture in Cosmere to pass through him - but he can't hold that much investiture and that's a fact. 53 minutes ago, listerfeend said: There are definitely possible reasons why he wouldn't grow in size or become an actual black hole, I don't have any off the top of my head, but seeing how Bendalloy burning automatically shoots energy at the boundaries of the bubble into the SR to deal with red/blue shift, I suspect that there are reasons why Nightblood wouldn't operate that way. That would mean when Nightblood would get physically full, he would push all newly consumed investiture directly to SR, thus he wouldn't hold that investiture anymore. But this is incorrect because he can get full and fall into a coma. 53 minutes ago, listerfeend said: How do we know this? I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'm not finding anything that would indicate that Roshar would have had aluminum Post Recreance Some timeline for you if you don't know: Warbreaker is happening only a few generations before WoK, so let's say around 100 years, the Five Scholars were active around 300 years before Warbreaker, that gives us 400 years before WoK - long, loooong after Recreance. Spoiler LewsTherinTelescope How long after Warbreaker does Way of Kings take place? I know you usually don't finalize timeline details until they actually are stated in-book, but are you willing to say how far apart the books are, in the current plans? Brandon Sanderson I have Warbreaker happening a few generations before, right now. However, I'm very likely to move Elantris up in time, so it's a little in the air at the moment. LewsTherinTelescope Thanks! I assume asking why Elantris being moved affects how far apart Warbreaker and Way of Kings are is a behind-the-scenes thing and/or RAFO? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, it does. The big linchpin is going to be when I need Sel and Scadrial to align when big crossovers start happening. We'll know in a few years; there are things I intend to write that I could imagine needing to change, after they're finished, that will influence the timeline structure. General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 5, 2020) Shallan's necklace was made out of aluminum. Aluminum can be Soulcasted into, people like Navani and Rushu knew about Aluminum. Common moneylenders know what aluminum is and how expensive it is. Sure not many people own it, but many know about it. WoR ch 48: Quote “The necklace?” Shallan asked. “Simple, but of aluminum, which can only be made by Soulcasting,” the man said to his boss. “Ten emerald.” And if they said in WoR that aluminum can be made by Soulcasting, that means there are Soulcasters which can make aluminum - all of that post Recreance when Vasher visited Roshar. Moreover Horneaters not only know about it but also obtain it via trade with Shadesmar: Dawnshard ch 7: Quote “Aluminum,” Lopen said, still floating above the deck a few feet. “Yeah, it’s weird stuff. Can block a Shardblade, Rua tells me, if it’s thick enough. They get it from Soulcasting, though only a few can make it, so it’s pretty rare.” “Can get from trade,” Cord said. “In Peaks. We trade.” “Trade?” Huio said. “Who trade?” “People in spren world,” Cord said. And if Lopen knows about aluminum, how it's made and how rare it is - this is not a secret, the Five Scholars would easily get aluminum just on Roshar if they wanted. 53 minutes ago, listerfeend said: I thought maybe you would be referencing the guards on the Shardblades, but that is definitively NOT aluminum, per Brandon/Peter No, I was not, but they function similarly - protect you from getting cut by a Shardblade. 53 minutes ago, listerfeend said: We know that Shallan has an aluminum pendant, and we know that aluminum on Roshar has to be Soulcast. I can't find anything that would suggest that they knew of or had access to aluminum in the past. You literally said it yourself. 53 minutes ago, listerfeend said: They are still widely regarded as "early" cosmere scholars. So we are saying that they invented ALL this other stuff AND figured out that aluminum blocks investiture, despite being very pre-industrial age, and also visiting places that were pre-industrial age. No. Fused were using aluminum thousands of years before them to stop Shardblades - how have they figured this out? The Five Scholars are pioneers of Awakening for sure. And they have visited industrial worlds and that's how they've picked up scientific terminology - they weren't the very first: Spoiler Questioner (paraphrased) A bonus piece of information - my poor friend that I dragged along with me (who had only read Warbreaker) asked about the specific naming of Bio-Chromatic Breath. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Sanderson confirmed as part of his response that at least some the Five Scholars had visited worlds who had gone through the Industrial Revolution (and therefore would have more of a sense of scientific theory, that the Scholars would have picked up on). Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016) It's possible that aluminum can be found on Roshar from other sources than Soulcasting, like mining: Spoiler Questioner So, I'm intrigued by aluminum, especially the fact that it can only be found by Soulcasting on Roshar. So, how was it discovered in the first place? Brandon Sanderson ...Did I say you can only get it through Soulcasting? Questioner In the Shallan flashbacks, she has the pendant. Brandon Sanderson Don't take what she says at 100% truth. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) And there is no indication that aluminum isn't known on Nalthis. It just wasn't mentioned in the book. And if Vasher&co had access to Honorblades then why not to aluminum, which is far more common on Roshar than 9 Honorblades? Spoiler Fluffy (paraphrased) When the Five Scholars traveled to Roshar, this happened post Recreance, so most Shardblades would have been dead, how did Nightblood gain sapience? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Shardblades weren’t the only Blades around that were active, there were Honorblades. Honorblades are self-aware, but do not manifest a spren in the Cognitive Realm. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 15, 2022) 53 minutes ago, listerfeend said: Aluminum wouldn't be very common ANYWHERE in the cosmere at that time. In fact, it should have been nearly impossible for them to have come into contact with it. So how did Navani get it for her fabrials? How did Shallan get her necklace? How did inquisitors or Vin get it? How did Shai know about it? How did the Rose Empire get aluminum to make cells out of it? Yes, it generally isn't common but it's there, people know about it, people use it all across Cosmere. And if Vasher was able to see one of the rarest objects in Cosmere - Honorblades - then how is knowing and getting aluminum any harder than that - they could have just bought it in Shadesmar from merchants in Horneaters Peaks, through which they entered Roshar. Edited January 30, 2024 by alder24
listerfeend Posted January 30, 2024 Posted January 30, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, alder24 said: It does not. It's about the rate of consumption - because there is no such thing as “the rate of holding” investiture. There are several WoBs talking about Nightblood getting full and not being able to hold that much investiture. He clearly has an upper limit. It's all about how fast he consumes something - it's theoretically possible to feed Nightblood slowly enough that he would leak fast enough to make all investiture in Cosmere to pass through him - but he can't hold that much investiture and that's a fact. I think we just fundamentally disagree on this. Of course I'm biased, but Brandon didn't imply it was a storage issue, but a rate issue. Not that he has to leak it out as fast as it comes in. And my theory would hold for a slow rate of absorption. I'm imagining this like bending metal. Even if you get metal hot enough, if you bend it too quickly, or heat it too much or too fast, it will burn, break, and generally just doesn't like being made to do that. If we replace heat with Investiture, and bending with storing, this is basically what I'm thinking is happening. Yes, he can "get full" but is that a function of his storage limit, or the rate at which it is being drawn in pushing on the limits of the malleability of whatever mechanism is being employed to "store" that. Again, we have discussed that Nightblood is one of the most highly invested objects in the cosmere. This has happened over a long period of time. So, either you can make a piece of metal that is just as invested as it is, and it won't leak, or there is SOME mechanism by which he is being made more investable over time. The leaking aspect of this is almost inconsequential when put into the context of just how much investiture we are told is held within that metal. That's a whole separate function of Nightblood, frankly. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Some timeline for you if you don't know: Warbreaker is happening only a few generations before WoK, so let's say around 100 years, the Five Scholars were active around 300 years before Warbreaker, that gives us 400 years before WoK - long, loooong after Recreance. Exactly...LOOONG after the technology and science of pre-Recreance Roshar. And even that was severely set back from where they should have been. We can see that they have not, in anyway, advanced on a similar path as us. Metallurgy is basically only useful for them in creating weapons. Aluminum is a terrible material to make any of the weapons they would want to make, they have no concept, at the time, of Surgebinding or anything else. If the properties of Aluminum were known to them, the Highprinces would more than likely gladly pay whatever sum they need to to have their suits of armor at least plated in Aluminum. In a world where the most powerful weapon known to them is a Shardblade, Aluminum plating would be one of the most advantageous additions to their war tactics. And it would be hella simple. Cover the armor in some material, like clay or something like that, and soul cast that to aluminum, in place. So, if we assume that Vasher and/or Shashara visited approximately 400 years before the events of WoK, there is nothing that would suggest, to me, that they would have encountered Aluminum. Vasher had only been to Roshar before making Nightblood, as far as I know. I struggle with the amount of WoB's I've read vs the ones I can find. However, nothing in that entire process would convince me that he'd come into contact with and recognize the qualities of Aluminum. Maybe one of the other Scholars who had traveled to more "industrial" planets discovered it and passed that along to them. I can see that happening. I suppose it's possible that there was a trade route at that time, but I'm under the assumption that Worldhopping is STILL fairly limited to a select few, and the trade routes that are being developed there are a relatively recent occurrence, and growing quickly by the time of WoK. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: So how did Navani get it for her fabrials? How did Shallan get her necklace? How did inquisitors or Vin get it? How did Shai know about it? How did the Rose Empire get aluminum to make cells out of it? Yes, it generally isn't common but it's there, people know about it, people use it all across Cosmere. And if Vasher was able to see one of the rarest objects in Cosmere - Honorblades - then how is knowing and getting aluminum any harder than that - they could have just bought it in Shadesmar from merchants in Horneaters Peaks, through which they entered Roshar. 4-500 years is a long time in the development of technology, and they are really only now starting to incorporate aluminum into fabrial tech. Aluminum was a major discovery for Navani in RoW, they discovered its use as a shield, a cage, etc... along with brass and zinc. Now, there is certainly some in world stuff where artifabrians aren't exactly willing to share their trade secrets and what not, but... it's not like no one would have looked into that in the 4-500 years. Shallan having an aluminum pendant in "present day" Roshar is not in any way an indication of its use in the past. Navani and Shallan got it for their stuff through soulcasting, and this is hundreds of years after Vasher would have been there. No indication that it was widely used, known about, or anything like that. Inquisitors and Vin got it from the Lord Ruler, who Ascended and knew about aluminum and its effects. I'm not sure how the Rose Empire got it. But again, these are all very niche situations that your average visitor to another world wouldn't come into contact wiht. We are never told that Vasher has/had access to Honorblades, Brandon has been very wishy washy on that. Basically as people have asked him more about the creation of Nightblood, he's gone from "Well, Vasher visited Roshar and saw Shardblades, and based Nightblood on that" to "Well, he didn't have to see living blades to know that they could be. The Honorblades are sapient, and they are around." And he's specifically mentioned that Quote Zas678 Did Vasher visit Roshar before the Recreance? Because he had-- *Brandon mumbles question* Because he had to see Shardblades, and... presumably live ones. Brandon Sanderson Yeah... I'll RAFO that. I'll RAFO that. It is an assumption that he had... He doesn't necessarily have to have seen alive ones. He could have heard records of them. So, frankly, he never needed to have access to a Shardblade, living, dead, or otherwise. Much less an Honorblade. Heck, simply visiting Shinovar and getting them to tell him stories about the Blades would likely have been enough to put the idea in his head about making one. Or hearing legends about them from an Ardent, or something along those lines would work just as well. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: And there is no indication that aluminum isn't known on Nalthis. It just wasn't mentioned in the book. There's no indication that they do know about it, and there is not really a reason to suspect that they do. Again, short of Worldhopping and trade through the CR, there is no way that I can see for Aluminum to be produced on Nalthis at the time of Warbreaker. Now, we know the Scholars did the hopping, so, again, it's possible that one of the other Scholars figured it out. It just strains my suspension of disbelief that we would know about all their other Investiture based discoveries, but not that one? I don't know. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: No. Fused were using aluminum thousands of years before them to stop Shardblades - how have they figured this out? The Five Scholars are pioneers of Awakening for sure. And they have visited industrial worlds and that's how they've picked up scientific terminology - they weren't the very first: You misunderstand my point here. My point isn't that they were the first, but that they were very early scholars, and pretty much the only ones from Nalthis at that time, possibly even still. So, among them, they figured out: Lifeless comands with a single breath, Ichor-Alcohol, Awakening Metal, AND they also figured out one of the least known things in the cosmere at the time? Not only did they discover aluminum, but also its investiture blocking abilities? I don't know how that would even happen. I guess the most simple explanation would be talking to someone in the CR. That feels...bleh to me. Like way too many coincidences for that to actually play out that way. The Fused using Aluminum thousands of years ago does nothing for post Recreance, post stone age reset Desolations. There was no communication of that through time, no one even knew what the Fused were. Or Voidbringers, or anything else. Edited January 30, 2024 by listerfeend
CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 30, 2024 Author Posted January 30, 2024 34 minutes ago, listerfeend said: Again, we have discussed that Nightblood is one of the most highly invested objects in the cosmere. This has happened over a long period of time. So, either you can make a piece of metal that is just as invested as it is, and it won't leak, or there is SOME mechanism by which he is being made more investable over time. This exactly. Obviously we havent been given hard numbers on any of these things, but Nightblood has more investiture than bands of mourning by a lot. We see them almost drain the bands in one event. He has more Investiture than Susebron with 50,000+ breaths. Either Shasharra had hundreds of thousands of breaths when killed or her dying specifically is why Nightblood leaks. 4 hours ago, Treamayne said: So, my point is - example: Even if Nightblood stabbed Susebron (50k+ Breaths and a Divine Breath) Nighblood would not have consumed nearly all of that - most would be lost as the cloud of black smoke that is left in lieu of a corpse - and only some unknown fraction of that would actually be consumed by Nightblood. I have always understood the consumption of Nightblood to be two pronged. Obviously Nightblood consumes the investiture of whatever he touches, however that doesnt mean its all the same consumption. What I mean by that is Nightblood is consuming the investiture of the wielder to FUEL the consuming of whatever he is wielded against. These have always seemed like two separate mechanisms. This can be see from this 4 hours ago, Treamayne said: Vasher spun among them, striking with wrath, killing Lifeless after Lifeless. Black smoke churned around him, and his arm twisted with pain as veinlike tendrils climbed up the hilt and around his forearm—like black blood vessels that latched on to his skin, feeding off his Breath. If nightblood was 'full' and therefore was leaving behind the smoke since he couldnt consume it - why is he still feeding off vasher? 4 hours ago, alder24 said: Actually, it was with the perpendicularity, it would be similar to that. In addition, we dont have anything that says he wont consume you when he is full. There is the WOB that i cannot find where he talks about if you are .001% of 100% then the moment that there is any gone you are going to be consumed. This does not work. Like mathematically. How can he have a defined upper limit, yet eat more and more the more that you use him? That doesnt make any sense. Theoretically if Vasher had one million breaths vs one hundred million breaths, the amount of maximum time that he can wield nightblood should be the same, since the consumption grows exponentially. Again - Shasharras death must have severely modified how nightblood works. There is no way that she could have wielded him for an entire battle without him operating differently. Like even if she had 1 billion breaths, his exponential consumption should severely limit the amount of time you can wield him. For instance: This scenario: Nightblood is already full / Breath Per Second = BPS If you have 10,000 breaths, and lets just say Nightblood consumes them at 1 BPS with an acceleration of 1 BPS - meaning that the first second he will consume 1 breath, next second 2 breaths, etc. That would mean that Nightblood would also need to leak at 1 BPS with an acceleration of 1 BPS - or else you could wield him for hours and hours off of 10,000 breaths. This is not the case - the leakage is never described as more or less - like it is with stormlight. Is that making any sense at all? I think my theory of him using the wielders investiture to fuel consuming the investiture he strikes allows this all the work.
alder24 Posted January 30, 2024 Posted January 30, 2024 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: I think we just fundamentally disagree on this. Of course I'm biased, but Brandon didn't imply it was a storage issue, but a rate issue. Did you even look at the WoBs I've provided 2 posts ago? The most recent one, from Dragonsteel 2023 clearly said that Nightblood has an upper limit of how much investiture he can hold, thus if you have any doubts, the most recent WoB takes priority: Spoiler Questioner Is there a limit to the amount of Investiture that Nightblood can hold. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Yep, there is. Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023) This is fully consistent with other WoBs and the events of RoW, ch 113: Quote The figure that contained Odium’s power—the person who controlled it —evaporated, taken by the sword. That alone was so much Investiture that Taravangian felt the sword grow dull in his fingers. Full, lethargic. As when a hot brand was shoved into a barrel of water, there was an initial hiss—but this power was too vast for the sword to drink. 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: Exactly...LOOONG after the technology and science of pre-Recreance Roshar. And even that was severely set back from where they should have been. We can see that they have not, in anyway, advanced on a similar path as us. Metallurgy is basically only useful for them in creating weapons. Aluminum is a terrible material to make any of the weapons they would want to make, they have no concept, at the time, of Surgebinding or anything else. If the properties of Aluminum were known to them, the Highprinces would more than likely gladly pay whatever sum they need to to have their suits of armor at least plated in Aluminum. In a world where the most powerful weapon known to them is a Shardblade, Aluminum plating would be one of the most advantageous additions to their war tactics. And it would be hella simple. Cover the armor in some material, like clay or something like that, and soul cast that to aluminum, in place. Aluminum would make a terrible armor. This metal isn't fit for any kind of defense. The chances of meeting a Shardbearer on the battlefield is small - there are only 80 known Shardblades on Roshar, 40 of them belong to Alethkar and Jah Keved. The aluminum armor would be shredded to pieces by every foot soldier. It's a really bad idea. Aluminum Soulcasters are very rare, per Dawnshard ch 7. 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: I suppose it's possible that there was a trade route at that time, but I'm under the assumption that Worldhopping is STILL fairly limited to a select few, and the trade routes that are being developed there are a relatively recent occurrence, and growing quickly by the time of WoK. Why? Silverlight was founded ages ago by dragons and settled by worldhoppers. There is no reason to believe that worldhopping is a recent thing. Humanity spread from Yolen by worldhopping before Adonalsium was even Shattered. And there is Ire, a very, very old worldhopping organization, settled in Shadesmar. Worldhopping is very old and is not limited to selected few as even places without stable perpendicularities have worldhoppers (Threnody). Spoiler Questioner Before the Shattering, were people already able to worldhop from Yolen to the other planets like Roshar, and so on? Brandon Sanderson It was possible, it did not happen nearly on the extent that it happens now. It's possible. I would say that, I don't know if there, yeah very very very few instances. Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019) 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: Roshar is not in any way an indication of its use in the past. The common knowledge of aluminum and existence of aluminum Soulcasters indicate its usage in the past. 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: Inquisitors and Vin got it from the Lord Ruler, who Ascended and knew about aluminum and its effects. No, they've mined it, BoM ch 3: Quote "Why, the Last Obligator’s autobiography explains that early aluminum was harvested from the inside of the Ashmounts!” 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: We are never told that Vasher has/had access to Honorblades, Brandon has been very wishy washy on that. Basically as people have asked him more about the creation of Nightblood, he's gone from "Well, Vasher visited Roshar and saw Shardblades, and based Nightblood on that" to "Well, he didn't have to see living blades to know that they could be. The Honorblades are sapient, and they are around." And he's specifically mentioned that Quote Zas678 Did Vasher visit Roshar before the Recreance? Because he had-- *Brandon mumbles question* Because he had to see Shardblades, and... presumably live ones. Brandon Sanderson Yeah... I'll RAFO that. I'll RAFO that. It is an assumption that he had... He doesn't necessarily have to have seen alive ones. He could have heard records of them. So, frankly, he never needed to have access to a Shardblade, living, dead, or otherwise. Much less an Honorblade. Heck, simply visiting Shinovar and getting them to tell him stories about the Blades would likely have been enough to put the idea in his head about making one. Or hearing legends about them from an Ardent, or something along those lines would work just as well. True. 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: There's no indication that they do know about it, and there is not really a reason to suspect that they do. Again, short of Worldhopping and trade through the CR, there is no way that I can see for Aluminum to be produced on Nalthis at the time of Warbreaker. Now, we know the Scholars did the hopping, so, again, it's possible that one of the other Scholars figured it out. It just strains my suspension of disbelief that we would know about all their other Investiture based discoveries, but not that one? I don't know. Firstly aluminum was known and used since 5th century BCE, at least as a compound. It was used extensively in the fabric industry. Secondly they are scholars, they don't need to know everything about aluminum, they just need to try to Awaken it - and they can do this even without the 9th Heightening with just the inactive Command "My Breath to yours" - they would have discovered that way that aluminum can't be Awakened, and because they know that BioChorma (a term picked up from an industrial world) is investiture, they would know it interacts in a similar way with investiture in general and they could try to do more tests. Some worldhoppers can be aware of the properties of aluminum, like Hoid, and they could slowly gain the real image of this metal. It's not hard to imagine that they would quickly figure out its value. Spoiler Chris King Can you store Breath in metal without the [Ninth] Heightening? Just put it there without Awakening, just to hide the Breath. Brandon Sanderson Can you hide Breath in-- Yes you can hide Breath in things. Chris King Metal in particular, without the [Ninth] Heightening could you put it into metal. Without the purpose of Awakening it, just storing it there. Brandon Sanderson Oh without the [Ninth] Heightening-- I would say yes you could. Chris King interview (Sept. 24, 2013) 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: The Fused using Aluminum thousands of years ago does nothing for post Recreance, post stone age reset Desolations. There was no communication of that through time, no one even knew what the Fused were. Or Voidbringers, or anything else. Spren knew, not every spren died during Recreance, they knew, they could tell the story. Radiants knew they could tell the story. The fact that aluminum is traded in Horneaters peak means that in CS they know the value of it really well. I think you severely overestimate how unknown aluminum is, especially among scholarly or worldhopping communities. I really see no problem here. Even Scadrial pre Rashek Ascension was industrialized. 39 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: In addition, we dont have anything that says he wont consume you when he is full. There is the WOB that i cannot find where he talks about if you are .001% of 100% then the moment that there is any gone you are going to be consumed. We know, I've put on the first post on this second page: Spoiler Questioner Is Nightblood more or less susceptible to damage and/or death when he's satiated on Investiture? Brandon Sanderson Satiated, he's much less dangerous. More susceptible, I would say by technicality, yes. When he's full, it's gonna be harder for him to pull in things, so all sorts of things could happen. So yes. But it's not that he's weaker, it's not like the metal is easier to break or bend, it's more that he's not as likely to suck your soul. Questioner So he behaves more like a regular sword. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, a little bit more. Still, for human levels of Investiture, still really dangerous to touch him. He's satiated, but if he's at 100%, and the amount of you he could eat represents 0.001%, the moment a little of that wears off, you're gone. So still would not be picking him up in most cases, just out of that, "Oh! He got a little hungry again!" But in terms of larger, grand scale Shard stuff, much safer to handle. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) 41 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: This does not work. Like mathematically. How can he have a defined upper limit, yet eat more and more the more that you use him? Because he constantly leaks investiture making space for more. That's how. When he reaches the limit he can't consume more investiture. He isn't fully full, he is just really close to being full. It's really simple. 42 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Theoretically if Vasher had one million breaths vs one hundred million breaths, the amount of maximum time that he can wield nightblood should be the same, since the consumption grows exponentially. Incorrect. The one with 100 mil Breaths would last longer, but not proportionally. However Nightblood can't hold that much investiture, confirmed by this WoB: Quote Questioner Is there a limit to the amount of Investiture that Nightblood can hold. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Yep, there is. Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023) 48 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Again - Shasharras death must have severely modified how nightblood works. No. How would that even work? He was already Awakened, he was already made. We know Nightblood leaks consumed and corrupted Breaths - the one he fed on when he was used. That's what is leaking. We know he was created with 1000 Breaths and that makes his soul. We know he grew in power. Thus the simplest explanation is that Nightblood was created, he didn't leak any smoke until he was used for the first time, then he started to leak, then he was used to kill Shashara and was renamed Nightblood. Over time he became as invested as we see him in books, but he wasn't like that when he was created. Now he is supersaturated, he is very close to being fully full, when he reaches that point he falls into a coma, but because he leaks investiture he gets away from that and makes space for new investiture to stuff inside of him. I'm quite sure there was a WoB stating that Nightblood acts like a Returned and their Divine Breath, not just stuffing investiture into the sword but using it up and consuming it to maintain his Command - just like Divine Breath uses up a Breath every week, Nightblood also does that when drawn. Thus not every investiture he feeds on remains in the blade, some is used up, some is leaked. But I can't find this WoB. 45 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I think my theory of him using the wielders investiture to fuel consuming the investiture he strikes allows this all the work. Impossible, because Nightblood fed directly on Rayse, not Taravangian. He was filled by Rayse, not Taravangian. The fact that Taravangian quickly stabbed Rayse saved him from getting consumed by Nightblood. Nightblood consumes not only investiture of its wielder but also some of investiture he strikes, and he can be fed only by one source - the people he kills - because of Rayse's example. So if Nightblood is constantly used to kill, you reduce the number of Breaths he will drain from you. If Nightblood was using Taravangian's investiture he would have consumed all of him. 1
Treamayne Posted January 30, 2024 Posted January 30, 2024 (edited) 7 hours ago, listerfeend said: Brandon has implied that Nightblood CAN absorb an infinite amount of Investiture. It's not the amount of Investiture, but the rate at which he consumes that is the limiting factor. Which I feel supports my thoughts above. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Nightblood didn't take up a Shard, Nightblood was not there... Oh, [they're] probably just asking why Nightblood did not absorb the entire Shard of Odium. Nightblood cannot hold that much Investiture. At least not at that rate, right? 5 hours ago, listerfeend said: That WoB seems to be directly contradicted by the one I posted. He implies there that it is the rate of consumption that is the issue, not the upper limit. So, this is confusing to me. You contradict that by saying that it's about the rate vs the leakage, but he literally just said there that Nightblood can't hold that much investiture, at that rate. Which directly implies that he can hold that much. Maybe this is Brandon misspeaking, me being pedantic (that's a thing I'm told I am, often), or just going off the cuff, but, that's basically all of the WoB's so... Please, for Ado's sake - if you are going to quote a WoB, use the "Copy " button on the right (it will put the whole WoB and a link in your paste queue) and if you plan to edit that WoB, note that you are not posting the full text. So, here is your referenced Word of Brandon, in Full, which says the opposite of what you are claiming (just in the part that you did not copy). Spoiler Ryan Do we know why Nightblood didn't take up a Shard? Brandon Sanderson Nightblood didn't take up a Shard, Nightblood was not there... Oh, [they're] probably just asking why Nightblood did not absorb the entire Shard of Odium. Nightblood cannot hold that much Investiture. At least not at that rate, right? Like, if you drop Nightblood without his sheath... I have to do it this way, because otherwise you drop him on the planet and he would absorb the entire planet, right. This is not a power I want Nightblood to have. I do not want Nightblood... Nightblood is a very dangerous tool without also being the death star. I did not want... I actually was happy that I had the chance to put that scene in so I kind of put the kabosh on Nightblood being able to absorb the entire Investiture of an entire Shard. Not where I wanted... I didn't want that to be a promise people thought was coming. Now, he can absorb a lot and it's also rate of absorption is a pretty important deal. ... People are gonna quote me on this in ten years and things like that and say "but, but, but". Just, you know, understand that there are specific ways that I'm trying to phrase some of these things. The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021) I'm confused (and I'm sorry if this comes off as antagonistic): 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Quote Vasher spun among them, striking with wrath, killing Lifeless after Lifeless. Black smoke churned around him, and his arm twisted with pain as veinlike tendrils climbed up the hilt and around his forearm—like black blood vessels that latched on to his skin, feeding off his Breath. If nightblood was 'full' and therefore was leaving behind the smoke since he couldnt consume it - why is he still feeding off vasher? But did you read the post you quoted that from? My whole point was that he was not full - and Nightblood is shown to not consume all investiture he touches. That was the point of that example. . . not full, not consuming all of the Lifeless (leaving black smoke where they died). Original point: 6 hours ago, Treamayne said: I just want to point out that he does not (or not always) "suck in and consume" all investiture he touches. He sucks in and consumes a fraction (how large a fraction is debatable), and the rest is recycled as corrupted investiture smoke Edited January 30, 2024 by Treamayne SPAG/Updates 2
CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 31, 2024 Author Posted January 31, 2024 (edited) OK im going to try again. Thank you to @alder24 @Treamayne for contributing, I have learned quite a bit through this thread. However, we haven't really touched on the true point of confusion here. The specific details of Nightbloods leakage and consumption just arent adding up. We have been bringing up other details (endowments involvement, moment of creation, shasharra, etc) to help explain but I think they moved us past our original intent (hah). So with how you all are explaining that Nightblood works - there is a cap on the amount of BEU's that the sword can hold in total. Since Nightblood is 'almost' to fully full, the sword is supersaturated in Investiture and therefore leaks a black smoke that is overflowing corrupted investiture from what he has consumed. Lets look at ROW spoilers: Spoiler Szeth closes Honors perpendicularity with Nightblood in OB and he is considered 'full'. We will call this an 'infinite investiture' situation where Nightblood can consume as much as he wants. ROW is approximately one year later in world, and in that we see ROW spoilers: Spoiler Taravangian kills Rayse with Nightblood, who consumes almost the entire vessel. It is not a leap in logic to believe that consuming a vessel would be the most invested entity that Nightblood could be stabbed into. You want us to believe that Nightblood leaked almost an entire vessels worth of investiture in a year? We see when OB spoilers: Spoiler Szeth fights at Thaylen Fields, peoples bodies disappear into clouds of smoke. The investiture of the average Rosharan should be a little less than 1 breath - and they create huge clouds of smoke. Barely ANY leaks off Nightblood by comparison. Continued OB and ROW: Spoiler If Nightblood was leaking hundreds of thousands to millions of BEU's over the course of the year, someone / something would have noticed. We see all the time in the cosmere that when investiture is condensed into one area, freaky stuff starts to happen. That amount of released investiture into Roshar in a year should have serious consequences for the surrounding area, especially considering that it is corrupted investiture. But no ROW: Spoiler Szeth just sheathes Nightblood after he kills Rayse and continues along his way. EDIT: Spoiler It has been pointed out that Szeth closes the perpendicularity in ROW not OB, so the timegap is way less than a year. In addition, Szeth keeps Nightblood clasped in the sheath, meaning it he wouldn't have been leaking in that time anyway. This is what i was originially getting at, apologies for not being very clear. Edited January 31, 2024 by CtrlAltDepressed 1
alder24 Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 7 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Lets look at Oathbringer spoilers: You don't need to put those things into any spoiler boxes in this sub forum - Full Cosmere spoilers are allowed here without restrictions. Only TSM spoilers (and readings but they can be in a spoiler box) are not allowed here (so please avoid using the term BEU until TSM leaves the spoiler zone). 8 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Szeth closes Honors perpendicularity with Nightblood in OB and he is considered 'full'. This didn't happen in OB but in RoW ch 111. However in OB Nightblood was feeding on Szeth and Lift when Dalinar opened his perpendicularity, feeding him enough to make him regain his sanity and talk to others. I propose that in that moment he fell into a food coma state (which Brandon mistakes for RoW moment). OB ch 119: Quote Light. Like a sudden detonation, a force of light flashed across the field. Gemstones on the ground flared up, capturing Stormlight, and the assassin screamed, drawing in Light like glowing mist. The vines shriveled, as the sword’s thirst was slaked by the Stormlight. Lift fell back on the stone and pried her hands off Szeth’s head. I knew I liked you, a voice said in Lift’s mind. The sword. So it was a spren? “You almost ate him,” Lift said. “You almost starvin’ ate me!” Oh, I wouldn’t do that, the voice said. She seemed completely baffled, voice growing slow, like she was drowsy. But … maybe I was just really, really hungry.… Well, Lift supposed she couldn’t blame someone for that. However the moment Brandon refers to in WoBs, when Nightblood collapsed Dalinar's perpendicularity in RoW ch 111, Nightblood was clearly not satisfied and he kept draining Szeth's light at an alarming rate. He wasn't full at that moment and this is fine with WoBs because Brandon was not sure about it. Quote Szeth spun and stabbed the sword into the heart of the perpendicularity. The Stormfather shouted in anger as the perpendicularity collapsed, folding in upon itself. [...] Dalinar glanced at Szeth, who was alight with Stormlight—though it was being drawn at a ferocious rate into his weapon. 16 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: We will call this an 'infinite investiture' situation where Nightblood can consume as much as he wants. ROW is approximately one year later in world, and in that we see ROW spoilers: I would not call that infinite investiture, a perpendicularity has a fixed rate of investiture flaw and Nightblood draws more than a perpendicularity can provide, thus he collapses it - just like with Aons. And he also probably just consumes the structure which holds 3 realms close together in the first place - just like with Aons. Spoiler Questioner Could an Elantrian just write an Aon above Nightblood and then use it forever? Brandon Sanderson Use it forever? No. Questioner Forever is pushing it. Brandon Sanderson No, no, I mean, Nightblood would destroy an Aon pretty quickly. It would pull power through it-- Questioner It would be like trying to put too much power through a small-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah, it would just rip it up to shreds. You'd get a little use out of it. He would eat the very structure of it, if that makes any sense. Oathbringer Leeds signing (Dec. 1, 2017) 16 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Taravangian kills Rayse with Nightblood, who consumes almost the entire vessel. It is not a leap in logic to believe that consuming a vessel would be the most invested entity that Nightblood could be stabbed into. You want us to believe that Nightblood leaked almost an entire vessels worth of investiture in a year? As pointed out by @Treamayne not every bit of investiture is sucked into Nightblood, some is transformed directly into corrupted investiture - the black smoke. Plus not everything was eaten by Nightblood - parts of Vessel's spirit web were spared and that manifested as bones in the Physical Realm. Nightblood sucked enough to kill Rayse but not every bit of Rayse. So yes, Nigtblood had leaked enough to eat a considerable amount of Rayse. The explosion that happened in RoW ch 111, when Nightblood touched Ishar's Honorblade, might cause him to lose some investiture too - we don't know what was the nature of it. I've found this WoB. Apparently a Vessel is LESS interested than an Unmade, so Nightblood doesn't need that much space: Spoiler Questioner Assuming you have a way to siphon out a Vessel from a Shard, how much hemalurgic metal would be required to contain that Vessel? Brandon Sanderson An astronomically large amount. Oh, the Vessel? Or contain a Shard? The Vessel, just a little dude... not that much. Basically, like a decent-sized gemstone would hold an Unmade, and that's more Investiture than we're talking about. Questioner Can hemalurgic metal hold around the same amount of an Invested creature as a pure gemstone? Brandon Sanderson No, gemstones can do more. Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023) 29 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Szeth fights at Thaylen Fields, peoples bodies disappear into clouds of smoke. The investiture of the average Rosharan should be a little less than 1 breath - and they create huge clouds of smoke. Barely ANY leaks off Nightblood by comparison. A Breath isn't the whole soul, a Breath it's innate investiture, addition to a soul. An average Rosharan has innate investiture as well, so I would bet that's more than 1 Breath of investiture, closer to 2 Breaths (if we assume a soul is equally invested to 1 Breath). Spoiler Questioner If someone from, say, Roshar, traveled to the world of Warbreaker, do they have Breath? Brandon Sanderson No, they do not. And if someone from the Warbreaker world leaves, they will still have their Breath... They would not register as being a Drab to people who are looking. They would register as Option C. Particularly someone from Roshar, who is from a primary Shardworld, is slightly Invested. Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018) Spoiler Questioner On all the cosmere worlds, it seem as if-- do all the humans have what you call innate Investiture? Brandon Sanderson Let's see... *thinks* I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet. Questioner Because when they don't have Breath anymore, they would get Drabs, and those don't have innate Investiture? Brandon Sanderson They don't have innate Investiture. And on Scadrial they have the pieces of Ruin and Preservation in them. And they do have it on Roshar. Questioner Which Shard is that? Brandon Sanderson You'll have to read and find out. *gives card* So yes, I don't think you've seen any worlds where they don't. Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014) Keep in mind, in Warbreaker Nightblood consumed hundreds of Breaths in the matter of minutes, he can fit whatever he ate at the Battle of Thaylen Field. We don't know how much he leaks but another factor to consider is the physical state of the investiture leaking out - it's a smoke, a gas but it behaves and is often described as liquid. He leaks liquid investiture directly from the blade, but because it's no longer under the immense pressure of all that stuffed investiture, it transforms into gaseous investiture quite fast. So the concentration of investiture might be larger than you think so (for comparison water is 1600x denser than water vapor - for in Cosmere comparison a sip of liquid investiture is enough to power Allomancy with comparable power to that of the Lord Ruler), larger than what he is fed on with normal souls. In the end we don't know, we can only speculate. Warbreaker ch 56: Quote The blade sprayed a wave of black liquid as he swung it. The liquid dissolved into smoke before touching walls or floor, like water in an oven. Smoke twisted, some rising from the blade, some falling in a stream to the floor, dripping like black blood. 43 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: If Nightblood was leaking hundreds of thousands to millions of BEU's over the course of the year, someone / something would have noticed That is not needed. Nightblood probably can't hold millions of Breaths, that's a bit too much. 46 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: We see all the time in the cosmere that when investiture is condensed into one area, freaky stuff starts to happen. That amount of released investiture into Roshar in a year should have serious consequences for the surrounding area, especially considering that it is corrupted investiture. But no It is not released into Roshar, it decays into SR and is recycled there. Just like when you breathe out Stormlight it will disappear into SR - it doesn't stay in PR. 2
Treamayne Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: This is what i was originially getting at, apologies for not being very clear. I'm guessing none of us was clear. Just to verify, are you still implying that Nightblood is consuming "all" of whatever he was stabbed? Because, to me, that is the major point of contention. There are two things happening when Nightblood is drawn: Nighblood directly consumes investiture from his wielder to help power his Command The portion of this that is used in powering the Command likely returns to the Investiture Cycle Nightblood destroys the object in all three realms simultaneously, consuming a portion of the investiture that was in the physical realm Corollaries: The portions of investiture not in the physical realm likely return to the investiture cycle When drawn outside of the Physical Realm (such as the Demense used to consume Rayse), it is likely that a portion is consumed, and the rest returns directly to the Investiture Cycle without becoming a cloud of black smoke (because they are not in the physical realm, where the freefloating investure would manifest as such based on SR events as perceived though the Cognitive lens) The portion of the investiture in the physical realm that was not consumed, turns into black smoke If left alone, that smoke dissipates, and likely returns to the Investiture Cycle If Nightblood is held in the black smoke that results after destroying something, he will continue to consume that free-floating investure and leak it back out as a more viscous liquid smoke. Various References: Spoiler Oathbringer Ch 92: Quote Flesh and blood puffed instantly into black smoke. Ordinary Shardblades burned only the eyes, but this sword somehow consumed the entire body. It seemed to sear away even the man’s soul. EVIL! <snip> “You have done well,” she said slowly, glancing at where the nobleman had stood. There wasn’t even a stain on the stones. Oathbringer Ch 117: Quote As the monster raised its fist to strike Lift, the spear of light hit the creature in the head and cut straight through. It divided the enormous thing in two, sending out an explosion of black smoke. The halves of the monster fell to the sides, crashing into the stone, then burned away, evaporating into blackness. Soldiers cursed and coughed, backing up as something resolved in the center of the tempest. A figure in the smoke, glowing white and holding a jet-black Shardblade that seemed to feed on the smoke, sucking it in, then letting it pour down beneath itself as a liquid blackness. WoB: Quote uchoo786 I know that Nightblood is technically a shardblade (invested sword), but can one use it without being bonded to a Spren since on Roshar the only way to breathe is stormlight and use it is by being bonded to a spren? Would Nightblood also work like a shardblade, in that it severs the soul instead of consuming it when it touches a person? Brandon Sanderson Remember that the Honorblades do not require one to be bonded to a spren to use, or gain access to powers. Nightblood goes one step further, vaporizing and destroying on all three realms. uchoo786 So, if I understand this correctly, Nightblood will act like an Honorblade and allow Szeth to breath in Stormlight? Will his surges be completely different than anything Roshar has seen before, or will his surges be those of the Skybreakers since Nightblood's purpose is pretty similar to theirs? Brandon Sanderson You'll have to wait and see. /r/books AMA 2015 (May 18, 2015) Plus WoBs already quoted earlier 33 minutes ago, alder24 said: This didn't happen in OB but in RoW ch 111. He also entered a "Food Coma" state when killing Rayse: Spoiler RoW Ch: 113 Quote Taravangian rammed it up into Odium’s chest. The sword drank greedily of the god’s essence, and as it did, Taravangian felt a snap. His body dying. Szeth finishing the job. He knew it immediately. Taravangian was dead. Anger rose in him like he had never known. Szeth had killed him! Odium screamed, and the golden place shattered, turning to darkness. The sword undulated in Taravangian’s grip, pulling power from the god it had stabbed. The figure that contained Odium’s power—the person who controlled it—evaporated, taken by the sword. That alone was so much Investiture that Taravangian felt the sword grow dull in his fingers. Full, lethargic. As when a hot brand was shoved into a barrel of water, there was an initial hiss—but this power was too vast for the sword to drink. 33 minutes ago, alder24 said: Keep in mind, in Warbreaker Nightblood consumed hundreds of Breaths in the matter of minutes, he can fit whatever he ate at the Battle of Thaylen Field. We don't know how much he leaks but another factor to consider is the physical state of the investiture leaking out - it's a smoke, a gas but it behaves and is often described as liquid. He leaks liquid investiture directly from the blade, but because it's no longer under the immense pressure of all that stuffed investiture, it transforms into gaseous investiture quite fast. We also see that as Nightblood's rate of consumption increases, the ratio of liquid to gas increases as well: Spoiler Warbreaker Ch 56: Quote He ran forward and grabbed Nightblood’s hilt and pulled the sword free, leaving the sheath behind in the body. The blade sprayed a wave of black liquid as he swung it. The liquid dissolved into smoke before touching walls or floor, like water in an oven. Smoke twisted, some rising from the blade, some falling in a stream to the floor, dripping like black blood. <snip> Gasping, he threw the sword aside and fell to his knees. It skidded, tearing a rip in the floor that puffed away into smoke, but hit a wall with a pling and fell still. Smoke rose from the blade. Actively consuming = smoke + liquid dripping and evaporating Not actively consuming = just smoke OB Ch 117/118: Quote It divided the enormous thing in two, sending out an explosion of black smoke. The halves of the monster fell to the sides, crashing into the stone, then burned away, evaporating into blackness. Soldiers cursed and coughed, backing up as something resolved in the center of the tempest. A figure in the smoke, glowing white and holding a jet-black Shardblade that seemed to feed on the smoke, sucking it in, then letting it pour down beneath itself as a liquid blackness. <snip> He plowed through soldiers, men bursting into smoke, seeking that one individual. The Voidbringer turned at the last moment, dancing away from his sword. Szeth Lashed himself downward, then spun in a sweeping arc, towing black smoke—almost liquid—behind his sword as he destroyed men in a grand circle. Consuming a Thunderclast made it so almost all released investiture was liquid, but by the time the fused is blocking Nightblood with his own sheath, the smoke is only "almost liquid" Edited January 31, 2024 by Treamayne SPAG/Reference 2
CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 31, 2024 Author Posted January 31, 2024 14 minutes ago, alder24 said: You don't need to put those things into any spoiler boxes in this sub forum - Full Cosmere spoilers are allowed here without restrictions. Only TSM spoilers (and readings but they can be in a spoiler box) are not allowed here (so please avoid using the term BEU until TSM leaves the spoiler zone). Thank you for the clarification. Is it ok to still put things in tags? I dont want to accidentally spoil something or break a rule. 1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: It has been pointed out that Szeth closes the perpendicularity in ROW not OB, so the timegap is way less than a year. In addition, Szeth keeps Nightblood clasped in the sheath, meaning it he wouldn't have been leaking in that time anyway. I dont think you've fully explained this part (sorry it was in an edit). Szeth keeps NB in the sheath unless he is using him - how would NB have had time to leak (almost) a vessels worth of investiture. Your point about the unmade being more invested than a vessel - sure - but those are both still SUPER invested entities by normal people standards (what NB mostly eats). In addition, there is something to the fact that Nightblood was not just consuming Rayse, he was consuming (tiny tiny tiny) parts of the shard Odium through Rayse's Connection. This was hands down the most investiture we've seen Nightblood consume at one time. As far as Rayse not being as Invested as Unmade due to storage in a gemstone - we see in the passage that you quoted that Szeth used many gemstones worth of stormlight to fuel Nightblood for a couple of seconds - and it kept eating. I think the gemstone thing is not a true measure of capacity of the gemstone but more a function of the physical structure of a gemstone (crystal structure doesnt have gaps for things to escape). So starting from that point - is Nightblood going to be very very very close to satiated for a long time since Szeth isnt letting him leak? If he does start consuming szeth when wielded, it should take minimal stormlight for szeth to wield him since Nightblood is at 100%. Like, all of the things you have said work on their own. But you still havent showed me how the amount he can store total, the amount he leaks, and the amount he consumes (exponential) can work all together. He cant consume it exponentially in this scenario if he is that close to full. See what im getting at? If this IS the case, we should / need to see some different behavior from Nightblood in SA5. Either he wont consume exponentially when drawn after this event, or this understanding of Nightblood is flawed. 32 minutes ago, alder24 said: It is not released into Roshar, it decays into SR and is recycled there. Just like when you breathe out Stormlight it will disappear into SR - it doesn't stay in PR. Sauce?
Treamayne Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 4 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Sauce? SR = Spiritual Realm (CR = Cognitive Realm, PR = Physical Realm) 4 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I dont think you've fully explained this part (sorry it was in an edit). Szeth keeps NB in the sheath unless he is using him - how would NB have had time to leak (almost) a vessels worth of investiture. Your point about the unmade being more invested than a vessel - sure - but those are both still SUPER invested entities by normal people standards (what NB mostly eats). You seem to be hung up on the idea that Nightblood has to "lose" investiture to make space to consume investiture. That does not meet what we have seen. Example: Fill a glass with water. Now put it under the tap on a slow trickle. Water spills out over sides. Increase the tap pressure and the water spills out faster. If or how much has been leaked before he is weilded has little to no bearing on the process. He always leaks some when drawn, If his intake meets his "cap" then he leaks faster. Also, breaths "consumed" from the wielder are powering his Command, not being absorbed into his storage. Spoiler Annotations to Ch 58: Quote Anyway, a lot of important things happen here. Note that Nightblood doesn’t remember being drawn. When he was created, the Breaths gave him sentience as planned. (That was a big part of the goal in making him—to prove the existence of Type Four BioChromatic entities.) However, once he is drawn, his Command takes force and he acts much more like a regular Awakened object—only one with very strange abilities and powers. 2
alder24 Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 26 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Thank you for the clarification. Is it ok to still put things in tags? I dont want to accidentally spoil something or break a rule. You really don't have to worry about it in the Cosmere Discussion section, you need to only remember to avoid talking about books in the Spoiler Zone and to just warn if you want to talk about readings, like SA 5 prologue (preferably in the title, in posts that should be put in a spoiler box). In other sections, like in SA you can write without spoiler boxes all about SA (excluding readings) but everything from other books, like Mistborn, has to be put into a spoiler box. You have written rules just below the name of the sub-forum, at the very top of it: Quote Cosmere Discussion Post discussion for the cosmere at large, Shards, Hoid, or general Arcanum Unbounded content here. All spoilers are allowed, except for upcoming releases / new releases, such as The Sunlit Man, which have their own forum for discussion. Use book forums if your post only relates to a single series. 2 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I dont think you've fully explained this part (sorry it was in an edit). Szeth keeps NB in the sheath unless he is using him - how would NB have had time to leak (almost) a vessels worth of investiture. Nightblood is not 100% covered by aluminum, his handle is not out of aluminum and some of his investiture is lost this way - that's also the reason why he can bond with people, talk to them and possess them to kill. Secondly there was a year long war happening in between, Szeth likely participated in it, being always close to Dalinar on the battlefront. He probably has many opportunities to use Nightblood and leak more investiture. And when Nightblood is being used, some investiture is used and lost to fuel his Command directly - like with Divine Breath. 4 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: In addition, there is something to the fact that Nightblood was not just consuming Rayse, he was consuming (tiny tiny tiny) parts of the shard Odium through Rayse's Connection. This was hands down the most investiture we've seen Nightblood consume at one time. Incorrect. Nightblood got full just by consuming Rayse alone, before he was able to touch Odium. At best whatever investiture was used to expand the Vessel's mind during Ascension is now gone, but that's still smaller than an Unmade. Quote The figure that contained Odium’s power—the person who controlled it —evaporated, taken by the sword. That alone was so much Investiture that Taravangian felt the sword grow dull in his fingers. Full, lethargic. As when a hot brand was shoved into a barrel of water, there was an initial hiss—but this power was too vast for the sword to drink. 7 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: As far as Rayse not being as Invested as Unmade due to storage in a gemstone - we see in the passage that you quoted that Szeth used many gemstones worth of stormlight to fuel Nightblood for a couple of seconds - and it kept eating. I think the gemstone thing is not a true measure of capacity of the gemstone but more a function of the physical structure of a gemstone (crystal structure doesnt have gaps for things to escape). Did you forget what kind of gemstone can hold an Unmade? Not a tiny one in spheres, but a large one, like King's Drop, that was used to seal the Thrill during the Battle of Thaylen Field - the size of a child's head. The difference in volume is almost incomparable. Gemstones as big as that can hold so much more Stormlight than simple spheres. 10 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: So starting from that point - is Nightblood going to be very very very close to satiated for a long time since Szeth isnt letting him leak? If he does start consuming szeth when wielded, it should take minimal stormlight for szeth to wield him since Nightblood is at 100%. That probably should not be a big factor. He was unsheathed for a moment before Szeth picked him up. So for a short period of time - days, weeks, maybe a month or two - he might be able to consume much less than before, be he still cuts in all 3 realms, he still is deadly and he still corrupts investiture turning people into smoke, even if he doesn't consume them. 13 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Like, all of the things you have said work on their own. But you still havent showed me how the amount he can store total, the amount he leaks, and the amount he consumes (exponential) can work all together. He cant consume it exponentially in this scenario if he is that close to full. See what im getting at? Not really. Even if he can't consume, he still turns everything into a black smoke. As Treamayne has shown with quotes, he doesn't have to consume to turn things into a black smoke. He leaks something even when sheathed, he leaks more when he is used. He always consumes exponentially, which means the rate of consumption grows with every second when he is used - it doesn't matter if he is close to being full, this doesn't affect his rate of consumption. Compare it to driving a car while constantly hitting the gas pedal - it doesn't matter if you have a long road ahead of you with a wall at the end, or a wall just in front of you, you will still accelerate until you hit the wall. 20 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: If this IS the case, we should / need to see some different behavior from Nightblood in SA5. Either he wont consume exponentially when drawn after this event, or this understanding of Nightblood is flawed. No and no. Nigthblood's rate of consumption is defined - the more he is used, the more he consumes, until reaching maximum he can hold. This also applies even if he is really close to being full, the time he will consume investiture is simply just short. 26 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Sauce? Spoiler Skyler Cecil Is there an Investiture cycle on Roshar? Cycling through the crem rain and flora and fauna back into the storm, or something like that. Like the water cycle. If Investiture is finite, is it recycled back into the Cosmere when Investiture like Breath or Stormlight is expended? Otherwise, wouldn't Investiture run out? Brandon Sanderson Yes, there is such a cycle. It is renewed and changed time and time again. It gets in and out of the Spiritual Realm, often with the birth of new individuals. Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018) Spoiler Argent Awakening and Surgebinding, Stormlight and Breath seem really similar in some aspects-- Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent --except Breaths seem to stick to things better-- Brandon Sanderson They do. Argent --than Stormlight. So when you are holding the Breath it doesn't expire when you put it in something it doesn't go away. Can you tell me something about why that's happening? Brandon Sanderson Part of this is kind of inherent to the Shard and the power it's coming from. I mean the power of Endowment is just going to stick, that's part of the nature of its magic. Does that make sense? But it also kind of has to do with how the ecosystems are working. For instance the Stormlight is essential to the ecosystem of Roshar, it needs to be expended, it needs to get out and-- It's like evaporation, does that make sense? Argent Recycling? Not the recycling but the cycle of-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah, yeah like the cycle of water. And so just part of the way the nature of it works, it has to get out, it has to leak out, it has to run out. I mean it leaks even from spheres, right? Argent And when you lash things it's temporary-- Brandon Sanderson Yep. And even though Szeth says that he thought Voidbringers could hold it they can't. Like it is just not the way that it works. Argent Can they just hold it better? Brandon Sanderson They can hold it better. It's not permanent. Now there are things that can do it permanently but-- Argent Like the black sphere for example? Brandon Sanderson Well we are not going to... The black sphere is something different. You guys have guessed what the black sphere is, right? Argent Well we have some ideas. I support that it holds an Unmade. Am I wrong? Brandon Sanderson I'm not going to answer that. Argent But you said-- Brandon Sanderson I'm just curious what the theories are. Book 3 the black sphere is-- Everyone who reads the books will know what the black sphere is by the end of Book 3. Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015) 2
Treamayne Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 Just to close the loop on how this thread started: On 1/25/2024 at 4:20 PM, listerfeend said: Reading this, I'm wondering if there is a difference between giving something, or someone, Breaths, and using them to Awaken the thing. I don't think we've seen anything Awakened with more than a few breaths. Yes, there is a difference. The Command "My Breath become Yours" (and it's "variants") means you are giving that breath to the recipient and the Breath becomes keyed to their identity. Awakened objects (except Lifeless), however, do not change the Key of the Breath, which is why the breath can be retrieved. Spoiler WoB (edited to relevant section) Quote Badger1289 If Investiture can’t be moved beyond a certain point away from its world/solar system, how in the Cosmere did three Awakeners end up on Roshar? Brandon Sanderson Investiture from different systems acts in different ways. Certain people have managed, for example, to get some kinds of Investiture to leave their home world through the use of a kind of magical pipeline. Breaths attach to the identity of the individual, and are fully given away--freely, which removes some of this Connection. It's a nature of Endowment that the gift is given without strings attached, so to speak. But while it's a renewable resource, it's a difficult one. Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 8, 2020) Quote Questioner In the Graphic Audio books... Obviously they had to change things, and when Vasher wake-- or puts the rest of the Breath into the rope he uses a different Command. He says, "My breath to give for life to live." Is that that canon, or is that just... Brandon Sanderson So here's the thing... You have to be ver--... White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016) Shows Vasher's use of a variant Command to protect his Divine breath added to the Graphic Audio version. On 1/25/2024 at 3:57 PM, CtrlAltDepressed said: Today I would like to talk about our favorite sword, Nightblood. My friend and I talk about the cosmere pretty much every day at work, and at least 80% of the conversations revolve around Nightblood (surprise surprise). There are simultaneously a lot of details regarding his nature / creation, and also none at all. We have talked through the details a million different ways, and cant seem to make it make sense. OK here goes. Spoiler What we know: Vasher tells us that Nightblood was created with 1000 breaths and the 'normal' Nalthian awakening process. He was a regular steel sword that was not a dawnshard, metalmind, or hemalurgic spike. When he was created, he immediately turned completely black and started leaking black smoke downwards. In recent years, Brandon has confirmed that Endowment was involved in the creation of Nightblood, beyond the 'normal' use of her investiture to awaken things. To what extent we have no idea, but she had something to do with the process. Regarding the black smoke. Brandon has told us that Nightblood leaks black smoke because the physical sword is oversaturated with investiture, so it leaks out. This leak is akin to the leaking of Stormlight from radiants / shardblades, or the leaking of dor from Elantrians. This should not be the case with 1000 normal breaths. In warbreaker, we see vivenna put 3500(?) breaths into a scarf and it does not leak at all. So, how is Nightblood different? Our current theory is that divine breath was involved somehow. That Endowment gave Nightblood a divine breath in addition to the 1000 Shasharra gave, bringing the total to about 3000 breaths (1 divine is 5th heightening). That number still seems low. Another less likely theory is that Shasharra used 1000 divine breaths to make him, which would be about 2 million breaths. That would make more sense for Nightbloods nature. However, I think Vasher would definitely have been able to tell the difference between several thousand and several million breaths. One other fun tidbit: Ruin's investiture is in Nightblood, and combining that with the wob that states Nightblood has been to more than two planets (nalthis, roshar), we can be fairly confident Nightblood has been to Scadrial. Not necessarily relevant to his creation but an interesting note. Thoughts? So, there were not any actual questions, but have we clarified all points? Awakened with 1000 Breaths and a special Command to Awaken metal Those breaths provide Sentience/Sapience when sheathed, but then enforce his Command "Destroy Evil" when drawn, which is why he does not remember events that happen while unsheathed Awakening requires Fuel. Normal Awakening uses Color as fuel, but Nightblood consumes Investiture (as do Returned - but at a much faster and exponential rate than a Returned) Turning Black timeline is unknown until we have more information May have been after Awakening, or may have happened when he first became supersaturated Leaks Corrupted Investiture Did not Leak until becoming supersaturated Was renamed Nightblood sometime after killing Shashara because he was black and leaked investiture Note: The corrupted investiture is not Red (which is indicative of one Shard's power changing the nature of another Shard's investiture - or - a manifestation of Investiture changing the nature of Innate Investiture (e.g. Emperor's Soul)) Nightblood pierces all three realms, and destroys things on all three realms Divine breaths cannot be used for Awakening (based on current information) but may have other effects (such as the known Healing effect) Ruin's investiture was involved - likely due to the Command used, but unconfirmed and unconfirmable until we get more information Endowment was involved (more than normal, in some way) but how/why is also unconfirmed and unconfirmable until we get more information 2
CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 31, 2024 Author Posted January 31, 2024 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Skyler Cecil Is there an Investiture cycle on Roshar? Cycling through the crem rain and flora and fauna back into the storm, or something like that. Like the water cycle. If Investiture is finite, is it recycled back into the Cosmere when Investiture like Breath or Stormlight is expended? Otherwise, wouldn't Investiture run out? Brandon Sanderson Yes, there is such a cycle. It is renewed and changed time and time again. It gets in and out of the Spiritual Realm, often with the birth of new individuals. Not to be pedantic but this doesnt say that stormlight expended as surgebinding or lost to exhaling goes back to the spiritual realm. I am open to that possibility but this seems to indicate that happens primarily with people moving back and forth through birth and death. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Nigthblood's rate of consumption is defined - the more he is used, the more he consumes, until reaching maximum he can hold. This also applies even if he is really close to being full, the time he will consume investiture is simply just short. So you would posit that wielding a full nightblood, he would still convert what he touches into black smoke, but he would not be consuming investiture from the wielder? 5 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Note: The corrupted investiture is not Red (which is indicative of one Shard's power changing the nature of another Shard's investiture - or - a manifestation of Investiture changing the nature of Innate Investiture (e.g. Emperor's Soul)) Is there consensus on this? I know there is some connection between Midnight Spores, Midnight Mother, and Nightblood - is Nightblood corrupting what he consumes into whatever Midnight Essence is, or is Midnight Essence itself a corruption? Very interesting point about it not being Red. 6 minutes ago, Treamayne said: So, there were not any actual questions, but have we clarified all points? Yes, for sure, thank you! Im not convinced this is exactly how things are working but this explanation scratches that itch for the time being haha. 1
Treamayne Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: So you would posit that wielding a full nightblood, he would still convert what he touches into black smoke, but he would not be consuming investiture from the wielder? yes, though the time to "safely" wield a food-coma Nightblood is rather small 1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Is there consensus on this? I know there is some connection between Midnight Spores, Midnight Mother, and Nightblood - is Nightblood corrupting what he consumes into whatever Midnight Essence is, or is Midnight Essence itself a corruption? Very interesting point about it not being Red. I know some have theorize that way, but I disagree. There may be a very loose (small c) connection in the Realmatics, but Midnight X (essence, aether, spore) is distinctly different and confirmed to be similar/related to each other is a way that just does not apply to consumed/correpted investiture seen here. It seems more likely that the investiture turning black has more to be with being Unsealed and Unkeyed. At least my theory is: Forcibly change a fundamental Property (like identity) and you get Red Corrupted Investiture (such as Odium changing the Fused Souls - hence red eyes) Strip one or more fundamental properties and you get black corrupted investiture (Nightblood can consume anything, and strip it down; some Unmade are black rather than red corruption; Shades seem to be Cognitive Shadows stripped of Identity and are black, not red, etc.) Spoiler WoB (Edited out Yumi portions) Quote Comatose Kind of a similar question about the Midnight Essence, now that we have seen that crop up in Tress as well as in Stormlight Archive. Is something similar happening with the Midnight Essence? We have also the nightmares, in Yumi, that appear similar, they're also mimicking things. Brandon Sanderson So, there's a couple of things getting interwoven here. The actual idea of Midnight Essence is a concept like Lightweaving that predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, that various magic systems are basically "borrowing" a law of the cosmere and creating a parallel effect from the same basis, if that makes any sense. Yumi is a little distinct from that. It's feeling similar; I would not call it true Midnight Essence. It's an awful lot more like a Lightweaving that has--because Lightweavings can have mass to them, because investiture can have mass to it--so you're looking a little bit more like... imagine a bunch of Stormlight becoming tangible, you can touch it, because of a powerful Lightweaving or something like that. Of course, these things all bleed together because I'm using the same fundamental principles to make them. But, for me, Midnight Essence has this personality that comes prefixed. What the Midnight Mother is making, what you're seeing in the Midnight Sea and things like this, you're gonna get some similar personalities to these things, and not necessarily the same with the nightmares. Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023) Edited January 31, 2024 by Treamayne SPAG 2
alder24 Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 21 minutes ago, Treamayne said: So, there were not any actual questions, but have we clarified all points? I do not agree with all your statements here but generally it is in line with my thinking. But here is me being nitpicky: 22 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Turning Black timeline is unknown until we have more information May have been after Awakening, or may have happened when he first became supersaturated Or may have been after he was first used without becoming supersaturated - I believe he turned black after Awakening, becoming a pseudo god metal (like Vivenne's blade). 24 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Leaks Corrupted Investiture Did not Leak until becoming supersaturated Disagree. Being supersaturated is only one of few reasons he leaks investiture. I believe he started leaking after he was used for the first time and consumed Breaths. Leaking in my opinion is also associated with an imperfect vessel - steel in this case - just like spikes leak investiture so do Nightblood, but it may be that the more he has the more he leaks. But we don't have much on the detailed reasons for leaking. Spoiler lucagreene18 If Szeth were to have drawn Nightblood immediately after he had consumed Rayse, would he still have drained Szeth's Stormlight? As it said he seemed like he had eaten as much as he could. Brandon Sanderson At that point, Nightblood had entered into essentially a food coma... Well, no, the food coma one came when he was drawing from the perpendicularity. I don't think he was in food coma mode at that point. I think that he could still have drawn more at that point, I'd have to go look at exactly what I wrote, if I'd put him into food coma mode or not. It is possible. This is one of the things I wanted to answer with the book. A lot of people have been theorizing, could Nightblood eat an entire Shard? And indeed, Nightblood could not eat an entire Shard. That is not within his capability. In fact, one of the reasons that he leaks Investiture is: he's too stuffed full of it. There is more Investiture in the sword Nightblood than it can actually hold, it's supersaturated. And it leaks Investiture (that it's done some weird things to). But it is constantly hungry for more and constantly leaks it, but it definitely can get full for a time, and it could not eat an entire Shard. I did see questions about that from people floating around, and it's something I'd been meaning to get to eventually. Nightblood is definitely relevant to things that are happening in the Cosmere, but it is not as simple as grabbing the sword, sticking it into a Shard, and defeating the Shard, unfortunately. Though, as you see in this book, there are reasons for a Shard to still be afraid of Nightblood. It didn't destroy Odium, but Rayse still really had a bad time. YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020) 7 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Not to be pedantic but this doesnt say that stormlight expended as surgebinding or lost to exhaling goes back to the spiritual realm. I am open to that possibility but this seems to indicate that happens primarily with people moving back and forth through birth and death. That's why I also combined it with second WoB: Quote Brandon Sanderson For instance the Stormlight is essential to the ecosystem of Roshar, it needs to be expended, it needs to get out and-- It's like evaporation, does that make sense? Argent Recycling? Not the recycling but the cycle of-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah, yeah like the cycle of water. And so just part of the way the nature of it works, it has to get out, it has to leak out, it has to run out. I mean it leaks even from spheres, right? [...] And because it's a cycle, it has to go back to the SR, where it came from. It goes in and out of the Spiritual Realm. Radiants don't breathe in Stormlight from thin air - air doesn't hold Stormlight. The same applies to Nightblood's smoke. 20 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: So you would posit that wielding a full nightblood, he would still convert what he touches into black smoke, but he would not be consuming investiture from the wielder? Generally yes, but that black smoke would not be consumed by Nightblood. 21 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Is there consensus on this? I know there is some connection between Midnight Spores, Midnight Mother, and Nightblood - is Nightblood corrupting what he consumes into whatever Midnight Essence is, or is Midnight Essence itself a corruption? Very interesting point about it not being Red. Kind of. Midnight Spores and Midnight Mother are related - both use Midnight Essence, which is something like the term Lightweaving - a general way to manifest this phenomena in Cosmere. Nightblood is something different, the blackness is just Corrupted investiture. But there is some Connection between all those things - it has to be corrupted: Spoiler Red the Windrunner (paraphrased) We have now seen Midnight Essence on Lumar and as part of the Unmade on Roshar, should we assume that all the other Unmade have connections to Odium’s other conquests like maybe Sja-anat and Ambition? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Midnight Essence is more like Lightweaving in that multiple magic systems will reach the same conclusion. When something is done to the magic to corrupt it, it becomes like Midnight Essence. So while there are similarities between the two and they work the same they may not have the same point of origin. Red the Windrunner (paraphrased) So there is no meaningful connection between Sja-anat and Ambition? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) You weren’t going to let me off the hook. You are theorizing in a very interesting direction. RAFO! Tampa Bay Comic Convention 2023 (July 28, 2023) Spoiler Diss the Chris In Yumi, the outer edge of Kilahito and the Nightmares are being described as being completely nonreflective, and they drip with a black liquid that smokes. The same description has been given to the Midnight Essence and to Nightblood. Are these linked, and indicative of some kind of warped Investiture? Brandon Sanderson They are significantly linked. (There you are; we’ll use “significantly” in that regard.) YouTube Spoiler Stream 6 (Dec. 19, 2023) 6 minutes ago, Treamayne said: It seems more likely that the investiture turning black has more to be with being Unsealed and Unkeyed. At least my theory is: Forcibly change a fundamental Property (like identity) and you get Red Corrupted Investiture (such as Odoim changing the Fused Souls - hence red eyes) Strip one or more fundamental properties and you get black corrupted investiture (Nightblood can consume anything, and strip it down; some Unmade are black rather than red corruption; Shades seem to be Cognitive Shadows stripped of Identity and are black, not red, etc.) Interesting. That might make sense because Yumi spoilers: Spoiler Nightmares are stripped of identity. I wouldn't throw out the possibility that Midnight Essence isn't also identityless, which would explain why it is so easy to Connect to it and influence it, and why it is black - thus connecting it to Nightblood and WoBs above. 2
JohnnyKaizen he/him Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 On 1/29/2024 at 11:35 AM, alder24 said: We don't know how much Breaths Shashara had when she was killed, she had at least 20000 Breaths when creating Nightblood, but considering she was killed after the Battle of the Twilight Falls, she might have spent most of her Breaths during the fight to feed Nightblood, to Awaken or to create an army of Lifeless before the battle. She probably didn't have that much Breaths when killed. We don't have any numbers on how much investiture Nightblood can hold. But why does Nightblood leak investiture? Well, why do humans leak investiture, like Stormlight, or even Breaths that deteriorate with age? Humans simply aren't a perfect vessel for investiture. A steel sword likely isn't a perfect vessel as well, thus he leaks investiture - after all hemalurgic spikes leak investiture as well. The speed of leakage is probably limited by the surface area of the blade. I was specifically referring to the rate of leakage. Why does Nightblood always seem to leak about the same amount whether they have absorbed one person (like Shasharra) or one Shard Vessel (which obviously Rayse held a vastly larger amount of investiture than Shasharra or anyone one else Nightblood has absorbed) and same with the time Dalinar opened the perpendicularity and Nightblood was exposed to limitless investiture. One would think that absorbing to the zenith of capacity would create greater leakage, but it seems as though there is some sort of gating mechanism for the leakage. I am wondering why, because that seems like a purposeful design. 1
alder24 Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 9 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said: I was specifically referring to the rate of leakage. Why does Nightblood always seem to leak about the same amount whether they have absorbed one person (like Shasharra) or one Shard Vessel (which obviously Rayse held a vastly larger amount of investiture than Shasharra or anyone one else Nightblood has absorbed) and same with the time Dalinar opened the perpendicularity and Nightblood was exposed to limitless investiture. One would think that absorbing to the zenith of capacity would create greater leakage, but it seems as though there is some sort of gating mechanism for the leakage. I am wondering why, because that seems like a purposeful design. It seems that the rate of leakage is changing depending on the consumption. Treamayne found those quotes: 4 hours ago, Treamayne said: 4 hours ago, alder24 said: Keep in mind, in Warbreaker Nightblood consumed hundreds of Breaths in the matter of minutes, he can fit whatever he ate at the Battle of Thaylen Field. We don't know how much he leaks but another factor to consider is the physical state of the investiture leaking out - it's a smoke, a gas but it behaves and is often described as liquid. He leaks liquid investiture directly from the blade, but because it's no longer under the immense pressure of all that stuffed investiture, it transforms into gaseous investiture quite fast. We also see that as Nightblood's rate of consumption increases, the ratio of liquid to gas increases as well: Hide contents Warbreaker Ch 56: Quote He ran forward and grabbed Nightblood’s hilt and pulled the sword free, leaving the sheath behind in the body. The blade sprayed a wave of black liquid as he swung it. The liquid dissolved into smoke before touching walls or floor, like water in an oven. Smoke twisted, some rising from the blade, some falling in a stream to the floor, dripping like black blood. <snip> Gasping, he threw the sword aside and fell to his knees. It skidded, tearing a rip in the floor that puffed away into smoke, but hit a wall with a pling and fell still. Smoke rose from the blade. Actively consuming = smoke + liquid dripping and evaporating Not actively consuming = just smoke OB Ch 117/118: Quote It divided the enormous thing in two, sending out an explosion of black smoke. The halves of the monster fell to the sides, crashing into the stone, then burned away, evaporating into blackness. Soldiers cursed and coughed, backing up as something resolved in the center of the tempest. A figure in the smoke, glowing white and holding a jet-black Shardblade that seemed to feed on the smoke, sucking it in, then letting it pour down beneath itself as a liquid blackness. <snip> He plowed through soldiers, men bursting into smoke, seeking that one individual. The Voidbringer turned at the last moment, dancing away from his sword. Szeth Lashed himself downward, then spun in a sweeping arc, towing black smoke—almost liquid—behind his sword as he destroyed men in a grand circle. Consuming a Thunderclast made it so almost all released investiture was liquid, but by the time the fused is blocking Nightblood with his own sheath, the smoke is only "almost liquid" 2
listerfeend Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 Guys.... So we know that Nightblood wasn't black before Awakening, that's a WoB Quote Comatose Was Nightblood black before being awakened by Shashara? Brandon Sanderson No. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) And we know that Nightblood was renamed to Nightblood following Sashara's murder. We ALSO know that Nightblood is based off of Shardblades and/or Honorblades. AND we know that Nightblood could be considered a "robot spren" Quote Boogalyhu34 Can Nightblood be considered a Splinter and does it function like a spren realmatically, are there distinct differences is what I'm asking. Brandon Sanderson Nightblood is kind of his own strange thing. He's an attempt to use one magic to replicate something in another. He's closest to a spren, but kind of like a...robot spren, for lack of better words to use. Argent When you say that Nightblood is "an attempt to use one magic to replicate something in another," do you mean life in general, or are you referring to a specific effect in a specific magic system? Brandon Sanderson There are those involved who knew that Shardblades existed before they tried the Nightblood experiment. uchoo786 So does this mean Vasher had knowledge of Shardblades before creating Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson It means what I wrote, and nothing more at this point. wickedmath Dude. That's the most tantalizing RAFO I've seen in awhile. Have other Shards made Shardblades besides Honor? Brandon Sanderson RAFO Phantine Is that why Vasher uses the word 'Investiture' instead of some personal term for it? Brandon Sanderson I could be wrong, but I think Vasher was the first one in any book I allowed to use cosmere-aware terms for speaking of things like the magics. (Investiture is one of these.) /r/books AMA 2015 (July 25, 2015) What if the REASON for his color change and the "corruption" (I suspect we need another word here, considering that red is very much the color of corrupted investiture) Quote Roger As I understand it, red is a sign of corruption in the cosmere. I just reread The Emperor's Soul, and it mentioned wisps of red smoke when Shai tests the Soulstamps. Does this mean she is corrupting Gaotona's soul? Brandon Sanderson Yes, that is what that means. Corruption doesn't have to have the negative connotation, right? Basically, it means an outside influence is changing the Spiritual nature of the soul. And, yeah, that's exactly what is happening right there. Now, I would call that a pretty good thing, but... like, all of those things, where she is playing with someone's soul, and changing it, and changing their past, and things like this. This is, by cosmere definition, corrupting someone's soul. That's expressly what it is. YouTube Livestream 10 (June 18, 2020) Quote Blightsong How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren that people would feel are corrupted. But that's corruption where the mixing of different Shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, what they're meaning is the mixing of Shards' powers. Blightsong So is there a mixing of Shards' powers happening with Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson *smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it. Blightsong Ok, uhhh, so something similar is happening with Gavilar's sphere, right? Brandon Sanderson *contemplative silence* RAFO. OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016) Anyway, that was a tangent, but what if the reason for the color change and smoke is actually because he was used to kill Shashara... I'm wondering if there was actually some kind of "bond" similar to a Luhel or Nahel bond. And that was the reason for the "corruption" that isn't actually corruption. If that were true, we could see something similar happen if, say, a Living blade were to be somehow used against its Radiant
alder24 Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 (edited) 41 minutes ago, listerfeend said: What if the REASON for his color change and the "corruption" (I suspect we need another word here, considering that red is very much the color of corrupted investiture) It's still corruption. Red isn't needed. Corrupted Awespren are black, Flamespren are blue, Painspren are green etc. Nightblood has some connection to Midnight Essence which is the result of some kind of corruption - Midnight Essence is black. We talked about a few posts back: 2 hours ago, alder24 said: 3 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Is there consensus on this? I know there is some connection between Midnight Spores, Midnight Mother, and Nightblood - is Nightblood corrupting what he consumes into whatever Midnight Essence is, or is Midnight Essence itself a corruption? Very interesting point about it not being Red. Kind of. Midnight Spores and Midnight Mother are related - both use Midnight Essence, which is something like the term Lightweaving - a general way to manifest this phenomena in Cosmere. Nightblood is something different, the blackness is just Corrupted investiture. But there is some Connection between all those things - it has to be corrupted: Hide contents Red the Windrunner (paraphrased) We have now seen Midnight Essence on Lumar and as part of the Unmade on Roshar, should we assume that all the other Unmade have connections to Odium’s other conquests like maybe Sja-anat and Ambition? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Midnight Essence is more like Lightweaving in that multiple magic systems will reach the same conclusion. When something is done to the magic to corrupt it, it becomes like Midnight Essence. So while there are similarities between the two and they work the same they may not have the same point of origin. Red the Windrunner (paraphrased) So there is no meaningful connection between Sja-anat and Ambition? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) You weren’t going to let me off the hook. You are theorizing in a very interesting direction. RAFO! Tampa Bay Comic Convention 2023 (July 28, 2023) Hide contents Diss the Chris In Yumi, the outer edge of Kilahito and the Nightmares are being described as being completely nonreflective, and they drip with a black liquid that smokes. The same description has been given to the Midnight Essence and to Nightblood. Are these linked, and indicative of some kind of warped Investiture? Brandon Sanderson They are significantly linked. (There you are; we’ll use “significantly” in that regard.) YouTube Spoiler Stream 6 (Dec. 19, 2023) 2 hours ago, Treamayne said: It seems more likely that the investiture turning black has more to be with being Unsealed and Unkeyed. At least my theory is: Forcibly change a fundamental Property (like identity) and you get Red Corrupted Investiture (such as Odoim changing the Fused Souls - hence red eyes) Strip one or more fundamental properties and you get black corrupted investiture (Nightblood can consume anything, and strip it down; some Unmade are black rather than red corruption; Shades seem to be Cognitive Shadows stripped of Identity and are black, not red, etc.) Interesting. That might make sense because Yumi spoilers: Hide contents Nightmares are stripped of identity. I wouldn't throw out the possibility that Midnight Essence isn't also identityless, which would explain why it is so easy to Connect to it and influence it, and why it is black - thus connecting it to Nightblood and WoBs above. And of course, this WoB confirmed it's corrupted, and the one you've posted implies that as well. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him. Warbreaker Annotations (April 25, 2011) 41 minutes ago, listerfeend said: Anyway, that was a tangent, but what if the reason for the color change and smoke is actually because he was used to kill Shashara... I'm wondering if there was actually some kind of "bond" similar to a Luhel or Nahel bond. And that was the reason for the "corruption" that isn't actually corruption. If that were true, we could see something similar happen if, say, a Living blade were to be somehow used against its Radiant Nightblood doesn't form such strong bonds. He doesn't form any Nahel Bond or Luhel Bond. He does form a bond, which allows him to talk to the minds of people and if he feeds on you once, this bond grows a bit - but nothing on the level you propose. Shashara creating him means basically nothing for him - Nightblood has his own Identity, his own Breaths that can't be taken away from him. We know he leaks corrupted Breaths, we know he was black during the Battle of the Twilight Falls - before he killed Shashara. I don't see any reason why a spren would behave differently after killing their own Radiant - it would be no different from Radiant being just killed. It would be mentally more traumatic but nothing on the realmatic level is going on there that would turn it black/corrupted. Spoiler Questioner I want to know if Nightblood can be killed in the same way as a spren. Brandon Sanderson Well, that's a RAFO. Nightblood does not have the same spren bond, and so the renouncing of Oaths is not going to affect him, but there are certain things that could. FanX 2018 (Sept. 7, 2018) Spoiler Argent (paraphrased) How is it that Nightblood, who is merely a near-sentient awakened object, was able to read minds, something a Shard like Ruin was unable to do? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It requires bonding (with the person whose mind is to be read) to read minds. Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 1, 2013) Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Another note here is that Nightblood can sense where Vasher is. This is because Nightblood has ingested and fed off Vasher's Breaths in the past. When he does that, it connects him to someone. It's also, by the way, one of the secrets as to why Vasher doesn't get sick when holding Nightblood, even though he's a good person. It's not simply familiarity (though that is part of it). Nightblood has a built-in test. If he feeds off you and you survive, then you become somewhat immune to his powers. Warbreaker Annotations (June 22, 2011) Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him. Warbreaker Annotations (April 25, 2011) Warbreaker ch 26: Quote The waves of men pointed toward one figure at the center. A woman, vaguely depicted by a couple of curved brushstrokes. And yet it was obvious. She stood high, as if atop a cresting wave of crashing soldiers, caught in midmotion, head flung back, her arm upraised. Holding a deep black sword that darkened the red sky around it. “The Battle of Twilight Falls,” Llarimar said quietly, standing beside him in the white hallway. “Last conflict of the Manywar.” Edited January 31, 2024 by alder24 2
Treamayne Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 (edited) 19 minutes ago, alder24 said: Warbreaker ch 26: Quote The waves of men pointed toward one figure at the center. A woman, vaguely depicted by a couple of curved brushstrokes. And yet it was obvious. She stood high, as if atop a cresting wave of crashing soldiers, caught in midmotion, head flung back, her arm upraised. Holding a deep black sword that darkened the red sky around it. “The Battle of Twilight Falls,” Llarimar said quietly, standing beside him in the white hallway. “Last conflict of the Manywar.” FYSA: Many of the "WoBs" are actually coming from the Warbreaker Annotations (which were sliced up and added to the Arcanum as Words of Brandon). If interested, you can read them free on the website. They are much easier to parse when read as-intended (and much easier to search on the Arcanum). For example, the Annotation to @alder24's quote above: Spoiler The person Lightsong sees in the abstract painting is Shashara, Denth’s sister, one of the Five Scholars and a Returned also known as Glorysinger by the Cult of the Returned. She is seen here in Lightsong’s vision as she’s drawing Nightblood at the battle of Twilight Falls. It’s the only time the sword was drawn in battle, and Vasher was horrified by the result. It’s because of her insistence on using the sword in battle, and on giving away the secret to creating more, that Vasher and she fought. He ended up killing her with Nightblood, which they’d created together during the days they were in love—he married her a short time before their falling out. That marriage ended with him slaying his own wife to keep her from creating more abominations like Nightblood and loosing them upon the world. Nightblood is part of a much larger story in this world. He’s dropped casually into this particular book, more as a side note than a real focus of what’s going on, but his own role in the world is much, much larger than his supporting part here would indicate. And even that is a small snippet for the entire Annotation for Ch 26. The eBook for Warbreaker actually comes with the annotations as part of the epub. (I had to make some changes for my sanity, whoever organized the file made some questionable choices). It's actually inspired me to edit my Elantris and Mistborn Era 1 epubs to also have the Annotations, so I can review them offline on my Kobo Forma. Edited January 31, 2024 by Treamayne Example/SPAG 2
JohnnyKaizen he/him Posted February 1, 2024 Posted February 1, 2024 (edited) 22 hours ago, alder24 said: It seems that the rate of leakage is changing depending on the consumption. Treamayne found those quotes: I definitely must have skipped over the quotes @Treamayne shared. And maybe it's just my own OCD being stubborn, but it feels like those quotes make sense in the context of Nightblood feeding off of Szeth's (or any other relatively "normal" invested person's) investiture. If feels to me that at the Battle of Thaylen Field *specifically* Nightblood should have turned into Nightflood (even if for only a short time). I understand, accept, and agree that when they're actively consuming investiture that liquid investiture pours from the blade in excess, but at the BoTF, Nightblood essentially was stuck into an ocean of investiture and absorbed more than a Shard vessel like Rayse held. Shouldn't that have blacked out Thaylen Field, even briefly? And when Rayse was stabbed, Nightblood's physical aspect was in a house..wouldn't it at least be logical that that house be filled with liquid, or even gaseous, black investiture? I may be digging where there's nothing to find, but this feels like a logical inconsistency to me, and I've come to trust Brandon doesn't leave those around for nothing, or just out of ignoring them? Edited February 1, 2024 by JohnnyKaizen 2
CtrlAltDepressed Posted February 1, 2024 Author Posted February 1, 2024 9 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said: And when Rayse was stabbed, Nightblood's physical aspect was in a house..wouldn't it at least be logical that that house be filled with liquid, or even gaseous, black investiture? I may be digging where there's nothing to find, but this feels like a logical inconsistency to me, and I've come to trust Brandon doesn't leave those around for nothing, or just out of ignoring them? Agreed. I can accept all the things said about Nightblood, but this is still an inconsistency to me. They explained above that Nightblood would have released the smoke from rayse into the spiritual realm, but that doesnt really make sense considering he ALWAYS cuts on all three realms. Just because Rayse pulled Taravangian into the spiritual realm, there was still a physical representation of Nightblood and Taravangian (proven by him feeling Szeth stab him while in the SP with odium). An explosion of black smoke / liquid investiture of that amount would have at the VERY least been something that Szeth would have noticed. Realistically that amount of investiture leaking could create a perpendicularity. We know those are not shard dependent, but investiture dependent. We see in MB 2 that Marasi is able to close a perpendicularity with a couple allomancers (which we know does not use as much investiture as other systems), so perpendicularity's cant have that much investiture compared to the amount that we have been told Nightblood contains. He has way way more than the bands, and I feel like the bands were close to perpendicularity levels of investiture. The perpendicularity point also comes into play for the 'recycling' aspect. Perpendicularity's leak investiture back into the spiritual realm, but they are still physcial embodiments of tears in the realm, where that recycling takes place (all three realms are together, easier to exchange investiture). It is interesting that Nightblood manifested as a sword in the spiritual realm. I mean, of course he does because he cuts on all three realms, but Brandon has been cagey about what he looks like in CR. It makes sense that one would be different of the three considering his unique creation, but if he looks like a sword in spiritual, why wouldnt he in cognitive? 1
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