Fyodor32768 Posted January 3 Report Share Posted January 3 There has some reasonably persuasive speculation based on published works and Stormlight 5 that Shallan is the daughter of the herald Chanarach. I won't recount them but links to the relevant threads are below. We have in the most recent Q&A the following excerpt. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/526-youtube-spoiler-stream-6/ Quote Q: "We’ve seen Shallan’s drawings appear to make people into “better versions of themselves.” But we also see her draw Yalb surviving the shipwreck, and later find out he did. Is she actually seeing the future in which she just happens to inspire people to be better? If so, this would make Wit’s warning to her in Oathbringer more concerning." A: As will all sort of future sight/foretelling in the cosmere, it is not necessarily telling the future so much as seeing possibilities. And Shallan has… we’ll get into this in Book Five. Shallan’s a little extra good at this, for Spiritual mumbo jumbo. (It’s not necessarily just Spiritual mumbo jumbo, 17th Shard.) In this case, we have a very distinct reason why this is happening with Shallan that you might be able to put together. It’s pretty obvious. But you should be able to see these things with Shallan very early in the books. As early as Words of Radiance, I was sticking in little nods to this. She is able to grab glimpses of the Spiritual Realm in ways that even other Lightweavers can’t do. Lightweaving always has a bit of this, right? And this comes back to what’s going on with the Realmatic Theory and Plato’s Theory of the Forms as kind of a foundational text that helped me develop this in my mind. You’re seeing more perfect versions of who you could be. When she’s doing a sketch, she’s sometimes sketching not who you are, but who you could be. This is the first acknowledgement I think that Shallan has abilities that go beyond what other Lightweavers can do and that it's for a "distinct reason" that we can "put together." This would seem to be a nod to the fact that Shallan is the daughter of a Herald and thus has access to the spiritual realm. We've seen other examples of this, like Ishar being sensitive to the spiritial realm and temporarily regaining sanity when oaths are sworn (same with Nale, who kind of wakes up when Lift swears her oaths). Thoughts? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyJim Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 It's possible but we don't actually know what, if anything, a herald would pass down to their offspring. It could just as easily be the result of her exposure to whatever the Unmade influence over the Davar household is. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rusty Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 (edited) I’m pretty sure that Shallan IS the herald, herself. And not just her daughter. If I had to guess, she killed her daughter and felt super bad about it. And then decided to start making all of us feel bad too by being in the books (Jk. Shallan is aiite nowadays.) -Rusty Edited January 4 by The Rusty 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marabout Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 My theory is that Shallan has a gemheart and Chana is living inside it at the moment. Furthermore, Radiant is Chana peeking out. This would explain Shallan’s enhanced abilities. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+robardin he/him Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 I'm pretty sure the "obvious reason" that we have seen her do things beyond what other Lightweavers might ever be able to do, as early as Words of Radiance, is that she's a double-bonded Lightweaver to Pattern and Testament. And WoR is when she began forming that second bond with Pattern. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 15 hours ago, Fyodor32768 said: There has some reasonably persuasive speculation based on published works and Stormlight 5 that Shallan is the daughter of the herald Chanarach. I won't recount them but links to the relevant threads are below. We have in the most recent Q&A the following excerpt. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/526-youtube-spoiler-stream-6/ This is the first acknowledgement I think that Shallan has abilities that go beyond what other Lightweavers can do and that it's for a "distinct reason" that we can "put together." This would seem to be a nod to the fact that Shallan is the daughter of a Herald and thus has access to the spiritual realm. We've seen other examples of this, like Ishar being sensitive to the spiritial realm and temporarily regaining sanity when oaths are sworn (same with Nale, who kind of wakes up when Lift swears her oaths). Thoughts? I'm gonna quote what @Duxredux wrote here: https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/174107-more-fuel-for-the-fiery-redhead-shallans-mom-sa-5-prolgue/ On 12/23/2023 at 1:12 PM, Duxredux said: Just gonna drop this here: Hide contents Questioner There's a lot of situations where people hear voices or see visions, stuff like that. What would be the effect, if somebody had something like mental condition like schizophrenia or multiple personality? Because you talk about-- Because a lot of the magic is about their will, you know? Brandon Sanderson Schizophrenia in the cosmere is going to-- So, anytime you're seeing the future, and things like that, you're kinda glimpsing into the Spiritual Realm. That's why it happens so often, because the magic systems are the way they work, are coming down from the Spiritual Realm. Schizophrenia will make you more open to that, so you are more likely to actually see the future. But you won't be able to tell it from the things your mind is making up, which is gonna be really dangerous. Questioner So, what if you had, like, one personality wanna do one thing, and another one trying to do something else, would it cancel each other out? Brandon Sanderson Not necessarily. I mean, we're going a little that direction with Shallan, anyway. You'll see. Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017) Might be that Shallan's mind and soul is more fractured than just about any other Lightweaver. In fact, the extreme cracks in her soul might be what enable multiple Nahel bonds to exist in the first place. Quote Questioner Is someone limited to how many Nahel bonds they can form, or could someone go play Pokéspren and catch them all, getting access to all Surges? Brandon Sanderson There are limits to what a soul can handle. These limits are soft caps, not hard caps. Pokéspren is theoretically possible, but there would be hoops, not just the normal "I want to bond two spren" hoop, which is already a pretty big one. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) While I wholeheartedly subscribe to the "Chana = Shallan's mother theory," this isn't very obvious for an average reader. I think it's far more likely that in this WoB Brandon was simply talking about Shallan's mental health problems and her DID, which is obvious and started to be clearly shown as early as WoR (with the creation of Veil) rather than Chana. The WoB quoted by Duxredux is confirming mental health problems allow one to peer more into SR and feel the future/present through Connections. 2 hours ago, Marabout said: My theory is that Shallan has a gemheart and Chana is living inside it at the moment. Furthermore, Radiant is Chana peeking out. This would explain Shallan’s enhanced abilities. Well, that won't work anymore. We know what's happening to Heralds trapped in the gemstone - they fade into the Beyond. RoW ch 91-93 epigraphs: Quote "And so, I’ll die. Yes, die. If you’re reading this and wondering what went wrong—why my soul evaporated soon after being claimed by the gemstone in your knife—then I name you idiot for playing with powers you only presume to understand." "The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms. Capture one of us with your knives, and you won’t be left with a spren in a jar, foolish ones. You’ll be left with a being that eventually fades away into the Beyond." "I felt it happen to Jezrien. You think you captured him, but our god is Splintered, our Oathpact severed. He faded over the weeks, and is gone now. Beyond your touch at long last." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+hwiles Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 I really enjoy this particular theory, but...looking at the problem backwards, I struggle to imagine a way in which the reveal could be made without it being awkward or distracting in story. I could totally see it being a secret-history reveal, or an Easter Egg confirmed retroactively years from now, but confirming it organically on screen in book 5 doesn't feel super likely to me in the sense that I'm not sure it would add any new depth to Shallan or her personal trials and challenges. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fyodor32768 Posted January 4 Author Report Share Posted January 4 1 hour ago, hwiles said: I really enjoy this particular theory, but...looking at the problem backwards, I struggle to imagine a way in which the reveal could be made without it being awkward or distracting in story. I could totally see it being a secret-history reveal, or an Easter Egg confirmed retroactively years from now, but confirming it organically on screen in book 5 doesn't feel super likely to me in the sense that I'm not sure it would add any new depth to Shallan or her personal trials and challenges. I think that the speculation I've seen is that Shallan goes to find Ba-Ado-Mishram to free her. This leads her back to her home or family, with the idea being that BAM was the unmade influencing her family. We possibly meet Shallan's mother who was returned to Roshar when she (mother) broke from torture. Via new memories or from Chana we find out how Shallan was created and why she was so appealing to the Spren. Her fifth truth would be her identity and/or that she's responsible for the Desolation and collapse of the Oathpact by sending her mother back to Braize to be broken. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duxredux he/him Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 (edited) 5 hours ago, hwiles said: I really enjoy this particular theory, but...looking at the problem backwards, I struggle to imagine a way in which the reveal could be made without it being awkward or distracting in story. I could totally see it being a secret-history reveal, or an Easter Egg confirmed retroactively years from now, but confirming it organically on screen in book 5 doesn't feel super likely to me in the sense that I'm not sure it would add any new depth to Shallan or her personal trials and challenges. Good points, but there's an assumption here that making Shallan the daughter of Chanarach was for Shallan's character arc. It might not be for Shallan, but for Chana in the back 5 books. I could see Brandon being able to work with Chana having to deal with an Unmade tormenting her family, going off the deep end and trying to kill Shallan, getting killed by an eleven-year old and subsequently sent to Braize before breaking and setting off the last Desolation. That could make for some pretty deep baggage for even a Herald I think, particularly if the other Heralds, particularly Ash and Taln, put together that this last Desolation was at least partially her fault. While Chana most likely won't have a book dedicated for her, we may still get viewpoints. Quote Questioner The second set of Stormlight books, [six] through ten, will that-- will those be more focused on the Heralds' point of view, is that the idea? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, so Taln and Ash, who are both Heralds, are going to be main characters, and they'll each get books dedicated to them. The characters who survive the first five will still be main characters as well, but it's gonna turn more on what happened with the Heralds and things like that. The first five are turning more on what happened with the Knights Radiant and then the last five are more what happened with the Heralds... 'Cause we'll get flashbacks to the time of the Dawnsingers and things like that. Skyward San Francisco signing (Nov. 8, 2018) Edited January 4 by Duxredux 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lego Mistborn he/him Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 Guys, this is Brandon we're talking about. We know he has hinted that Shallan is Chana's daughter, so either he is, or he wants us to think that she is so he can pull the rug out from under us with an amazing plot twist that makes perfect sense at the last moment. There is no doubt that the evidence points to Shallan Chanasdotter though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+robardin he/him Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 (edited) 11 hours ago, Lego Mistborn said: Guys, this is Brandon we're talking about. We know he has hinted that Shallan is Chana's daughter, so either he is, or he wants us to think that she is so he can pull the rug out from under us with an amazing plot twist that makes perfect sense at the last moment. There is no doubt that the evidence points to Shallan Chanasdotter though. See, I could totally believe (more than 70%) that Shallan’s mother is/was the Herald Chanarach. But I don’t think that’s necessarily the reason Shallan’s Lightweaving can do more than others’. The most notable thing about her, that we know for sure, is that she has two Nahel bonds, both to Cryptics. And the effect on her Lightweaver Surgebinding should be similar to what we see in Mistborn when an Allomancer gains a hemalurgic spike for the same metal/power, giving a constant boost factor. Yes, having a Cognitive Shadow Invested enough to be made flesh again as an ancestor has been seen to give their descendants some residual magical effect or inclination towards magic ability (e.g., the Idris royal family from Warbreaker). But that is not really making them “stronger” in what they can do with the magic. Perhaps being the daughter of a Herald - and Chana at that - is what attracted Testament to her as a child, but that’s going back another step or two in the chain. Certainly what attracted Pattern to bond her, even though she had already killed one Cryptic already, was because her lies to herself about her past and her nature were just too delicious. Hey, who knows, perhaps deep down she KNOWS her mother was Chana. Behind Formless is I Know What Mom Did Last Desolation. LOL Edited January 12 by robardin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolsnow7 Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 On 1/4/2024 at 12:38 PM, hwiles said: I really enjoy this particular theory, but...looking at the problem backwards, I struggle to imagine a way in which the reveal could be made without it being awkward or distracting in story. I could totally see it being a secret-history reveal, or an Easter Egg confirmed retroactively years from now, but confirming it organically on screen in book 5 doesn't feel super likely to me in the sense that I'm not sure it would add any new depth to Shallan or her personal trials and challenges. I cannot emphasize enough how much I agree with this. Is it still possible that this theory winds up being true? Yeah maybe, though I’m not convinced. Would I be disappointed if it is? Massive understatement. It would just be such weak writing on Brandon’s part (which is one of the main reasons, though certainly not the only one, I’m not convinced by the theory.) Anyway there were a lot of very popular theories before RoW that turned out to be total gibberish in the book, and I’m looking forward to a lot of nonsense getting deflated in 11 months. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treach Posted March 13 Report Share Posted March 13 On 1/11/2024 at 7:54 PM, Lego Mistborn said: Guys, this is Brandon we're talking about. We know he has hinted that Shallan is Chana's daughter, so either he is, or he wants us to think that she is so he can pull the rug out from under us with an amazing plot twist that makes perfect sense at the last moment. There is no doubt that the evidence points to Shallan Chanasdotter though. I'm definitely inclined to believe there is more at play than her just being her daughter. 4,500 years is a long time for 9 people to live and only have one child. Not that they couldn't have others running around, but it seems like it would come up at some point seeing as the implication is the children would have extraordinary abilities. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
operationstack Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 I know I'm hela late. But... I think he is suggesting Shallan is a sevant. He has said certain magic users are so good at it and have such a strong connection that they manifest extra powers other surge binders might not have access to. I also think that maybe what Kaladin can do with his armor (using it to protect others around him) is unique to him. I'm not saying this bc I don't believe that Chana is Shallans mother. I actually think that is indeed the case. Im just not sure that is why she can do what she does. She has lots of practice. She has been doing it to herself most of her life. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 3 hours ago, operationstack said: I think he is suggesting Shallan is a sevant. He has said certain magic users are so good at it and have such a strong connection that they manifest extra powers other surge binders might not have access to. I also think that maybe what Kaladin can do with his armor (using it to protect others around him) is unique to him. Savanthood is a bit different. You become a Savant because you were using your powers for so long that it warped your soul to match the power, which often have some very drastic consequences to your body - Kaza from OB interlude 4 or Ithi from OB ch 81 are Soulcaster Savants. Soulcaster Savants' bodies change to match the substance they're Soulcasting things into - Kaza is turning into smoke while Ithi is turning into grain. But to have those effects you have you use your powers for a long time. Both Kaladin and Shallan barely started using their powers, they aren't Savants yet. It takes years to become a Savant. But Radiant suffer less from Savanthood - they don't turn into smoke for example. Moreover Brandon is a bit careful with making people Savants left and right - the idea of Savanthood is that the power warps your soul and it has some harmful consequences, it's not just a power boost, it's something important to their story. I highly doubt he would have made both Shallan and Kaladin into Savants (which also isn't very obvious). I think Windrunners in general can lend their Shardplate to protect others, which just fit with their order. But I find it likely that all orders can do that, it depends on the level of control they have over their plates. You were talking about extra powers - that's not Savanthood, that's resonance. This can be the reason why Kaladin is able to lend his plate to others. But we know the resonance of Windrunners, it's having more squires then other Orders. Spoiler Questioner 1 Do all Soulcasters risk turning into the element or is it only those using the device? Brandon Sanderson All Soulcasters have an affinity but the ones using the device are locked down much more than the Soulcasters who are Knights Radiant. Questioner 1 So they are protected from being turned into-- Brandon Sanderson Oh no they-- I wouldn't say protected... *clarification* Protected is the wrong term but that event, the savanthood and how it affects them and things like that is much less pronounced if you are a [Knight]. Questioner 1 Or is that counteracted by the healing as well? Brandon Sanderson Healing doesn't have to do with it because-- in cosmere terms there's nothing wrong with your body, your spirit is actually drifting, and so it's not hurting you physically by what's happening with the magics. So it's not the healing but if you have an active bond with a spren it takes a little different path. Let's just say, in simple terms-- Questioner 1 You are not losing body parts to smoke. Brandon Sanderson Yes, you are not losing body parts to smoke. Questioner 1 What timeframe does it happen for the normal Soulcasters then? Brandon Sanderson For normal Soulcasters? It takes-- I mean, you've seen it happening in the books. We are talking [about] a process of years even decades, depending on the person. It happens to some-- Questioner 2 Depending on how often they Soulcast? Brandon Sanderson It depends on how often they Soulcast, and it depends on the person. Oathbringer Leeds signing (Dec. 1, 2017) Mistborn Era 2 spoiler WoB: Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision. Argent Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around. Brandon Sanderson Evgeni, So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.) And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences. That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore. So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.) Feel free to share this. Argent Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)? Brandon Sanderson I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance." The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books. Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon. Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016) Spoiler Argent There is a person on the forums who noticed that Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah seems to have a really powerful, kind of, geolocation thing going on, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on? Brandon Sanderson There is something supernatural going on. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at the scholar interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural, in the past, and some who said they definitely are. But many, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities. Argent So it's definitely tied to the Orders? Brandon Sanderson It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with Order, things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires... is abnormal for the Windrunners. Argent And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'? Brandon Sanderson Yeeeaaaah... some Orders don't have them, [that] is the difference. Argent But some have more? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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