Beyond Magic Systems

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I believe that as we progress through the Cosmere eras the magic system conversations we've all been having (the great Mistborn v Radiant thread for example) are trending towards less and less relevance. If the Cosmere related secrets projects have taught us anything, it's that magictech is democratizing power in the Cosmere in many ways. It's no longer enough to be a Radiant or an Awakened or even an Elantrian; depending on the development of the planet one stands one can acquire more than enough power or powers to stand toe to toe against any singular so-called magic system user. What matters more is the knowledge to be able to counter any displayed ability and having the right mechanism to do so. Batman beats Superman in future Cosmere nearly every time.

That's not to say some things aren't dangerous no matter how many tools one has in their trick bag. Nightblood and entities like it (I don't believe for a second that it'll be the only one, too useful), Dawnshards and Dragons, likely Full Shards are some examples. However the examples I listed were probably already beyond what one would traditionally classify as a magic system or its limits in the first place. Magictech breaks systems and makes abilities uppermost.  It allows mix and match customization and makes one take into consideration synergy of abilities.  It also makes one have to take into account the strength and elasticity of a soul. One can do nearly anything with enough BEU. Only a few entities can do nearly everything. 

Spoiler

Yumi by the end of her story is more Invested than the typical Elantrian,  way more than say TLR. Who is she beating in a fight? By contrast,  with how Invested she is how many abilities could she acquire to make her more formidable with that much raw power at her disposal? If Sigzil teaches us anything Connection is King.

Any thoughts guys?

[StanLemon]

I don't think they will fall out of relevance, just that the list of options will expand. But that expansion will be affected or even bounded by the magic systems you have.

Spoiler

For example, Hoid still going out of his way on a dangerous gambit to become an Elantrian 

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by StanLemon

[alder24]

22 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I believe that as we progress through the Cosmere eras the magic system conversations we've all been having (the great Mistborn v Radiant thread for example) are trending towards less and less relevance. If the Cosmere related secrets projects have taught us anything, it's that magictech is democratizing power in the Cosmere in many ways. It's no longer enough to be a Radiant or an Awakened or even an Elantrian; depending on the development of the planet one stands one can acquire more than enough power or powers to stand toe to toe against any singular so-called magic system user. What matters more is the knowledge to be able to counter any displayed ability and having the right mechanism to do so. Batman beats Superman in future Cosmere nearly every time.

That's not to say some things aren't dangerous no matter how many tools one has in their trick bag. Nightblood and entities like it (I don't believe for a second that it'll be the only one, too useful), Dawnshards and Dragons, likely Full Shards are some examples. However the examples I listed were probably already beyond what one would traditionally classify as a magic system or its limits in the first place. Magictech breaks systems and makes abilities uppermost.  It allows mix and match customization and makes one take into consideration synergy of abilities.  It also makes one have to take into account the strength and elasticity of a soul. One can do nearly anything with enough BEU. Only a few entities can do nearly everything. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Yumi by the end of her story is more Invested than the typical Elantrian,  way more than say TLR. Who is she beating in a fight? By contrast,  with how Invested she is how many abilities could she acquire to make her more formidable with that much raw power at her disposal? If Sigzil teaches us anything Connection is King.

Any thoughts guys?

I agree. While the magictech won't replace invested arts, they will definitely level the fighting plane and provide tools for an average Doug to counter Radiants, Mistborns and other invested individuals. You don't need to win a lottery of genetics to be a Feruchemist anymore, you just need to buy a proper medallion. Awakened tools are becoming commercially available, fabrials will be more common and versatile. And the capabilities of such magictech are quite large - just remember Kelsier who used the orb that allowed him to Ascend to Preservation. 

The magictech is certainly more restrictive in what it can achieve, and in many cases you need some external source of power, so having access to classical invested arts will not become obsolete - it will still be more desirable to be a Feruchemist than just have some medallions, or to be a Radiant than just use some fabrials. Moreover the invested arts aren't fully explored yet - there is still so much more to discover about them, that the possibilities they provide will expand in the future alongside the development of magictech.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I think the most useful theoretical magictech device would be a machine or object that changes Connection at will. If you are connected to the Cosmere magic you're trying to use you tend to get more bang for your buck than if you get a device that you just happened to make work. A shardblade in the hands of a Rosharan is going to work way better than one in the hands of someone from Taldain even if they could get the spren to work with him. That way someone could do what Hoid does way easier.  I can imagine someone building a set with a template corresponding to a world,  either to blend in with the local populace or to counter the local powerset. I can imagine someone with multiple rings or bracers or whatever,  and they can be a Rosharan for one day, a Scadrian the next so long as the power lasts. Shai already proves something like that can be done.  One thing that is probably for sure, Kelsier will definitely be a Mistborn again. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Bigmikey357

[bmcclure7]

7 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I believe that as we progress through the Cosmere eras the magic system conversations we've all been having (the great Mistborn v Radiant thread for example) are trending towards less and less relevance. If the Cosmere related secrets projects have taught us anything, it's that magictech is democratizing power in the Cosmere in many ways. It's no longer enough to be a Radiant or an Awakened or even an Elantrian; depending on the development of the planet one stands one can acquire more than enough power or powers to stand toe to toe against any singular so-called magic system user. What matters more is the knowledge to be able to counter any displayed ability and having the right mechanism to do so. Batman beats Superman in future Cosmere nearly every time.

That's not to say some things aren't dangerous no matter how many tools one has in their trick bag. Nightblood and entities like it (I don't believe for a second that it'll be the only one, too useful), Dawnshards and Dragons, likely Full Shards are some examples. However the examples I listed were probably already beyond what one would traditionally classify as a magic system or its limits in the first place. Magictech breaks systems and makes abilities uppermost.  It allows mix and match customization and makes one take into consideration synergy of abilities.  It also makes one have to take into account the strength and elasticity of a soul. One can do nearly anything with enough BEU. Only a few entities can do nearly everything. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Yumi by the end of her story is more Invested than the typical Elantrian,  way more than say TLR. Who is she beating in a fight? By contrast,  with how Invested she is how many abilities could she acquire to make her more formidable with that much raw power at her disposal? If Sigzil teaches us anything Connection is King.

Any thoughts guys?

Disagree while it true that magic tec will raise up the comon man it will also make magic users stronger. 

[Sir Squeekins he/him]

9 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Disagree while it true that magic tec will raise up the comon man it will also make magic users stronger. 

Sure, but what will "magic users" even mean at that point? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the future I suspect that having multiple types of abilities/magic systems will become more standard than having a single one. (Except for cases like the Radiants being stuck on Roshar, but that could change.)

[bmcclure7]

38 minutes ago, Sir Squeekins said:

Sure, but what will "magic users" even mean at that point? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the future I suspect that having multiple types of abilities/magic systems will become more standard than having a single one. (Except for cases like the Radiants being stuck on Roshar, but that could change.)

Doesn't seem that way from what we have seen ones above, and the sorcereress seem to only use sels magic system.  

But then again the dragons do seem to use breath so maybe.

I think that connection will make it difficult to actually combine powers for most people. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Sir Squeekins he/him]

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I think that connection will make it difficult to actually combine powers for most people. 

You're right, I didn't think about that aspect of it

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, Sir Squeekins said:

You're right, I didn't think about that aspect of it

There are connection hacks that I suspect our main characters will uses but main character are usually suposed to be special exceptions,they almost always have more access to magic then average person, like vin being a mistborn or wax a twin born. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 10/20/2023 at 5:14 AM, bmcclure7 said:

Doesn't seem that way from what we have seen ones above, and the sorcereress seem to only use sels magic system.  

But then again the dragons do seem to use breath so maybe.

I think that connection will make it difficult to actually combine powers for most people. 

Didn't she Awaken two-thousand bronze soldiers? The way Hoid mentions it in the story makes it sound like it was done with actual Breath rather than a hack of AonDor.

Plus, she's using the Midnight spores to create and control many monstrous creatures.

[bmcclure7]

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Didn't she Awaken two-thousand bronze soldiers? The way Hoid mentions it in the story makes it sound like it was done with actual Breath rather than a hack of AonDor.

Plus, she's using the Midnight spores to create and control many monstrous creatures.

1. I think your confused she is never seen using breath. The soldier were made using AonDor.

2.Any one can use a aether spore they are probably a exception to the rule, given they are need for space travel. 

3. The sorcereress her self is not a typical person.  Even among magic uses she seems pretty exceptional the book compares treats her on the same level as hoid and the dragons. 

 

4. That very book shows just how hard it is to use a foriegn magic system.  Even hoid struggles so times. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

43 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. I think your confused she is never seen using breath. The soldier were made using AonDor.

That has never been stated in the book. Plus, Hoid says that she Breathed life into them and gave them Commands. That's Awakening's revenue, and while AonDor should be able to replicate its effects, I find it more likely that she just traded for them.

47 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.Any one can use a aether spore they are probably a exception to the rule, given they are need for space travel. 

Okay, true, but it is an example of someone using more than one magic system, even if it's relatively easy to access.

47 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3. The sorcereress her self is not a typical person.  Even among magic uses she seems pretty exceptional the book compares treats her on the same level as hoid and the dragons. 

Yes, this is true. My point is just that she is a person who used multiple magic systems, not that it was necessarily common.

49 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. That very book shows just how hard it is to use a foriegn magic system.  Even hoid struggles so times. 

How so? I don't recall that. In fact, the way AonDor worked in that book it seemed like a hack had been discovered that made it way easier.

[bmcclure7]

59 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

That has never been stated in the book. Plus, Hoid says that she Breathed life into them and gave them Commands. That's Awakening's revenue, and while AonDor should be able to replicate its effects, I find it more likely that she just traded for them.

Okay, true, but it is an example of someone using more than one magic system, even if it's relatively easy to access.

Yes, this is true. My point is just that she is a person who used multiple magic systems, not that it was necessarily common.

How so? I don't recall that. In fact, the way AonDor worked in that book it seemed like a hack had been discovered that made it way easier.

1. Yes but my point wasn't that no one would use multiple systems (  In fact I did specifically mention I thought that our main characters would probably use hacks to do it) but that it wouldn't be common place most people wouldn't have the necessary hackes.

2. Did you read the book?  The whole conflict started because oil couldn't use his hacks to become an elantrian.   Hence his need for workaround. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. Yes but my point wasn't that no one would use multiple systems (  In fact I did specifically mention I thought that our main characters would probably use hacks to do it) but that it wouldn't be common place most people wouldn't have the necessary hackes.

Alright, makes sense to me.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. Did you read the book?  The whole conflict started because oil couldn't use his hacks to become an elantrian.   Hence his need for workaround. 

Yes, I did. Some magic systems are hard to get into, AonDor being one of them. But not all systems are difficult to access, such as Awakening, Lumar Spores, Medallion Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy. This means that there are going to probably be more people who use those magic systems in conjunction with other systems.