Frustration Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 So there have been many theories about what exactly the Loophole in the contract is, with many revolving around who Odium chooses as champion. I believe this is wrong, as Taravangian doesn't want the contest to occur, he doesn't want to win it, he wants out of the agreement. I therefore propose this solution to Taravangian problems: Kill Dalinar and the Stormfather before the contest occurs. Think about it with those two dead who does Odium have an agreement with? And even if it still bound him Dalinar as a representative of Honor has to send a champion, with him dead he can't name one, placing him in violation of the contract and freeing Odium. Of course I could be wrong so what do you think? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeomanoftheBowman Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 (edited) I think that’s a reasonable theory, but didn’t Dalinar already appoint himself as champion? If he was killed then Taravangian wouldn’t be exploiting a loophole, but just winning the contest. Edited October 6 by YeomanoftheBowman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OokIa the Believer Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 2 hours ago, Frustration said: So there have been many theories about what exactly the Loophole in the contract is, with many revolving around who Odium chooses as champion. I believe this is wrong, as Taravangian doesn't want the contest to occur, he doesn't want to win it, he wants out of the agreement. I therefore propose this solution to Taravangian problems: Kill Dalinar and the Stormfather before the contest occurs. Think about it with those two dead who does Odium have an agreement with? And even if it still bound him Dalinar as a representative of Honor has to send a champion, with him dead he can't name one, placing him in violation of the contract and freeing Odium. Of course I could be wrong so what do you think? I think that is a very potential idea. 2 hours ago, YeomanoftheBowman said: I think that’s a reasonable theory, but didn’t Dalinar already appoint himself as champion? If he was killed then Taravangian wouldn’t be exploiting a loophole, but just winning the contest. I don’t think that will count because Dalinar can still change who the champion is. He isn’t locked into a decision until it is actuall time. But I think that this idea could be true. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 9 hours ago, Frustration said: So there have been many theories about what exactly the Loophole in the contract is, with many revolving around who Odium chooses as champion. I believe this is wrong, as Taravangian doesn't want the contest to occur, he doesn't want to win it, he wants out of the agreement. I therefore propose this solution to Taravangian problems: Kill Dalinar and the Stormfather before the contest occurs. Think about it with those two dead who does Odium have an agreement with? And even if it still bound him Dalinar as a representative of Honor has to send a champion, with him dead he can't name one, placing him in violation of the contract and freeing Odium. Of course I could be wrong so what do you think? Yes, I thought about it a lot too. The most logical thing for Odium to do is to either force Dalinar to break the Oath (like making someone intervene in the duel), or nullify the contract before the contest happens. That's a very good and safe way to back off (and fits with my theory of permanent weeping and flooding of Kharbranth). RoW ch 112: Quote “Basically?” Dalinar pressed. “What happens, Odium, if you break your word.” “Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void." [...] “I am no fool, and you are a man of honor. We will both approach this contest in good faith, Dalinar." Well, Taravangian certainly didn't approach this contest in good faith, so we can expect a move like this to happen - but Dalinar and the Coalition most likely won't see this coming. 8 hours ago, YeomanoftheBowman said: I think that’s a reasonable theory, but didn’t Dalinar already appoint himself as champion? If he was killed then Taravangian wouldn’t be exploiting a loophole, but just winning the contest. No, the duel has to happen after 10 days on top of Urithiru between willing champions. If Odium kills Dalinar before that, that's not the duel and the duel now can't happen, not because that Dalinar as his champion is dead, but because Dalinar as the other side of the agreement is dead (with Stormfather). Basically nobody with whom Odium made a deal is alive anymore, so the contract is void (or because no champion shows up as dead Dalinar can't choose anyone). RoW ch 112: Quote "Final terms are these: A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces." 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Letryx13 Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 13 hours ago, Frustration said: So there have been many theories about what exactly the Loophole in the contract is, with many revolving around who Odium chooses as champion. I believe this is wrong, as Taravangian doesn't want the contest to occur, he doesn't want to win it, he wants out of the agreement. I therefore propose this solution to Taravangian problems: Kill Dalinar and the Stormfather before the contest occurs. Think about it with those two dead who does Odium have an agreement with? And even if it still bound him Dalinar as a representative of Honor has to send a champion, with him dead he can't name one, placing him in violation of the contract and freeing Odium. Of course I could be wrong so what do you think? The problem is that the agreement requires a champion to be allowed to meet at the top of Uritheru, without either side interfering. If Todium attempts to prevent that from happening, and killing Dalinar would do so, wouldn't that be interfering? I agree that Taravangian wants out of the agreement altogether, but I don't think killing Dalinar does it. I think he wants to try and manipulate Dalinar into choosing to break his end of the deal. And I agree that perhaps the best way (in Taravangian's mind) isn't with the choice of champion, but some other indirect way. Though how, I'm not sure. 10 hours ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said: I don’t think that will count because Dalinar can still change who the champion is. He isn’t locked into a decision until it is actuall time. Agreed. The contest requires them to send a champion, but there's nothing that prevents them from choosing a different one if something happens to the first choice. And technically, both Dalinar and Odium have stated their intended champions, ironically both planning on choosing Dalinar, but that's obviously changed for Odium now. So if that would have invalidated Dalinar, it would have invalidated Odium as well. I'm not sure how Taravangian is planning to manipulate Dalinar, but if I had to guess, I'd say it relates to their conversation in RoW after Taravangian was taken prisoner. He'll try and use Dalinar's stubbornness to his advantage, and make him continue on a path that leads to him breaking the deal without realizing it. Not sure how, but that's what I think he's planning. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted October 6 Author Report Share Posted October 6 13 minutes ago, Letryx13 said: The problem is that the agreement requires a champion to be allowed to meet at the top of Uritheru, without either side interfering. If Todium attempts to prevent that from happening, and killing Dalinar would do so, wouldn't that be interfering? I wouldn't call that interfering as Dalinar hasn't locked his champion in yet. I'd have to look at the specific wording on that but I don't think that's an issue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Letryx13 Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 17 minutes ago, Frustration said: I wouldn't call that interfering as Dalinar hasn't locked his champion in yet. I'd have to look at the specific wording on that but I don't think that's an issue. If that's the case, then I'd argue that as long as Dalinar chooses another champion before dying, there's no broken agreement. I still think it would be interfering, but Todium would have to make certain that Dalinar couldn't choose a champion, in order for that to work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 13 minutes ago, Letryx13 said: I still think it would be interfering, but Todium would have to make certain that Dalinar couldn't choose a champion, in order for that to work. Keep in mind perception is still a factor. If Odium believes what he's doing doesn't break the terms, he might get away with it. RoW ch 116: Quote “Wit says the enemy can’t violate our agreement, and isn’t likely to try to misinterpret it—not intentionally." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyKaizen Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 (edited) Quoted from @alder24 Spoiler "Final terms are these: A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces." Soooo, something I hadn't realized until today is "otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces." If TOdium took someone like Moash (but honestly probably not him if he's blind but who knows, the point stands) and has him walk all the way up to the top of Urithiru and he provokes members of Bridge 4 along the way..or Navani..or anyone and they so much as punch him...is the contract void? Because I'm pretty sure it is. If TOdium picks anyone who any number of people in the Alliance hate..then this contract no longer rests on two champions..but the restraint of every single person who has a grudge against TOdium's chosen champion, on Dalinar's side? And if any of them harm the champion in any way, then the contract is void. I don't know about ya'll, but that feels like a very Taravangian move to me. Edited October 6 by JohnnyKaizen spellcheck 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Letryx13 Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 32 minutes ago, alder24 said: Keep in mind perception is still a factor. If Odium believes what he's doing doesn't break the terms, he might get away with it. RoW ch 116: That's the biggest variable in this whole situation. How literally someone might interpret the words of an agreement. And I think that's Sanderson's best asset in writing something like this. There's endless nuance in looking at a person's point of view. Just now, JohnnyKaizen said: Quoted from @alder24 Reveal hidden contents "Final terms are these: A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces." Soooo, something I hadn't realized until today is "otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces." If TOdium took someone like Moash (but honestly probably not him if he's blind but who knows, the point stands) and has him walk all the way up to the top of Urithiru and he provokes members of Bridge 4 along the way..or Navani..or anyone and they so much as punch him...is the contract void? Because I'm pretty sure it is. If TOdium picks anyone who any number of people in the Allience hate..then this contract no longer rests on two champions..but the restraint of every single person who has a grudge against TOdium's choosen champion, on Dalinar's side? And if any of them harm the champion in any way, then the contract is void. I don't know about ya'll, but that feels like a very Taravangian move to me. I had that idea too, and it doesn't seem all that unlikely. But it also feels to obvious for Taravangian. He seemed to think his method was subtle. Baiting someone into throwing a punch, which is basically what this is, seems too simple. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyKaizen Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 Just now, Letryx13 said: I had that idea too, and it doesn't seem all that unlikely. But it also feels to obvious for Taravangian. He seemed to think his method was subtle. Baiting someone into throwing a punch, which is basically what this is, seems too simple. I get that, but he wants out of this contract...ANNNND...it's just the sort of thing that will piss off Dalinar to no end. It would also force Dalinar back to the negotiating table where he can "prove" how much smarter he is than everyone. I could be wrong, but that feels very Taravangian to me...that he'd be looking for the shortest line to showing off his big brain energy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 1 minute ago, JohnnyKaizen said: If TOdium took someone like Moash (but honestly probably not him if he's blind but who knows, the point stands) and has him walk all the way up to the top of Urithiru and he provokes members of Bridge 4 along the way..or Navani..or anyone and they so much as punch him...is the contract void? Because I'm pretty sure it is. If TOdium picks anyone who any number of people in the Allience hate..then this contract no longer rests on two champions..but the restraint of every single person who has a grudge against TOdium's choosen champion, on Dalinar's side? And if any of them harm the champion in any way, then the contract is void. I don't know about ya'll, but that feels like a very Taravangian move to me. I thought almost the same, but about Gavinor jumping in to stab Marsh. I would say that If Odium's champion provoked somebody and got hit as a consequence, then he got what he asked for and the contract is still valid (or worse, because he started it, it would be considered as Odium breaking the terms). But that's open to interpretation honestly. What would be a Taravangian move is to send Marsh without him doing any provocation, but just him being voidishly him, which makes Gavinor attack him to avenge his father's death. Odium could theoretically riot Gavinor's hatred in some indirect way, but Gavinor already wants to kill Moash. RoW ch 16: Quote “If I have a sword,” Gav said, “nobody will be able to hurt me. I’ll be able to find the man who killed my father. And I could kill him.” 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyKaizen Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 1 minute ago, alder24 said: I thought almost the same, but about Gavinor jumping in to stab Marsh. I would say that If Odium's champion provoked somebody and got hit as a consequence, then he got what he asked for and the contract is still valid (or worse, because he started it, it would be considered as Odium breaking the terms). But that's open to interpretation honestly. What would be a Taravangian move is to send Marsh without him doing any provocation, but just him being voidishly him, which makes Gavinor attack him to avenge his father's death. Odium could theoretically riot Gavinor's hatred in some indirect way, but Gavinor already wants to kill Moash. RoW ch 16: I can say this with certainty, Taravangian has considered all of those angles, because obviously Brandon has. I dunno. I think most of the ideas in this thread are valid. And there is a big part of me that expects Brandon to pull some kind of amazing voidlight rabbit out of a hat we didn't even consider, so idk? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 6 minutes ago, alder24 said: I thought almost the same, but about Gavinor jumping in to stab Marsh. I would say that If Odium's champion provoked somebody and got hit as a consequence, then he got what he asked for and the contract is still valid (or worse, because he started it, it would be considered as Odium breaking the terms). But that's open to interpretation honestly. What would be a Taravangian move is to send Marsh without him doing any provocation, but just him being voidishly him, which makes Gavinor attack him to avenge his father's death. Odium could theoretically riot Gavinor's hatred in some indirect way, but Gavinor already wants to kill Moash. RoW ch 16: If you do that, take it up to eleven. Your champion walks up into Urithiru and butchers, eats and kills a baby on each floor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Letryx13 Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: If you do that, take it up to eleven. Your champion walks up into Urithiru and butchers, eats and kills a baby on each floor. That's part of what makes me think this idea wouldn't work. If the "champion" is provoking people in Uritheru, then Odium isn't sending a champion, he's sending someone to cause havoc. It's not the same thing. It could be different if just by walking by the champion provoked someone, but I don't think it would work if Odium's "champion" went out of their way to pick a fight. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 16 hours ago, Frustration said: I therefore propose this solution to Taravangian problems: Kill Dalinar and the Stormfather before the contest occurs. If he does that he dooms his own troops. Without the Highstorm the Singers are unable to take new forms, so the species will die out. And we do not know whom the contract is with: Dalinar or Honor's heir. One could argue that in case of his death the other Bondsmith would ingerit the contract, so Navani would nominate a champion. 40 minutes ago, Letryx13 said: That's part of what makes me think this idea wouldn't work. If the "champion" is provoking people in Uritheru, then Odium isn't sending a champion, he's sending someone to cause havoc. It's not the same thing. It could be different if just by walking by the champion provoked someone, but I don't think it would work if Odium's "champion" went out of their way to pick a fight. The contract does not prohibit that, though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted October 6 Author Report Share Posted October 6 18 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: If he does that he dooms his own troops. Without the Highstorm the Singers are unable to take new forms, so the species will die out. He was willing to sacrifice the entire world to save one city, why not one world to save the Cosmere? 21 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: And we do not know whom the contract is with: Dalinar or Honor's heir. One could argue that in case of his death the other Bondsmith would ingerit the contract, so Navani would nominate a champion. Honor's heir is the Stormfather which is why I say he needs to kill both of them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 29 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: If he does that he dooms his own troops. Without the Highstorm the Singers are unable to take new forms, so the species will die out. They can likely take forms in the Everstorm - Venli took her Envoyform in the Everstorm. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Letryx13 Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 1 hour ago, Oltux72 said: The contract does not prohibit that, though. The contract says he has to send a champion. If Taravangian is sending someone to provoke a riot, then he's not sending a champion for a duel. He's provoking a riot. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: He was willing to sacrifice the entire world to save one city, why not one world to save the Cosmere? Honor's heir is the Stormfather which is why I say he needs to kill both of them. He could probably pull off getting one of his subordinates to kill Dalinar, but Odium is likely the only one powerful enough to kill the StormFather, not counting Cultivation. The amount of anti stormlight needed for that would likely be massive. And Odium can't kill anyone unless he's freed from Honor's restrictions. Maybe one of the Unmade could do it, but I doubt it. And this circles back to the idea of whether or not Taravangian can ease the restrictions on himself, but he's not supposed to harm Kharbranth, otherwise he's violating another agreement. So sacrificing Roshar is also probably out of the question. 1 hour ago, Oltux72 said: And we do not know whom the contract is with: Dalinar or Honor's heir. One could argue that in case of his death the other Bondsmith would ingerit the contract, so Navani would nominate a champion. He made the contract with Dalinar because Dalinar represents honor. Odium specifically stated that when he said that Dalinar could ease the restrictions on him. What it is exactly that makes Dalinar the representative of Honor is a little more nuanced. Whether it's being the leader of the Radiants, a BondSmith, the StormFather's BondSmith specifically, we do not know. But it is likely some combination of three. So I agree that it is entirely possible someone else could choose a champion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 1 hour ago, Letryx13 said: He could probably pull off getting one of his subordinates to kill Dalinar, but Odium is likely the only one powerful enough to kill the StormFather He doesn't need to kill Stormfather, he just needs to deadeye him, and this can be done through Dalinar - like trying to Unmake him or something, forcing one of them to break the bond. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMac716 Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 Something to consider, Taravangian has found a loophole on screen during his math testing in Oathbringer. Realizes he can't be deemed too smart to be dangerous if he simply doesn't answer the questions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Letryx13 Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 1 hour ago, alder24 said: He doesn't need to kill Stormfather, he just needs to deadeye him, and this can be done through Dalinar - like trying to Unmake him or something, forcing one of them to break the bond. That could be one way to do it, by manipulating Dalinar. Which would cause indirect damage. I was thinking direct destruction of the StormFather or splintering him. Although, how he could pull that one off is beyond me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OokIa the Believer Posted October 7 Report Share Posted October 7 6 hours ago, Letryx13 said: That could be one way to do it, by manipulating Dalinar. Which would cause indirect damage. I was thinking direct destruction of the StormFather or splintering him. Although, how he could pull that one off is beyond me. I think that is well in Odiums power to do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted October 7 Report Share Posted October 7 5 hours ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said: I think that is well in Odiums power to do. He has the power and the knowledge, but he can't do that directly - Honor's restrictions prevent him from acting like that. He even said that he has to be freed of those restrictions first so he can destroy Splinters of Honor. RoW ch 112: Quote You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. OB ch 57: Quote And what are the consequences of my releasing you?” “Well, first I’d see to Cultivation’s death. There would be … other consequences, as you call them, as well.” [...] “And you can’t just … leave?” Dalinar asked. “Without killing anyone?” [...] “A man cannot serve two gods at once, Dalinar,” Odium said. “And so, I cannot leave her behind. In fact, I cannot leave behind the Splinters of Honor, as I once thought I could. I can already see that going wrong. Once you release me, my transformation of this realm will be substantial.” If he could kill Splinters of Honor directly just like that, he would have done it already. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Letryx13 Posted October 7 Report Share Posted October 7 (edited) 7 hours ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said: I think that is well in Odiums power to do. Sorry, I didn't phrase that well. I agree completely that Odium has the power to destroy or splinter the StormFather. I meant I don't know how he'd manipulate Dalinar into killing the StormFather. He'd have to get Dalinar to choose to end being a Radiant, but even beyond not wanting to betray his oaths, Dalinar likely suspects that turning the StormFather into a dead eye would be disastrous for Roshar. I just can't see him doing it. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: If he could kill Splinters of Honor directly just like that, he would have done it already. Agreed. Edited October 7 by Letryx13 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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