Ethics of Koloss Spikes

[Trusk'our he/him]

I was recently surfing the Guilds and clans forum when I stumbled upon the Koloss are people too foundation. A question was raised as to whether the Koloss' spikes should be confiscated so as to prevent any more people from being transformed into Koloss.

Anyway, it got me thinking and I wondered what people's opinions were on the matter. So let's say you are an Elendel citizen that has heard of Koloss and how they are created. What would you do in such a situation?

PLEASE don't devolve into fighting if you discuss your opinion; we just want to understand what others' thoughts are on the topic, that's all.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

I think I'd be somewhat creeped out by the whole 'be stabbed by some spikes and turn into a big blue guy' but otherwise I wouldn't really care. The Koloss in Era 2 don't seem to do much or wander outside of their tribes, Koloss-blooded excluded.

I would just be distant and unconcerned about the Koloss unless they all decided to revert back to mindless savagery. Then I'd be terrified.

[Treamayne]

None of the above. Koloss should be allowed to make and use spikes only from voluneers (either to be spiked, say before death, or to receive spikes). Reuse of pre-existing spikes are acceptable, since there's no undoing that damage - but any future spikes is what should be regulated.

Possibly allow death row inmates to also volunteer (as an alternative to the Firing Squad).

[Argenti he/him]

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

None of the above. Koloss should be allowed to make and use spikes only from voluneers (either to be spiked, say before death, or to receive spikes). Reuse of pre-existing spikes are acceptable, since there's no undoing that damage - but any future spikes is what should be regulated.

Possibly allow death row inmates to also volunteer (as an alternative to the Firing Squad).

Yeah this is the best way to do it, sure, spikes are nasty, but if people do it willingly thats up to them.

 

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I was recently surfing the Guilds and clans forum when I stumbled upon the Koloss are people too foundation. A question was raised as to whether the Koloss' spikes should be confiscated so as to prevent any more people from being transformed into Koloss.

Anyway, it got me thinking and I wondered what people's opinions were on the matter. So let's say you are an Elendel citizen that has heard of Koloss and how they are created. What would you do in such a situation?

PLEASE don't devolve into fighting if you discuss your opinion; we just want to understand what others' thoughts are on the topic, that's all.

What are you talking about? Koloss are reusing old spikes, there is no creation of new spikes happening right now, and Harmony is fine with them reusing them - there is no problem of Koloss making new spikes right now, nor forcibly changing people into new Koloss, so there is no point for this poll. Regular people aren't accepted into Koloss ranks unless they prove themself, Kolossblooded have to decide on their own to stay and become Koloss, they aren't forced to do that. 

If you're asking what to do about old, reused Koloss spikes, then the answer is leave them alone, as this is their "property", given to them by the god himself, and if people agree to this treatment, then there is no problem. As far as I know, Hemalurgy isn't outlawed, and Koloss live outside of the Basin, not under Elendel's jurisdiction.

[Trusk'our he/him]

52 minutes ago, alder24 said:

What are you talking about? Koloss are reusing old spikes, there is no creation of new spikes happening right now, and Harmony is fine with them reusing them - there is no problem of Koloss making new spikes right now, nor forcibly changing people into new Koloss, so there is no point for this poll.

Okay.

[alder24]

50 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Okay.

No, seriously, I'm confused. Is this about creating new spikes or reusing old ones? The former isn't happening so I cannot vote, but the latter is.

[Trusk'our he/him]

23 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, seriously, I'm confused. Is this about creating new spikes or reusing old ones? The former isn't happening so I cannot vote, but the latter is.

I meant mostly that old spikes were being reused to create new Koloss. 

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Trusk'our said:

I meant mostly that old spikes were being reused to create new Koloss. 

Then my opinion is that it's none of their business.

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Then my opinion is that it's none of their business.

Alright, sound pretty reasonable.

(Sorry for the confusion earlier)

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Only if they forcefully used spikes on unwilling participants should there be any talk of confiscation.

Though I don't think that's happening right now anyway. Otherwise, leave them alone. And if people want to go get spiked and turn Koloss, more power to them I suppose! 

[Duxredux he/him]

Related ethics question to confiscation. Hypothetically if you did have a Koloss group that was expanding their numbers by forcibly creating new spikes and Koloss, how exactly would you recommend that Elendel conducts this audit and confiscation? Such a policy would by necessity have enforcement procedures.

To my view the ethics of this question should be separated into different categories.

1. Legal consequences of Hemalurgically spiking an attribute out of person without their consent. This can be separated from straight murder, but those often go together.

2. Legal consequences of transforming another person Hemalurgically without their consent. Severity based on the effect on the victim and reversability, e.g. giving someone A-Pewter vs turning them into a Koloss vs turning them into a chimera.

3. Determining culpability for crimes committed when reduced cognitive function is confirmed and the possibility exists for a third parry to have been in control of the perpetrator(s).

As an example, I knew a guy in his twenties, mentally handicapped, and around 6' 6" and fairly strong. The neighborhood kids talked him into going into the local bakery and stealing the cash register. I was walking with a couple of friends and one of my friends talked him into taking the cash register back. As far as I know, no charges were pressed so I don't know how a judge or police officer would have handled that, but it serves as a possible real world example of what we're discussing. Particularly if strength enhancement and mental handicap was offered as elective surgery.

Control of Hemalurgy might be a hot topic in Era 3 and 4, so discussion of ethics can include more than just the current situation seen in Era 2. Do you put safe guards up in the event a group of Soothers comes and tries to rob a bank with a group of Koloss they commandeered? Do you hand out aluminum hats or coats to Koloss and remove one of the better ways to non-lethally stop a Koloss? I don't know the answers, but the questions are far deeper than just cultural preservation of Koloss.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Duxredux
added thought

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

On 9/26/2023 at 0:39 PM, Duxredux said:

Related ethics question to confiscation. Hypothetically if you did have a Koloss group that was expanding their numbers by forcibly creating new spikes and Koloss, how exactly would you recommend that Elendel conducts this audit and confiscation? Such a policy would by necessity have enforcement procedures.

To my view the ethics of this question should be separated into different categories.

1. Legal consequences of Hemalurgically spiking an attribute out of person without their consent. This can be separated from straight murder, but those often go together.

2. Legal consequences of transforming another person Hemalurgically without their consent. Severity based on the effect on the victim and reversability, e.g. giving someone A-Pewter vs turning them into a Koloss vs turning them into a chimera.

3. Determining culpability for crimes committed when reduced cognitive function is confirmed and the possibility exists for a third parry to have been in control of the perpetrator(s).

As an example, I knew a guy in his twenties, mentally handicapped, and around 6' 6" and fairly strong. The neighborhood kids talked him into going into the local bakery and stealing the cash register. I was walking with a couple of friends and one of my friends talked him into taking the cash register back. As far as I know, no charges were pressed so I don't know how a judge or police officer would have handled that, but it serves as a possible real world example of what we're discussing. Particularly if strength enhancement and mental handicap was offered as elective surgery.

Control of Hemalurgy might be a hot topic in Era 3 and 4, so discussion of ethics can include more than just the current situation seen in Era 2. Do you put safe guards up in the event a group of Soothers comes and tries to rob a bank with a group of Koloss they commandeered? Do you hand out aluminum hats or coats to Koloss and remove one of the better ways to non-lethally stop a Koloss? I don't know the answers, but the questions are far deeper than just cultural preservation of Koloss.

This might sound horrible, but I say if you are guilty of misusing hemalurgy your punishment should fit the crime. You get spiked appropriately and that spike can be used to better humanity... 

Okay maybe that sounds darker than I want. Let me try to leave more of an example. 

If there is no death penalty: 

Murder gets life in prison

Muder for hemalurgy gets life in prison plus they get to spike out your innate investiture and you can spend life without a soul in prison.