Why isn't Rithmatist Cosmere?

[TheFrugalWizard]

I am just curious about the Rithmatist's place in Brandon's works.

[Aeoryi]

I would say it is because it doesn't fit into the greater Cosmere image. The shards, investiture- all that.

Plus, it takes place on earth, which is not in the Cosmere. That would be the greatest reason why in my opinion.

[Experience]

Yeah, all of Brandon's books that include earth are automatically not in the cosmere.

And I don't believe it was ever planned to be a part of the cosmere. Doesn't mean it's not an amazing book still

[TheFrugalWizard]

So, the Rithmatist has a magic system in which the users are arbitrarily chosen. Rithmatists are chosen by the mysterious "lord master" who is some kind of god who rules over the world. I think that, even though Brandon says otherwise, the Rithmatist fits perfectly into the Cosmere. First, the Lord Master could easily be a shard (and I don't know a ton about this as I have read only a small bit of the Cosmere), perhaps the shard of geometry? Again, maybe that sounds stupid but I haven't read a ton of Brandon's stuff. The rithmatist must have intent to carry out his magic, which fits into the cosmere. Simply because it is on an earth-based world shouldn't mean that it can't be cosmere. Maybe I'm being dumb and missing something. Any spoilers please put under a spoiler tab please.

Edited September 15, 2023 by TheFrugalWizard
Typo

[Trusk'our]

On 9/15/2023 at 5:48 PM, TheFrugalWizard said:

I am just curious about the Rithmatist's place in Brandon's works.

Rithmatist was a Cosmere work originally, but because it took place on a variation of Earth Brandon decided to remove it (that's why its magic system seems so much like a Cosmere one- it was):

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/21/#e4557

Questioner

I really wish the Rithmatist books was on a Shardworld where...

Brandon Sanderson

It started as one... I just decided I didn't want to canonize Earth into the cosmere, it was too much.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e9680

Questioner

Are you ever gonna make a book that's based on Earth, but in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

No. The Rithmatist started that way, and I pulled it out of the cosmere, because I didn't want Earth in the cosmere. So, that happening tells me pretty surely I'll never do it.

Questioner

Out of curiosity, what Shard would have been on Rithmatist?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO that for now, because it didn't get far enough that I had even really settled. Like, it was when I was designing magic, and doing the worldbuilding. When I started asking questions like this is when I kicked it out. I didn't even write any chapters of it before I kicked it out.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219/#e7879

Questioner

What came first, Pattern or Chalklings?

Brandon Sanderson

Pattern was before Chalklings, good question. For some part of its existence, The Rithmatist was in the cosmere, until I finally decided I just don't want Earth in the cosmere at all, even a bizarre sort of version of Earth.

 

 

On 9/15/2023 at 5:54 PM, TheFrugalWizard said:

So, the Rithmatist has a magic system in which the users are arbitrarily chosen. Rithmatists are chosen by the mysterious "lord master" who is some kind of god who rules over the world. I think that, even though Brandon says otherwise, the Rithmatist fits perfectly into the Cosmere. First, the Lord Master could easily be a shard (and I don't know a ton about this as I have read only a small bit of the Cosmere), perhaps the shard of geometry? Again, maybe that sounds stupid but I haven't read a ton of Brandon's stuff. The rithmatist must have intent to carry out his magic, which fits into the cosmere. Simply because it is on an earth-based world shouldn't mean that it can't be cosmere. Maybe I'm being dumb and missing something. Any spoilers please put under a spoiler tab please.

You're right, The Rithmatist does fit pretty well into the Cosmere as a whole, because it was originally in the Cosmere. It got removed when Brandon decided he no longer want any variation of Earth in it.

[Elegy]

I think we will only really know after the sequel is out. The explanation that it's set on earth makes sense of course, but then again, it wouldn't have been that hard to just change the setting to a non-Earth Cosmere planet. But he's repeatedly stated that the sequel would involve (and require heavy research for) Aztec culture (the challenges of which are part of why the sequel still hasn't been written yet). And that has to have a function for the story more important than it being in the Cosmere. I guess we will see why when it's finally released someday.

[Aldehyde1]

He could probably retcon it into the Cosmere if he wanted. I think he just decided that its plot didn't fit nicely into his plans for the Cosmere and there was no need to connect it.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 9/17/2023 at 3:54 AM, Elegy said:

it wouldn't have been that hard to just change the setting to a non-Earth Cosmere planet

It wouldn't, but I do think the magic school setting works better on bizarro Earth, since that is itself a bizarro version of a familiar IRL thing. (Plus, how else will he make his childhood home into the fortress of evil?)

Doesn't mean I'm not going to be sad for the rest of time, though I still insist that Rithmatics is not just a Cosmere-style magic but rather the quintessential Cosmere-style magic, so it being non-Cosmere is a big fat RIP.

[Firesong]

As others said, it was made as a system for the Cosmere, that is why it is so Cosmere-esque. Even the Chalklings and Shadowblazes and the like were meant to be Spiritual Realm beings pulled into the Physical Realm, that's why they hate and fear time so much. 

But Brandon really liked how everything worked with the world he created, but also knew he didn't want any version of Earth in the cosmere as a major axiom of sorts. Thus he decided it ultimately had to be non-cosmere. Basically, it isn't cosmere because he says it isn't, it isn't in any star system in the cosmere, nor does it exist in the same cosmology in general. 

As Lews Therin mentioned, it is indeed rather disappointing that it isn't cosmere, as I quite like the magic system and it works well into the cosmere. But it also wouldn't really work any more, as I don't think it would work too well with any of the Shards that we have left. 

I do wonder what Shard Rithmatics would be of if it was Cosmere. We should ask Brandon what Shard he was planning to use for it, at Dragonsteel 2023 or something. I am very interested to find out. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 9/25/2023 at 10:33 AM, Firesong said:

I do wonder what Shard Rithmatics would be of if it was Cosmere. We should ask Brandon what Shard he was planning to use for it, at Dragonsteel 2023 or something. I am very interested to find out. 

We know it's not one he'd revealed by 2018, so it'd have to be either one of the four from RoW or one of the final two. My guess would be Invention since there's the big math focus, and because steampunk world.

[Yumi and the Nightmare Painter spoilers below]

Spoiler

Or rather that was what I thought, but now my bet is on Virtuosity. The duality between the organic beauty of Melody's chalklings and the practiced mathematical perfection of Joel's circles feels very like that Shard to me.

[Firesong]

27 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

We know it's not one he'd revealed by 2018, so it'd have to be either one of the four from RoW or one of the final two. My guess would be Invention since there's the big math focus, and because steampunk world.

[Yumi and the Nightmare Painter spoilers below]

  Reveal hidden contents

Or rather that was what I thought, but now my bet is on Virtuosity. The duality between the organic beauty of Melody's chalklings and the practiced mathematical perfection of Joel's circles feels very like that Shard to me.

Maybe, but...

Spoiler

Rithmatics feels way to strictly mathematical to work with Virtuosity. It also is just, a strict system in general. I don't think Virtuosity would make a magic system that has so many strict rules and limitations, I believe hers would be a lot more like Nalthian Awakening in the freedom it provides. And we do see that her system does, in fact, have more freedom and is very similar to Awakening. Enough so that people just call it Awakening. 

But that could just be a change he did. We ultimately can only know if somebody asks him. Which I really want somebody to do at Dragonsteel. 

That and the Bavadin genderfluid question. But that isn't relevant to the current conversation. 

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

Rithmatics feels way to strictly mathematical to work with Virtuosity.

Given how often the Fibonacci sequence crops up in Yumi I'd argue Virtuosity seems to have a strong mathematical side, which makes sense since art has a strong mathematical side.

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

And we do see that her system does, in fact, have more freedom and is very similar to Awakening. Enough so that people just call it Awakening. 

We suspect an aspect of her magic on Komashi is considered a type of Awakening. This tells us very little, though—Rosharan Lightweaving and Elantrian Lightweaving are hugely different yet given the same label, and both are only a small portion of their magic systems.

We also don't know how or if that Awakening relates to the yoki-hijo magic system, or whether it's a separate magic, or even something more artificial.

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

We ultimately can only know if somebody asks him. Which I really want somebody to do at Dragonsteel. 

Agreed.