Power poaching via hemalurgy

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

So we have seen hemalurgy steal powers without the users intent (or a shard putting that intent into their mind as they were using it? Who knows how that worked with Spooks spike). 

We have seen a spike turned into a bullet to allow Harmony to control a kandra. 

We have guns that can deliver spikes and we know that aluminum can wipe out powers. 

Could a person using nicrosil and aluminum bullets potentially insert the intent as they pull the trigger and if a bindpoint gets hit generate the desired and expected hemalurgic result? 

I know not every shot would hit a bind point but if you could just hope for the intended effect from a range would that be enough on the off change a bullet landed in the right bindpoint? Potentially making power wiping rounds, or power stealing. 

I know intent isnt super explored, but it seems to be more of a broad blanket that is tossed out there to give an answer.  Are shards the only ones capable of exerting intent from a range on something? Could you manipulate connection with duralumin to keep a specific intent on a ranged item being used as a spike? Duralumin ferrings as snipers. Store all connection and move around unseen to get better positions than other marksmen and then loose a round loaded with a hopeful spike to collect powers from range?  That would make a pretty epic antagonist. Some sort of power poacher. Stealing powers from range... Not speaking at all to how they would retrieve the newly created spikes. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

18 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Could a person using nicrosil and aluminum bullets potentially insert the intent as they pull the trigger and if a bindpoint gets hit generate the desired and expected hemalurgic result? 

You mean could the bullet be given the correct Intent to take attributes/powers Hemalurgically? Yes, I see no reason as to why that wouldn't work.

18 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I know not every shot would hit a bind point but if you could just hope for the intended effect from a range would that be enough on the off change a bullet landed in the right bindpoint? Potentially making power wiping rounds, or power stealing. 

Yeah, you probably need to hit the right bindpoint, so Wax-levels of precision would be necessary in most cases. But should be theoretically possible, if very difficult.

18 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I know intent isnt super explored, but it seems to be more of a broad blanket that is tossed out there to give an answer.  Are shards the only ones capable of exerting intent from a range on something? Could you manipulate connection with duralumin to keep a specific intent on a ranged item being used as a spike? Duralumin ferrings as snipers. Store all connection and move around unseen to get better positions than other marksmen and then loose a round loaded with a hopeful spike to collect powers from range?  That would make a pretty epic antagonist. Some sort of power poacher. Stealing powers from range... Not speaking at all to how they would retrieve the newly created spikes. 

You know, I don't think that you'd even need to be a Connector Ferring to make ranged Hemalurgic weapons; if a spike gun works, a regular bullet with the right metal composition should too.

In fact, I bet that if a gunsmith created a gun with the correct Intent, it would be able to perform Hemalurgy even without the person firing it having the Intent- we've seen something similar happen with Navani creating a plate that could create Odium's Anti-Tone even without her continual Intent after its creation. The Bindpoint would still be necessary though, so it wouldn't be likely to do much unless the person firing the gun was attempting to use Hemalurgy and aimed accordingly.

An interesting topic with some juicy Realmatics to delve into. Thanks @Tamriel Wolfsbaine !

Edited September 11, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

47 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

You mean could the bullet be given the correct Intent to take attributes/powers Hemalurgically? Yes, I see no reason as to why that wouldn't work.

Yeah, you probably need to hit the right bindpoint, so Wax-levels of precision would be necessary in most cases. But should be theoretically possible, if very difficult.

You know, I don't think that you'd even need to be a Connector Ferring to make ranged Hemalurgic weapons; if a spike gun works, a regular bullet with the right metal composition should too.

In fact, I bet that if a gunsmith created a gun with the correct Intent, it would be able to perform Hemalurgy even without the person firing it having the Intent- we've seen something similar happen with Navani creating a plate that could create Odium's Anti-Tone even without her continual Intent after its creation. The Bindpoint would still be necessary though, so it wouldn't be likely to do much unless the person firing the gun was attempting to use Hemalurgy and aimed accordingly.

An interesting topic with some juicy Realmatics to delve into. Thanks @Tamriel Wolfsbaine !

Could you put anti-tone into a bullet?  It would be terrifying if Scadrial acquired anti light anti personnel ammunition in the sci-fi eras. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

20 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Could you put anti-tone into a bullet?  It would be terrifying if Scadrial acquired anti light anti personnel ammunition in the sci-fi eras. 

I think that it would be more difficult than that. I mean, you could possibly make a metal bullet that buzzed to an Anti-Tone, but I don't think that it would have the same effect as something like a Raysium dagger that contained Anti-Light; it would possibly be able to repel the Investiture of someone it hit (with an effect being similar to A-chromium), but it wouldn't blow up their Soul, I would think.

I do think that it may be possible to do this with Hemalurgic spikes though; program the Investiture of a spike to become Anti-Investiture and then stab it into someone to annihilate their Spiritweb. Already made a thread about it on the Cosmere discussion forum actually.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

I think that it would be more difficult than that. I mean, you could possibly make a metal bullet that buzzed to an Anti-Tone, but I don't think that it would have the same effect as something like a Raysium dagger that contained Anti-Light; it would possibly be able to repel the Investiture of someone it hit (with an effect being similar to A-chromium), but it wouldn't blow up their Soul, I would think.

I do think that it may be possible to do this with Hemalurgic spikes though; program the Investiture of a spike to become Anti-Investiture and then stab it into someone to annihilate their Spiritweb. Already made a thread about it on the Cosmere discussion forum actually.

I guess my thoughts are simply in that we are already seeing magic and gunsmithing going hand in hand with eachother. Anything along these lines placed in bullet form could be a huge difference maker in the wars to come.  

Kelsier already has ghostbloods gathering and reporting as much information as they can on the tech of other planets.  The ghostbloods had already acquired soulcasters and shards.  I am sure they are watching Navani closely and they are doing the same thing on other planets in the background (at least I am sure that if Kel has agents working for him from other planets he is for sure having agents work for him on those planets).  

Kelsier doesn't get a ton of credit for being some powerful scholar but I would put his knowledge and his organization among the most dangerous groups in the cosmere at the moment. Imagine what could start to come into existance if he had someone of Ranette's talent in gunsmithing as well and start combining all of these.  

Part of me thinks Harmony and Marsh would have to do something to slow him down if he is getting too far right?  

 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

3 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Yeah, you probably need to hit the right bindpoint, so Wax-levels of precision would be necessary in most cases. But should be theoretically possible, if very difficult.

This or you could get a gun with full-auto then do a little spray-n-pray until you hit the right Bindpoint.

[Trusk'our he/him]

12 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

This or you could get a gun with full-auto then do a little spray-n-pray until you hit the right Bindpoint.

That, good sir, would be terrifying; at the very least, you'd tear their Spiritweb to shreds by piercing them with too many spikes.

So, maybe that would be a good counter to highly Invested opponents? Birdshot should also do the trick.

44 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Kelsier already has ghostbloods gathering and reporting as much information as they can on the tech of other planets.  The ghostbloods had already acquired soulcasters and shards.  I am sure they are watching Navani closely and they are doing the same thing on other planets in the background (at least I am sure that if Kel has agents working for him from other planets he is for sure having agents work for him on those planets).  

Kelsier doesn't get a ton of credit for being some powerful scholar but I would put his knowledge and his organization among the most dangerous groups in the cosmere at the moment. Imagine what could start to come into existance if he had someone of Ranette's talent in gunsmithing as well and start combining all of these.  

In my opinion, Kelsier is one of the most dangerous and potentially most influential individuals in the Cosmere currently. I'm quite interested in seeing what he ends up doing with that influence.

45 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Part of me thinks Harmony and Marsh would have to do something to slow him down if he is getting too far right?  

It's certainly possible, though I don't know if they'd want him to "slow down". They'd probably just want him to use what he has in a better way. Though, Sazed (or Discord) may be for taking him out due to their. . . dissagreements.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

1 minute ago, Trusk'our said:

That, good sir, would be terrifying; at the very least, you'd tear their Spiritweb to shreds by piercing them with too many spikes.

So, maybe that would be a good counter to highly Invested opponents?

I imagine that it will become necessary in the future Cosmere, if there will be a war between Scadrial and Roshar then I imagine you'd want to be able to make sure the enemy Radiants are dead. Or heck even just the Fused if Odium is the instigator.

Though Shardplate could be a problem you could also just whittle it down with more bullets, it's not invincible after all.

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 minute ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Though Shardplate could be a problem you could also just whittle it down with more bullets, it's not invincible after all.

That's what the Big Gun is for, friend 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

4 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I imagine that it will become necessary in the future Cosmere, if there will be a war between Scadrial and Roshar then I imagine you'd want to be able to make sure the enemy Radiants are dead. Or heck even just the Fused if Odium is the instigator.

Though Shardplate could be a problem you could also just whittle it down with more bullets, it's not invincible after all.

 

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

That's what the Big Gun is for, friend 

You combine Ranette's custom rounds and hemalurgic rounds (antilight even?)  with modern day ballistics and you could make some DISGUSTING anti radiant rounds I am positive. (Side note: gunsmithing and custom ammunition is probably one of the most fun parts of the MAG and I am so glad crafty games leaned in so heavily on the tech being a viable build option, even for characters with no powers.)

That isn't to say that radiants will not be dangerous.  I just don't forsee the shards keeping them ahead of the arms race for very long.  I really forsee magics becoming less important than anti-magic and tech. 

And the ghostbloods are going to keep Scadrial a step ahead of Roshar for a long time. 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[therunner he/him]

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So we have seen hemalurgy steal powers without the users intent (or a shard putting that intent into their mind as they were using it? Who knows how that worked with Spooks spike).

There was Intent, it was Ruin's Intent in that case (there are WoBs).

Quote

We have seen a spike turned into a bullet to allow Harmony to control a kandra. 

Eh, I would not say 'turned into bullet', it was just pre-existing spike used as a bullet.

Quote

We have guns that can deliver spikes and we know that aluminum can wipe out powers. 

Those are possible to be created yes.

Quote

Could a person using nicrosil and aluminum bullets potentially insert the intent as they pull the trigger and if a bindpoint gets hit generate the desired and expected hemalurgic result? 

I know not every shot would hit a bind point but if you could just hope for the intended effect from a range would that be enough on the off change a bullet landed in the right bindpoint? Potentially making power wiping rounds, or power stealing. 

I think so, yes. Really with any hemalurgically viable metal.

But hitting the bindpoint is extremely difficult. The only examples of successful spiking that was not done on immobilized victim was done when Ruin was actively manipulating Intent and driving the events. There are hints that even Inquisitors when spiking victims use Atium to ensure they hit what they need.

Think of it like this, there are ~300 bindpoints on human body. Bindpoints themselves are tiny, small enough that at least 32 fit just on the heart (since that is where powers are typically stolen from). Surface area of heart can be approximated as ~80 cm^2, so single bind point is bounded by 2.5 cm^2 area, that is square with side 1.5 cm in length.

Olympic shooting with hand gun from 10 meters, the innermost ring worth 10 points, is larger than that (~3.8 cm^2) by nearly 50%. And even hitting this target is difficult for the very best shooters, in optimal conditions (i.e. stationary target, not in the middle of fight).
And again, that is just the square somewhere within bind point should fit, bind points themselves are smaller than that.

For not even that high-pressure situations, NYPD has the best hit rate when discharging weapon, and it is only about 30%. And that is hit rate, just hitting the target anywhere on the body. Hitting milimeter sized target is well, impossible to do reliably.

For sniper rifles, accuracy is typically referred in MOA (minute of angle), so you can estimate spread (specifically 5 bullets hit circle of given radius). The very best sniper rifles have MOA around 0.5, which translates to spread of ~5 cm from 800 meters, or ~6 mm from 100 meters. Benchrest rifles mounted on specially prepared tables, and calibrated for conditions, can be about twice as good, so the spread would be ~2.5 cm to ~3mm, which is still not good enough.
So the very mechanism of sniper rifles is not precise enough to reliably hit target smaller than ~0.5 cm across from 100 meters.

TLDR: It is impossible to hit a bindpoint on purpose when shooting, even if the conditions are perfect. Humans are not accurate enough, and the very mechanism of a gun is also not reliable enough.
So it is not reliable tactic, unless you can tap massive amount of Fortune, or see future (and have enhanced reflexes) via Atium.

Edited September 12, 2023 by therunner

[Trusk'our he/him]

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

You combine Ranette's custom rounds and hemalurgic rounds (antilight even?)  with modern day ballistics and you could make some DISGUSTING anti radiant rounds I am positive. (Side note: gunsmithing and custom ammunition is probably one of the most fun parts of the MAG and I am so glad crafty games leaned in so heavily on the tech being a viable build option, even for characters with no powers.)

Modified Anit-Radiant rounds certainly would help balance the scales.

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

That isn't to say that radiants will not be dangerous.  I just don't forsee the shards keeping them ahead of the arms race for very long.  I really forsee magics becoming less important than anti-magic and tech. 

I agree. I think that as technology advances throughout the Cosmere Invested individuals will stop possessing the same level of power as they once did, at least compared to all other people.

For example, if someone like Rashek came into existence in Scadrial's next one to two-hundred years and tried to take things over, they'd be killed or have their powers stripped from them via Hemalurgy after being caught and imprisoned- Harmonium grenades could sap their Investiture stores and a special team of Invested individuals would wear them down (in fact, I beleive that era 3 will be delving into such a team as the main cast of characters). Other weapons and tools could also come into existence to further even the field.

It's no wonder Rashek wanted to keep society from advancing technologically; they'd have found ways to overthrow him.

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

And the ghostbloods are going to keep Scadrial a step ahead of Roshar for a long time. 

I think it depends; do the Ghostbloods want to give all of Scadrial their scientific knowledge, or do they want to collect it for themselves? If they want to hoard it, that could lead to further complications if their group ever becomes compromised or corrupted.

But, seeing Kel's desires in TLM, it's very likely that the GB will end up helping Scadrial's advance along, though they'd likely do it from the shadows.

[TheFrugalWizard he/him]

I have a question about the Cosmere in general. Now, I haven't read all of the Cosmere (only Mistborn [just eras 1 and 2, no novellas], White Sand, Elantris, Tress of the Emerald Sea, and Sixth of the Dusk. I'm one chapter into Warbreaker) but I have a theory about hemallurgy. Now, I know that there are 16 shards which form to make Adonalsium or whatever his name is, but that's pretty much it. So--what if a person were to go from world to world, using extremely small spikes to take all of the different powers (as to not literally decimate their body with spikes). Would this, potentially, reunite all of the shards and reform the original god, adonalsium? Apart from the fact that spiking yourself this many times would rip your soul into shreds, of course.

[Trusk'our he/him]

45 minutes ago, TheFrugalWizard said:

I have a question about the Cosmere in general. Now, I haven't read all of the Cosmere (only Mistborn [just eras 1 and 2, no novellas], White Sand, Elantris, Tress of the Emerald Sea, and Sixth of the Dusk. I'm one chapter into Warbreaker) but I have a theory about hemallurgy. Now, I know that there are 16 shards which form to make Adonalsium or whatever his name is, but that's pretty much it. So--what if a person were to go from world to world, using extremely small spikes to take all of the different powers (as to not literally decimate their body with spikes). Would this, potentially, reunite all of the shards and reform the original god, adonalsium? Apart from the fact that spiking yourself this many times would rip your soul into shreds, of course.

I don't know that it would work as you suggest, though it's a pretty cool Idea.

First, Identity contamination would prevent the spikes from merging properly, though that could potentially be fixed by blanking said Identity through some method.

Second, which is far more difficult to change, is that Hemalurgy doesn't seem to retain the Intent of the Investiutre it takes (as far as I understand it currently)- it gets converted to Ruin's Intent, which would make it impossible to merge multiple Shard's Intent's through this method.

Still, there may potentially a way to do something along the lines of what you suggest, and in fact, somebody's currently trying to get it to work it would seem. . . minor Cosmere spoilers

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498/#e15651

Chris D.

If Hoid collects a form of Investiture from every planet, will it grant him special effects?

Brandon Sanderson

He hopes so!

But this is a bit of a hypothesis at this point, so maybe he's trying to do something different altogether. We just don't know for certain yet.

[alder24]

13 hours ago, TheFrugalWizard said:

I have a question about the Cosmere in general. Now, I haven't read all of the Cosmere (only Mistborn [just eras 1 and 2, no novellas], White Sand, Elantris, Tress of the Emerald Sea, and Sixth of the Dusk. I'm one chapter into Warbreaker) but I have a theory about hemallurgy. Now, I know that there are 16 shards which form to make Adonalsium or whatever his name is, but that's pretty much it. So--what if a person were to go from world to world, using extremely small spikes to take all of the different powers (as to not literally decimate their body with spikes). Would this, potentially, reunite all of the shards and reform the original god, adonalsium? Apart from the fact that spiking yourself this many times would rip your soul into shreds, of course.

No. Each Shard  is an infinite amount of investiture, spikes can only hold a very tiny amount of it. You can't Ascend to a Shard just from investiture in a spike. To reform Adonalsium you would need to combine all Shards (if that's even possible to reform Adonalsium), which is impossible with spikes as spikes not only can't hold that much investiture, but spikes repel Preservation's investiture, preventing you from Ascending to Preservation (we see this in HoA with Vin and her spike). Secondly, now a soul can accept only 4 spikes, if you want to give yourself a 5th spike it will be rejected - this is because of the current nature of Harmony, holding both Ruin and Preservation. You can't have 16 spikes (not to mention some powers like Elantrianess or Surgebinding require 2 spikes each - one for Connection, second one for stealing powers). Not to mention that it's likely that the process of spiking corrupts that stolen piece of soul into Ruin's investiture, so you wouldn't even be connected to all Shards.

But being pre-Catacendre would allow you to hold this many spikes - Marsh has 22 spikes, it strains his soul but he still lives and is functioning.

[TheFrugalWizard he/him]

Okay, but theoretically, Harmony consists of two shards combined. So, if all of the shards were to clash at one given point, and all be destroyed, then a human could technically sieze the combined powers of all of them, thus becoming Adonalsium. Also, I think that someone who has been spiked with all the powers might just be able to challenge a shard. They would have a taste, however small, a bit of each shard, and I think that they could therefore have a small amount of Adonalsium's original power.

[alder24]

27 minutes ago, TheFrugalWizard said:

Okay, but theoretically, Harmony consists of two shards combined. So, if all of the shards were to clash at one given point, and all be destroyed, then a human could technically sieze the combined powers of all of them, thus becoming Adonalsium.

We don't know what Adonalsium was and if recombining all 16 Shards together (which is theoretically possible, but one needs to be connected with all Shards) would bring Adonalsium back. The rules which apply to Shards might not apply to Adonalsium. We don't even know if Adonalsium was something like sentient investiture, if he was a Vessel for that investiture or if he had any Vessel.

Each Shard is a fragment of Adonalsium. Would combining them all bring Adonalsium back or create something entirely new on the same power level? SA spoilers:

Spoiler

it's fully possible for a Vessel to redefine an existing Shards, that's what Rayse tried to do with Odium - Passion

Therefore a Vessel holding all 16 Shards might become something different than Adonalsium (just like Sazed is Harmony but can become Discord when he won't be able to control opposing Shards well). WoB:

Spoiler

m4ge

If a Splintered Shard is somehow reformed, is it possible to change the word that expresses its Intent?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but that's a very implausible thing depending on how... so, you're getting into some weird Cosmere stuff here. Most of the ways that these different Shards could manifest could be described differently. SA spoilers:

Spoiler

Odium is trying very hard to describe his Shard as something different, and there's an argument there. But it depends on if you're like actually changing it or if you just want to call it something different. You could just call Odium Hatred and it's not going to change anything, but if you wanted to change Odium to mean Passion like Odium thinks that it means, then that's more difficult.

 

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

Spoiler

m4ge

If a Splintered Shard is somehow reformed, is it possible to change the word that expresses its Intent?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but that's a very implausible thing depending on how... so, you're getting into some weird Cosmere stuff here. Most of the ways that these different Shards could manifest could be described differently. Odium is trying very hard to describe his Shard as something different, and there's an argument there. But it depends on if you're like actually changing it or if you just want to call it something different. You could just call Odium Hatred and it's not going to change anything, but if you wanted to change Odium to mean Passion like Odium thinks that it means, then that's more difficult.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

I had a question regarding the sixteen Shards... If they are, or when they are reformed to Adonalsium, will it have to be one person holding all sixteen Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO. I'm gonna RAFO that partially because there's not even-- who knows if it can all be recombined.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

What I want to say is that if you're talking about Adonalsium as a power of all 16 Shards combined, then yes, you might be able to recreate that, but if you're talking about a sentient being that was Adonalium, than it's unlikely to come back, just like Leras (previous Preservation's Vessel) or Vin are gone and won't come back. We don't know what was the nature of Adonalsium and the nature of the Shattering.

 

39 minutes ago, TheFrugalWizard said:

Also, I think that someone who has been spiked with all the powers might just be able to challenge a shard.

No. Just no. Shard holds infinite investiture. A person that has access to all invested art would be in no way even close to the power level of a Shards. Just no. Those powers came from Shards, invested arts are manifestations of Shardic power, they are abilities for mortals to access a tiny bit of powers of creation, which Shards can access fully - and most of invested arts are powered by those Shards. A person spiked with every power wouldn't be even the most invested living, non-Shardic being - there are few candidates that would be more invested than that, and yet they are far below Shard power level. 

45 minutes ago, TheFrugalWizard said:

They would have a taste, however small, a bit of each shard, and I think that they could therefore have a small amount of Adonalsium's original power.

Every invested art is the ability to slightly touch Adonalsium - power of creation - but Shards are the literal pieces of power of creation, and those invested arts came from them and through them. It's not even close to raw power each Shard holds and never will be - if you were to gain that much power to rival a Shard, your human body would vaporize because it physically can't hold that much power (that's what happened to Vin twice, in WoA and HoA), and you would become a Shard - but to gain that much power you would have to take it from Shards directly, not from invested arts, as invested arts invest you only slightly.

Spoiler

Kaimipono

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

Brandon Sanderson

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

[TheFrugalWizard he/him]

Before I can reply--just curious, does Brandon ever say that a shard has an infinite amount of investiture?

Edited September 16, 2023 by TheFrugalWizard
Incorrect word usage

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, TheFrugalWizard said:

Before I can reply--just curious, does Brandon ever say that a shard has an infinite amount of investiture?

Kind of. It's finite but it's like the amount of atoms in our observable universe - so large that it's practically infinite. A Vessel can't access infinite power of a Shard because his mind is finite:

Spoiler

Questioner

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

Brandon Sanderson

The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

Questioner

What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity...

Brandon Sanderson

So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Alex M

What's the difference between avatar and Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson

These are all very weird terms that I'm just using.

*mistakenly answering for Sliver* A Sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing.

An avatar is... a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a Shard, or a lowercase-g god in the Cosmere, can do.

Brandon Sanderson

*realizes that he answered for Sliver earlier, and clarifies*

A Splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is Splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions  - an actual piece of it [the Shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the Splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard, then it is called a Splinter.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

With Shards, are there any... limits? What can't they do? Besides being opposed by another Shard and their own intent?

Brandon Sanderson

It varies a lot. It varies based on experience and situation. They are not omnipotent, though the power is infinite. So that is the weird part that you get into. So, they are limited partially by their own limitations, and also the limitations imposed upon them by the situations they're in.

Questioner

Is there anything universal about all of them?

Brandon Sanderson

They all have bits of them in all of the cosmere, so that's universal. They all are bounded more by themselves than by the power itself.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

 

Spoiler

chasmfriend's son

Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

[...]

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Very Nice Name 16

You write a lot of immortals in your books. How do you think about people living on large time frames like that and how that affects the way they think and act compared to ordinary people? And also, say, 10,000-year-old compared to a 2000-year-old to a 300-year-old?

Brandon Sanderson

This is actually something I've dedicated a lot of thought to. I think fantasy and science fiction, one of the things it does well is explore human experiences that aren't possible in contemporary or realistic fiction. And so there are a lot of people out there searching for the key to human immortality. And what would it be like? How would we deal with it? These are questions that are interesting to me, and doing a story on a 10,000-year timescale lets me play around with that. I will say that various people you've met are immortal; some are not. Some, it's more time dilation shenanigans than it is extended lifespan.

But regardless, how do I approach this? By gut and instinct, just trying different things out. No human being's experience is identical to another human being's experience, so I figure no immortal's experience will be identical to other immortals' experiences, and so I can have lots of different responses. I can base it partially on the magic system and how they were made immortal. And then that lets me play with different experiences. Like, the things the Heralds are going through, Hoid hasn't gone through. Some of the sort of degradation of what's happening with their souls is unique... not wholly unique, but individual to the experiences they're having. And I play with those differently than I play with someone who's been elevated to holding near-infinite power in one of the Shards and how their experience goes. And then you've got, just, random people who have run across things that have changed their experiences in different ways, and I will approach them in a different way. And I can't really say how exactly I'm gonna do this with everybody. It's just gonna be different for each character in each situation.

That's a very long non-answer. I've thought about it a lot; I don't have answers yet. You'll see them in the books when I write them.

YouTube Livestream 39 (Feb. 1, 2022)

Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

emailanimal

From a very recent signing, we have this new Word of Brandon...

chasmfriend's son: Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon: Yes.

chasmfriend's son: So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon: Yes. Very, very slowly.

This worries me somewhat because of the following observation.

Nightblood consumes Breath (and other Investiture, but let's limit ourselves to Breath for a second).

Every person on Nalthis is born with one Breath.

Populations tend to grow. Which means that under normal rules of demographics, population of Nalthis should keep increasing.

This in turn means that under normal circumstances the number of people with Breath on Nalthis should be growing.

I can see the following possible explanations to this:

1. Endowment can give Breath to many more people than are currently living on Nalthis. So, the exponential population growth has not yet reached the level at which Endowment's ability to award a Breath to each Nalthis-born human is seriously challenged. When it happens though, things will not go well.

2. There is some built-in mechanism controlling population growth on Nalthis, making certain that the population stays within the limits. Nightblood's consumption of Breath makes these limits smaller, and overall may lead to Endowment's inability to grant Breath to Nalthis-born, but not for a while (essentially, Endowment controls population trends at she sees fit).

Thoughts?

Brandon Sanderson

Just as a point you should understand, the amount of MATTER in the cosmere is finite too. As is the amount of energy.

Worrying that Endowment will run out of Breaths to give is a little like worrying that the amount of carbon on Earth will run out because people keep being born.

uchoo786

So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak.

General Reddit 2015 (Dec. 14, 2015)

 

[TheFrugalWizard he/him]

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's finite but it's like the amount of atoms in our observable universe - so large that it's practically infinite.

Okay, that makes a big difference, because something with a finite amount of power can be added to or subtracted from. So theoretically, if a shard were to destroy another shard, both of them getting killed in the process, and a mortal were to seize both of their powers (like Sazed), then they would have more power than any other individual shard. They could then go around killing all of the shards and taking their power, thus reuniting all 16 shards.

 

Another thing--Preservation. He had less power than Ruin during the course of era 1. Now, Brandon did say that it wasn't gone, just in a different form, this still suggests a finite amount of power, again, because it can be subtracted from.

[alder24]

42 minutes ago, TheFrugalWizard said:

Okay, that makes a big difference, because something with a finite amount of power can be added to or subtracted from. So theoretically, if a shard were to destroy another shard, both of them getting killed in the process, and a mortal were to seize both of their powers (like Sazed), then they would have more power than any other individual shard. They could then go around killing all of the shards and taking their power, thus reuniting all 16 shards.

Yes and no. Raw power isn't everything. Technically they would have more power but again, Vessel's mind is finite, and they can't use all of that power. We don't even know if holding two Shards expands your mind more than holding one Shard - if not then Sazed can only use a comparable amount of power to any other singular Shard.

Spoiler

Questioner

Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Questioner

Yeah. 

Brandon Sanderson

Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?

Questioner

Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, there's your answer.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

 

But yes, it's technically possible to reunite all 16 Shards, but one has to have a very strong Connection (and proper understanding of Shardic nature) to all of them to actually Ascend and combine all 16 Shards - which is unlikely to happen. Just having access to Shard's invested art isn't enough. Read SH, the Connection bit was explained there.

But then would a double Shard always end up in a similar state as Harmony - having trouble to actually achieve real harmony and being unable to act? Sazed basically poses no threat to anyone as he can't do anything at all, as his two opposing Shards prevent him from acting. Sazed can't Splinter nobody. Would adding more Shards into the mix cause even more problems and greater inability to act? We don't know but it's possible.

48 minutes ago, TheFrugalWizard said:

Another thing--Preservation. He had less power than Ruin during the course of era 1. Now, Brandon did say that it wasn't gone, just in a different form, this still suggests a finite amount of power, again, because it can be subtracted from.

Yes, that was Preservation's fragment in people's soul. This is the power that Preservation's mind is "using", or rather is aware of it and can control. That's why imbalance could be achieved between Ruin and Preservation with almost infinite power in each Shard because Vessel's mind is much more restricted and finite and can be aware (and use) of only a fraction of total Shardic power. Even with truly infinite power, Preservation can use only a finite amount of power to create Scadrial and later oppose Ruin - because Vessel's mind is finite and can't ever reach to infinity. It really doesn't matter if Shardic power is truly infinite or only approaching it, Vessel's mind will always limit the amount of power a Shard can use - and this is always finite, and from that you can subtract.

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

[TheFrugalWizard he/him]

On 9/17/2023 at 11:22 AM, alder24 said:

But then would a double Shard always end up in a similar state as Harmony - having trouble to actually achieve real harmony and being unable to act? Sazed basically poses no threat to anyone as he can't do anything at all, as his two opposing Shards prevent him from acting. Sazed can't Splinter nobody. Would adding more Shards into the mix cause even more problems and greater inability to act? We don't know but it's possible.

This push and pull relationship is unique to Scadrial, and I think that it would exist in much smaller proportions than we see in Harmony. Also, in era 2, we see that the other shards are threatened by Sazed, having two shards. It's clear that he has more power than any other shard.

[alder24]

10 hours ago, TheFrugalWizard said:

This push and pull relationship is unique to Scadrial,

No, it's most visible on Scadrial, but it exists Cosmere wide - just look how metals work in Fabrials or in contact with Aethers. It's the same push-pull relation that we see on Scadrial.

10 hours ago, TheFrugalWizard said:

and I think that it would exist in much smaller proportions than we see in Harmony.

I personally don't think that most Shards merged would become like Harmony, because his state is a result of polarization of Ruin and Preservation, which is unique to Scadrial. Other Shards however still show polarization like that, but on a smaller scale, like Honor/Odium, Devotion/Dominion - those might have troubles merging. 

Spoiler

Argent (paraphrased)

Ruin and Preservation were often represented in the Mistborn trilogy in terms of black and white. Is this imagery limited to that series, or do other Shards also have an associated hue?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This (Ruin & Preservation's colors) was because of the specific world and their perception of the world and themselves. Essentially, because of the dynamics of the interplay between Ruin and Preservation, they "chose" to view themselves as black and white respectively, so that's how they were represented. Also, because the only two Shards on Scadrial, and their natures were opposites, after the long period of time they spent on the same planet, they kind of "polarized." If similar thing happened on another world, similar coloring effect could happen.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 1, 2013)

 

10 hours ago, TheFrugalWizard said:

Also, in era 2, we see that the other shards are threatened by Sazed, having two shards. It's clear that he has more power than any other shard.

Autonomy was threatened by Harmony, but more by Scadrial's technological progress, which rivaled Taldain's technological superiority. Autonomy was able to easily blind Harmony, despite him being "more powerful". Having two Shards does indeed increase raw power, but having raw power and being able to use it are two separate things - Sazed clearly isn't able to utilize his power, he can't act at all, he poses no threat in the near future. Harmony's real advantage is that something like this hasn't happened before, and others are simply unaware of Harmony's true state - the more they know, the less threatened they will be. 

Spoiler

Questioner

You've mentioned before that Odium is scared of Harmony. Is it only because of the raw power of the two Shards? Or is he scared of what Harmony represents? (Meaning the possibility of merging two Shards.) Was he aware that this was possible?

Brandon Sanderson

He, on one level, was aware. But it was more of awareness of this as a possibility. It actually happening is part of what has him scared. It's the idea of the two merging Shards both being more powerful and finding a harmony. (Which Sazed is actually having way more trouble doing than Odium realizes.) Those two things really have Odium scared. Because, partially, this means he has to find a way to destroy or split Harmony without taking up a second Shard himself, because Odium knows if he takes up a second Shard, terrible things will happen. And so he doesn't want to do that. (Terrible things as he views them.) And so he's gotta find a way to split this apart, or somehow otherwise defeat.

Now, the more he learns about Sazed's actual state, the less afraid he'll probably be. But that's an advantage that Sazed has right now.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

Brandon Sanderson

The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

Questioner

What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity...

Brandon Sanderson

So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)