Koloss and Koloss-Blooded DNA

[Trusk'our he/him]

I was on a thread recently that's been talking about Koloss-blooded people and things regarding them, which got me thinking about why Koloss' children are so different from their parents.

The first hypothesis was that the Koloss just happen to pass on different genes to their children than what they possess. Which technically could be what's going on, but literally no other creature in existence works that way; they try to pass on a slight variation of the genes they have, not an extreme mutation. Sazed could have done some shenanigans with this, but ultimately it just doesn't make sense that he'd do that.

The second hypothesis was that Koloss DNA changes into whatever the Koloss-blooded child's DNA will be when it leaves the body of the Koloss, kind of like how a Soulstamp won't continue to affect a part of the body that was lost- it would revert to its normal form after the Stamp (or in this case spikes) stopped having a direct effect on it. Only problem is, that isn't how the spikes work; they cause a permanent change to the Koloss's body, even after they die. If a Koloss's arm doesn't change back to a human's upon leaving their body, neither would their genetic code.

The third hypothesis was that Koloss have the same DNA that Koloss-blooded do. The Koloss's spikes would work as a magical component that would keep up part of their transformation, but their DNA would pass on to their offspring. After all, the Cognitive Aspect of the Koloss reverts to being human after death, so this would almost make sense. . . except that, once again, the spikes aren't like Soulstamps; the same problem as with hypothesis #2 occurs here, where the spikes simply don't grant a temporary physical transformation, it's a permanent thing.

So, my final- and I believe plausable- hypothesis is that Koloss simply can't give all their genetic code over to their children. Basically, the spikes of the Koloss add to their spiritual (and by extension) physical DNA, causing them to change from humans into Koloss. However, the code in the spikes is nontransferable; the same thing happens when a Steel Inquisitor tries to pass on their Hemalurgically granted powers to their offspring- the genes in the spikes just don't make the leap from parent to child.

This would also explain why Koloss couldn't have children before Harmony intervened; any time they tied to have kids, the genes they passed on were mangled because they were filled with holes as the Hemalurgic spikes didn't pass on their portion of the Koloss's DNA, meaning that the child wouldn't have been able to form properly, and the cells would simply never have formed correctly to make a new organism.

However, when Harmony stepped in and tweaked the system, he allowed the spikes to pass a spliced version the Koloss genes, allowing a new being to be created, though without parts of the genetic code of its parents. This would also explain why Koloss-blooded have some vestigial traits of Koloss, but why they are mostly human- Hemalurgy is less brutal now than it once was, allowing for Spiritwebs holding the spikes to pass on some small portion of the Spikes' contents.

Or, possibly, instead of the Spikes themselves passing on part of their code, the portion of the Koloss DNA passed on splices itself into a usable set of genes, but is still slightly twisted from the spikes' code, hence the reason Koloss-blooded have some residual traits of their Koloss parents. That one may also be possible.

Hmm. Perhaps I've put a little too much thought into this. . . 

[therunner he/him]

I think it is the final hypothesis.

Spikes staple foreign spiritweb onto recipients spiritweb, but just like organ grafts don't change DNA, I don't think spikes change sDNA to any large degree. There must be some sDNA change, considering the WoBs about Inquisitors procreating, but it clearly isn't too large.

So Koloss having a child won't pass anything in spikes to their children, so they simply cannot be born full-blown Koloss.

Sazed then most likely tweaked their sDNA (and DNA too) so that some of those traits sourced from spikes now are part of their sDNA, and hence can be passed along. But to become full Koloss, they still require spikes.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I agree with @therunner I believe it was stated that Harmony changed them in a way that allowed them to reproduce.  I think it is note worthy that Harmony did not make any such changes to Kandra to allow them to procreate (however I believe WoB has said that kandra can use the DNA of one of their mimicked targets and procreate with that DNA). 

I wonder how much the KB DNA gets stripped down as KB continue to breed without having become full koloss over time.  Perhaps Tarson was a shorter specimin precisely because of the allomantic blood he had in his genes as well. There is only so much space on the sDNA for all of these traits I think.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

7 hours ago, therunner said:

I think it is the final hypothesis.

Yeah, I think I am as well, since that option would continue to accept that Allomantic and Feruchmical potential granted by Hemalurgy cannot be transferred genetically.

37 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I wonder how much the KB DNA gets stripped down as KB continue to breed without having become full koloss over time.  Perhaps Tarson was a shorter specimin precisely because of the allomantic blood he had in his genes as well. There is only so much space on the sDNA for all of these traits I think.  

Not sure, though if two KB were to have a child together, I suspect that their unique genes would be preserved. Intermixing with humans would dilute those Koloss genes though, just as we see in Tarson.

[Treamayne]

23 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

After all, the Cognitive Aspect of the Koloss reverts to being human after death, so this would almost make sense

Keep in mind, that is only in Era 1, where Koloss were still "Humans turned into hemalurgic monsters" and not a distinct species.

23 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

However, when Harmony stepped in and tweaked the system, he allowed the spikes to pass a spliced version the Koloss genes, allowing a new being to be created, though without parts of the genetic code of its parents.

Where did you get this? I cannot find any sources validating this assertion. Harmony codified the Koloss survivors of the Catacendre as a distinct species with their own DNA traits and capable of breeding. Children who have not received spikes are close enough to humans to allow interbreeding (but we have no evidence that a Full Koloss could breed with a Human). So, a non-spiked Koloss-Blooded has their defined DNA - once they get spikes, aspects of that DNA are accentuated by the Hemalurgy. There is no indication that anything from the spikes are inheritable - especially since most traits in a Koloss aren't about the Physical Strength stored in the Iron Spikes. The spikes provide their strength, the position of the spikes determine how the physical body is warped by the hemalurgy.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Where did you get this? I cannot find any sources validating this assertion.

We know Harmony tweaked something about either the Koloss or the mechanics of Hemalurgy to let them breed true. All other parts are purely speculation.

I apologize; I now see that I presented some of my ideas as if it were fact, not merely postulation. I'm usually better at separating the two.

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

We know Harmony tweaked something about either the Koloss or the mechanics of Hemalurgy to let them breed true. All other parts are purely speculation.

I apologize; I now see that I presented some of my ideas as if it were fact, not merely postulation. I'm usually better at separating the two.

No worries, just wanted to verify in case I missed some new WoBs. . .

[Quantus he/him]

The big question here is if Harmony changes a specific group/generation of Koloss to be the progenitors of the Half Koloss Race, or if he actually tweaked the magic to let spikes create Subraces.  If it's the former, then a new Koloss could be made from Spikes (Era1 style) and it would not be able to make Half-Koloss Children.  If it's the later, then we should theoretically see other Hemalurgic Half-races someday, and any sDNA-based powers, ability boosts, etc. should also enter the bloodline.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

The big question here is if Harmony changes a specific group/generation of Koloss to be the progenitors of the Half Koloss Race, or if he actually tweaked the magic to let spikes create Subraces. 

I had considered that before, but yeah, that's kind of an important distinction. No idea which one it is yet though.

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

If it's the later, then we should theoretically see other Hemalurgic Half-races someday, and any sDNA-based powers, ability boosts, etc. should also enter the bloodline.  

I would be interesting to see if there could be something created like the Koloss-blooded, but with an intelligence boost from parents that received Hemalurgic copper rather than a strength boost from Hemalurgic iron.

[Quantus he/him]

25 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I had considered that before, but yeah, that's kind of an important distinction. No idea which one it is yet though.

I would be interesting to see if there could be something created like the Koloss-blooded, but with an intelligence boost from parents that received Hemalurgic copper rather than a strength boost from Hemalurgic iron.

I believe there is precedent that Hemalurgically created mistings can pass the powers on (that was the Set's plan, right?) and if Power spikes can add to the bloodline sDNA, then attributes seem likely too.  So bloodlines with naturally over-sized attributes: above average Physical Power (Pewter) or heightened senses (Tin) might start becoming breeding traits.  And once that happens they'd be capable of bigger things with Feruchemy (though they may need to stick with Medallions to keep the Interference effects from coming into play).  

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

I believe there is precedent that Hemalurgically created mistings can pass the powers on (that was the Set's plan, right?) and if Power spikes can add to the bloodline sDNA, then attributes seem likely too.  So bloodlines with naturally over-sized attributes: above average Physical Power (Pewter) or heightened senses (Tin) might start becoming breeding traits.  And once that happens they'd be capable of bigger things with Feruchemy (though they may need to stick with Medallions to keep the Interference effects from coming into play).  

Ooooh, the increase of traits could be interesting to see used in that way. The Set's plan on increasing Allomantic or Feruchemical potential via Hemalurgy would have failed due to the fact that powers granted through Hemalurgy don't pass on down to the Hemalurgist's children.

[therunner he/him]

10 hours ago, Quantus said:

I believe there is precedent that Hemalurgically created mistings can pass the powers on (that was the Set's plan, right?)

I don't think it was Set's plan. They had a breeding program (Community) so they would have enough subjects for experiments (and as donors), that is why they were kidnapping people from Spook's bloodline. If spiked people could pass on powers, there would no need to kidnap  people from Allomantic bloodlines for breeding program, they could just kidnap random people, spike them, and use them.

It is possible they were experimenting in that direction, but as far as we know, nothing about passing on powers is ever said, and the kidnapping program and Community make less sense.

Edited September 12, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Quantus said:

I believe there is precedent that Hemalurgically created mistings can pass the powers on (that was the Set's plan, right?)

Hemalurgy doesn't work like that. You can't pass on powers and traits gained from Hemalurgy. Set was trying to create a breeding program, kidnapping Allomancers (and those genealogically close to Spook) and force them to have kids.

Spoiler

Questioner

I wondered if an Inquisitor had children, if they would inherit stronger Inquisitor abilities, or if they would just inherit the lesser lines from being a Seeker, for example?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. I don't think I've ever been asked this before... The way Hemalurgy works, if you're not aware, you are taking someone else's soul, and you are basically nailing it to your soul... That won't affect the children. So you will have the weaker lines.

They have tried that. Unfortunately.

Berlin signing (May 14, 2019)

 

I have no idea what Sazed did to Koloss to make them work like that. This might be the result of "...complications" Brandon talked in earlier WoB (from 2012, but it's contradicted by recent WoB from 2019, posted above - I take that was as more valid), So Sazed just made them bread and the Koloss-blooded are a result of their DNA being damaged by spikes and this damage is passed onto their childs, or something like that:

Spoiler

zas678

You've said that Inquisitors could have children. Would those children have a better chance at being Allomancers compared to if they had the kids before they were Inquisitors?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but there also could be...complications.

/r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012)