Elantrian vs. Radiant. [SA 5 spoilers]

[Frustration]

So, I was bored.

Again.

 

So I thought back to some previous versus threads, because those are fun, and I remembered a Mistborn v. Elantrain thread, and thought: 'You know why don't we have a radiant v. elatrian thread, that seems much more balanced.'

 

So here we are. If an Elantrian and fifth ideal Radiant had a fight, who would win?

Edited September 14, 2023 by Frustration

[Stormlit Shard]

I haven't read Elantris in a while but it would still depend a lot on the Elantrian's drawings skill. If it's a 5th ideal radiant they would have been doing it for a while but an Elantrian could have been one for any amount of time. 

Which one has more investiture again? Its the Elantrian, right?

[alder24]

54 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So, I was bored.

Again.

So I thought back to some previous versus threads, because those are fun, and I remembered a Mistborn v. Elantrain thread, and thought: 'You know why don't we have a radiant v. elatrian thread, that seems much more balanced.'

So here we are. If an Elantrian and fifth ideal Radiant had a fight, who would win?

Merciful Domi, here we go again.

Where are they? Can Elantrain draw Aons without worrying about the Dor? Did they do the Shai thing and connect themself to the local area? Or are they working like Riina with an unspecified source of investiture? Or they are simply near Elantris with Radiants and their spren there? Without access to the Dor, Elantrian can't really do anything.

Does Elantrain have a bonded Seon?

Elantrians are very versatile, they can replicate any invested art with Aons, It takes them few moment to draw proper Aons, but in Elantris there are plates that you need to only touch to activate Aon - they can either have pre prepared ones for some basic abilities, or draw them to work like that behind a force shield (an Invested shield of light - Aon Edo). The force shield is another thing - we saw Hoid using it in Tress, and Shai used something similar, which sdfd very effective and could be drawn very quickly. I think that would be a good tactic to raise a force shield around them, draw more complicated Aons and attack Radiant with them. They can even drain Radiants out of investiture, immobilize them. They can soulcast, lightweave (per TLM ch 54 it takes only a second to create a lightweaving of a person), elsecall and even manipulate connection or curse them to leave them powerless. They need a few moments to draw proper Aons, but that's what a force shield is for.

But on the other hand Radiant has a Shardplate, which would provide protection from most direct forms of attacks or manipulations. That's a big advantage. For Elantrian to win they would have to crack the plate open to leech them out of Stormlight, manipulate their connection and curse them out of them. That would be hard but possible, like maybe by drawing a very powerful Aon Daa? Overall I think that would be generally a very even fight. It's hard for me to decide who would win, especially when I haven't read Elantris in a while.

[Trusk'our]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

So here we are. If an Elantrian and fifth ideal Radiant had a fight, who would win?

Interesting match up.

Well, it's going to depend on a number of factors, just like any other fight.

Let's assume that it's the standard 5th oath Radiant- okay, yeah, not standard seeing as almost no Radiant gets to that point. So they're a very powerful Radiant. 

Radiants are more combat oriented in their mindset than Elantrians; most Elantrians just want to do their own thing, but Radiants must progress a great deal (and gain lots of experience) to achieve the 5th oath. That's not to say that Elantians couldn't study and train for such a confrontation, just that most Elantrians probably won't, at least not to the same extent as a Radiant would.

Additionally, a Radiant's powers are quicker and easier to use than an Elantrian's, and their blades and plate make great counters against direct Elantrian assaults.

Now, Elantrians have far, far greater potential than any Radiant, save maybe for an Unchained Bondsmith; the Elantrian can draw Aons ahead of time to shape the battlefield, they can craft complex illusions, they can Soulcast objects, they can transform creatures, they can teleport, can craft AonDor infused magical objects, they can do many, many more things. Basically, if an Elantrian has enough time, determination, and Investiture, they can do pretty much anything short of dethroning a Shardic Vessel.

So most of the time, the 5th oath Radiant wins against the standard Elantrian due to their easier to master powers, Shardblade, Shardplate, and battle experience. But if an Elantrian really wants to win, they win.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Trusk'our

[bmcclure7]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

So, I was bored.

Again.

 

So I thought back to some previous versus threads, because those are fun, and I remembered a Mistborn v. Elantrain thread, and thought: 'You know why don't we have a radiant v. elatrian thread, that seems much more balanced.'

 

So here we are. If an Elantrian and fifth ideal Radiant had a fight, who would win?

No prep radiant, with prep Elantrian 

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Radiants are more combat oriented in their mindset than Elantrians; most Elantrians just want to do their own thing, but Radiants must progress a great deal (and gain lots of experience) to achieve the 5th oath. That's not to say that Elantians couldn't study and train for such a confrontation, just that most Elantrians probably won't, at least not to the same extent as a Radiant would.

I don't fully agree. Yes, Radiants are very combat oriented, and they will become proficient with Surges in just a few years or short decades. However, Elantrains are ageless. The average Elantrain will be hundreds if not thousands of years old. Even if they master one Aon per year, by the time they reach their average age, they will become extremely skillful with every Aon.

[Trusk'our]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I don't fully agree. Yes, Radiants are very combat oriented, and they will become proficient with Surges in just a few years or short decades. However, Elantrains are ageless. The average Elantrain will be hundreds if not thousands of years old. Even if they master one Aon per year, by the time they reach their average age, they will become extremely skillful with every Aon.

That's true, but Elantrian's Aons take time to draw, and every second counts in battle. That's not to say that AonDor is bad in battle- after all, Raoden used it fairly effectively- just that when compared to what the Radiant does it would be a bit slow. Of course, with proper preparation that becomes a non-issue since the Elantrian can make AonDor shortcuts ahead of time, sort of making a prewritten code for them to use easily.

The other big issue is that I have is that Elantrians aren't used to battle. That counts for a lot. The Elantrian is going to make rookie mistakes that the Radiant wouldn't make because the Radiant, though almost certainly much younger, is going to have more experience in that area. It doesn't matter if you've lived eight-hundred years, if you've never been in a war or major fight, you're simply not going to learn the things that those who have done that would have learned.

But, if an Elantrain put their mind to it and prepped themselves extensively enough with AonDor augmentation and warded the area they were going to fight the Radiant and whatnot the Elantrian would win hands down- there's just way too much that an Elantrian can do given enough Investiture and time, and there's not limitation to the number of Aons they can theoretically draw and what those Aons can do if properly drawn (though that assumes they also dont' have to scrounge for Investiture, such as if they were on another world). That's my take on it.

[Walter The Moral]

On 9/8/2023 at 9:01 PM, alder24 said:

For Elantrian to win they would have to crack the plate open to leech them out of Stormlight, manipulate their connection and curse them out of them. That would be hard but possible, like maybe by drawing a very powerful Aon Daa?

Could Aon Daa effect Shardplate? It seems like it sens a powerful blast of Investiture, and we know that Sharplate is hard to effect with Investiture. The Elantrian might have a better time soulcasting some air above the Radiant into a large stone and letting that fall on them, although I don't know how much that would do.

Also, I think that this is very dependant on the type of Radiant. If we look at Radiants as just having Blade and Plate, they're powerful, but they would also have access to the Surges.

I still think that the Elantrian would win, as they're just so powerful, but I just wanted to bring up some points as devil's advocate.

[alder24]

3 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

The other big issue is that I have is that Elantrians aren't used to battle.

With this part I agree. Elantrians aren't combat focused. While some of them will definitely fight from time to time in their thousands years of lifespan - Fjorden is a big danger for them and who knows what else was there in Selish history, and they do have a preferred offensive Aon, so I bet most of them will experience combat one in a while - but that's not something the average Elantrian would be proficient with. It's more comparable to Radiants of the past, Radiants living in between Desolations, most likely with no enemy to fight, not engaging in local conflicts etc. However those Radiants would still be trained in combat, duels and military tactics - Elantrans probably not. The sheer presence of Elantrians acted like a deterrent.

 

21 minutes ago, Walter The Moral said:

Could Aon Daa effect Shardplate? It seems like it sens a powerful blast of Investiture, and we know that Sharplate is hard to effect with Investiture.

Description from Coppermind: 

Quote

Aon Daa is the preferred offensive weapon of the Elantrians. When drawn successfully a burst of light is emitted that warps and twists the air around it. The light then strikes its target with considerable explosive force.

Explosive energy will surely crack and break a plate.

[Trusk'our]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The sheer presence of Elantrians acted like a deterrent.

Yup, which ironically would make them less capable when something that did want to mess them up came along.

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Explosive energy will surely crack and break a plate.

Yeah, Aon Daa at full power probably would be pretty damaging; it blasted Dakhor Monks that were all but impervious to normal blades to blackened bits of charred meat. . . not a good visualization.

Plate would probably fair somewhat better, but it wouldn't stand for more than a few hits I would think.

[NameIess]

Elantrians near Elantris are immortal, so they'd obviously win against anything besides an unchained Bondsmith. Even then, they'd have great odds. As for whether or not they can be similarly immortal in other places, we don't know for sure. Without access to investiture they could probably be killed eventually.

Now, something I'd like to point out is that compared to the amount of screentime Radiants have had, we've had barely anything for Elantrians. In the little screentime we have had with them however, they've done quite a few impressive feats including: turning Dahkor monks with heightened durability into mincemeat while being distant from the source of their power, Successfully creating a device that allows one to take up a Shard that's not connected to you, creating curses that do things such as turning people into animals (even cursing Hoid), and look into the future.

[Saxsoon]

Elantrians are kinda the if Batman has prep time meme. If the elantrian has time, especially if disguised to trick the Radiant. Absolutely the Elantrian

 

Anything else then Radiant

[Frustration]

On 9/9/2023 at 1:48 PM, Nameless* said:

Elantrians near Elantris are immortal, so they'd obviously win against anything besides an unchained Bondsmith. Even then, they'd have great odds. As for whether or not they can be similarly immortal in other places, we don't know for sure. Without access to investiture they could probably be killed eventually.

Not necessarily, Galladon's father died while in Elantris of a heart attack. Now he could have saved himself but chose to die, so there is that.

 

I'd be interested to see how Aon Edo interacted with shardblades, they could most definitely take a hit, the question being how many.

The other big question I have is how much protection Shardplate would offer from offensive Aons, Brandon has said that plate's investiture would have little interference with Aon Daa, so it would have to rely on its natural durability.

Spoiler

VindicationKnight

I know Invested objects and people are harder to effect with magic, but does that also apply to indirect magic, like using Aon Daa to strike someone in Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

It all depends on how the magics are trying to interact. In the case you mention, there would be little interference.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 24, 2015)

 

 

That out of the way I thought about how each fight would go.

Windrunner: This one I think the radiant could actually win, having the spren form a vacuum around the Elantrian's head and kill them by having their blood boil out of their bodies.

Skybreaker: Elantrians if I do recall can fly, I think a win for the skybreaker is possible, but highly unlikely.

Dustbringers: Elantrians will likely be hard pressed to lose to a Dustbringer, but if they can close the distance fast enough with Abrasion, they might be able to do it.

Edgedancers lack the offensive power to kill an Elantrian

Truthwatchers: Elantrians, so far as I recall do not have a way to see through illusions, so that could be a way to get around them.

Lightweavers: Same as Truthwatchers

Elsecallers: Soulcasting from the CR, while typically the best strategy would not work here, unless you could soulcast the air around their body into stone or something, that could work.

Willshapers: If you can drop an Elantrian into stone and immobilize them you can win, though as stated above, they might just decide to fly.

Stoneward: Same with Willshapers.

Bondsmiths: Elantrians might actually be one of the few things capable of beating a Bondsmith, assuming they can strip their powers, or prevent them from using it in some way. That said, it would be beyond difficult, and Bondsmiths pose an equal or greater threat to Elantrians.

[alder24]

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Windrunner: This one I think the radiant could actually win, having the spren form a vacuum around the Elantrian's head and kill them by having their blood boil out of their bodies.

Elantrains heals, because of the Dor. They can heal decapitation, this would be nothing more than inconvenience.

Spoiler

Halel (paraphrased)

If I were to cut an Elantrian's head off, would it still live? Just the head, the body, both or perhaps neither of them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The body would grow a new head, as most of the soul is in that part.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Truthwatchers: Elantrians, so far as I recall do not have a way to see through illusions, so that could be a way to get around them.

Blast them with fire, light or just create an investiture sucking Aon. And they can make their own illusions.

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Elsecallers: Soulcasting from the CR, while typically the best strategy would not work here, unless you could soulcast the air around their body into stone or something, that could work.

The Elsecaller has the advantage, as Elantrian needs to draw an Aon to soulcast, Elsecaller not.

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Willshapers: If you can drop an Elantrian into stone and immobilize them you can win, though as stated above, they might just decide to fly.

You would need to immobilize their hands.

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Bondsmiths: Elantrians might actually be one of the few things capable of beating a Bondsmith, assuming they can strip their powers, or prevent them from using it in some way. That said, it would be beyond difficult, and Bondsmiths pose an equal or greater threat to Elantrians.

Agree. Such fight would be legendary.

Edited September 11, 2023 by alder24

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Elantrains heals, because of the Dor. They can heal decapitation, this would be nothing more than inconvenience.

  Reveal hidden contents

Halel (paraphrased)

If I were to cut an Elantrian's head off, would it still live? Just the head, the body, both or perhaps neither of them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The body would grow a new head, as most of the soul is in that part.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

I'm imagining that would be after using an Aon, as Raoden's hands didn't heal, Galladon's father died, the skaze say that Elantrians can be killed, etc.

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Agree. Such fight would be legendary.

Spoiler

 

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I'm imagining that would be after using an Aon, as Raoden's hands didn't heal, Galladon's father died, the skaze say that Elantrians can be killed, etc.

Yes, Elantrians can be killed and can die of illness, but a decapitated Elantrian can't draw an Aon - it has to be healing from the Dor itself. Their bodies are literally fueled by the Dor. I don't remember Raoden's hand, was it at the very end, away from Elantris? That would explain why he didn't heal so fast as he was so far away from the city. The WoB specifically said "the body would grow a new head" not somebody can heal them, but the body itself would just grow it (it's the same what Hoid did in some non official story). I think they just heal naturally and that's just more op than Radiant's healing (weren't Elantrains being burned alive at the end just before Raoden restored Elantris? I haven't read it in a while).

Edit: Elantris prologue

Quote

Legends claim that they were immortal, or at least nearly so. Their bodies healed quickly, and they were blessed with great strength, insight, and speed.

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by alder24

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

That would explain why he didn't heal so fast as he was so far away from the city. The WoB specifically said "the body would grow a new head" not somebody can heal them, but the body itself would just grow it (it's the same what Hoid did in some non official story). 

The WoB is also paraphrased, so what it says is not necessarily what Brandon said.

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't remember Raoden's hand, was it at the very end, away from Elantris?

Yeah it was in Teod.

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, Elantrians can be killed and can die of illness, but a decapitated Elantrian can't draw an Aon - it has to be healing from the Dor itself. Their bodies are literally fueled by the Dor.

If the Dor autoheals decapitation why wouldn't it heal illness? 

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 I think they just heal naturally and that's just more op than Radiant's healing (weren't Elantrains being burned alive at the end just before Raoden restored Elantris? I haven't read it in a while).

Right before the city came online, but that also had a massive surge of power with it.

[alder24]

Just now, Frustration said:

If the Dor autoheals decapitation why wouldn't it heal illness? 

Preception? No other idea tbf.

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Right before the city came online, but that also had a massive surge of power with it.

Yes, I've found it. They literally stepped out of the fire unharmed ch 61:

Quote

His mouth opened in amazement as he stared at the pyre of corpses—and the shadows moving within it.
Slowly, their bodies glistening with a light both more luminous and more powerful than the flames around them, the Elantrians began to step from the blaze, unharmed by its heat.

No air would do nothing to them, Dor would heal them immediately (if they're close to Elantris).

[Duxredux]

I'm leaning Elantrian. I'm looking at the end of Elantris and the Dakhor got pulped. Yes, surprise and a decade of complacency were on the Elantrian's side, but with the exception of Eondel's soldiers the entire country of Arelon was woefully unprepared for any sort of military conflict. The vast majority of Elantrians had little or no combat training, a couple of Aons that they had learned by rote, and they were facing Dakhor monks literally trained as super soldiers. They wiped the floor with them.

Raoden had what, barely 3 months to learn and accomplish everything that he did? We've only gotten bare glimpses of fully trained Elantrians with full access to their power in action and we still consider them formidable. At present the only personal enhancement Aon we only know of Ene which removes mental fatigue, provides clarity of thought, and accelerates memorization. If there are more that can grant other abilities similar to A-Pewter, A-Tin, or anything like that, they'll become even more formidable.

Basically, with how little we've seen of them and how poorly trained most of them were, unless Brandon has been hiding something that nerfs them, I expect them to get more powerful than what we've seen, not less.

[therunner]

Just my 2 cents.

1) In or near functional Elantris, Elantrians are basically unbeatable. Their power is amplified beyond its natural maximum by Elantris itself, so they can do insane things. The healing is quite possibly also put into overdrive by Elantris. And they have all the Investiture they could want.

2) In or near functional Urithiru/Sibling, Radiants are basically unbeatable. SA5 spoilers

Spoiler

Their surges are stronger, can last indefinitely from ambient Investiture and Radiants unlimited Investiture available. So Surges are stronger, they can heal basically anything and they don't have to care about Investiture stores at all.

So I would think battle outside of these two places is the one most interesting.  There Elantrians couldn't just autoheal decapitation (as Raoden's hands example shows), and their powers would be at their 'natural' strength, not amplified by Elantris.

In that situation, while Elantrian can do anything Radiant can do, they probably don't have all such Aonic programs pre-prepared, and they would not be as skilled as Radiant. Elantrians are generalists, with few specializations, so Radiant will be superior in their specialization (if more limited). E.g. Windrunner will fly better than Elantrian, Elsecaller will be more skilled in Soulcasting etc.

Best bet is to close the distance and use Shardblade. However, teleportation makes it difficult, so covering up approach, or somehow preventing Elantrian from teleporting would be crucial.


Out of the box strategy: Radiant uses surges to damage topography near Elantris, rendering Elantrians (at least those on Sel, possibly all in Physical Realm) Hoed.

Edited September 12, 2023 by therunner

[NameIess]

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

If the Dor autoheals decapitation why wouldn't it heal illness? 

Because the Elantrian didn’t want it to. It’s also possible that some age-related illnesses wouldn’t be healed.

[Frustration]

12 hours ago, Nameless* said:

Because the Elantrian didn’t want it to. It’s also possible that some age-related illnesses wouldn’t be healed.

Wayne doesn't want Alcohol to be healed, but it is anyway.

And he woke up to it happening, why wouldn't it have healed it before he decided he wanted to die?

 

Besides as @therunner pointed put they both have cities that give them huge advantages, we should consider them outside of those environents.

[Trusk'our]

20 hours ago, therunner said:

2) In or near functional Urithiru/Sibling, Radiants are basically unbeatable. SA5 spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

Their surges are stronger, can last indefinitely from ambient Investiture and Radiants unlimited Investiture available. So Surges are stronger, they can heal basically anything and they don't have to care about Investiture stores at all.

 

Spoiler

I don't recall the Tower augmenting the Radiants in that way, nor it giving them unlimited stores of Light. Where did you get this information?

Also, I'm fairly certain that these don't have to be in a spoiler box since this is on the Cosmere discussion board.

 

[therunner]

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

  Hide contents

I don't recall the Tower augmenting the Radiants in that way, nor it giving them unlimited stores of Light. Where did you get this information?

Also, I'm fairly certain that these don't have to be in a spoiler box since this is on the Cosmere discussion board.

 

Read the SA5 chapter readings, specifically Kaladin one (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/503-fanx-2022/#e15780)
And since it is unreleased work, I think keeping it as spoiler is valid

Spoiler

Kaladin flies around and does not have to care about Investiture as it is either getting replenished or he is not using it up at all, and mentions that external Surges last indefinitely.

" Kaladin had stuck it there with a Lashing last night after Teft's funeral, testing something he'd been told by the others: Urithiru was awake now, with its own Bondsmith, and things were... different. That Lashing he had used should have run out after minutes; yet here this one was, ten hours later, still going strong. The extended powers only worked in the city, but he could already see that going forward, this would be a very different place to live. "


" Kal didn't fall, though, continuing to hover. Because, why not? It felt like he wasn't even using up his Stormlight; or if he was, it was constantly replenished, like what happened when Dalinar opened a perpendicularity. "


I think it makes more sense he is getting constantly replenished, which means that within Urithiru Radiants should be literally unkillable, just like Elantrians in Elantris.

Elsecaller in Urithiru would be an utter monster now, they could do what Jasnah did in Oathbringer all the time.

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by therunner

[Trusk'our]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Read the SA5 chapter readings, specifically Kaladin one (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/503-fanx-2022/#e15780)
And since it is unreleased work, I think keeping it as spoiler is valid

  Hide contents

Kaladin flies around and does not have to care about Investiture as it is either getting replenished or he is not using it up at all, and mentions that external Surges last indefinitely.

" Kaladin had stuck it there with a Lashing last night after Teft's funeral, testing something he'd been told by the others: Urithiru was awake now, with its own Bondsmith, and things were... different. That Lashing he had used should have run out after minutes; yet here this one was, ten hours later, still going strong. The extended powers only worked in the city, but he could already see that going forward, this would be a very different place to live. "


" Kal didn't fall, though, continuing to hover. Because, why not? It felt like he wasn't even using up his Stormlight; or if he was, it was constantly replenished, like what happened when Dalinar opened a perpendicularity. "


I think it makes more sense he is getting constantly replenished, which means that within Urithiru Radiants should be literally unkillable, just like Elantrians in Elantris.

Elsecaller in Urithiru would be an utter monster now, they could do what Jasnah did in Oathbringer all the time.

 

Spoiler

Ah, yes, I see now. I didn't know this existed until about ten minutes ago.

Yup, Radiants get renewing light to themselves while in the Tower.

And keeping it inside a spoiler box was the right idea too.

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Trusk'our