Theory: Vasher's Reason for Returning

[Authorspren]

Ok, this is going to be long, so TL;DR at the bottom. Also, just so no one accidentally gets spoilers, this contains full spoilers for Warbreaker and some for Stormlight Archive.

 

Now that that's out of the way, we can get to the good stuff. Why did Vasher return?

 

We know it wasn't an accident, since Returning only happens if the Returned actually chooses to Return. According to WOBs, Endowment chooses them, shows them a vision of the future, and lets them decide if they want to come back and change the future. Therefore, Vasher returned for a specific reason. We know that this reason had nothing to do with Warbreaker, because according to WOB,

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Vetterlinj

Has Vasher accomplished what he Returned to do? If he has not, has he had the opportunity?

Brandon Sanderson

No, + not really.

RoW Release Party (Nov. 17, 2020)

 

We know he hasn't had the opportunity to do what he Returned to do. But we can still guess at what he Returned to do.

What do Returned actually do on Nalthis? From the Lightsong POVs in Warbreaker, we know that they all hear petitions to heal people by giving away their Breath. This is something that, at least on Nalthis, only Returned can do. Because of this, it's probably the reason that the majority of them returned. We know that Lightsong at least returned for this reason, and that most Returned - even God-Kings - do this eventually. Therefore, it's a pretty good possibility that Vasher also returned to heal someone that couldn't be healed in any other way. If this is true, and he hasn't had the opportunity to accomplish what he Returned to do, it might only be because he hasn't encountered the person he's meant to heal yet.

Now, completely changing gears, let's talk about what else Vasher has. Breaths. He can Awaken things by Commanding them. Further, he still has some Breaths left on Roshar, as seen during the sparring match with Kaladin and the cloth. That's about all that's currently relevant, because we're moving into the second half of the theory - which has interesting parallels between Lightsong and Susebron.

Imagine Vasher as Lightsong. Both are Returned, both hold Breaths, and both can heal nearly any injury. (In fact, Divine Breath is more powerful than Radiant healing). Now, who could the God-King in this scenario be? Someone with an unhealable injury, with access to immense power through Commands, but with no way to use or control it?

Rysn. Bearer of a Dawnshard, one of the most powerful Commands in the Cosmere.

If Vasher transfers his Divine Breath to Rysn, lots of fun stuff happens. Rysn's legs cannot be healed by anything but possibly the most powerful healing, so the Divine Breath might be able to restore the use of her legs. But, regardless of whether or not her legs are healed, Rysn could gain access to all of Vasher's other Breaths as well. Rysn was forbidden from bonding a spren, not gaining access to other forms of Investiture. And both Dawnshards and Awakening are related to Commands, and both Dawnshards and Breaths give Heightening-like effects. Therefore, Rysn at instant 5th Heightening from the Divine Breath might even be able to use the power of the Dawnshard, which Brandon Sanderson gave her for a reason.

Needless to say, such a massive power boost would be a major factor in the future of Roshar, and Vasher is pretty much the only one on Roshar realistically capable of Investing Rysn without her bonding a spren. It's probably even significant enough to get Endowment's attention, and definitely worth it for Vasher to Return to do it.

 

TL;DR: Vasher returned to Invest Rysn with his Breaths, which could conceivably allow her to use the Change Dawnshard.

[The flying spider he/him]

pretty cool theory but if would be a bit weird for vasher to die before we see him in the warbreaker sequel night blood which happens before stormlight.

[Treamayne]

Interesting theory. However, two of your premises are incorrect (not that they necessarily invalidate the theory)

5 hours ago, Authorspren said:

and that most Returned - even God-Kings - do this eventually

Most God Kings do not actually heal anybody. The Stories were just that - stories meant to obfuscate the transition from one God King to the next:

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Brandon Sanderson

Annotation to Chapter Fifty-Five

Treledees Almost Tells Siri How to Pass On the God King's Breath

We get to see more of Siri taking charge here. In this tense situation, a lot of others would have been reduced to hysterics, but she's come into her own, taking command, trying to get the information she needs.

Treledees lies to her here about two things. First off, he does know how a God King can have a child, but he knows that the secret is also held by a secure group of priests on the islands. He doesn't think letting Siri in on that one for now is a good idea. But he does want to pass on how to get Susebron's Breaths away from him, should it become necessary. He knows that those need to be passed on, even if the God King does have a child. That's the greater secret, but the one that needs to be known to Siri. Those Breaths cannot die with Susebron.

So, anyway, he's lying about the God King not being able to have a child. (Or at least he sidesteps it. He says that the God King can't sire a child, which is true unless certain steps are taken. He also says that he doesn't know how the First Returned bore a child, which is true—he doesn't know for certain if the First Returned used the same method that Treledees knows. He's also sidestepping the fact that he does believe that the blood of the First Returned flows in the veins of the royal Idrian line.)

So why not bring this up in the book? Well, I learned in Elantris that it's easy to overtwist an ending by having too many reveals. This is a very small point, and there is good rationalization for why Treledees doesn't let on what he knows. So I felt it was better to let the story stand as is, without delving into this.

Of course, there is a hint in the text about it—or at least a question. If they depended only on a Returned child taking Susebron's place, then why were they worried about Siri having sex with Susebron? They didn't need her to sleep with him unless they expected that sex to do something.

I'm sorry to leave this issue a mystery, and I'm even more sorry to not explain how Susebron can give away his Breaths. It's not important to this book, and so I felt that having Treledees give the explanation here would just bog things down. I'd rather wait until a sequel, where I detail the magic system in a more complete form, to give you these explanations.

That leaves us with the cliché of someone who almost passes on information, then dies. As I said, I am sorry to do this. I nearly didn't put it in, but I felt it very important to include something that let you know that the priests did have a way to get those Breaths.

Note that Treledees is not lying about letting Susebron live out his life with Siri in peace. They have allowed previous God Kings to do that, once they had a successor in place.

So, once a GK has passed on Peacegiver's Wealth, they are retired to an island to live out their lives and a story of why they "disappeared" is fabricated to preserve the religion.

5 hours ago, Authorspren said:

Rysn at instant 5th Heightening from the Divine Breath

The recipient of the healing does not receive the Divine Breath, because it is a Splinter of Endowment. It is expended in the healing process:

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Extesian

Can you give away a Divine Breath to another human? If so would they have the same powers as a Returned or would they just 'store' it like an inanimate object that Breath is stored in when not Awakened? Does a human require a 'crack' in their spirit web to receive a divine Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

So, a Divine Breath-- you're kind of going along the wrong direction on that line of reasoning. Divine Breaths cannot be transferred. When they are used they immediately become kinetic Investiture and are activated. This manifests normally as healing the person, both body, mind, and soul, but you can't give it up, transfer it in the same way you can regular Breaths.

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Brandon Sanderson

Annotations to Chapter Twelve

Lightsong Hears Petitions

I've always thought it was interesting conceptually, however, so I developed it into this book as an aspect of Returned that makes them different. They can create one miracle—and in this world, that one miracle has to be a healing. They can expend their divine Breath to heal someone.

 

The Theory is still interesting though.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Treamayne
Formatting

[alder24]

5 hours ago, Authorspren said:

Imagine Vasher as Lightsong. Both are Returned, both hold Breaths, and both can heal nearly any injury. (In fact, Divine Breath is more powerful than Radiant healing). Now, who could the God-King in this scenario be? Someone with an unhealable injury, with access to immense power through Commands, but with no way to use or control it?

Rysn. Bearer of a Dawnshard, one of the most powerful Commands in the Cosmere.

If Vasher transfers his Divine Breath to Rysn, lots of fun stuff happens. Rysn's legs cannot be healed by anything but possibly the most powerful healing, so the Divine Breath might be able to restore the use of her legs. But, regardless of whether or not her legs are healed, Rysn could gain access to all of Vasher's other Breaths as well. Rysn was forbidden from bonding a spren, not gaining access to other forms of Investiture. And both Dawnshards and Awakening are related to Commands, and both Dawnshards and Breaths give Heightening-like effects. Therefore, Rysn at instant 5th Heightening from the Divine Breath might even be able to use the power of the Dawnshard, which Brandon Sanderson gave her for a reason.

Needless to say, such a massive power boost would be a major factor in the future of Roshar, and Vasher is pretty much the only one on Roshar realistically capable of Investing Rysn without her bonding a spren. It's probably even significant enough to get Endowment's attention, and definitely worth it for Vasher to Return to do it.

TL;DR: Vasher returned to Invest Rysn with his Breaths, which could conceivably allow her to use the Change Dawnshard.

Interesting but that's not possible. I don't think Rysn needs healing. Judging from Hoid and his healing abilities, which came from Dawnshard, Rysn might be able to heal herself if she just changed her self-perception. As long as she views herself as a cripple, even a Divine Breath won't be able to heal her. 

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Questioner

Given Sanderson's Laws about limitations...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

What would you say are any spiritual, cognitive, and or physical limitations to a Returned's healing ability?

Brandon Sanderson

That they can do it once.

Questioner

That they can do it once, and that's it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, right? The Returned get one heal and then they die. That's a pretty big limitation. Like you have to choose really well. However, what they can heal is bounded by cosmere limitations on healing, but it is a supercharged version.

Questioner

Okay. Could you define more cosmere limitations on healing?

Brandon Sanderson

Cosmere limitations on healing can be affected by your own perception.

Questioner

Okay. Cognitive stuff.

Brandon Sanderson

Cognitive stuff. And so there's a part of that, and... But that's really-- cognitive interferes. And if your spirit is gone? Right? Cosmere healing, you know, if your spirit is passed on you just get a dead body even though you've healed it.

Questioner

So potentially Vasher, having a much greater cosmere knowledge than others could potentially have a much greater usage of that healing than regular--

Brandon Sanderson

Well the healing-- What I mean by that is yourself. You impose limits. So the person being healed can impose some limits on the healing working. It doesn't happen as often as I'm making it sound. But, you know-- why Kaladin's scars have not healed, right? So Kaladin being hit by a Returned would still not heal his scars. He's got a major hangup about those scars.

Footnote: The questioner seems to have been asking about cosmere healing in general for Returned, but Brandon focused on their ability to give up their Divine Breath to heal somebody else.
Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

If she were to get just regular Breaths from Vasher, she could use them with Dawnshard. But Divine Breath doesn't stick with a healed person. There is no need for Vasher to give up his Divine Breath for Rysn yet. But with Divine Breath you can do something else than just healing:

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Questioner

When you transfer divine Breath, is it possible to have it result in something other than healing?

Brandon Sanderson

Lots of things are possible. Let's just say that that is not something people know how to do, and they have tried to do something else.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ he/him]

Reading through this I just got an idea.

 

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Extesian

Can you give away a Divine Breath to another human? If so would they have the same powers as a Returned or would they just 'store' it like an inanimate object that Breath is stored in when not Awakened? Does a human require a 'crack' in their spirit web to receive a divine Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

So, a Divine Breath-- you're kind of going along the wrong direction on that line of reasoning. Divine Breaths cannot be transferred. When they are used they immediately become kinetic Investitureand are activated. This manifests normally as healing the person, both body, mind, and soul, but you can't give it up, transfer it in the same way you can regular Breaths.

 

Who is mad right now but they need and are trying to get sane, becasuse it would help a ton? Ishar. He tells them that they need to get him sane for him to do his “solution”. And if the breath can heal the mind and the soul, it could heal maddness.

The only objection I have to Both Rysn and Ishar, is that Endowment is the one ti send people back. And even though the shard has impeccable future sight, that would be insane for it to be predicting all of this: Ryns getting the dawnshard and Ishar coming and doing what he tries to do.

Also I don’t know why this is formatted weird and has empty boxes. It doesn’t when I edit it.

Edited August 24, 2023 by ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ

[Firesong she/her]

39 minutes ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said:

Reading through this I just got an idea.

 

Who is mad right now but they need and are trying to get sane, becasuse it would help a ton? Ishar. He tells them that they need to get him sane for him to do his “solution”. And if the breath can heal the mind and the soul, it could heal maddness.

The only objection I have to Both Rysn and Ishar, is that Endowment is the one ti send people back. And even though the shard has impeccable future sight, that would be insane for it to be predicting all of this: Ryns getting the dawnshard and Ishar coming and doing what he tries to do.

Also I don’t know why this is formatted weird and has empty boxes. It doesn’t when I edit it.

I highly doubt this would happen, due to what they established about how the madness can be temporarily healed (Radiants swearing Oaths in their proximity), and due to the implications that it probably is connected to BAM, who is going to be a central point of SA5, most likely. I doubt they would make it come down to a Divine Breath. 

[Thanatos]

Vasher might use his divine breath on the Storm Father with Dalinar uniting the Shards of Honor making Tanavast re-assend to who he used to be. Honor.

Cultivation could give him a body during this process. 

A possibility.

When was Vasher born and when did Honor shatter?

How close were Tanavast and Edgli?

 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

Vasher might use his divine breath on the Storm Father with Dalinar uniting the Shards of Honor making Tanavast re-assend to who he used to be. Honor.

A Divine Breath is nothing compared to the power that Stormfather holds, not to mention a full Shard. It won't change anything. Tanavast is dead and gone. He ain't coming back. Plus a Divine Breath can't bring the dead back to life.

Spoiler

Wetlander

Did the Splintering happen before the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

I will reveal this as we go. However, be aware that in the past, when a Shard was killed, the person holding it, it is a slow burn to actually kill someone; because power cannot be destroyed. So, what it means to be killed means something a little different in these cases.

Hoser

Did Tanavast survive Honor's splintering?

Brandon Sanderson

Tanavast is dead. Good question. However, that is as of the start of The Way of Kings.

Hoser

So he could have survived the Splintering...

Brandon Sanderson

He could have survived the Splintering.

Hoser

...as a mortal...

Brandon Sanderson

Well, he could have survived for a time, but then he could not have then...

Hoser

...passed away in his sleep...

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Is Honor still alive?

Brandon Sanderson

Honor? Honor's dead.

Questioner

What about Tanavast?

Brandon Sanderson

So, um, you can assume that there is no funny business going on there.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

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drabgod

When a Returned who has lots of extra Breath gives them away without suppressing his Divine Breath, does the Divine Breath stick to the regular Breath as they are transferred to the receiver? Will the receiver find himself suddenly possessing a Divine Breath? Or does it still vanish after healing the receiver?

Brandon Sanderson

Divine Breaths don't work quite like others. However, losing one is kind of a "Last resort." You'll give away all the others first, and then, if you push you can give it away as well. It never sticks around and makes the person you choose returned.

drabgod

Could you use it to heal Preservation's mind? (potentially with the Well)

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on what you mean by "Preservation's Mind." Do you mean Leras? During the events of Well/HoA he's WELL beyond the help of such a small bit of investiture, as available in a single Divine Breath. With the help of the Well itself? That's more realistic, but the real reason that he was suffering from such degradation was due to persistent attacks by Ruin.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 24, 2015)

 

1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

When was Vasher born and when did Honor shatter?

Long after. Honor was Splintered around 2500 years before WoK, around the time of Recreance, Warbreaker takes place only "few generations" before WoK, and Vasher was one of the Five Scholars, he was around 300 years old by the time of Warbreaker. Those events are not aligned.

1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

How close were Tanavast and Edgli?

Tanavast wasn't close with Edgli, he was close with Koravellium Avast, the Vessel of Cultivation:

Spoiler

StormAtlas (paraphrased)

Were Cultivation and Honor romantically involved?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Rithmatist Albuquerque signing (May 22, 2013)

 

[Scars of Hathsin he/him]

I agree with Alder24, Tanavast will not return, as this does not seem something that would happen in the books. As some people in the books are extremely close to Honour, and then Tanavast just coming in again will ruin that I think.