Firesong Posted August 26, 2023 Report Share Posted August 26, 2023 Yeah, I don't see how it is Deus ex Machina in the slightest, it was very heavily implied since as far back was Well of Ascension, and then Warbreaker and Stormlight established the ideas of Cognitive Shadows to give further evidence of it being possible for him to survive, then SoS explicitly said he continued to exist which gave explanations to a ton of things throughout MB2 and MB3. I feel it was very well established, and Kelsier being "alive" wasn't really meant to be a bombshell at all. What was meant to be the twist was Kelsier being the Sovereign. And I still don't get why we would have needed every answer in TLM, like, it simply wasn't about him and it would have ruined the flow of the story to be like "okay, lets dig into the backstory of this side-character" (while he is very important, within the context of TLM itself, he was a side-character), especially considering the fact that the PoV we see him through would have no reason to ask how he is alive. Think of it like this, if a Christian were to see Jesus rise from the dead, they wouldn't be wondering "by what cosmological and spiritual mechanisms did you achieve this feat?" they would assume it is inherently because of who he is. It would be a similar idea with Marasi seeing Kelsier alive and in the flesh, she would assume "it is because he is the Survivor". (not putting them on the same level, of course, just saying that the idea is similar in concept) Thus, it wouldn't make sense for her to ask him, and thus it wouldn't make sense to go into a side-tangent explaining it. In terms of the epilogue from his perspective, it would not make sense to come up as they are both very aware of how he did it, and it was also not the topic of conversation. This is the logical Watsonian explanation. The Doylist explanation is the same thing, it would not make sense to dig into the backstory of a side-character like that, it would ruin the flow for no real reason, and it would take away any possible big Kelsier reveals from Era 3, in which he would be a central figure. Furthermore, Era 2 was made to act as worldbuilding and plot setup for Era 3, and it also technically wasn't even planned to exist at all*, TLM especially was basically a stepping stone between 2 and 3**. It is almost like a sort of Era 3 Book 0, a sort of prologue or narrative connective tissue. We are not supposed to be getting full and complete answers yet, and I am happy about that. It is supposed to make us more excited about Era 3 and a (potential) SH2. And on Annotations, those aren't the same as normal WoBs, which can change pretty easily. Annotations are meant to be completely canonical statements on the books, as a way to add information that he couldn't find a way to fit in naturally. So you can safely view those as a canonical source of information even if you dislike WoBs. * Basically, AoL was written as Brandon was going to take a while to get back to Era 2 (as Era 3 was originally called), and wanted to give us a shorter novel in the world to keep us up on some developments and tide us over a bit until Era 2. But he loved the setting and characters enough he felt that he could make a trilogy out of it, also thinking it would be good to set up more of the world and help establish Era 2 far more in a way he feels would strengthen it, and the Inter-Era narrative arc as a whole. Thus SoS, BoM, and TLM were plotted as a trilogy, and Era 1.5 became Era 2, and Era 2 became Era 3. This is why Era 2 is randomly a tetralogy. ** As Era 3 is going to be focused a ton on Trell, Kelsier, and the Ghostbloods (heck, he is calling the trilogy Mistborn: Ghostbloods). Which we only got a taste of in Era 2. It also established Investiture Nukes and conflict between the Malwish Consortium and Elendel Basin (and also people wanting to succeed from the Elendel Basin as a nation), which I feel would be very relevant to Era 3 as Brandon has compared it to the Cold War, where nuclear threat and MAD became a very major theme in international geopolitics. So, ultimately, Era 2 as a whole, but especially TLM, were meant primarily as a thematic setup for Era 3. It also possibly established a setup for the story of Aether of Night (the rewrite), with mentions of the Dark Aether. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ale the Metallic Conjurer Posted September 2, 2023 Report Share Posted September 2, 2023 (edited) On 8/24/2023 at 4:07 AM, TheWisestBear said: - I didn't buy the point about gender-neutral pronouns in the prophecies referring to Sazed being a eunuch. He was referred to as masculine, and probably still considered himself to be masculine. It was a ploy to get us distracted about Vin possibly being the Hero of Ages, but it does injustice to people who have been mutilated against their will to suddenly change their gender identity. This is a valid thing to critique. However, there's a plot reason for this. 1. Ruin was altering the Prophecies. I don't remember the context for the gender-neutral pronouns. But if his manipulation was anything like his altering of Kwaan's inscription, then he would've been changing the Prophecies to encourage the idea that the Hero of Ages isn't necessarily male. This would've allowed him to groom events to plant his desired pawns like Alendi and Vin 2. Preservation created the Prophecies. In which case, he would've been planning for a lot of history, pawns, and Ruin's scheming. In fact, we don't know the original form of the Prophecies. But he likely crafted them to be vague as possible. As for my criticisms, I got a few. The only Cosmere I’ve finished is the MB trilogy, Elantris and Emperor’s Soul. So my opinions will focus on that. The worldbuilding and stakes of Mistborn suffers from a few issues, especially in relation to the behind-the-scenes history of Ruin and Preservation. In hindsight, the sociology of the Final Empire sucks. We don’t know how it recruits so many soldiers or gathers so many skaa captives, where koloss are kept, what crops are produced on plantations etc… We barely know anything about the Terris or most Dominances, or how Ruin affected them after his release. Hell, we don’t even know how the Steel Inquisitors were damaging the world under Ruin’s command. It’s hard for me to care about Kwaan or Alendi, or take Sazed’s claims about Rashek being a good man seriously, because we barely know anything about their era or true personalities. We know there were “fourteen lands” and looking back at the TFE epigraphs, it feels like Preservation programmed the Deepness to be much more dangerous back then. But we only have a few sources of info on their era, one of which could’ve been subtly changed by Ruin to present Rashek in a worse light. We can probably trust Sazed’s claim, since he has access to the full knowledge and history of Scadrial and its creator-Shards, along with the memories and thoughts of Rashek. But that’s just it, a possibility. I thought Ruin was much more scary when he was imprisoned. Despite being imprisoned, it felt like he was patiently and efficiently manipulating everyone and everything in Terris. In The Hero of Ages his control over Hemalurgy was scary, but I didn’t feel a similar amount of dread and competence. I know there’s stuff going on like having worse precognition than Preservation, but I think Ruin runs into the same problems as other fictional deities I’ve seen - competence and planning abilities being nerfed for the sake of the protagonists winning. Albeit, on a lesser scale. He’s the Shard of Ruin, yet all he did was affect the Ashmounts and cause minor earthquakes. He’s supposed to have precognition to have some extent, but he’s constantly failing. He goes from manipulating cultures to make Hemalurgy part of them or subtly fabricating Eleventh Metal stories in the North, to completely ignoring kandra who are paid in atium. I know there's something something worse precognition. Something something Secret History. But I can only take so much BS from antagonists being fooled, before it feels like they're being unnecessarily neutered. I don't know what Ruin did the outer Dominances or areas outside of the Empire, so he doesn't feel like the god of destruction. He was never shown or implied to see into the future, so it comes across as him having worse precognition than a mortal. The message of Scadrial finally being at peace once decay and stasis come together, is undercut by Preservation being too much of “the good guy.” IMO it would’ve been more effective if he was completely behind the Deepness enveloping the world, or explicitly manipulated Rashek into committing atrocities for the sake of the status quo. I don't particularly care if he was dying. He was clearly capable of some actions since the Deepness came into the world 1000 years ago. Edited September 2, 2023 by Ale the Metallic Conjurer 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted September 2, 2023 Report Share Posted September 2, 2023 9 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: In hindsight, the sociology of the Final Empire sucks. It’s hard for me to care about Kwaan or Alendi, or take Sazed’s claims about Rashek being a good man seriously, because we barely know anything about their era or true personalities. Have you read the annotations to Era 1? Much of the information that Brandon could not fit in the books themselves (due to plot and pacing issues) is found in these annotations that he wrote while doing the final copy-edit before publication. 9 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: it feels like Preservation programmed the Deepness to be much more dangerous back then. It was Ruin, not preservation, that turned the Mists into the Deepness. This was covered in the HoA Ch 81 Epigraph: Spoiler The people misinterpreted the mists’ intent, as the process of Snapping Allomancers caused some—particularly the young and the old—to die. This hadn’t been Preservation’s desire, but he’d given up most of his consciousness to form Ruin’s prison, and the mists had to be left to work as best they could without specific direction. Ruin, subtle as ever, knew that he couldn’t stop the mists from doing their work. However, he could do the unexpected and encourage them. And so, he helped make them stronger. That brought death to the plants of the world, and created the threat that became known as the Deepness. 9 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: I thought Ruin was much more scary when he was imprisoned. <Snip> Preservation being too much of “the good guy.” Sorry you felt that way, but I can see why you do. I felt that there was enough evidence that Preservation/Ruin did not equal good/evil. Especially with Sazed's discussions with the First Generation and the events shown in Secret History. But can can see how that might not be enough for some readers, especially since all of the viewpoints are from the forces opposing Ruin, and therefore paint Ruin with the "black-hat brush." 9 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: I thought Ruin was much more scary when he was imprisoned. He was certainly more insidious. To me, his actions in HoA felt much more like a bully that wanted to taunt his "victims." A Megalomaniac that, having achieved his short term goal, wanted to gloat before delivering the death stroke. I think that at least part of that characterization by Brandon was purposeful to illustrate that a Shard's vessel, despite being a god in many ways, still can harbour many mortal flaws. One of Brndon's themes for the Cosmere as a whole is "what happens to Mortals who aquire god-like power." WoBs: Spoiler Quote Brandon Sanderson Flawed characters are just way more interesting to write, and I gravitated to it pretty naturally as I was building the magic of the cosmere. And I would say it was mostly narrative reasons, as opposed to, when I was building the magic, some rule that felt like it needed to be there. But it's also a little of a balancing factor. It's trying to build into--whoever asked the question about the god--having god-like powers, but their flaws making it hard for them to use it. It's a check on giving the powers to my characters, if I make sure to establish, this character has some holes in their-- some gaps and flaws in who they are, that might make them use their powers wrong once they get them, and that is in some way a narrative check on that, if that makes sense. Quote Brandon Sanderson And it's part of what made me want to link the Cosmere together. I kept having these stories where I wanted to tell stories about these kind of divine forces, the powers of gods put in the hands of mortals: what does that do? That's a common theme that started showing up in the stories that I was writing before I got published. And I said, "Well, if it's a theme, it's something you're really interested in, why not build it into the entire continuity?" And that's where the idea of the Shards came from, and creating Shadesmar and all of that. It grew out of things I did naturally and saw as themes in my writing. Thank you for your insights. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted September 2, 2023 Report Share Posted September 2, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: As for my criticisms, I got a few. The only Cosmere I’ve finished is the MB trilogy, Elantris and Emperor’s Soul. So my opinions will focus on that. The worldbuilding and stakes of Mistborn suffers from a few issues, especially in relation to the behind-the-scenes history of Ruin and Preservation. I second @Treamayne, Mistborn Annotations contain lots of information that would clear up some confusion and explore the world more. 12 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: In hindsight, the sociology of the Final Empire sucks. We don’t know how it recruits so many soldiers or gathers so many skaa captives, where koloss are kept, what crops are produced on plantations etc… We barely know anything about the Terris or most Dominances, or how Ruin affected them after his release. Hell, we don’t even know how the Steel Inquisitors were damaging the world under Ruin’s command. Skaa weren't captives, they were an enslaved class of society. Like Serfs in Tsarist Russia but worse. All Skaa were the property of the Lord Ruler, used by nobles. Most of them were living on plantations, others were working in mines or factories in cities, only a lucky few were allowed to have their own workshops, like Clubs. But he was still Skaa, still a property of the Lord Ruler. He didn't need to gather them, they were all already his. It doesn't matter what was produced on plantations, it wasn't one thing, the empire needed everything, from plant-based food, animal products to plant-based fabrics etc - those would be grown in plantations. The purpose of plantations in the story is to show how badly Skaa are treated. We know how TLM was recruiting so many soldiers - paying them. Skaa who wanted to have a better quality of life could draft into the army and get paid more. That's simply. Of course most Skaa despise the army, but some would be desperate enough to join and serve. Koloss were kept on the outskirts of the empire, near its borders, far away from population centers. It was explained in TFE and WoA. Beyond the borders of the Final Empire there were people living who defiled the rule of the Lord Ruler, having their own party, threatening the region - that's why Koloss were kept close to borders to fight those people, and suppress rebellions (as that far away from the center of the empire, people were more willing to rebel). Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Human's Origin Human is a very special koloss. He's quite a bit older than most, his creation running all the way back to before the Lord Ruler's death. He was originally the leader of a rebellion out in the southeast—the same area where Clubs spent his youth fighting. Human, then known as Vershad, was one of the more successful leaders of the wasted men—those who live out in the desert outside the borders of the Final Empire, but come in to raid and steal supplies from outlying villages. Charismatic and intelligent, he managed to keep his band alive even once the Lord Ruler turned his attention on them. Rather than ravaging villages, Vershad would convert them—quietly, carefully—to his side and get them to give him supplies. In turn, he would "raid" them and destroy the lords' mansions, causing chaos and letting the people get a sideways revenge against their masters. In the chaos, it would be assumed that the raiders got away with the skaa food, and it would be replenished. The Lord Ruler tired of such games and eventually sent his koloss against Vershad and his men. As clever as they were, they weren't able to stand against a well-laid betrayal and ambush set by an Inquisitor—one who controlled a troop of koloss. The raiders were slaughtered, and Vershad himself was turned into a koloss for his crimes. He retained enough of his determination and his intelligence, however, to make a remarkably clever koloss. (There is some variety to koloss, based on who they were before the transformation.) The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 10, 2009) We know how Ruin affected Terris people, even before his release - inquisitors attack them and imprison all Keepers, to spike them later. While Ruin was still imprisoned at that time, we know from the example of Marsh that he had some level of control over them, and from SH we know he was constantly talking to them, influencing their actions. Terrisans escaped this and settled near the Pits of Hathsin, given to them by Elend. They mostly remained isolated from what was happening in the world until Ruin realized where Atium was. We also know what Ruin was doing in other Dominances - Udeau and Fadrex for example. Mostly earthquakes, volcano eruptions and disasters like that, with many people in power spiked like Quellion or Penrod (he tried to spike Yomen but failed). But those two things aren't really relevant to the story, we saw from different PoV that destruction is happening everywhere, but our focus was on Vin/Elend and Sazed/Spook. We know how Inquisitors were "damaging the world" under Ruin's control - they were serving as his pawns, spiking people in power (like Penrod), killing Allomancers and Feruchemist to gain more powers, commanding army of Koloss - but mostly focusing on Elend and Vin. It was presented to us in HoA from Marsh PoV. 12 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: It’s hard for me to care about Kwaan or Alendi That's ok, you don't have to care about them, they serve different purposes in the story - to provide information necessary for the climax. Alendi's story foreshadows that the Lord Ruler is Rashek, while Kwaan's plate straight up tells you "not to trust anything that wasn't written in metal" and that Vin can't release the power. They aren't there so you should care about them, but draw connections between past events and present events. 12 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: or take Sazed’s claims about Rashek being a good man seriously, because we barely know anything about their era or true personalities. That's fair, Rashek is a conflicting person. He did many evil things in his life, but Sazed's claim comes from the fact that ultimately he was fighting against Ruin while being slowly driven to madness by him, and he did everything he could to ensure survival of his people, that despite abusive rule, he still cared about their survival. He created a plan that would distract Ruin and hid his Atium, he left messages in the caves for people to gain new powers/information, he created those caves to allow his people to live a few days longer. Of course that doesn't negate 1000 years of tyrannical rule and countless deaths he caused, you don’t have to agree that he was a good person, as we have solid arguments that he wasn’t. But his goals were good - to save humanity from Ruin. Give them a chance. We do know what was Rashak's personality - jealous and angry man, despising everything that is from different lands and not accepting that someone so weak like Alendi can be a Hero of Ages. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson The Inscription on the Cache's Steel Plate The Lord Ruler's words here are probably the most altruistic things he wrote in his entire life. Elend worries sometimes that he's becoming like the Lord Ruler, and the truth is that—in part—he is. The difference is that the Lord Ruler started out as a spiteful, petty man and learned through the power he held to be more responsible with it. Elend was a good-hearted, idealistic man—and leadership tempered him into someone a little more realistic. I guess I'm saying that power doesn't always have to corrupt. In many ways, I think it can change a man for the better. The Hero of Ages Annotations (Oct. 13, 2009) We also have the message left on the last plate, while his methods or rule were definitely cruel and evil, his goals to preserve humanity were good and he was constantly under Ruin's influence. Spoiler Quote I have failed you. I have planned these caverns, knowing a calamity is coming, hoping that I might find some secret that might be of use should I fall to the thing's scheming. Yet, I have nothing. I do not know how to defeat it. The only thing I can think of is to keep it at bay by taking the power at the Well for myself when it returns. However, if you are reading this, I have failed. That means I am dead. As I write this, I find that prospect to be less tragic than I might previously have assumed. I would rather not deal with the thing. It has been my constant companion, the voice that whispers to me always, telling me to destroy, begging me to give it freedom. I fear that it has corrupted my thoughts. It cannot sense what I think, but it can speak inside of my head. Eight hundred years of this has made it dif icult to trust my own mind. Sometimes, I hear the voices, and simply assume that I am mad. That would certainly be preferable. I do know that these words must be written in steel to be preserved. I have written them in a steel sheet, then ordered them scribed into a plate, knowing that in doing so, I reveal my weakness to my own priests. The thing has whispered to me that I am a fool to expose myself by writing this and letting others see it. That is primarily why I decided to go through with the creation of this plate. Doing so seemed to make the thing angry. That is reason enough, I think. It is good that some few of my loyal priests know of my weakness, if only for the good of the empire, should I somehow fall. I have tried to be a good ruler. At first, I was too young, too angry. I made mistakes. Yet, I have tried so hard. I nearly destroyed the world with my arrogance, and yet I fear I have nearly destroyed it again through my rule. I can do better. I will do better. I will create a land of order. The thoughts in my mind, however, make me wonder just how much of what I do has been twisted from my original intentions. At times, my empire seems a place of peace and justice. Yet, if that is so, why can I not stop the rebellions? They cannot defeat me, and I must order them slaughtered each time they rise up. Can they not see the perfection of my system? Regardless, this is not the place for justification. I need no justification, for I am—after a form—God. Yet, I know there is something greater than I. If I can be destroyed, It will be the cause of that destruction. I have no advice to give. It is more powerful than I am. It is more powerful than this world. It claims to have created this world, in fact. It will destroy us all eventually. Perhaps these stores will let mankind survive a little longer. Perhaps not. I am dead. I doubt that I should care. Still, I do. For you are my people. I am the Hero of Ages. That is what it must mean: Hero of Ages, a hero that lives through the ages, as I do. Know that the thing's power is not complete. Fortunately, I have hidden his body well. 12 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: it feels like Preservation programmed the Deepness to be much more dangerous back then. No, Preservation programmed Mists to snap people without his control and mind, they were doing what Preservation told them to do - but Ruin influenced that and made them stronger, causing more deaths. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Chapter Seventy The Reason for the Mistsickness So, it finally comes out. I wonder at this numbers plot, as I think many readers will glaze over it and ignore it. I think others will read into it and figure out what it means very quickly, then feel that the reveal here isn't much of a revelation. Hopefully I'll get a majority in the middle who read the clues, don't know what they mean, but are happily surprised when it comes together. That's a difficult line to walk sometimes. What is going on here is that the mists are awakening the Allomantic potential inside of people. It's very rough on a person for that to come out, and can cause death. Preservation set this all up before he gave his consciousness to imprison Ruin, so it's not a perfect system. It's like a machine left behind by its creator. The catalyst is the return of the power to the Well of Ascension. As soon as that power becomes full, it sets the mists to begin Snapping those who have the potential for Allomancy buried within them. Many of these people won't be very strong Allomancers. Their abilities were buried too deeply to have come out without the mists' intervention. Others will have a more typical level of power; they might have Snapped earlier, had they gone through enough anguish to bring the power out. My idea on this is that Allomantic potential is a little like a supersaturated solution. You can suspend a great deal of something like sugar in a liquid when it is hot, then cool it down and the sugar remains suspended. Drop one bit of sugar in there as a catalyst, however, and the rest will fall out as a precipitate. Allomancy is the same. It's in there, but it takes a reaction—in this case, physical anguish—to trigger it and bring it out. That's because the Allomantic power comes from the extra bit of Preservation inside of humans, that same extra bit that gives us free will. This bit is trapped between the opposing forces of Preservation and Ruin, and to come out and allow it the power to access metals and draw forth energy, it needs to fight its way through the piece of Ruin that is also there inside. As has been established, Ruin's control over creatures—and, indeed, an Allomancer's control over them—grows weaker when that creature is going through some extreme emotions. (Like the koloss blood frenzy.) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don't have time to speak right now. Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn't happen as frequently and is more difficult to control. The Hero of Ages Annotations (March 30, 2010) 12 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: I thought Ruin was much more scary when he was imprisoned. Despite being imprisoned, it felt like he was patiently and efficiently manipulating everyone and everything in Terris. In The Hero of Ages his control over Hemalurgy was scary, but I didn’t feel a similar amount of dread and competence. I get that, that's partially because Ruin already thought he won and he couldn't foresee his defeat. That's why he became "sloppy" and began to gloat. But in WoA Ruin was almost absent - only changes in text and one Mistspirit were a clue that something was manipulating them, not much more. HoA ch 57: Quote Why, Vin thought, it's gloating! That's why Ruin is here—because it wants to make certain that someone understands what it has accomplished! There was a feeling of pride and victory in Ruin's eyes. They were human emotions, emotions that Vin could understand. At that moment, Ruin stopped being an it in her mind, and instead became a he. [...] Vin felt a chill, realizing something. He had come to her, finally revealing himself, because she was captured. He thought that there was no further chance for mankind. He assumed that he had won. Which means that there is a way to beat him, she thought with determination. And it involves me. But I can't do it here, or he wouldn't have come to gloat. 12 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: I know there’s stuff going on like having worse precognition than Preservation, but I think Ruin runs into the same problems as other fictional deities I’ve seen - competence and planning abilities being nerfed for the sake of the protagonists winning. The precognition part is very important. Just like with Mistborn burning Atium, he can see a clear future only when nobody is also burning Atium - Preservation had his own future vision and was disrupting Ruin's precognition, making it very hard for him to predict what will happen. He could still see certain events and outcomes, but they were more uncertain, because of Preservation's presence. 12 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: He’s the Shard of Ruin, yet all he did was affect the Ashmounts and cause minor earthquakes. That's because all of his power was thrown to oppose Preservation and vice versa. He was incomplete and that's why he couldn't act. His power was binded in an eternal struggle of balance. Just like when Vin was trying to do something as Preservation and Ruin opposed her, but she was able to use a tiny bit of her power to talk to Elend, that's what Ruin was able to do - use only a tiny bit of his power that slipped behind Preservation's power and influence the world that way. Not a lot. That's why he needed Atium so badly because then he would finally be stronger than Preservation: Spoiler Zas So what's up with the regeneration issue? With Shards? Because they only have so much power they can access at a certain time, but yet they still have more energy. So how does that work? Is it just they have so much power they can use at any given time? Brandon Sanderson What are you talking about? Like which shards? Zas Ruin and Preservation. Since we know the most about them. Brandon Sanderson Ruin and Preservation were a specific instance, because almost all their energy was thrown into resisting each other. Keep that in mind. Even after Preservation was only a shadow, basically all of it was "Let's keep Ruin from destroying the world." So they were polar opposites. Set in balance. But slightly unbalanced in a couple of ways, that eventually, that slight imbalance... They are a special case, because of that. Zas So then why are they hesitant to directly fuel Allomancy? Brandon Sanderson Why are they hesitant to? What do you mean by directly fuel Allomancy? Zas You mention in the Hero of Ages Q&A that they can directly fuel Allomancy, like Vin does with Elend, but it requires expending their energy in a way they are hesitant to do. Brandon Sanderson Because it imbalances them more. Does that make sense? Like, if you are putting your energy here, rather than fighting the other force, you give them an edge somewhere else by trying to gain an edge here. And you have to make sure that's really worth it. Imagine a chess game. Is it worth sacrificing my pawn here to expose myself over here? Orem signing (Sept. 22, 2012) HoA ch 76: Quote The sun was amazingly powerful—she hadn't realized how much the ash and smoke had done to shield the land. She cried out, spinning the world quickly so that the sun moved to its other side. Darkness fell. And, as soon as she did that, tempests began to swoop across the landscape. Weather patterns were disrupted by the motion, and in the sea a sudden wave appeared, enormously large. It rolled toward the coast, threatening to wipe away several cities. Vin cried out again, reaching to stop the wave. And something blocked her. She heard laughter. She turned in the air, looking to where Ruin sat like a shifting, undulating thundercloud. [...] He reached out with a power Vin could feel. Immediately, without knowing how or why, she blocked him. She threw her power up against his, and he halted, unable to act. Below, the tsunami crashed into the coast. There were still people down there. People who had hidden from the koloss, who had survived on fish from the sea when their crops failed. Vin felt their pain, their terror, and she cried out as she reached to protect them. And, again, was stopped. Now you know the frustration, Ruin said as the tsunami destroyed villages. What was it your Elend said? For every Push, there is a Pull. Throw something up, and it will come back down. Opposition. For Ruin, there is Preservation. Time immemorial! Eternity! And each time I push, YOU push back. Even when dead, you stopped me, for we are forces. I can do nothing! And you can do nothing! Balance! The curse of our existence. ch 77: Quote Suddenly, Ruin's frustration made even more sense to Vin. She felt she held the power of all creation. Yet, it took everything she had to get even a few words to Elend. She wasn't even certain if he'd heard her or not. She knew him so well, however, that she felt a . . . connection. Despite Ruin's efforts to block her, she felt as if some part of her had been able to get through to some part of Elend. Perhaps in the same way Ruin was able to communicate with his Inquisitors and followers? 12 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: He’s supposed to have precognition to have some extent, but he’s constantly failing. He goes from manipulating cultures to make Hemalurgy part of them or subtly fabricating Eleventh Metal stories in the North, to completely ignoring kandra who are paid in atium. I know there's something something worse precognition. Something something Secret History. But I can only take so much BS from antagonists being fooled, before it feels like they're being unnecessarily neutered. I don't know what Ruin did the outer Dominances or areas outside of the Empire, so he doesn't feel like the god of destruction. He was never shown or implied to see into the future, so it comes across as him having worse precognition than a mortal. Another reason why Ruin wasn't able to predict his death was because he was blinded by Shard's intent - he couldn't believe that Preservation would even be able to act against his intent - kill - just like Ruin couldn't preserve against his intent. This belief was caused by the amount of time Ati was holding Ruin - this warped his mind and aligned it closer to Ruin's intent, until Ati wasn't able to even to perceive that any Vessel would be able to act against Shard's intent. And because he didn't believe this is possible, he didn't search for that with his precognition, completely missing this outcome and road to it. 12 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: The message of Scadrial finally being at peace once decay and stasis come together, is undercut by Preservation being too much of “the good guy.” No Shard is inherently good or evil. Preservation is perceived as a good guy because he sacrificed everything to protect people from Ruin. Ruin wasn't evil, they made a deal and Ruin just wanted that deal to be fulfilled. If anything, one can argue that Preservation was a bad guy here, because he had broken the deal and imprisoned Ruin, to prevent him from doing what's rightfully his. Keep in mind, in SH Preservation admired Rashek, despite the amount of death he had caused. Spoiler Questioner Do you believe that Preservation is inherently good and that Ruin is inherently evil? Brandon Sanderson No, good question! I would say no. I don't think any of the Shards are inherently good or inherently evil. I think that Ruin can be (and was for many years) in the cosmere presented as the necessary force of progress, right? Things need to decay in order for life to exist. And I think entropy is just a necessary aspect of life. And Ruin doesn't have to be evil; but Ruin is hard to control. [edit] And because of that, there is a higher likelihood that Ruin or [edit] are going to, if left unchecked, be very dangeorus. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 23, 2021) 12 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: He was clearly capable of some actions since the Deepness came into the world 1000 years ago. He didn't do that, he programmed Mists to start snapping people where the Well was close to being filled. This was happening automatically, without Preservation's conscious control (look at one of the WoB above). At that point in the story Preservation was as good as dead, HoA ch 56 epigraphs: Quote Perhaps Preservation—or, the remnants of what he had been—wanted to get Elend alone. Or, perhaps he saw Elend kneeling in that field, and knew that the emperor of men was very close to just lying down in the ash, never to rise again. Either way, Preservation did appear, and in doing so exposed himself to Ruin's attacks. Gone were the days when Preservation could turn away an Inquisitor with a bare gesture, gone—even—were the days when he could strike a man down to bleed and die. Overall I think that's a fair criticism, you raised some good points, like about exploring different places in the empire, it would be nice to see how different they were from the Central Dominance, see Vershad when he was still a man, or get some more history of the Final Empire. After all, it lasted for 1000 years, and we barely know anything about what happened during that time. Edited September 2, 2023 by alder24 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWisestBear Posted September 3, 2023 Report Share Posted September 3, 2023 On 2023-08-26 at 5:39 AM, alder24 said: Marasi said that even the Words of Funding said that Kel Ascended - that was said by Sazed, that was a fact, not a religious doctrine. SoS ch 14: Quote “The Survivor transcended death,” Marasi said, looking back, hand on the door, but not entering. “He survived even being killed, adopting the mantle of the Ascendant during the time between Preservation’s death and Vin’s Ascension.” Rust … was she arguing theology with a demigod? MeLaan, however, just cocked her head. “What, really?” “Um … yes. Harmony wrote of it himself in the Words of Founding, MeLaan.” “Huh. I really ought to read that thing one of these days.” I do remember this pericope well, and I read this I thought to myself: What? Has the Church of the Survivor made its own edition of the Words of Founding? Kind of like the Samaritan Pentateuch? After all, Sanderson likes to play with religion and the perception of truth. Furthermore, Marasi's account is not verified by Harmony's own servant MeLaan who was herself present during Era 1. Is she playing dumb and catering to Marasi's beliefs, like she played with Marasi's boss with the thee's and thou's? Therefore, this episode was by no means decisive in determining that Kelsier was alive. Remember: by this point in the story of Scadrial, we know nothing about the afterlife other than the fact that there is one, and that Sazed did not know how to bring Vin and Elend back. If indeed the details about Kelsier's resurrection will be revealed in Eras 3 or 4, then why did Sanderson reveal those details about pinning his soul to a kandra (or whatever it was) in the WoB? I find it unsatisfying to get those details from encyclopedia-sounding articles instead of from a story. Perhaps more details are revealed in story form in the rest of the cosmere books. I have indeed read them all, but I may not remember all of them well. And I'm not sure I read them in publication order (probably not). As for the annotations, I don't usually read these from any author, but the ones I have glanced at are usually along the lines of "my inspiration for this character/scene/situation was...". But if Sanderson's annotations also reveal the in-world mechanisms of the magic system, or reveal details like Kelsier being alive in HoA, I feel that starts to become spoilerish for future works, and more importantly violates the age-old story-telling principle of "show, don't tell." I recognize that a lot of people like this kind of thing since the cosmere is so intricate and huge, but I would prefer to be able to understand a story without the need to refer to the author's annotations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted September 3, 2023 Report Share Posted September 3, 2023 10 hours ago, TheWisestBear said: I do remember this pericope well, and I read this I thought to myself: What? Has the Church of the Survivor made its own edition of the Words of Founding? How did you get to that conclusion when there is nothing to suggest that? It isn't named "Survivalist Words of Founding" nor did Wax, who knew them well, contradicted Marasi. It was clearly about the Words of Founding, written and left by Sazed, not changed by anyone. 10 hours ago, TheWisestBear said: Furthermore, Marasi's account is not verified by Harmony's own servant MeLaan who was herself present during Era 1. MeLaan was kind of busy living in PR and trying to convince TenSonn to rebel against the 2nd generation, and later saving him, and later not getting under Ruin's control. MeLaan had no idea what was happening in CR, not to mention SR. How would she know that? She can't see that. 10 hours ago, TheWisestBear said: Is she playing dumb and catering to Marasi's beliefs, like she played with Marasi's boss with the thee's and thou's? No, she simply has never read 80 or more volumes of Words of Founding. Can you blame her? 10 hours ago, TheWisestBear said: Therefore, this episode was by no means decisive in determining that Kelsier was alive. Remember: by this point in the story of Scadrial, we know nothing about the afterlife other than the fact that there is one, and that Sazed did not know how to bring Vin and Elend back. This episode was enough to determine that Kelsier somehow survived his death and Ascended to Preservation like VIn did in HoA. That's a lot. Why we don't know details of the afterlife yet, we have hits here and earlier in HoA to make us suspicious. That's enough. 10 hours ago, TheWisestBear said: If indeed the details about Kelsier's resurrection will be revealed in Eras 3 or 4, then why did Sanderson reveal those details about pinning his soul to a kandra (or whatever it was) in the WoB? First off, Brandon in any way didn't give us a detailed answer. He said in different WoBs that Kelsier has bones, which are useful to getting his body back, and that a single hemalurgic spike is sufficient to pin a soul into a Mistwraith's body (he didn't confirm that Kelsier did it, only suggested it). But all of this leaves so many things out. Who helped him? Is this spike charged? Does it contain his soul? Any powers? Nothing? How did they do that? Why didn't he recover his Allomancy after getting his body? Whose body is that specifically? Brandon just teased us with clues, nothing more. All of this is left for SH 2 and Era 3. 10 hours ago, TheWisestBear said: I find it unsatisfying to get those details from encyclopedia-sounding articles instead of from a story. But it was revealed in TLM! Kelsier said that the spike is pinning him to his body. We have this information in the book now, that earlier was revealed in WoBs (which was very easy to spot in BoM). TLM epilogue 4: Quote Hemalurgy had proven ineffective on what he’d become. It held his soul and body together, but no more. 10 hours ago, TheWisestBear said: As for the annotations, I don't usually read these from any author, but the ones I have glanced at are usually along the lines of "my inspiration for this character/scene/situation was...". But if Sanderson's annotations also reveal the in-world mechanisms of the magic system, or reveal details like Kelsier being alive in HoA, I feel that starts to become spoilerish for future works, and more importantly violates the age-old story-telling principle of "show, don't tell." I recognize that a lot of people like this kind of thing since the cosmere is so intricate and huge, but I would prefer to be able to understand a story without the need to refer to the author's annotations. The only real spoiler was Kel being alive, but this was already hinted to us in HoA, so not a big deal. It's really hard to "show" details of the magic system, someone had to explain them. Sazed did in epigraphs, but they can only be as long as they were, that's why annotations are there, to explain more than the story can. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duxredux Posted September 6, 2023 Report Share Posted September 6, 2023 (edited) I acknowledge that my views on critiquing are heavily influenced by how Brandon and Dan discuss critiques on Intentionally Blank. I also acknowledge that I am biased in favor of posts that improve a reader's enjoyment of a story. At any rate, here are some thoughts. First, what is the goal of your critique? Is it to highlight a potentially damaging misstep or omission on how a group or science is portrayed? Is it to get something that was bugging you about the story off your chest so you can let it go? Are you bugged by something that isn't really about the book but is about a personality trait of a character that rubs you wrong and you are seeking validation in your dislike? Is it to take one of the top fantasy authors who you think may get too much hype down a few pegs (if it is, you're probably on the wrong forum, just sayin')? Is it to explore the piece of media from the eye of an author to discuss what worked and what didn't with the goal of creating your own story? Is it to discuss how a piece of media fits in with the rest of media currently being produced? Is it that there something was wrong in a book and you found you had an irresistible urge to correct it and are one of those people who corrects textbooks that you don't own (nothing wrong with them as a human being, I married one)? Is it to showcase what you thought went well and why you liked the story? Is it meant as feedback for the author? It might feel like the goal of the critique is obvious, but signposting whether you are looking for support, advice, validation, or discussion can be useful in a forum. I'd have to find the exact episode(s) that he talks about it, but Brandon doesn't have a typical view on plot holes. His view is that a plot hole is an error that is immediately recognizable while reading or watching the story and throws the reader out of the story by breaking immersion. These are major plot holes that can break a story. These are separate from what he calls "refrigerator logic" where you finish the movie, enjoyed the ride, get up to get a sandwich and then the mental penny drops. You absolutely need to eliminate the first to have a good experience and you do your best to reduce the second so that rewatching the movie is enjoyable, but no author can make fiction as seamless as reality. There will be holes, and sometimes Brandon just choses to err on the side of what is awesome. Foreshadowing is an art and finetuning when exactly people put the pieces together for the "aha" moment is something Brandon works hard on. I think he has like 5 different stages to his revision process, and his branded "Sanderson's Laws of Magic" are really about proper foreshadowing. The thing is people have dramatically different life experience and will put together the pieces at different rates than others. In the groups he has pre-read the drafts I think he has them try to describe when exactly they put the pieces together and then he tries to tweak the information he doles out so that he gets the peak of the "aha" bell curve where he wants it. Regardless, there will be some people who figure out the big reveal a quarter of the way through the book and some people who will need it explained to them even after they've finished the book. Those "aha" moments are really satisfying for a lot of readers, and Brandon tries to get that experience to as many readers as he can, but sometimes you'll just be off the bell curve when he has hundreds of thousands if not millions of readers. I'm one of those take took an embarrassingly long time to figure out that Ruin was actually an evil god that corrupted religion and was trying to destroy the planet (I was young, I've since learned not to skim Brandon's epigraphs). Some books the initial read is just rough for me, but more often when I have the whole story in my head I can go back and pick out all of the tiny details that were hinting all along. I usually enjoy my second reading of Brandon's books more than the first because he goes to the effort of putting in all of the foreshadowing for the climax, character decisions, magic system reveals, and more. Brandon's annotations and WoBs probably wouldn't work for most authors because Brandon's fandom isn't like most authors. As of my writing this, there's almost 40,000 members of 17th Shard and 800 currently online and those are small subsets of his reader base. The annotations and WoBs are there for the people who fly all over the country chasing his book signings to go and ask him the question: "Why does Hoid like bacon so much?" If you're not in that group, that's fine, but there's not an insignificant number of people willing to do that. Most don't have to do that to enjoy his books (I've only gone to one local signing and only because a friend dragged me), but he does do quite a bit of catering for the huge fans, being a member of several fandoms himself considering how often he says on his podcast that he will promote Magic the Gathering cards for Wizards of the Coast if they send him free cards. The existence of the WoBs and annotations are there because people have begged him for them and this is one of his way of engaging with his fan community, but shouldn't necessarily be taken as a sign of laziness as a storyteller. It's for the people who for years repeatedly ask what the exact metal Wax's earring is made of - even if it only needs to be a Hemalurgic spike to fulfill its role in the story. Lastly, Brandon's profession is author. He's not an astrophysicist, biologist, chemist, field surgeon, fighter pilot, drill sergeant, orphan girl, or emperor. He gets a lot of feedback from experts in their respective fields so he can accurately portray things, but unless I'm very much mistaken, his goal isn't to make breakthroughs in chemistry, astrology, or psychology. He wants to tell stories and sometimes that's trying to get into the head of a leader who feels out of their depth. Sometimes he tries to show the life of a repentant murderer or a broken widower. Brandon has a lot of people playing backstop for him so he doesn't have to get 30 doctorates just to tell a cool story with minimal departure from known science and psychology sans Investiture. I think it's worth asking if an error in the science diminishes the story or Brandon's ability as a storyteller and if so, to what extent. If only a scientist in the field could spot the discrepancy is it a failure of storytelling? Well, that's my essay on criticism as it relates to Brandon Sanderson's work as an author. Thanks for reading, I'm just one longwinded point of data. Edited September 6, 2023 by Duxredux clarity 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted September 6, 2023 Report Share Posted September 6, 2023 1 hour ago, Duxredux said: It might feel like the goal of the critique is obvious, but signposting whether you are looking for support, advice, validation, or discussion can be useful in a forum. I would also like to note that this forum suggests the use of [Support] and [Discuss] tags on thread titles for this very reason. Please see this post for more. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ale the Metallic Conjurer Posted October 17, 2023 Report Share Posted October 17, 2023 On 9/2/2023 at 9:48 AM, alder24 said: Skaa weren't captives, they were an enslaved class of society. Like Serfs in Tsarist Russia but worse. All Skaa were the property of the Lord Ruler, used by nobles. Most of them were living on plantations, others were working in mines or factories in cities, only a lucky few were allowed to have their own workshops, like Clubs. But he was still Skaa, still a property of the Lord Ruler. He didn't need to gather them, they were all already his. It doesn't matter what was produced on plantations, it wasn't one thing, the empire needed everything, from plant-based food, animal products to plant-based fabrics etc - those would be grown in plantations. The purpose of plantations in the story is to show how badly Skaa are treated. We know how TLM was recruiting so many soldiers - paying them. Skaa who wanted to have a better quality of life could draft into the army and get paid more. That's simply. Of course most Skaa despise the army, but some would be desperate enough to join and serve. Koloss were kept on the outskirts of the empire, near its borders, far away from population centers. It was explained in TFE and WoA. Beyond the borders of the Final Empire there were people living who defiled the rule of the Lord Ruler, having their own party, threatening the region - that's why Koloss were kept close to borders to fight those people, and suppress rebellions (as that far away from the center of the empire, people were more willing to rebel). I really appreciate the explanation. It's been a while since I looked back to Mistborn books 1 and 2. Quote We know how Ruin affected Terris people, even before his release - inquisitors attack them and imprison all Keepers, to spike them later. While Ruin was still imprisoned at that time, we know from the example of Marsh that he had some level of control over them, and from SH we know he was constantly talking to them, influencing their actions. Terrisans escaped this and settled near the Pits of Hathsin, given to them by Elend. They mostly remained isolated from what was happening in the world until Ruin realized where Atium was. We also know what Ruin was doing in other Dominances - Udeau and Fadrex for example. Mostly earthquakes, volcano eruptions and disasters like that, with many people in power spiked like Quellion or Penrod (he tried to spike Yomen but failed). But those two things aren't really relevant to the story, we saw from different PoV that destruction is happening everywhere, but our focus was on Vin/Elend and Sazed/Spook. We know how Inquisitors were "damaging the world" under Ruin's control - they were serving as his pawns, spiking people in power (like Penrod), killing Allomancers and Feruchemist to gain more powers, commanding army of Koloss - but mostly focusing on Elend and Vin. It was presented to us in HoA from Marsh PoV. Well that answers my question on how Ruin affected the Terris people. But it still doesn't satiate my criticism on how Brandon wrote the Terris people or the other Dominances. We should have learned so much more about them, especially the Terris. I also think we should've seen the Inquisitors in action at the outer Dominances. And looking back at the fact Ruin and Preservation created or influenced all, and the fact Sazed knew the histories of the powers, I may end up criticizing Ruin's approach with the kandra and atium. Well... more than I already am. But guess I need to read Secret History first. Quote That's ok, you don't have to care about them, they serve different purposes in the story - to provide information necessary for the climax. Alendi's story foreshadows that the Lord Ruler is Rashek, while Kwaan's plate straight up tells you "not to trust anything that wasn't written in metal" and that Vin can't release the power. They aren't there so you should care about them, but draw connections between past events and present events. That's fair. I'm definitely a person who adores when authors delve into the past of their worlds. I was hoping Brandon did this, but looks like I may have to wait until Era 3 to see this. Quote That's fair, Rashek is a conflicting person. He did many evil things in his life, but Sazed's claim comes from the fact that ultimately he was fighting against Ruin while being slowly driven to madness by him, and he did everything he could to ensure survival of his people, that despite abusive rule, he still cared about their survival. He created a plan that would distract Ruin and hid his Atium, he left messages in the caves for people to gain new powers/information, he created those caves to allow his people to live a few days longer. Of course that doesn't negate 1000 years of tyrannical rule and countless deaths he caused, you don’t have to agree that he was a good person, as we have solid arguments that he wasn’t. But his goals were good - to save humanity from Ruin. Give them a chance. We do know what was Rashak's personality - jealous and angry man, despising everything that is from different lands and not accepting that someone so weak like Alendi can be a Hero of Ages. We also have the message left on the last plate, while his methods or rule were definitely cruel and evil, his goals to preserve humanity were good and he was constantly under Ruin's influence. That's a fair counterpoint. Just that I think somewhere in Rashek's whole thing, I think Sanderson wrote his actions as too atrocious or "evil." Guess it comes down to my own preferences on how to write characters like this. I think if his rule of the Final Empire was like Princess Bubblegum from Adventure Time, I would have less of a problem. Quote I get that, that's partially because Ruin already thought he won and he couldn't foresee his defeat. That's why he became "sloppy" and began to gloat. But in WoA Ruin was almost absent - only changes in text and one Mistspirit were a clue that something was manipulating them, not much more. It's not just in WoA proper where I thought Ruin felt much more dangerous or competent. In the background of Scadrial's past he felt actually dangerous. No one in Terris except Kwaan had suspicions about his manipulations. According to an old WoB, he was manipulating cultures to make Hemalurgic piercings seem legit. Heck, I have a theory Kwaan suspected Ruin because he was manipulated by Preservation. Meanwhile in HoA... idk. His actions now feel blasé to me? Quote The precognition part is very important. Just like with Mistborn burning Atium, he can see a clear future only when nobody is also burning Atium - Preservation had his own future vision and was disrupting Ruin's precognition, making it very hard for him to predict what will happen. He could still see certain events and outcomes, but they were more uncertain, because of Preservation's presence. I'm going to be honest, that makes my criticism so much worse. If Ruin's precognition was clouded by Preservation's precognition, why didn't the reserve happen? Why was Ruin out here acting like dumb ol Texas while Preservation was acting like Xanatos? Quote Another reason why Ruin wasn't able to predict his death was because he was blinded by Shard's intent - he couldn't believe that Preservation would even be able to act against his intent - kill - just like Ruin couldn't preserve against his intent. This belief was caused by the amount of time Ati was holding Ruin - this warped his mind and aligned it closer to Ruin's intent, until Ati wasn't able to even to perceive that any Vessel would be able to act against Shard's intent. And because he didn't believe this is possible, he didn't search for that with his precognition, completely missing this outcome and road to it. I have thoughts about this, I think. I kind of hate this, but think I need to read other Cosmere books before commenting. Quote No Shard is inherently good or evil. Preservation is perceived as a good guy because he sacrificed everything to protect people from Ruin. Ruin wasn't evil, they made a deal and Ruin just wanted that deal to be fulfilled. If anything, one can argue that Preservation was a bad guy here, because he had broken the deal and imprisoned Ruin, to prevent him from doing what's rightfully his. Keep in mind, in SH Preservation admired Rashek, despite the amount of death he had caused. Same with this, because Preservation isn't actively doing evil things. The one evil thing Sanderson could've pinned completely on him - the Deepness - turned out to have been somewhat hijacked by Ruin. Not a fan of that writing decision. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted October 17, 2023 Report Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: Well that answers my question on how Ruin affected the Terris people. But it still doesn't satiate my criticism on how Brandon wrote the Terris people or the other Dominances. We should have learned so much more about them, especially the Terris. I also think we should've seen the Inquisitors in action at the outer Dominances. And looking back at the fact Ruin and Preservation created or influenced all, and the fact Sazed knew the histories of the powers, I may end up criticizing Ruin's approach with the kandra and atium. Well... more than I already am. But guess I need to read Secret History first. The Final Empire was mostly homogeneous by the design of the Lord Ruler. We can see this when we read early Sazed chapters in WoA, Spook's flashback, and both chapters in Fadrex and Urteau in HoA. Skaa are Skaa no matter where they are, the Lord Ruler rules no matter how far away from Luthadel it is, Obligators are a constant reminder of this, and nobles are cruel and selfish everywhere. With Terris we know more because of Sazed and Twindyl - they'd been bred and trained to become the perfect servant, there were no free Terris people before Rashek's death, no society, no culture. Only Keepers kept the memory going in secret. While I understand why you want to read more about the other places in the empire, I think that's not the point of the series, it wasn't about the empire, but about people. And those people have no reason to go to places so far away from Luthadel. Read also the Eleventh Metal too, it's a very short story about Kelsier before TFE - it's happening further away from Luthadel. 1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: That's a fair counterpoint. Just that I think somewhere in Rashek's whole thing, I think Sanderson wrote his actions as too atrocious or "evil." Guess it comes down to my own preferences on how to write characters like this. I think if his rule of the Final Empire was like Princess Bubblegum from Adventure Time, I would have less of a problem. That's fair, he's meant to be conflicting - he did many evil things, committed numerous unforgettable atrocities and yet he had the good of his people in his mind, he protected them from Ruin and searched for a way to save them from the end - all while Ruin was constantly whispering in his mind. But that doesn't mean he was a good guy - he had the good of humanity in his mind, but does the end justify the means? That's why he was portrayed in that way, to make you question him more, to make him more interesting. There was no denying he was a bad person, but when faced with Ruin and his plan of total destruction, you need to answer if Rashek's tyrannical actions were justified or not. Personally he's one of my favorite villains. 1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: It's not just in WoA proper where I thought Ruin felt much more dangerous or competent. In the background of Scadrial's past he felt actually dangerous. No one in Terris except Kwaan had suspicions about his manipulations. According to an old WoB, he was manipulating cultures to make Hemalurgic piercings seem legit. Heck, I have a theory Kwaan suspected Ruin because he was manipulated by Preservation. Meanwhile in HoA... idk. His actions now feel blasé to me? Because he was free. He did all of those things through centuries to make someone release him, and Vin did it. There was no reason for him to change scripts, influence prophecies and stuff like that, he got his freedom and now could slowly destroy the world. In his mind he already won. But I get it - it's interesting to read about this mysterious, unknown, manipulating and evil power, and that's who he was in WoA, while in HoA he was just a guy with puppets gloating to Vin. But he still do a lot there - caused another House War in Luthadel, took control over Urteau, the Citizen and Spook, tricked Vin and Elend into collecting the army of Koloss and manipulated them into discovering Rashek's caves for him, while pushing Vin to search for Atium. The difference is he was no longer mysterious and unknown, he had a face and a voice now. That's not the same. And he wasn't that subtle because he was no longer limited by his cage. 1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: I'm going to be honest, that makes my criticism so much worse. If Ruin's precognition was clouded by Preservation's precognition, why didn't the reserve happen? Why was Ruin out here acting like dumb ol Texas while Preservation was acting like Xanatos? Because Preservation was one of the best at precognition while Ruin was not so good with this. Shard's intent is imporntat when it comes to precognition. But it still happened, Preservation's vision was clouded because of Ruin's vision, but because he was better, he could predict further despite Ruin. Spoiler JamesW You said that Preservation created the Terris Prophecies. Why couldn't Ruin see into the future and counter Preservation's plan? Is it because Ruin's intent has him focusing more on the present than the future, while Preservation (wanting to preserve forever) looks more into the future for that goal. Brandon Sanderson Looking into the future was not something Ruin was good at doing. That ability is confined to certain shards, and not others. 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 28, 2012) Future vision on Shardic level is just different, and we still don't know much about it. It's like a broken glass - the further away you look the more it is splintered into smaller and smaller pieces, the harder it is to actually know what is going to happen. Shards see possibilities, thousands and thousands of possibilities, not certain futures. Preservation was so good that he could notice the outcome he wanted to achieve so far out in the future, and hope his nudges at the right time and place would help people reach towards this outcome. But he didn't know for certain this would happen, he had only hope. Edited October 17, 2023 by alder24 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ale the Metallic Conjurer Posted October 18, 2023 Report Share Posted October 18, 2023 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Because Preservation was one of the best at precognition while Ruin was not so good with this. Shard's intent is imporntat when it comes to precognition. But it still happened, Preservation's vision was clouded because of Ruin's vision, but because he was better, he could predict further despite Ruin. Quote Future vision on Shardic level is just different, and we still don't know much about it. It's like a broken glass - the further away you look the more it is splintered into smaller and smaller pieces, the harder it is to actually know what is going to happen. Shards see possibilities, thousands and thousands of possibilities, not certain futures. Preservation was so good that he could notice the outcome he wanted to achieve so far out in the future, and hope his nudges at the right time and place would help people reach towards this outcome. But he didn't know for certain this would happen, he had only hope. I guess it could be worse??? I understand the logic behind it, but I'm not a fan of how Ruin seems to have never used future sight throughout his war with Preservation. Granted, I can think of a few occasions where he could've used it. This is definitely one of the weirdest things in the MB trilogy for me, something that feels like it came from Sanderson's inexperience. Definitely something I want to rewrite if I end up writing Mistborn stories. I have a lot of ideas on how to write Ruin. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted October 18, 2023 Report Share Posted October 18, 2023 On 9/1/2023 at 8:51 PM, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: As for my criticisms, I got a few. The only Cosmere I’ve finished is the MB trilogy, Elantris and Emperor’s Soul. So my opinions will focus on that. 18 minutes ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: I'm not a fan of how Ruin seems to have never used future sight throughout his war with Preservation. Granted, I can think of a few occasions where he could've used it. This is definitely one of the weirdest things in the MB trilogy for me I feel like we can't really explain well without spoilers, and you can't give the situation context until you have read more of the Cosmere. Basically, it comes down to this: Scadrial is only one facet of what is going on, and Preservation/Ruin are less than 13% of the forces at work. There is a larger picture and most of what you think of as flaws (and you are totally allowed to view them as such) are really foreshadowing and hints at the larger picture. These things are this way for a reason, not just "because the story needs X." I'm sorry you didn't enjoy Mistborn Era 1. I do hope you continue to read the Cosmere, enjoy the stories and eventually get to see how these pieces fit in the larger picture. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ale the Metallic Conjurer Posted October 18, 2023 Report Share Posted October 18, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Treamayne said: I'm sorry you didn't enjoy Mistborn Era 1. I do hope you continue to read the Cosmere, enjoy the stories and eventually get to see how these pieces fit in the larger picture. I never said I didn't enjoy it. I love Mistborn Era 1. I love Vin and Sazed and Kelsier, and the rest of the crew. Elend's criminally underrated. Most of the side characters may have been simple, but they were great. The Metallic Arts were amazing and will probably serve as an inspiration for my own magic systems. But looking back, I wish Sanderson wrote Ruin as a lot more competent or nuanced, and fleshed out things like the Terris Keepers. But maybe that stems from my own preferences. Edited October 18, 2023 by Ale the Metallic Conjurer 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted October 18, 2023 Report Share Posted October 18, 2023 (edited) On 10/17/2023 at 10:01 PM, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: I never said I didn't enjoy it. I love Mistborn Era 1. My apologies for misunderstanding. It seemed like you found more faults than enjoyment, based on the conversation thus far. It's understandable to want to know more about a world we love, and it's sad that some of the projects that may have added some of these details (like Birthright - which IIRC was planned to happen early in Rashek's reign - 2d century or so) fell through. Spoiler Quote Questioner Will you ever do a prequel to Mistborn? Brandon Sanderson It is unlikely that I will spend very much time with prequels because as a reader I’m not terribly fond of them: Since I already know what happens it ruins some of the story for me. Though the video game, which by the way is taking a long time and I have no updates *laughter* was going to be a prequel. And so that sort of thing you might see mediums like that. And it’s not impossible that I will do something like that. Quote Questioner Has Mistborn: Birthright officially tanked? Brandon Sanderson Has Mistborn: Birthright officially tanked? So this is the video game. So the kind of longer-- the short answer is yes. That said, your vision of Ruin is fundamentally against most of the rest of the details for the Cosmere. If you are planning to continue with the Cosmere, you may want to consider some of the many reading order threads to make sure you are not self-spoiling (if you care about that type of thing). Most of the worlds in the Cosmere are internally consistent, but there are some . . . interconnections that may be important for either spoiler reasons or for making sense of the building Realmatics that involve why things in the Cosmere are the way they are. Edited October 24, 2023 by Treamayne SPAG 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted October 18, 2023 Report Share Posted October 18, 2023 9 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: I guess it could be worse??? I understand the logic behind it, but I'm not a fan of how Ruin seems to have never used future sight throughout his war with Preservation. Granted, I can think of a few occasions where he could've used it. He is using it constantly. It's like Vin burning Atium when her opponent is also burning Atium - she sees thousands of possibilities all the time, for Vin they are useless, she can't understand them, can't see them all, she can't comprehend them all, but for Ruin the story is different. He sees them all, understands them all, but doesn't know which one will come true. He can nudge people here and there to help him reach the future he wants but the future in Cosmere isn't certain, and for Shards it's especially uncertain, just a bunch of possibilities he constantly sees. But when he revealed himself to Vin in Fadrex's cave, that was because he saw that there was no future in which he can lose now. He was wrong, and that was because he was not very good with this. 7 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: I wish Sanderson wrote Ruin as a lot more competent or nuanced The problem with this is the more someone holds a Shard, the more changed they are to fit Shardic intent, the less human they are. Ruin was the way he was because he was holding the Shard for so long that the person he used to be was gone, he was just the mind shaped by destruction, blinded by it and unable to act or even think against it. At that point Ruin is more or less just a force of nature, and that's important for Cosmere. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Vin Asks Ruin about Preservation After this scene, perhaps you can see why I wanted so badly to spend some time with Vin and Ruin talking while she was imprisoned. I felt this was important enough that I was willing to stretch plausibility a tad to make it possible. (The spoiler in the chapter 54 annotation explains what I mean by that.) The discussion of morality here is an important one, as I wanted Ruin and Preservation to represent forces, not moral poles. This is vital for various reasons in the underlying cosmology. If they represented poles, then that implied there could only be two like them. But, as they represent opposites, that leaves more room. Preservation did betray Ruin. This brings us onto the shaky ground of the morality of lying to achieve a greater good. If as much were at stake as is here—the end of an entire world—then perhaps you'd betray someone too. (I love fantasy. Where else can you talk about the end of the world as a consequence of a betrayal and have it be literal?) Ruin's consciousness—separate from his power—isn't a particularly nice being. But you can't much blame him, as there's very little that is left of the mind that once was. The force of Ruin has pretty well molded the mind to fit with the force's intent. The Hero of Ages Annotations (Jan. 26, 2010) Spoiler Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Shards and Shard intents: Holding a Shard is a contest of willpower against the Shard that, over time, is very hard to resist. Shards affect you over time, but your mind will not leave a permanent effect on the Shard. A holder's [Vessel's] personality, however, does get to filter the Shard's intent, so to speak. However, if that holder [Vessel] no longer held that Shard, the Shard will not continue to be filtered by that person. Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duxredux Posted October 18, 2023 Report Share Posted October 18, 2023 (edited) Treamayne and alder24 have covered most of this pretty well I feel. I'm going to address just two of these concepts. 18 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: Quote No Shard is inherently good or evil. Preservation is perceived as a good guy because he sacrificed everything to protect people from Ruin. Ruin wasn't evil, they made a deal and Ruin just wanted that deal to be fulfilled. If anything, one can argue that Preservation was a bad guy here, because he had broken the deal and imprisoned Ruin, to prevent him from doing what's rightfully his. Keep in mind, in SH Preservation admired Rashek, despite the amount of death he had caused. Same with this, because Preservation isn't actively doing evil things. The one evil thing Sanderson could've pinned completely on him - the Deepness - turned out to have been somewhat hijacked by Ruin. Not a fan of that writing decision. Depends on whether or not you think Preservation's choice to stall and hope for the best was a wise move. His decision to sacrifice his mind to create the Well of Ascension left him cognitively crippled and largely inactive for thousands of years. Depends on whether you think inaction in the face of all other atrocities as the god of Stasis is evil or not. I wouldn't go too hard on the decisions of the mentally crippled Preservation - that's kind of a low blow - but his lobotomization was self-inflicted. That said, even without Preservation playing an active role, the concepts and consequence of preservation and stability vs ruin are woven throughout the books and I'll address this in the next concept. 17 hours ago, alder24 said: 18 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: That's a fair counterpoint. Just that I think somewhere in Rashek's whole thing, I think Sanderson wrote his actions as too atrocious or "evil." Guess it comes down to my own preferences on how to write characters like this. I think if his rule of the Final Empire was like Princess Bubblegum from Adventure Time, I would have less of a problem. That's fair, he's meant to be conflicting - he did many evil things, committed numerous unforgettable atrocities and yet he had the good of his people in his mind, he protected them from Ruin and searched for a way to save them from the end - all while Ruin was constantly whispering in his mind. But that doesn't mean he was a good guy - he had the good of humanity in his mind, but does the end justify the means? That's why he was portrayed in that way, to make you question him more, to make him more interesting. There was no denying he was a bad person, but when faced with Ruin and his plan of total destruction, you need to answer if Rashek's tyrannical actions were justified or not. Personally he's one of my favorite villains. Here's an alternative take on Rashek if you would like, though I may be bringing up a hot topic. In high school we had a foreign exchange student come from Germany. At one point, I'm not sure how the topic came up, he talked about what it was like having the Nazi party as a component of his heritage - including living relatives who still supported the Nazi party. He hated the Nazi party and I think it was his dad who told him that the German people were suffering economically prior Hitler's rise to power. People were destitute and desperate to survive - and the war that Hitler led them to saved the German economy. For that matter, it was WWII that pulled the United States out of their Great Depression and revived their economy. Understanding that Hitler's actions genuinely improved the living conditions for his people provides a context for how he gained support at all, and why some people may still long for those days. All this said, I've been to the Holocaust memorial at Washington D.C. and I don't think the balances support what Hitler did. History has a way of demonizing Hitler likely so that no one even thinks of doing a repeat of what he did to the Jewish people which I understand and support, but it doesn't always paint a complete picture. Also, I reaaaally don't want to get into a debate on Hitler's morality, but I think it puts the next paragraph into a greater context. I have no idea if Brandon took any inspiration from Hitler, but it's not hard to draw connections between Rashek and Hitler with the obsession with a superior race, eugenics, and secret police (Steel Inquisitors). I don't think it would be too hard to frame Rashek as "what if Hitler took over the world - now what?" Even then, you can see the war of Preservation and Ruin within Rashek as a Sliver of Preservation, changed by the Well of Ascension, with Ruin whispering in his ear for a thousand years. In an attempt to preserve his people, Rashek nearly destroyed the world while moving it with the Well of Ascension. By creating a stable society with strict enforcement, he enslaved the majority of his people and slaughtered dozens if not hundreds of rebellions. To maintain control of the magics in his empire, he instituted brutal policing and breeding programs for his own race. Through it all, Rashek was trying to save his people from the destructive force known as Ruin. Elend attempted to create a equitable society and was deposed for it, and resorted to becoming an emperor and tyrant to save his people. Push and pull, ruin and preserve. It wouldn't surprise me if The Lord Ruler maintained stability for most of those thousand years with a relatively low mortality rate overall. Remove him and his empire dissolved into full out civil war with Luthadel almost annihilated - even before Ruin was released from the Well of Ascension. Era 2 spoilers up through Lost Metal: Spoiler A bit over 300 years from the Catacendre, and the outer cities already tried to nuke Elendel, possibly risking igniting Scadrial's atmosphere with destructive power they didn't fully comprehend. The balances of stability, economy, control, freedom, oppression, quality of life, etc. are not easy things to manage. I'm also not going to go into IRL politics by the way, nope, not doing it here, but I think these concepts in Mistborn are explorations of real world issues. I won't debate on whether or not Rashek was too evil, but the concepts he employed are not found only in fiction. Edited October 18, 2023 by Duxredux Missed how much the reader had read. Thanks alder24. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted October 18, 2023 Report Share Posted October 18, 2023 19 minutes ago, Duxredux said: Era 2 spoilers: Spoiler A bit over 300 years from the Catacendre, and the outer cities already tried to nuke Elendel, possibly risking igniting Scadrial's atmosphere with destructive power they didn't fully comprehend. I don't think they've read Era 2 yet, so please remove that part from your post. On 2.09.2023 at 2:51 AM, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: As for my criticisms, I got a few. The only Cosmere I’ve finished is the MB trilogy, Elantris and Emperor’s Soul. So my opinions will focus on that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ale the Metallic Conjurer Posted October 23, 2023 Report Share Posted October 23, 2023 I understand all your perspectives on Ruin and how its host was shaped by the Shard. However, I still don’t think that makes for a particularly nuanced conflict like the type Sanderson is trying to convey. I’m fine with the host being shaped by the Shard, or Preservation being the superior seer. But on a personal level, I don’t particularly like seeing death gods being portrayed as DEATH DOOM DOOM OOGA BOOGA BOOGA! I’m as scared of death as anyone else, but I think even if a death god is an antagonist they should be portrayed in a clever, calm light. I would’ve liked if Ruin represented the infinite routes where death and destruction can be slow/calm or fast/violent. I also understand Ruin is supposed to be the force of entropy and decay, but I don’t think Sanderson did a good job at conveying it. And I have certain opinions on how much of a war and conflict the Shards’ relationship was. But I guess at this point it’s a matter of personal opinion rather than critique. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted October 23, 2023 Report Share Posted October 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: I understand all your perspectives on Ruin and how its host was shaped by the Shard. However, I still don’t think that makes for a particularly nuanced conflict like the type Sanderson is trying to convey. I’m fine with the host being shaped by the Shard, or Preservation being the superior seer. But on a personal level, I don’t particularly like seeing death gods being portrayed as DEATH DOOM DOOM OOGA BOOGA BOOGA! I’m as scared of death as anyone else, but I think even if a death god is an antagonist they should be portrayed in a clever, calm light. I would’ve liked if Ruin represented the infinite routes where death and destruction can be slow/calm or fast/violent. I also understand Ruin is supposed to be the force of entropy and decay, but I don’t think Sanderson did a good job at conveying it. And I have certain opinions on how much of a war and conflict the Shards’ relationship was. But I guess at this point it’s a matter of personal opinion rather than critique. I understand and agree - antagonists representing death itself are far better when they are cold and calculated, always having a plan, always smarter than protagonists. I like such bad guys a lot. Ruin wasn't the best of Brandon's "evil" characters, but I think he did his job not only as an antagonist, but also as a set up of Shards, Shardic nature and greater powers of Cosmere. I wouldn't call Ruin a god, nor Preservation, not even Harmony. Ruin had some clever moments, like planting Koloss in Elend's army and then taking control over them, but he was angry a lot of times, which isn't the type of "death god" you like, and I feel it. And Ruin does represent what you want him to represent, but it was more in the background, it was said and mentioned by Ruin rather than shown on pages. The core of Brandon's take on Shards is "godly power in the hands of flawed, ordinary people" and Ruin is a perfect example of this. Either way your criticism is fair, I think it would be interesting to see Ruin as you proposed, I would most likely like him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ale the Metallic Conjurer Posted October 23, 2023 Report Share Posted October 23, 2023 4 hours ago, alder24 said: I understand and agree - antagonists representing death itself are far better when they are cold and calculated, always having a plan, always smarter than protagonists. I like such bad guys a lot. Ruin wasn't the best of Brandon's "evil" characters, but I think he did his job not only as an antagonist, but also as a set up of Shards, Shardic nature and greater powers of Cosmere. I wouldn't call Ruin a god, nor Preservation, not even Harmony. Ruin had some clever moments, like planting Koloss in Elend's army and then taking control over them, but he was angry a lot of times, which isn't the type of "death god" you like, and I feel it. And Ruin does represent what you want him to represent, but it was more in the background, it was said and mentioned by Ruin rather than shown on pages. The core of Brandon's take on Shards is "godly power in the hands of flawed, ordinary people" and Ruin is a perfect example of this. Either way your criticism is fair, I think it would be interesting to see Ruin as you proposed, I would most likely like him. I feel what you mean. I have a lot of ideas, but think I must parse the greater Cosmere first. Do you know any fictional death gods that are similar to my vision? Or antagonistic gods in general. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted October 24, 2023 Report Share Posted October 24, 2023 4 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said: Do you know any fictional death gods that are similar to my vision? Or antagonistic gods in general. Loki (and Hel) in the Iron Druid Chronicles The Morrigan in Iron Druid Chronicles Though she's a Protagonist, she's still a Death Goddess and very in-line with your vision American Gods (multiple) Khali in the Night Angel Trilogy (especially how she designed the Vir) Zalost (maybe) In Seven Kennings Trilogy We'll know more in Book 3 - 7 Nov 2023 Death God may only partially apply - "Nazi" God might be a better description since it's less "things die" than "kill everybody else" Hades in The Dresden Files (for what little screeen time there is - the implications are huge) Hades in Percy Jackson (and Thanatos, Nyx to a lesser extent - not much screen time) I'll update if I think of more, but that's off the top of my head. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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