Untouched Orders

[Firesong she/her]

I wondered how many different Orders of Knights Radiant there could be if any Surge combination was possible, and it is 45.

Spoiler

{Adhesion,Gravitation} {Adhesion,Division} {Adhesion,Abrasion} {Adhesion,Progression} {Adhesion,Illumination} {Adhesion,Transformation} {Adhesion,Transportation} {Adhesion,Cohesion} {Adhesion,Tension} {Gravitation,Division} {Gravitation,Abrasion} {Gravitation,Progression} {Gravitation,Illumination} {Gravitation,Transformation} {Gravitation,Transportation} {Gravitation,Cohesion} {Gravitation,Tension} {Division,Abrasion} {Division,Progression} {Division,Illumination} {Division,Transformation} {Division,Transportation} {Division,Cohesion} {Division,Tension} {Abrasion,Progression} {Abrasion,Illumination} {Abrasion,Transformation} {Abrasion,Transportation} {Abrasion,Cohesion} {Abrasion,Tension} {Progression,Illumination} {Progression,Transformation} {Progression,Transportation} {Progression,Cohesion} {Progression,Tension} {Illumination,Transformation} {Illumination,Transportation} {Illumination,Cohesion} {Illumination,Tension} {Transformation,Transportation} {Transformation,Cohesion} {Transformation,Tension} {Transportation,Cohesion} {Transportation,Tension} {Cohesion,Tension}

Erasing which ones we already have, we have these Orders left unused.

Spoiler

{Adhesion,Division} {Adhesion,Abrasion} {Adhesion,Progression} {Adhesion,Illumination} {Adhesion,Transformation} {Adhesion,Transportation} {Adhesion,Cohesion} {Gravitation,Abrasion} {Gravitation,Progression} {Gravitation,Illumination} {Gravitation,Transformation} {Gravitation,Transportation} {Gravitation,Cohesion} {Gravitation,Tension} {Division,Progression} {Division,Illumination} {Division,Transformation} {Division,Transportation} {Division,Cohesion} {Division,Tension} {Abrasion,Illumination} {Abrasion,Transformation} {Abrasion,Transportation} {Abrasion,Cohesion} {Abrasion,Tension} {Progression,Transformation} {Progression,Transportation} {Progression,Cohesion} {Progression,Tension} {Illumination,Cohesion} {Illumination,Tension} {Transformation,Cohesion} {Transformation,Tension} {Transportation,Cohesion} {Transportation,Tension} 

While we have only

Spoiler

{Adhesion, Gravitation} {Gravitation, Division} {Division, Abrasion} {Abrasion, Progression} {Progression, Illumination} {Illumination, Transformation} {Transformation, Transportation} {Transportation, Cohesion} {Cohesion, Tension} {Tension, Adhesion}

So:

1. Why do you think these in particular were chosen when making the Knights Radiant
2. Theorize away at how the different combinations would manifest and how they could be used together. Like the Twinborn thread. 

I find:

• Division and Progression
• Adhesion and Gravitation
• Cohesion and Adhesion
• Transformation and Tension
• Division and Cohesion 

To be pretty interesting ideas.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Firesong

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, Firesong said:

• Why do you think these in particular were chosen when making the Knights Radiant

No idea. Ishar made a circle and combined neighboring Surges together? But seriously, True Spren were likely already limited in what Surges they can give, based on their mixture of Honor and Cultivation's investiture and their individual nature. A Honorspren wouldn't be able to use Progression as that's more aligned with Cultivation than Honor. The orders simply represented the nature of existing spren and were bound that way. Now if new sapient spren were to appear they might mess the system up. Or Ishar's bindings prevented humans from becoming Radiants by for example bonding with Ulim. 

Or, which I think is the most likely possibility, this has nothing to do with Radiants. Ishar formalized Radiants by limiting their power and capabilities, chaining them with Oaths and Ideals. Powers of proto-Radiants were still the same as now, but then they weren't limited by Oaths.

9 minutes ago, Firesong said:

1. Theorize away at how the different combinations would manifest and how they could be used together. Like the Twinborn thread. 

You might be interested in this one: 

 

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Firesong said:

Why do you think these in particular were chosen when making the Knights Radiant

I'm pretty sure we already have this answer. Honor forged the Ten Honorblades and paired the surges based on how they resonate with each other. Sapient Spren wanted to mimic the Honorblades and came to embody those surge pairings based on their resonance with the surge pair. So:

• Honorblades > led to
• Heralds > led to
• ProtoRadiants and the Oathpact (which bound the heralds and the expression of surges by Nahel Bond) > led to
• Surgebinders solo > led to
• Organized Knights Radiant (without Herald sponsorship) > led to
• The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant

[Letryx13]

I've actually wondered why each herald gained the specific surges they did.  I wonder if it had anything to do with what surge binding powers they had before coming to Roshar, or if it was based on their personalities.

I'm basically copying my post from the thread alder24 shared with you, but here's the better of two orders that came up with.

Order: Life Givers, people who like to help and find purpose in people relying on them

Surges: Progression and Transformation

True Spren- Cooperation Spren, nickname Builders

Plate Spren- Hunger Spren

Resonance-Enhanced mathematical skill.  Useful for determining how much food communities need.

Ideal Theme-Supporting life and growth, usually in a charity kind of way

Ideals;

First-Oath of Radiance

Second-I will guard growth and support life 

Third-I will teach those who need it to support themselves

Fourth-I will accept the taking of life, if it is done in the service of life

Fifth-I will leave when I am no longer needed

Not completely sure about the order of the third and fourth ideals, but I think they're both appropriate.

I drew inspiration for this from the Wizard's oath from the Young Wizards series and a couple of other sources.  

[Scars of Hathsin he/him]

There may be more surges than we know of,

as I forgot which book it was in, but Syl talks about "other surges" not "the other surges".

Please shoot down my theory if I am wrong. 

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Scars of Hathsin said:

There may be more surges than we know of,

as I forgot which book it was in, but Syl talks about "other surges" not "the other surges".

Please shoot down my theory if I am wrong. 

Right, but that's because Rosharans call everything a Surge or Surgebinding. Allomancy is a Surgebinding for them. But it's still possible:

Spoiler

Argent

Spren grant control over surges because surges are perceived as fundamental powers on Roshar. Would other Cognitive beings grant different powers based on what they perceive to be fundamental? Such as electromagnetism is on Earth?

Brandon Sanderson

It is plausible, although this was set up in a specific way.

Argent

By Honor or Adonalsium?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO on that. Set up might be the wrong word. There were seeds that caused this to happen the way it did.

Argent

The Surgebinding thing?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, specifically... Those influenced what people perceived as fundamental forces.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Argent

My understanding of the... spren is that they grant powers based on what they understand to be fundamental? Ish?

Brandon Sanderson

Ish. I wouldn't 100% go with that. I would say these are the fundamental forces-- They aren't as scientific as our fundamental forces, but I would say it's more than just what the spren view and what the humans view in that case. But they are more philosophical than scientific, in cases.

Argent

Other cognitive beings, could they-- A spren on Earth. Would it grant electromagnetism surge, for example?

Brandon Sanderson

That, I would say yes.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

 

And this WoB seems to be kind of related to this topic:

Spoiler

Argent

In the Syl interlude in Rhythm of War, she is speaking with Dalinar about his powers and the things those powers have done in the past. And what she says is "a Bondsmith bound other Surges". First of all, what other Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

One potential interpretation for you on this, remember they use Surge and spren sometimes interchangeably in-world. Just making you aware of that.

Argent

Yeah I'm aware of that. Bound other Surges....

Brandon Sanderson

That might be what she's talking about. I'm not guaranteeing it.

Argent

Then the term Bondsmith. To me it seems like she's talking about Ishar and the Ashyn stuff. So would they use Bondsmith to describe him in that place?

Brandon Sanderson

So one other thing to keep aware of in the cosmere - for instance they call "Lightweaving" any illusion-based magic working on the same fundamentals. And so you could argue - and people will use it that way in-world - that Bondsmithing is both an order [of Knights Radiant] and a power that exists outside the order.

Argent

And that would be maybe the power of Connection, the way Lightweaving is the power of illusion?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. And for instance, there were not Elsecallers to get people between Ashyn and Roshar, but on Roshar they would explain what happened there as Elsecalling. Does that make sense?

Argent

I mean, as much as these things make sense, yes.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

If Bondsmith bound other Surges, and Syl meant spren, would this mean that Ishar did something to prevent other spren from granting different set of Surges?

[+robardin he/him]

15 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I'm pretty sure we already have this answer. Honor forged the Ten Honorblades and paired the surges based on how they resonate with each other. Sapient Spren wanted to mimic the Honorblades and came to embody those surge pairings based on their resonance with the surge pair. So:

• Honorblades > led to
• Heralds > led to
• ProtoRadiants and the Oathpact (which bound the heralds and the expression of surges by Nahel Bond) > led to
• Surgebinders solo > led to
• Organized Knights Radiant (without Herald sponsorship) > led to
• The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant

I am not sure the Oathpact of the Heralds affected the "Proto-Radiants" who first formed Nahel bonds with sentient spren.

It's not necessarily a reliable source, as even in-world Words of Radiance was compiled 200+ years after the Recreance, but it does mention that Ishar threatened to destroy the first holders of Nahel bonds "unless they agreed to be bound by oaths and precepts" (the Five Ideals).

And Syl says those first bonds caught even Honor and Ishar by surprise. It wasn't originally part of the whole Oathpact / Fused / Heralds / Braize design for Desolation cycles.

[Treamayne]

5 minutes ago, robardin said:

I am not sure the Oathpact of the Heralds affected the "Proto-Radiants" who first formed Nahel bonds with sentient spren.

It's not necessarily a reliable source, as even in-world Words of Radiance was compiled 200+ years after the Recreance, but it does mention that Ishar threatened to destroy the first holders of Nahel bonds "unless they agreed to be bound by oaths and precepts" (the Five Ideals).

And Syl says those first bonds caught even Honor and Ishar by surprise. It wasn't originally part of the whole Oathpact / Fused / Heralds / Braize design for Desolation cycles.

Good catch, thanks. If I am following: a similar (lowercase) oath pact binding the Nahel Bond to Oaths, but not a part of the original (big O) Oathpact. I knew the first Nahel bods caught everybody off guard - for some reason I just thought binding the Oathpact included binding the Nahel Bond to oaths.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Frustration]

The surge combinations seen on Roshar are a natural result of the magic

Spoiler

Khyrindor (paraphrased)

Do the Honorblades reflect the natural pairing of Surges, or did Honor decide which Surge pair to put in each Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The pairs are natural to Roshar in the same way as the metals on Scadrial.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/145/#e2718

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Frustration