Ranking beings on their investiture.

[Frustration]

So in Yumi we learned that Returned are less invested than Elantrians who are in turn about the same as Yoki-hijo.

Later Brandon said that Heralds were less than Elantrians, though they varied due to how well they kept their promises and such.

 

So I thought I'd try and rank other invested individuals on this scale.

 

Awakeners already pair nicely with Returned so we don't need to consider them.

Radiants are in many ways similar to Yoki-hijo so I feel relatively confident placing oath 5 Radiants near them, if not equal to, though the Heralds being lower than them does make me hesitant to do so.

Mistborn and Feruchemists I would probably place in the same spot, and well below Returned.

Sandmasters I would place just below them.

I'm still not sure where to place Aetherbound.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

So in Yumi we learned that Returned are less invested than Elantrians who are in turn about the same as Yoki-hijo.

Later Brandon said that Heralds were less than Elantrians, though they varied due to how well they kept their promises and such.

 

So I thought I'd try and rank other invested individuals on this scale.

 

Awakeners already pair nicely with Returned so we don't need to consider them.

Radiants are in many ways similar to Yoki-hijo so I feel relatively confident placing oath 5 Radiants near them, if not equal to, though the Heralds being lower than them does make me hesitant to do so.

Mistborn and Feruchemists I would probably place in the same spot, and well below Returned.

Sandmasters I would place just below them.

I'm still not sure where to place Aetherbound.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

That can't be right. Don't you think that a device made on Roshar, called Fabrial, for measuring investment of soula, should be capable of measuring investment of Radiants? Yoki-Hijo seems to be unique for some reason. Their bond might be similar to Nahel Bond but far more greater than that of Roshar - or that's something very different, not bond related. Or it's just Yumi who is unique because Spirits messed with her soul.

That's how I would rank them (without them holding any additional static investiture):

1. Shades
2. Mistings/Ferrings/Regals?
3. Allomancers/Feruchemists/Radiants/Sand Masters (possibly here or below?)
4. Aetherbound
5. True Spren ? 
6. Returned
7. Fused
8. Heralds
9. Elantrians/Yumi 

Awakeners are on a sliding scale. Depending on the amount of Breaths they have they can be more as invested as Mistings (1 Breath) or even far more invested than Elantrains (Susebron). On Average Awakeners wouldn't be able to gather so many Breaths to be of the 5th Heightening, more like 2nd-3rd.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

That can't be right. Don't you think that a device made on Roshar, called Fabrial, for measuring investment of soula, should be capable of measuring investment of Radiants?

Did it say that it couldn't?

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Yoki-Hijo seems to be unique for some reason.

They do?

Nothing seemed that different from Radiants.

[alder24]

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Did it say that it couldn't?

It couldn't handle Yumi's investiture. ch 34:

Quote

“Storms,” Design said. “Yeah, this is like… Returned-level Investiture. No, more. Elantrian-level. The device isn’t built for that kind of reading— and you’re screwing with the system something crazy. It’s kind of fun. Oooh. I wonder if you’ll explode when you die.”

 

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They do?

Nothing seemed that different from Radiants.

They aren't connected to spirits on a regular basis, they draw them in and give them part of their innate investiture to manifest spirits in PR. Or they are connected to numerous spirits at the same time. I don't think they have Nahel Bond like Radiants have. They have something different. Design hasn't mentioned any connections to spren or spirits in her - she could clearly see her connections to people.

And the recent WoB stated that Yumi is even more invested than what traditionally Yuki-Hijo used to be. Something in her being trapped and trained for millenia made her more invested somehow.

Spoiler

Argent

If we are looking at very highly Invested beings, we have Yumi, and we are told that she is more Invested than Elantrians, more Invested than Returned. Let's compare Yumi, Elantrians, and Heralds. Who is most Invested, who is least Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Of those, probably Heralds... The thing is, the Heralds varied. How in tune and aligned they are with their oaths, their promise... It wasn't Oaths, but they did promise certain things when they became Heralds. It was pre Knights Radiants, it's not as formalized as Oaths. How in line with the power of Honor, how in line with the kind of natural Investiture of Roshar--which is separate from Honor, Cultivation and Odium--are they, how can they draw upon that. I will call them the least of the three though.

Argent

So Heralds on the bottom, and Yumi on top, and Elantrians in the middle?

Brandon Sanderson

Yumi on top, but Yumi's very close to an Elantrian. They're within the same conversation. And most of the yoki-hijo were traditionally in the past less, they've gained Investiture over time.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

[Frustration]

40 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It couldn't handle Yumi's investiture. ch 34:

It clearly could it just stretched it's limits. And why would it be made to handle Radiants?

41 minutes ago, alder24 said:

They aren't connected to spirits on a regular basis, they draw them in and give them part of their innate investiture to manifest spirits in PR. Or they are connected to numerous spirits at the same time. I don't think they have Nahel Bond like Radiants have. They have something different. Design hasn't mentioned any connections to spren or spirits in her - she could clearly see her connections to people.

It's a one way bond versus the ability to temporarily bond multiple. No more different than the various forms of lightweaving.

44 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And the recent WoB stated that Yumi is even more invested than what traditionally Yuki-Hijo used to be. Something in her being trapped and trained for millenia made her more invested somehow.

  Reveal hidden contents

Argent

If we are looking at very highly Invested beings, we have Yumi, and we are told that she is more Invested than Elantrians, more Invested than Returned. Let's compare Yumi, Elantrians, and Heralds. Who is most Invested, who is least Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Of those, probably Heralds... The thing is, the Heralds varied. How in tune and aligned they are with their oaths, their promise... It wasn't Oaths, but they did promise certain things when they became Heralds. It was pre Knights Radiants, it's not as formalized as Oaths. How in line with the power of Honor, how in line with the kind of natural Investiture of Roshar--which is separate from Honor, Cultivation and Odium--are they, how can they draw upon that. I will call them the least of the three though.

Argent

So Heralds on the bottom, and Yumi on top, and Elantrians in the middle?

Brandon Sanderson

Yumi on top, but Yumi's very close to an Elantrian. They're within the same conversation. And most of the yoki-hijo were traditionally in the past less, they've gained Investiture over time.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

Yes, but not that much more.

[Werewolff Studios]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

Awakeners already pair nicely with Returned so we don't need to consider them.

Radiants are in many ways similar to Yoki-hijo so I feel relatively confident placing oath 5 Radiants near them, if not equal to, though the Heralds being lower than them does make me hesitant to do so.

Mistborn and Feruchemists I would probably place in the same spot, and well below Returned.

Sandmasters I would place just below them.

I'm still not sure where to place Aetherbound.

Hmm, I feel like it depends a little on what we mean by Invested. Haven't we been told that Radiants aren't specifically that highly Invested in and of themselves, but the higher the Oath the more efficient they are with Stormlight?

If so, I don't believe they'd be close to Elantrian level in terms of 'being Invested'; they may be able to hold that much Investiture, but it's not conjoined with their spiritweb in the same way that the Dor and Breaths are. And if we say it's the bond of a single spren specifically that takes you to that Investiture level, then we should also consider those bonded to a seon to be at the same level. 

I could be wrong about that though; feel free to correct me if that's the case.

That being said, I reckon @alder24 's list would be pretty close in a general sense - not considering specific characters and investiture storage. 

[therunner]

I think Radiants should be below Heralds, if Heralds are holding to their Oaths. It seems that while Honor lived and they held to their Oaths they were basically sort of bonded to Honor, which is...yeah

That said, when holding enough Stormlight I think both Heralds and Radiants are bumped up the ladder considerably.
After all, Elantrians glow because they are non-stop channeling Dor, so Radiant holding enough Stormlight should bump them up to that realm. I think not to Elantrian level, since holding the power would have effects, but still beyond Mistborn etc., possibly to Fused level.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

It clearly could it just stretched it's limits. And why would it be made to handle Radiants?

You want me to believe that they made a fabrial on Roshar for measuring investiture that isn't capable of reliably measuring investiture of most commonly present invested people on Roshar? Really? Why do that then?

Moreover we know Radiants and Mistborn are similarly invested. If they both were as invested as Elantrians, which is above even that of Returned, they should be so invested that they could just become a CS on their own. That's clearly not the case as Kel proved. Moreover they don't show any visible effects of highly invested beings like Returned do. They're less invested than Returned.

Spoiler

Blightsong

Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Investiture resists Investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right?

Questioner

Is a Mistborn Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

The Mistborn, while they're burning the metal. They are not specifically Invested when they are not burning. When the Investiture becomes active, then yes. Before, no.

Blightsong

So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was Invested, but because he had the potential to use Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time using the magic will Invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as Invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the Spiritweb. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the Spiritual Realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder.

Questioner

Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yeah. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Because Zahel was especially Invested when he died, he became that other soul. Does that mean that Elend wasn't actually...?

Brandon Sanderson

Zahel is a special case. What happened with him is, on his planet, he was specifically chosen by the Shard to be Returned. That happens, you don't have to be specifically Invested for that. The god gives them that. Now, to become a Cognitive Shadow, which is what certain people in the cosmere are, you need a powerful amount, an enormous amount.

Questioner

So not the bead?

Brandon Sanderson

Not just being a Mistborn, not just... he wasn't even close to being where he needed to be, if you want to end up as a Cognitive Shadow. You need to do some special hoops. We're talking, drawing forth the power of a Shard, or being endowed with the power of a Shard, or a certain number of Breaths would do it. There is a threshold that you could get, you're gonna end up as a Cognitive Shadow.

FanX 2021 (Sept. 17, 2021)

 

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

It's a one way bond versus the ability to temporarily bond multiple. No more different than the various forms of lightweaving.

Again, we don't know what Yuki-Hijo do.

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

Yes, but not that much more.

And you know this from where? They were trapped for 1700 years getting invested more and more. We don't know their true nature.

 

 

Also I'm wrong about Shades. They are comparable to Returned or True Spren. They are highly invested, which is weird as Threnodites usually aren't that highly invested. There is a mechanism that invests people after their death.

Spoiler

Questioner

Could a Threnody Shade survive on another world?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically, yes. But they are highly Invested, and leaving a world where you're highly Invested behind when you have that Investiture is difficult, as Kelsier discovered, and as most spren discover.

Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

In Secret History, Nazh briefly mentioned that there's requirements or conditions to become a Cognitive Shadow. Can you tell us one of those?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, lots of Investiture. Is one way. As a certain person discovered.

Questioner

If that person were to not have entered Preservation's pool, it still would have given the same result?

Brandon Sanderson

If they had not, they would be gone.

Questioner

I wasn't clear. If they had done a different pool, not Preservation's.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, if they had been able to Invest themselves heavily, then they could have stuck around, yes. That wasn't Preservation's pool, that was more a function of--dipping themselves, pulling an Achilles inside of a Shardpool when you are dead, turned out to work. It's not the only way, not everyone on... Threnody, for instance, is heavily Invested.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

4 hours ago, therunner said:

I think Radiants should be below Heralds, if Heralds are holding to their Oaths. It seems that while Honor lived and they held to their Oaths they were basically sort of bonded to Honor, which is...yeah

That's an interesting way to describe it. Make sense. Especially because Honor supplied them directly with Stormlight. It looks like Taln is the most invested Herald of them all, and might be strongly connected to remains of Honor, which puts him as a candidate for its Vessel.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

That said, when holding enough Stormlight I think both Heralds and Radiants are bumped up the ladder considerably.
After all, Elantrians glow because they are non-stop channeling Dor, so Radiant holding enough Stormlight should bump them up to that realm. I think not to Elantrian level, since holding the power would have effects, but still beyond Mistborn etc., possibly to Fused level.

I agree holding Stormlight would invest them more but not that much. At least not on average. Maybe something like Kaladin infusing himself with Stormlight from royal gem reserves when deflecting stone during the Kholinar siege might get close to Returned.

That made me think now if a power of Dalinar's perpendicularity could make somebody into CS? Would that be enough?

Spoiler

tskyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.

But RAFO to specifics.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

[therunner]

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's an interesting way to describe it. Make sense. Especially because Honor supplied them directly with Stormlight. It looks like Taln is the most invested Herald of them all, and might be strongly connected to remains of Honor, which puts him as a candidate for its Vessel.

The mortal most strongly Connected to remains of Honor is Dalinar, by the virtue of bonding Stormfather who actually is most of those remains.

Taln would probably be second, though question is what Honor's death did to Oathpact.

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I agree holding Stormlight would invest them more but not that much. At least not on average. Maybe something like Kaladin infusing himself with Stormlight from royal gem reserves when deflecting stone during the Kholinar siege might get close to Returned.

Oh yeah, most of the time from a couple of gems they would not be on that level.
But like you say during Battle of Theylen fields, I wager most were in the ballpark of Returned.

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That made me think now if a power of Dalinar's perpendicularity could make somebody into CS? Would that be enough?

I'd say so, though question is how to infuse them with it properly. Kelsier had something done to him by Fuzz, so it is not as simple as taking a dip.

[alder24]

41 minutes ago, therunner said:

I'd say so, though question is how to infuse them with it properly. Kelsier had something done to him by Fuzz, so it is not as simple as taking a dip.

Usually yes, but per WoB just being sufficiently invested in the moment of death is enough to make one into a CS. That's what I was thinking about - how much investiture is enough?

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

You want me to believe that they made a fabrial on Roshar for measuring investiture that isn't capable of reliably measuring investiture of most commonly present invested people on Roshar? Really? Why do that then?

I don't believe it ever said that it was made on Roshar, especially considering any form of Investiture device will be called a fabrial in the future.

Just like how the Father Machine was awakened but they didn't use breaths for it.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Moreover we know Radiants and Mistborn are similarly invested. If they both were as invested as Elantrians, which is above even that of Returned, they should be so invested that they could just become a CS on their own. That's clearly not the case as Kel proved. Moreover they don't show any visible effects of highly invested beings like Returned do. They're less invested than Returned.

  Reveal hidden contents

Blightsong

Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Investiture resists Investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right?

Questioner

Is a Mistborn Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

The Mistborn, while they're burning the metal. They are not specifically Invested when they are not burning. When the Investiture becomes active, then yes. Before, no.

Blightsong

So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was Invested, but because he had the potential to use Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time using the magic will Invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as Invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the Spiritweb. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the Spiritual Realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder.

Questioner

Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yeah. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Because Zahel was especially Invested when he died, he became that other soul. Does that mean that Elend wasn't actually...?

Brandon Sanderson

Zahel is a special case. What happened with him is, on his planet, he was specifically chosen by the Shard to be Returned. That happens, you don't have to be specifically Invested for that. The god gives them that. Now, to become a Cognitive Shadow, which is what certain people in the cosmere are, you need a powerful amount, an enormous amount.

Questioner

So not the bead?

Brandon Sanderson

Not just being a Mistborn, not just... he wasn't even close to being where he needed to be, if you want to end up as a Cognitive Shadow. You need to do some special hoops. We're talking, drawing forth the power of a Shard, or being endowed with the power of a Shard, or a certain number of Breaths would do it. There is a threshold that you could get, you're gonna end up as a Cognitive Shadow.

FanX 2021 (Sept. 17, 2021)

 

1. Ryan is multiple times more invested than Returned are, heck multiple times more than Elantrians are but she doesn't show any visible effects.

2. Eshoni despite having said only one oath was able to persist for the same amount of time as Kelsier. What happens at oath 5?

3. The only people we see stick around as CS so far have either ascended, been touched by direct Shardaic intervention. The exceptions being shades of Threnody which is noted as being unusual even to Khriss, as well as having a 'wounded' spiritual realm. Whatever that means. Or the shroud, which was artificially sustained.

4. We have no evidence that Elantrians can simply decide to stay as CS.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Again, we don't know what Yuki-Hijo do.

Considering how it's described the exact same way as those seeing Cusichesh the Protector, we have a pretty good idea.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Also I'm wrong about Shades. They are comparable to Returned or True Spren. They are highly invested, which is weird as Threnodites usually aren't that highly invested. There is a mechanism that invests people after their death.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Could a Threnody Shade survive on another world?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically, yes. But they are highly Invested, and leaving a world where you're highly Invested behind when you have that Investiture is difficult, as Kelsier discovered, and as most spren discover.

Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

In Secret History, Nazh briefly mentioned that there's requirements or conditions to become a Cognitive Shadow. Can you tell us one of those?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, lots of Investiture. Is one way. As a certain person discovered.

Questioner

If that person were to not have entered Preservation's pool, it still would have given the same result?

Brandon Sanderson

If they had not, they would be gone.

Questioner

I wasn't clear. If they had done a different pool, not Preservation's.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, if they had been able to Invest themselves heavily, then they could have stuck around, yes. That wasn't Preservation's pool, that was more a function of--dipping themselves, pulling an Achilles inside of a Shardpool when you are dead, turned out to work. It's not the only way, not everyone on... Threnody, for instance, is heavily Invested.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

Technically he didn't say that, he said that having a lot of Investiture was one way to become a CS, not the only way.

8 hours ago, therunner said:

I think Radiants should be below Heralds, if Heralds are holding to their Oaths. It seems that while Honor lived and they held to their Oaths they were basically sort of bonded to Honor, which is...yeah

I agree, but where they are right now, without their honorblades and with the exception of Taln actively rejecting their Oaths...

I think they are probably below the higher oath Radiants.

[NameIess]

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I agree, but where they are right now, without their honorblades and with the exception of Taln actively rejecting their Oaths...

I think they are probably below the higher oath Radiants.

Heralds are still immortal, and we have no reason to believe that even Fifth ideal Radiants get invested enough for that. It could be something to do with the nature of the Nahel bond that doesn't allow for immortality that way, but still, no immortality is a big indicator towards Heralds still being more invested than Radiants.

[Frustration]

24 minutes ago, Nameless* said:

Heralds are still immortal, and we have no reason to believe that even Fifth ideal Radiants get invested enough for that. It could be something to do with the nature of the Nahel bond that doesn't allow for immortality that way, but still, no immortality is a big indicator towards Heralds still being more invested than Radiants.

Probably.

Though I would note, just to play devil's advocate as I don't actually believe this, that we don't know that they aren't immortal, at least immortal in the same way fifth heightening awakeners are.

 

Edit: Yoki-Hijo aren't immortal either, and neither was TLR.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Frustration

[NameIess]

46 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Probably.

Though I would note, just to play devil's advocate as I don't actually believe this, that we don't know that they aren't immortal, at least immortal in the same way fifth heightening awakeners are.

Yeah. We don't have reason to believe it, but it also hasn't been hard deconfirmed.

47 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Edit: Yoki-Hijo aren't immortal either, and neither was TLR.

Yoki-Hijo weren't immortal, but they are now after the Investiture they gained after the Father Machine's activation. TLR was immortal in the sense that he had enough Investiture to be a CS if he wanted and I guess he could have been immortal enough to never die of old age if Vin hadn't killed him, but that does indicate that there may not be a simple Investiture threshold that, if passed, makes one immortal. It may depend on the form that the Investiture takes. Still, with Stormlight healing, I think the KR's Investiture is very suited towards making them immortal, if they did meet the threshold. 

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

I don't believe it ever said that it was made on Roshar, especially considering any form of Investiture device will be called a fabrial in the future.

Just like how the Father Machine was awakened but they didn't use breaths for it.

Fair point.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

1. Ryan is multiple times more invested than Returned are, heck multiple times more than Elantrians are but she doesn't show any visible effects.

You mean Rysn? She does. Look at the last WoB of that post.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

2. Eshoni despite having said only one oath was able to persist for the same amount of time as Kelsier. What happens at oath 5?

She was invested because she had sworn 2nd Oath (I will be free). Stormlight. And Stormfather direct intervention. She could only stay for minutes, Stormfather allowed her to ride the Storm and persist for hours. He invested her. RoW ch 116

Quote

What is this? Eshonai thought.
YOU WERE HIGHLY INVESTED WHEN YOU DIED, a voice said. It rumbled with the sound of a thousand storms, echoing through her. SO YOU PERSIST. FOR A SHORT TIME.
Invested? Eshonai thought.
YOU WERE RADIANT WHEN YOU DIED. YOU COULDN’T SAY THE WORDS, UNDER THE WATER, BUT I ACCEPTED THEM ANYWAY. HOW DO YOU THINK YOU SURVIVED THAT LONG WITHOUT BREATHING?
She floated. So … this is my soul?
SOME WOULD CALL IT THAT, said the Rider of Storms. SOME WOULD SAY IT IS A SPREN FORMED BY THE POWER YOU LEFT, IMPRINTED WITH YOUR MEMORIES. EITHER WAY, THIS IS THE END. YOU WILL PASS INTO ETERNITY SOON, AND EVEN I CANNOT SEE WHAT IS BEYOND.
How long? Eshonai asked.
MINUTES. NOT HOURS.[...]

NO, he said. I CAN GIVE YOU ONE FINAL GIFT.
Eshonai stopped stretching, and instead found herself pulled toward something powerful. She had no eyes, but she suddenly had an awareness— the storm. She had become the storm. She felt every rumble of thunder as her heartbeat.

Is there any clear confirmation that Radiants of higher Oath are more invested when it comes to their soul? 

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

3. The only people we see stick around as CS so far have either ascended, been touched by direct Shardaic intervention. The exceptions being shades of Threnody which is noted as being unusual even to Khriss, as well as having a 'wounded' spiritual realm. Whatever that means. Or the shroud, which was artificially sustained.

Yes, but one method to become a CS is to simply be highly invested. There is a threshold. How much invested we don't know. I think it's reasonable that if you're as invested as Returned, you will stick as CS. But that's just one option.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

4. We have no evidence that Elantrians can simply decide to stay as CS.

I think they might already be considered as weird CS. They aren't, they are something different, but this might be close enough to prevent them from becoming CS.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Considering how it's described the exact same way as those seeing Cusichesh the Protector, we have a pretty good idea.

What? Could you elaborate more?

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Technically he didn't say that, he said that having a lot of Investiture was one way to become a CS, not the only way.

My point was that not everyone on Threnody was that highly invested to become a highly invested CS. So something else is happening there, investing them when they're dying.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

You mean Rysn? She does. Look at the last WoB of that post.

She preceives color and taste better, but she doesn't glow or magnify colors.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

She was invested because she had sworn 2nd Oath (I will be free). Stormlight. And Stormfather direct intervention. She could only stay for minutes, Stormfather allowed her to ride the Storm and persist for hours. He invested her. RoW ch 116

The Stormlight ran out before she died, and I know the Stormfather intervened, but note how he specifically says minutes not hours, that's the same thing Leras says to Kelsier 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Is there any clear confirmation that Radiants of higher Oath are more invested when it comes to their soul? 

Nothing explicit that I recall.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

What? Could you elaborate more?

On Roshar there is a spren called Cusichesh the Protector. Axies does an explanation of it, but when it rises from the bay people feel drained watching it, the description is almost exactly the same as Yumi describes when she manifests spirits.

What Yumi is doing with multiple spirits Cusichesh is doing with multiple people.

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

She preceives color and taste better, but she doesn't glow or magnify colors.

I wouldn't be surprised if she has an aura of colors around her, but people on Roshar simply don't notice it because they don't recognise it. Also Dawnshard's effects are similar, not the same. She doesn't have to have it. But with Radiants don't showing any visible effects of investment I was more or less talking about color and sound recognision, the same things Rysn showed. 

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

The Stormlight ran out before she died, and I know the Stormfather intervened, but note how he specifically says minutes not hours, that's the same thing Leras says to Kelsier 

Right, which supports my position that Radiants and Mistborn are similarly invested. 

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

Nothing explicit that I recall.

Right. That's why I'm skeptical about Radiants of 5th Ideal being so much more invested than those of 1st one. Maybe there is a difference, but I think it would be a relatively small difference, not something huge. They definitely wouldn't be as invested as Returned, not to mention Heralds. I would say they would be more than Era 1 Mistorn, but on the same level as Lerasium Mistborn, like Elend. 

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

On Roshar there is a spren called Cusichesh the Protector. Axies does an explanation of it, but when it rises from the bay people feel drained watching it, the description is almost exactly the same as Yumi describes when she manifests spirits.

What Yumi is doing with multiple spirits Cusichesh is doing with multiple people.

Good catch, I didn't remember the draining happening there. 

I think the difference is that Yumi is giving spirits while Cusichesh is taking. But that doesn't really change anything. We still don't know what mechanism Cusichesh is using. It doesn't really tell us what Yumi is doing.

I would say that rather than forming a bond with spirits, she attracts them by stacking stones, which anchors them to PR and this makes them grateful enough so they are willing to manifest in PR by Yumi's request. But to manifest they need investiture, and this drains Yumi. Whether Yumi as Yuki-Hijo is always bonded with every spirit or she is just invested with Virtuosity's investiture to the point where she can interact with them is another question. Yuki-Hijo for me seems more similar to Horneater's Sighted or Singers than Radiants.

[JohnnyKaizen]

On 8/7/2023 at 6:08 PM, alder24 said:

How in line with the power of Honor, how in line with the kind of natural Investiture of Roshar--which is separate from Honor, Cultivation and Odium

Im sorry, what? There is "natural" investiture that is separate from the Shards? Just on Roshar? On every world? That seems like an important detail to me. 

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Im sorry, what? There is "natural" investiture that is separate from the Shards? Just on Roshar? On every world? That seems like an important detail to me. 

I think Brandon is talking to investiture of Adonalsium who created Roshar. Some Shards would be more or less invested, depending on what aspects of himself Adonalsium favored when creating Roshar (Cultivation was one of those). All 16 Shards are represented, but their mixture and proportions define the "natural investiture of Roshar" - that's my interpretation. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I think Brandon is talking to investiture of Adonalsium who created Roshar. Some Shards would be more or less invested, depending on what aspects of himself Adonalsium favored when creating Roshar (Cultivation was one of those). All 16 Shards are represented, but their mixture and proportions define the "natural investiture of Roshar" - that's my interpretation. 

I'm not sure if you mean that some Shards have less Investiture than others, but there are WoBs saying all Shards were originally equal in power.

Also, in RoW Ash says that Ishar was the one who made the Heralds immortal through Bondsmithing.

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

I wouldn't be surprised if she has an aura of colors around her, but people on Roshar simply don't notice it because they don't recognise it. Also Dawnshard's effects are similar, not the same. She doesn't have to have it. But with Radiants don't showing any visible effects of investment I was more or less talking about color and sound recognision, the same things Rysn showed. 

Elantrians don't see color differently, or taste any better. Both during and after the Reod.

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Right, which supports my position that Radiants and Mistborn are similarly invested.

At that oath level, Eshoni hadn't even gotten to third which is were they really start to see large leaps in power.

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

 Right. That's why I'm skeptical about Radiants of 5th Ideal being so much more invested than those of 1st one. Maybe there is a difference, but I think it would be a relatively small difference, not something huge.

There's a pretty big difference in power, and I'm not just talking about getting shards, though I feel that would count in some way as well. They get more efficient with Stormlight, and the Stormlight they use becomes more powerful.

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

not to mention Heralds.

I don't think them being more invested than Heralds causes a problem, Heralds are essentially Radiants who broke their Oaths, but they would be much more invested than such Radiants.

Now at their height Heralds would definitely be more invested, but right now I could see either way.

[alder24]

20 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I'm not sure if you mean that some Shards have less Investiture than others, but there are WoBs saying all Shards were originally equal in power.

Only on Roshar. 

21 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Also, in RoW Ash says that Ishar was the one who made the Heralds immortal through Bondsmithing.

WoB isn't about their immortality but their souls' investment.

 

15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

There's a pretty big difference in power, and I'm not just talking about getting shards, though I feel that would count in some way as well. They get more efficient with Stormlight, and the Stormlight they use becomes more powerful.

I wouldn't call it a big difference. This doesn't mean they are that much more invested. 

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't think them being more invested than Heralds causes a problem, Heralds are essentially Radiants who broke their Oaths, but they would be much more invested than such Radiants.

Now at their height Heralds would definitely be more invested, but right now I could see either way.

Impossible. Ivory or Jasnah said that you can search Heralds through CR, if every Radiant was glowing more than them, this wouldn't make sense. I see no possibility for any Radiant to be as invested as Heralds. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Elantrians don't see color differently, or taste any better. Both during and after the Reod.

That was before things like Heightenings being granted by general Investiture were canonised, we see in RoW that Riino detects Kaladin's presence in an uncannily similar way to Life Sense. It could be played off as not applying during the Reod and then the characters being too distracted to notice in the events afterwards. Yumi could have Heightenings too, but doesn't notice them as out of the ordinary or worth mentioning because she's had them since being chosen, which was within a year of her birth at most.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Only on Roshar.

Ah alright

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

WoB isn't about their immortality but their souls' investment.

I'm just pointing out that their Immortality isn't a product of their Investment, not directly

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Impossible. Ivory or Jasnah said that you can search Heralds through CR, if every Radiant was glowing more than them, this wouldn't make sense. I see no possibility for any Radiant to be as invested as Heralds. 

I do not recall that.

But even if they did you can tell if someone has been doing firemoss or not by looking in the CR.

2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That was before things like Heightenings being granted by general Investiture were canonised, we see in RoW that Riino detects Kaladin's presence in an uncannily similar way to Life Sense.

1. Riini could have breath, he even asks Kaladin what heightening he is.

2. Atium being detectable via steelsight was the same way, and an in world explanation was given. Raoden underwent an instant transformation, if colors suddenly sharpened he would have noticed.