The implications of how easy Trellium bombs and other WMDs are to make

[Frustration]

In The Lost Metal we are introduced to Harmonium/Trellium bombs, obviously intended to be nuclear stand ins.

 

However there is one main thing separating the two, Trellium bombs are much easier to make.

Indeed as Harmonium becomes more common, and as Trellium returns in era three it wouldn't be inconceivable for the ordinary person to make such a weapon.

 

So the question becomes: What happens when the doctrine of MAD applies to every possible interaction? Do you have police forces trained to sneak in and kill targets before they can detonate their weapons, is that even possible?

Do countless people die everyday because two people got in a fight and it just kept escalating? Do governments engage in mass surveillance in order to assure that they control who has these weapons and who doesn't?

 

Or perhaps do people end up more reasonable? WW2 is still the deadliest war in history, despite multiple wars occuring afterwards, largely due to the threat nuclear weapons presented. Do people risk killing others knowing that their victim could easily kill them before dying? Do police favor diplomacy rather than force as it is the only option they have? Is government overreach kept in check by the people having equal standing?

 

Ultimately we can't say as nothing like this has ever occurred on earth, but it is something to think about.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Frustration

[NameIess]

Harmonium may be relatively easy to acquire as potentially nuclear material goes, but I doubt that Trellium will ever become so widespread.

[alder24]

28 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Indeed as Harmonium becomes more common, and as Trellium returns in era three it wouldn't be inconceivable for the ordinary person to make such a weapon.

Harmonium more common? Not really, only Malwish has access to it as far as we know, and they don't want to share it with the Basin. Trellium source is unknown - it could be just brought through CR, for now it's all gone. Both Harmonium and Trellium therefore could be very easily sanctioned and controlled by the state at least in the north. In the same way you can't legally just own uranium without a proper license (as far as I know).

I wouldn't say that's easy to make. Not to mention 3000 degrees needed to start the reaction - for now it's impossible almost for anybody, in the future a bit more accessible. However a random guy buying a furnace capable of achieving such temperatures will definitely draw some attention.

36 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So the question becomes: What happens when the doctrine of MAD applies to every possible interaction? Do you have police forces trained to sneak in and kill targets before they can detonate their weapons, is that even possible?

Do countless people die everyday because two people got in a fight and it just kept escalating? Do governments engage in mass surveillance in order to assure that they control who has these weapons and who doesn't?

 

Or perhaps do people end up more reasonable? WW2 is still the deadliest war in history, despite multiple wars occuring afterwards, largely due to the threat nuclear weapons presented. Do people risk killing others knowing that their victim could easily kill them before dying? Do police favor diplomacy rather than force as it is the only option they have? Is government overreach kept in check by the people having equal standing?

 

Ultimately we can't say as nothing like this has ever occurred on earth, but it is something to think about.

Those questions seem weird to me. I cannot not compare it to gun laws in Europe (no discussion on that please) - while there are definitely a lot of illegal gun owners, especially in the crime sector - normally people just don't fight and escalate to shooting. Except for organized crime, people just won’t walk around with a pocket Trellium bomb and start blasting people out of existence after a bar disagreement. Expect some small scale terrorist attacks with the use of Trellium, but as long as both Trellium and Harmonium is sanctioned, those can be tracked and prevented from ever happening. Even if some small gangs could make one bomb, then I bet they wouldn’t want to because that would definitely attract the attention of the government and they would all get jailed before they could make one. 

I expect the era 3 cold war to be balanced by the Basin having a few Trellium bombs from Set's leftovers (with developed missile systems), while the Malwish would have many weaker Harmonium bombs (with advanced airships).

[Frustration]

16 minutes ago, Nameless* said:

Harmonium may be relatively easy to acquire as potentially nuclear material goes, but I doubt that Trellium will ever become so widespread.

It might not, but I would doubt it, especially with how much emphasis was placed on it.

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Harmonium more common? Not really, only Malwish has access to it as far as we know, and they don't want to share it with the Basin.

They don't want to give it to the basin, but they have tons of it.

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

for now it's all gone.

Trell is coming back for era 3.

Spoiler

Questioner

Trell, who is he? Or if you're not going to reveal that, when will you...

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to take a little while to dig into that. It's going to need Mistborn Era 3, is all the Trell stuff.

Questioner

But I want more Wayne! Wayne is amazing!

Brandon Sanderson

I know! We've got one more book of Wayne. Wax and Wayne 4, we still got a book of Wayne. And then in Era 3, you'll be able to read the comic books in-world based on Wayne. So that'll be a part of it as well. You'll get a little touch of Wayne in there as well.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/377/#e12227

 

 

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

In the same way you can't legally just own uranium without a proper license (as far as I know).

You can, my chemistry teacher had some, you can just buy it online actually.

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I wouldn't say that's easy to make. Not to mention 3000 degrees needed to start the reaction - for now it's impossible almost for anybody, in the future a bit more accessible. However a random guy buying a furnace capable of achieving such temperatures will definitely draw some attention.

It's done through electricity, and is actually really easy to do, standard incandescent lightbulbs get their filaments that hot. Buying the materials needed wouldn't even raise eyebrows.

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

but as long as both Trellium and Harmonium is sanctioned, those can be tracked and prevented from ever happening.

Not really, considering how little you need tracking amounts that small would be almost impossible. Look to the drug trade for example, some of the heaviest surveillance and search measures are used to try and contain it, but it still penetrates every country.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

It might not, but I would doubt it, especially with how much emphasis was placed on it.

Trell may come back, but that doesn't mean that Trell will be able to begin investing Scadrial again. Even if that does happen, Trellium will still be containable as it currently is. The only scenario in which it wouldn't be is if Trell specifically started handing out not just Trellium but also the knowledge of how to make Trellium bombs.

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, Nameless* said:

Trell may come back, but that doesn't mean that Trell will be able to begin investing Scadrial again. Even if that does happen, Trellium will still be containable as it currently is. The only scenario in which it wouldn't be is if Trell specifically started handing out not just Trellium but also the knowledge of how to make Trellium bombs.

The knowledge isn't a problem, we know how to make nukes, and Wax figured his out within 24 hours.

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Trell is coming back for era 3.

It doesn't mean that everyone suddenly will have access to Trellium, more that there will be another secret organization like Set, likely this time Autonomy wouldn't want to just destroy Scadrial and will change her goals, trying to turn them against Harmony/Discord.

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You can, my chemistry teacher had some, you can just buy it online actually.

Ok, plutonium then.

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not really, considering how little you need tracking amounts that small would be almost impossible. Look to the drug trade for example, some of the heaviest surveillance and search measures are used to try and contain it, but it still penetrates every country.

Yeah, but drugs can be made everywhere, Harmonium and Trellium only in a few places. Cut off those places and you have control.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

It mentions in the books somewhere that the Elendel government has enough Trellium squirelled away to be dangerous, so even if more doesn't come into being later, there's still that original stash.

Quote

No harmonium meant no airships. And no Investiture bombs, though trellium was the rarer component of that particular device. Unfortunately, the Basin had enough of both metals squirreled away to be dangerous. And despite his arguments against it, the Basin had been looking into developing weapons using those remnants.

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It doesn't mean that everyone suddenly will have access to Trellium, more that there will be another secret organization like Set, likely this time Autonomy wouldn't want to just destroy Scadrial and will change her goals, trying to turn them against Harmony/Discord.

But there will be some, and you don't need a lot to make a bomb. And how can it be a Mistborn book about Trell and not feature Trellium?

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Ok, plutonium then.

Yeah, but drugs can be made everywhere, Harmonium and Trellium only in a few places. Cut off those places and you have control.

Harmonium is needed for every aspect of future Scadrian living: airships, primer cubes, mechanical investiture, etc.

It all needs Harmonium, that would be like trying to track where every piece of aluminum was.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

Just a little crack theory that's struck me seeing all the Discord/Harmony vs Autonomy talk, what if Autonomy's next plan is to drive The SoScads and Elendelians to war against each other, to try and exacerbate Harmony's inner Discord dilemma?

[NameIess]

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The knowledge isn't a problem, we know how to make nukes, and Wax figured his out within 24 hours.

Still, it won't be as common as you're making it out to be.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless* said:

Still, it won't be as common as you're making it out to be.

Here's a list of everything stoping a average person from making a nuclear weapon.

1. Refining uranium, this is not required for Harmonium/Trellium bombs

2. The specific intricacies of making the bomb go off, which requires specific amounts of force at specific times. This also is not required for Harmonium/Trellium bombs.

 

With that I ask you: Why will Harmonium/Trellium bombs not be more widespread? Especially when considering how easy other WMD's are to make in the Cosmere?

[Quantus he/him]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Here's a list of everything stoping a average person from making a nuclear weapon.

1. Refining uranium, this is not required for Harmonium/Trellium bombs

2. The specific intricacies of making the bomb go off, which requires specific amounts of force at specific times. This also is not required for Harmonium/Trellium bombs.

 

With that I ask you: Why will Harmonium/Trellium bombs not be more widespread? Especially when considering how easy other WMD's are to make in the Cosmere?

Even without refinement requirements, harmonium will never be as abundant as uranium (or any naturally occurring element) is on earth, and Trellium might as well be a unique Meteor rock since it's fundamentally not native.  Im not saying they wont be factors in future events, but it'll be the realm of Governments (and there arent many by Cold War standards) and whatever criminal/insurrection groups that are able to acquire that tier of weapon tech.  Harmonium might be required for a lot of tech so it will be somewhat available.  Trellium, on the other hand, can be locked down and controlled pretty well since it only has applications for superweapons and shardic heresies. 

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Here's a list of everything stoping a average person from making a nuclear weapon.

1. Refining uranium, this is not required for Harmonium/Trellium bombs

2. The specific intricacies of making the bomb go off, which requires specific amounts of force at specific times. This also is not required for Harmonium/Trellium bombs.

 

With that I ask you: Why will Harmonium/Trellium bombs not be more widespread? Especially when considering how easy other WMD's are to make in the Cosmere?

1. Refining uranium is difficult, yeah, but so is finding Trellium. Unless Trell manages to get another foothold on Scadrial, which I find to be kinda unlikely, we won't have Trellium as something that's easy to get.

2. Yes, it is relatively easy to make a Trellium-Harmonium bomb, but I find it very likely that the exact details will be a government secret. The general populace will not find out for some time, and control over Trellium will make it difficult to experiment like Wax did. Maybe some organized groups will figure it out, but knowledge on Trellium-Harmonium bombs will not easily become widespread.

Now don't get me wrong, I do think that Trellium-Harmonium bombs will or could be a problem come era 3. However, I think you're overstating it. Trellium-Harmonium bombs will not be accessible to the average Scadrian. More organized groups might be able to get their hands on one, but police won't have to worry about random drug dealers pulling out city-destroying bombs.

[alder24]

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But there will be some, and you don't need a lot to make a bomb. And how can it be a Mistborn book about Trell and not feature Trellium?

It might be featured, but that doesn't mean it will be common.

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Harmonium is needed for every aspect of future Scadrian living: airships, primer cubes, mechanical investiture, etc.

It all needs Harmonium, that would be like trying to track where every piece of aluminum was.

Yes, that's why Malwish will be restricting Basin's access to Harmonium as much as possible, because they don't want to lose the advantage. You think Malwish will just give them Harmonium so we can have era 3 as we want it? The conflict between Malwish and the Basin will likely be a big part of era 3, it won't get resolved until the last book.

37 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Just a little crack theory that's struck me seeing all the Discord/Harmony vs Autonomy talk, what if Autonomy's next plan is to drive The SoScads and Elendelians to war against each other, to try and exacerbate Harmony's inner Discord dilemma?

That's very, very, very likely. I had the same thought while writing this post.

31 minutes ago, Frustration said:

1. Refining uranium, this is not required for Harmonium/Trellium bombs

You don't know in what form Harmony is mined. It can be some ore, it can be some alloy - you don't know it.

31 minutes ago, Frustration said:

2. The specific intricacies of making the bomb go off, which requires specific amounts of force at specific times. This also is not required for Harmonium/Trellium bombs.

For what Wax did - no, for what Set did - very likely yes. Bigger bombs might require you to coordinate your Trellium spikes so you could have harmonium being split in multiple places at once. You're off by 1 ms and your bomb will be much weaker as Trellium gets annihilated before it can be inserted. That’s how I imagine the Set’s bomb.

31 minutes ago, Frustration said:

With that I ask you: Why will Harmonium/Trellium bombs not be more widespread? Especially when considering how easy other WMD's are to make in the Cosmere?

Because the government can take control over methods of acquiring both Harmonium and Trellium and prevent them from getting in public hands. 

For now people don't even know what was on that Set's ship, or that Wayne had Lerasium which made him into Mistborn. They don't even know that Trellium exists or that Autonomy was interfering. I don't think that will change that soon.

Edited August 7, 2023 by alder24

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

Another random thought I'd like to toss out there:

While Im gonna side with Alder and say I don't think the opportunity and means to make an Investiture bomb will ever fall into the hands of a member of the public, and that neither their development nor their use will be nearly so ubiquitous as that, What if the Outer Cities (Bilming especially) get their hands on Bavadinium and Harmonium, and then the whole internal Basin conflict becomes way more dangerous? Bilming could easily have access to Bavadinium, either through the things they confiscated from the Set or through a member of the Set who was never caught, and I doubt that the local leaders of the Outer Cities would have passed up the opportunity to buy and hoard Harmonium the second the Malwish started selling. Wouldn't that be a nightmare 

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

Trellium, on the other hand, can be locked down and controlled pretty well since it only has applications for superweapons and shardic heresies. 

It serves as an investiture detector, and means of making hemalugic spikes that don't make you open to control.

Not to mention that Autonomy wouldn't want it controlled.

3 hours ago, Nameless* said:

2. Yes, it is relatively easy to make a Trellium-Harmonium bomb, but I find it very likely that the exact details will be a government secret. The general populace will not find out for some time, and control over Trellium will make it difficult to experiment like Wax did. Maybe some organized groups will figure it out, but knowledge on Trellium-Harmonium bombs will not easily become widespread.

The US government tried to keep the methods to make nuclear weapons a secret. Look how that worked out, and that's with something far more complex.

3 hours ago, Nameless* said:

Now don't get me wrong, I do think that Trellium-Harmonium bombs will or could be a problem come era 3. However, I think you're overstating it. Trellium-Harmonium bombs will not be accessible to the average Scadrian. More organized groups might be able to get their hands on one, but police won't have to worry about random drug dealers pulling out city-destroying bombs.

That is a possibility.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, that's why Malwish will be restricting Basin's access to Harmonium as much as possible, because they don't want to lose the advantage. You think Malwish will just give them Harmonium so we can have era 3 as we want it? The conflict between Malwish and the Basin will likely be a big part of era 3, it won't get resolved until the last book.

But the Malwish will lose control of Harmonium, or at least give it up. We already know that, Harmonium is necessary for Scadrian FTL drives.

Whether it happens in era 3 or after is immaterial, at some point it will happen.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

You don't know in what form Harmony is mined. It can be some ore, it can be some alloy - you don't know it.

Considering it can't be melted, we have a good idea.

But even if it did, the form it needs to be in for the bomb is the same form as it's technological applications.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

For what Wax did - no, for what Set did - very likely yes. Bigger bombs might require you to coordinate your Trellium spikes so you could have harmonium being split in multiple places at once. You're off by 1 ms and your bomb will be much weaker as Trellium gets annihilated before it can be inserted. That’s how I imagine the Set’s bomb.

You don't need a several MT weapon, a few KT serves the purpose of my initial post just as well.

Speaking of which, remind me to calculate how powerful the Set's bomb would have been, I've been meaning to do that again.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Because the government can take control over methods of acquiring both Harmonium and Trellium and prevent them from getting in public hands.

How do you restrict Harmonium when everyone needs it?

How do you deny hospitals that want gold primer cubes?

Are you going to handicap yourself by monopolizing the airline industry?

What about space travel? Manufacturing?

Everyone will want Harmonium tech.

 

And as stated above Autonomy will not allow Trellium to be controlled.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

For now people don't even know what was on that Set's ship, or that Wayne had Lerasium which made him into Mistborn. They don't even know that Trellium exists or that Autonomy was interfering. I don't think that will change that soon.

They very much know Trellium exists, or do you expect every single person who was involved in the raid on Set bases to collect it for the basin to stay quiet.

What about all the government officials, most of whom are inherited positions? At no point will one of them spill?

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But the Malwish will lose control of Harmonium, or at least give it up. We already know that, Harmonium is necessary for Scadrian FTL drives.

FTL is era 4. It won't happen in era 3. Era 3 might end with unification of Scadrial against a common enemy, which is Autonomy (or north or south winning a global war, or whatever), thus granting the Basin Harmonium. Possibly with a first space flight but likely within the Scadrial system only, to hint of incoming FTL. Or Malwish will develop FTL with the help of Ghostbloods. Either way that's how Era 3 will end, not start. And with futuristic technologies present in Era 4, like Aviar detectors, making detectors of Trellium/Harmonium and controlling their distribution and use with them will be very easy for an Era 4 government. 

If the Basin gets their hands on Harmonium, it will be very easy for them to monopolize it and control its use. Just seal the mines off and force federal ownership over them. Just like what Rashek did with Atium.

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How do you restrict Harmonium when everyone needs it?

Set up a little piece in every device that has Harmonium to break and spill water on Harmonium when someone tries to open it.

More sane approach: Register every device and force a special repair license. Limit the amount of devices with Harmonium every person can possess. Even force control of them. Force people to report a theft of such a device. Just make a proper regulations and it will give some level of control and safety,

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Are you going to handicap yourself by monopolizing the airline industry?

It kind of is in a way I want it to happen. Not everybody can be a pilot, not everybody can fix planes, not everybody can get into a cockpit, not every plane can take off or fly as it wants. There are very strict rules and regulations regarding every aspect of the air industry to make sure it's as safe as possible. That’s how you control it. 

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And as stated above Autonomy will not allow Trellium to be controlled.

In that case she won't give Trellium to Scadrial at all. We still don't know how it got there in the first place - if it's through perpendicularities, she might not have a choice in era 3 with Harmony/Ghostbloods having greater presence in CR and control over perpendicularities. I highly doubt it just manifested on Scadrial. 

17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They very much know Trellium exists, or do you expect every single person who was involved in the raid on Set bases to collect it for the basin to stay quiet.

I expect that not every person is a master of metallurgy able to recognize an alien metal never before seen on Scadrial. Who do you think those people are? They've found a fancy metal which they didn't recognize and was either given for analysis to the lab, or immediately confiscated by higher ups who work with Kandra and Harmony, preventing the knowledge of it from spreading. Not to mention there would be a very limited number of people possessing Trellium spikes at all. Common people would simply have no idea that Trellium exist.

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

What about all the government officials, most of whom are inherited positions? At no point will one of them spill?

Firstly there are likely laws preventing leaking government secrets. Secondly most wouldn't be aware too. Thirdly, leaks might happen, yes, but will people believe it, remember it, or take notice is a different thing. Lastly, it would be mostly in a general statement that there is an alien new metal used by the Set, without going into details. It's really hard to say what people on high positions know about Trellium, but it isn't common knowledge, that's for sure. 

[Frustration]

25 minutes ago, alder24 said:

FTL is era 4. It won't happen in era 3. Era 3 might end with unification of Scadrial against a common enemy, which is Autonomy (or north or south winning a global war, or whatever), thus granting the Basin Harmonium. Possibly with a first space flight but likely within the Scadrial system only, to hint of incoming FTL. Or Malwish will develop FTL with the help of Ghostbloods. Either way that's how Era 3 will end, not start. And with futuristic technologies present in Era 4, like Aviar detectors, making detectors of Trellium/Harmonium and controlling their distribution and use with them will be very easy for an Era 4 government. 

How on earth do you detect metals like that?

26 minutes ago, alder24 said:

If the Basin gets their hands on Harmonium, it will be very easy for them to monopolize it and control its use. Just seal the mines off and force federal ownership over them. Just like what Rashek did with Atium.

He had no way to control where the Atium went after he sold it. And neither will the government. Not to mention the huge black market that would create.

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Set up a little piece in every device that has Harmonium to break and spill water on Harmonium when someone tries to open it.

Ignoring the fact that that would kill hundreds, how do you replace the Harmonium?

33 minutes ago, alder24 said:

More sane approach: Register every device and force a special repair license. Limit the amount of devices with Harmonium every person can possess. Even force control of them. Force people to report a theft of such a device. Just make a proper regulations and it will give some level of control and safety,

That would be like trying to register and control the sale and distribution of Gasoline. It won't work.

 Again you are asking for a black market, or for people to simply take their stuff to the Malwish for faster and easier service.

Not to mention the massive effort that would be made to overturn that.

36 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It kind of is in a way I want it to happen. Not everybody can be a pilot, not everybody can fix planes, not everybody can get into a cockpit, not every plane can take off or fly as it wants. There are very strict rules and regulations regarding every aspect of the air industry to make sure it's as safe as possible. That’s how you control it. 

So how do crop dusters run? The private aircraft that will feed the population? That might not be a huge issue in the basin, but what about the roughs?

Not to mention that the Malwish clearly don't have this level of control, and they aren't likely to change that.

37 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 In that case she won't give Trellium to Scadrial at all. We still don't know how it got there in the first place - if it's through perpendicularities, she might not have a choice in era 3 with Harmony/Ghostbloods having greater presence in CR and control over perpendicularities. I highly doubt it just manifested on Scadrial. 

She doesn't really have a choice on that matter. Anytime a Shard exerts their influence in an area they become invested, if Autonomy takes the kind of action she wants there, especially making an Avatar, Trellium WILL form as a result.

39 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I expect that not every person is a master of metallurgy able to recognize an alien metal never before seen on Scadrial. Who do you think those people are? They've found a fancy metal which they didn't recognize and was either given for analysis to the lab, or immediately confiscated by higher ups who work with Kandra and Harmony, preventing the knowledge of it from spreading. Not to mention there would be a very limited number of people possessing Trellium spikes at all. Common people would simply have no idea that Trellium exist.

The Set members were confiscated, and all of their hideouts scoured, not to mention Elendel found enough to form a stockpile, and are actively testing it, people know. And even if they didn't Kelsier, who wants to democratize the powers will make sure they do.

41 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Firstly there are likely laws preventing leaking government secrets.

How well did that work for the Manhattan project?

42 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Secondly most wouldn't be aware too.

You want the bureaucracy to keep things secret from the elected representatives?

43 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's really hard to say what people on high positions know about Trellium, but it isn't common knowledge, that's for sure. 

Kelsier will make sure they know.

[therunner he/him]

I have one possible counter-argument I have not seen above:

Harmonium will stop being a thing in Era 3 (or prior), as a result of Harmony shifting to Discord.
Now, it would have to broadly keep most of its characteristics or have them changed in such a way that technology it allows is still feasible, for example instead of 'harmonizing' with nearby Invested power to 'discordize' and instead output opposite power: e.g. steelpushing stored into Discordium-primer cube would become Ironpull, Storing into metalmind would become tapping that metalmind (if that is how planes function).

Interestingly, this would allow non-Twinborn to access more than one power, provided they had access to such cubes (and that they exist )

Importantly, because of shift from unstable Harmony to stable Discord, 'Discordium' would no longer react the same way with Trellium.

Though extant Harmonium would continue to exist, so it would become guarded resource.

Edited August 8, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

How on earth do you detect metals like that?

They are invested... You detect investiture. That's how the era 4 device works.

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

He had no way to control where the Atium went after he sold it. And neither will the government. Not to mention the huge black market that would create.

He gave them to noble houses. That was his control. Ska Mistborn had to steal it from them.

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

Ignoring the fact that that would kill hundreds, how do you replace the Harmonium?

Hundreds? Not likely. Dozens yes. Send it back to the manufacturer who has the means to open the box without triggering water. At best you need just enough water for the explosion to destroy Harmonium, without triggering all of Harmonium to react with water. But don't focus too much on that idea.

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

That would be like trying to register and control the sale and distribution of Gasoline. It won't work.

This comparison makes no sense.

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

Again you are asking for a black market, or for people to simply take their stuff to the Malwish for faster and easier service.

Of course there will be black market. That's why you have police and harsh penalties for possessing such devices from a black market. You've vastly overestimated the implications of it. There wouldn't be people escalating a typical bar fight into a nuclear wasteland just because. If they have Harmonium but can't in any way access Trellium, they can't have H-T bomb.

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

So how do crop dusters run? The private aircraft that will feed the population?

By having a pilot licence...

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not to mention that the Malwish clearly don't have this level of control, and they aren't likely to change that.

What are you talking about? They fully closed any access to Harmonium for the Basin. Somehow Malwish already proved that you can do what I say, you can force control of that level to prevent unwanted people from getting their hands on harmonium. This literally proves my point.

We have no idea how common Harmonium is among Malwish. We've only seen military use of Harmonium - airships and primar cubes. Medallions don't need Harmonium. If that's the case Malwish themself have a very restricted access to Harmonium, people there just don't have it unless we're talking about special branches of the government or some industries, like transportation and military. That's it. That's the control I'm talking about.

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

She doesn't really have a choice on that matter. Anytime a Shard exerts their influence in an area they become invested, if Autonomy takes the kind of action she wants there, especially making an Avatar, Trellium WILL form as a result.

We don't know any of that. Most likely she made use of Autonomy's investiture already present in the system without directly investing it more, just like she did in the First of the Sun system and Patji. This doesn't have to manifest any physical investiture as that's only a little amount of it. She can if she wants, but she has control over it in this case. I think there were some clues that the Set brough investiture from other world, but can't find it in TLM.

Spoiler

ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

 

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

The Set members were confiscated, and all of their hideouts scoured, not to mention Elendel found enough to form a stockpile, and are actively testing it, people know. And even if they didn't Kelsier, who wants to democratize the powers will make sure they do.

You're wrong. People in power know. Kelsier wants to share Allomancy, not give everyone nukes... He didn't even share his information about Set's actions with Harmony or the government, which could prevent this whole situation from ever happening. Kel inaction caused the most amount of harm. Kel and Ghostbloods don't share information with people outside their organization. 

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

You want the bureaucracy to keep things secret from the elected representatives?

Military secrets... It's about national security. It already works like that.

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

Kelsier will make sure they know.

That's not how Kel acts, It's the very opposite. He won't share anything. And we know it!

 

5 hours ago, therunner said:

I have one possible counter-argument I have not seen above:

Harmonium will stop being a thing in Era 3 (or prior), as a result of Harmony shifting to Discord.
Now, it would have to broadly keep most of its characteristics or have them changed in such a way that technology it allows is still feasible, for example instead of 'harmonizing' with nearby Invested power to 'discordize' and instead output opposite power: e.g. steelpushing stored into Discordium-primer cube would become Ironpull, Storing into metalmind would become tapping that metalmind (if that is how planes function).

Interestingly, this would allow non-Twinborn to access more than one power, provided they had access to such cubes (and that they exist )

Importantly, because of shift from unstable Harmony to stable Discord, 'Discordium' would no longer react the same way with Trellium.

Though extant Harmonium would continue to exist, so it would become guarded resource.

Right. I forgot about that one. I also believe Discordium will be stable. I agree. And the idea of reverse Primer Cubes sounds fun. 

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

They are invested... You detect investiture. That's how the era 4 device works.

Everything is investiture, but not only that the investiture in shardmetals is inactive, not to mention how powerful such a device would have to be.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

He gave them to noble houses. That was his control. Ska Mistborn had to steal it from them.

But if one house wanted to sell to another, or even to the skaa if they were so inclined he would have no way of knowing, or any ability to control it.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

This comparison makes no sense.

Sure it does, gasoline is explosive, flammable, and dangerous in all the same ways as Harmonium on its own, and just like Harmonium it powers the world.

They might be able to tax the sale, but once I buy it: how I use it, when I use it, and if I decide to sell it again are all outside of their control.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

By having a pilot licence...

That wasn't the question, if you had a government monopolization of all aircraft, and required the level of control that you are suggesting. How on earth are crop dusters supposed to operate?

Is some Harmonium Control Unit™ supposed to come by every day and sell them the requisite amount of Harmonium and then collect anything that wasn't used?

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

What are you talking about? They fully closed any access to Harmonium for the Basin. Somehow Malwish already proved that you can do what I say, you can force control of that level to prevent unwanted people from getting their hands on harmonium. This literally proves my point.

No it doesn't, there is a huge difference between international trade and intranational trade. Not to mention most Malwish hate the basin to start with, seeing them as barbarians.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

We have no idea how common Harmonium is among Malwish. We've only seen military use of Harmonium - airships and primar cubes. Medallions don't need Harmonium. If that's the case Malwish themself have a very restricted access to Harmonium, people there just don't have it unless we're talking about special branches of the government or some industries, like transportation and military. That's it. That's the control I'm talking about.

Considering that Alak can just give Marasi primer cubes despite him having an only ceremonial position, they must be pretty common.

 

Considering they can waste huge amounts of it just to build bombs they have a lot of it.

 

Considering that the Admiral in TLM thought that they had enough Ettmetal that they could destroy Elendel in one bombing run, and didn't seem at all worried about the cost, they have a lot.

 

So with that much Harmonium, with how undeniably useful it is how could you possibly justify restricting it for yourself?

I guarantee you that the governor's bodyguards would have leecher primer cubes, do you think other people, particularly whoever ends up in control of Wayne's fortune at that time wouldn't want that for themselves?

Do you think Kelsier would let the Elendel government monopolize that power, when he wants some for himself and hates the Elendel government?

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

We don't know any of that. Most likely she made use of Autonomy's investiture already present in the system without directly investing it more, just like she did in the First of the Sun system and Patji. This doesn't have to manifest any physical investiture as that's only a little amount of it. She can if she wants, but she has control over it in this case. I think there were some clues that the Set brough investiture from other world, but can't find it in TLM.

  Reveal hidden contents

ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

 

Harmony said that she directly invested the system.

When she comes back do you think she's going to stay at the same level of involvement, especially considering that it is Trellium focused?

Autonomy has already claimed that world as her own, she's not afraid of Investing there.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

You're wrong. People in power know. Kelsier wants to share Allomancy, not give everyone nukes... He didn't even share his information about Set's actions with Harmony or the government, which could prevent this whole situation from ever happening. Kel inaction caused the most amount of harm. Kel and Ghostbloods don't share information with people outside their organization. 

1. Kel hates the Elendel government, he would never share anything with them.

2. He thought he had a lot more time to deal with the Set, so he had no reason to rush.

3. What says Kelsier doesn't want everyone to have nukes? The man is one step away from an anarchist.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Military secrets... It's about national security. It already works like that.

If that's how it works in your country remind me to never go there.

They can resist, they can claim national security all they want, but if the elected officials want any piece of information they so desire, they can get it.

Considering how many people there are represented, especially considering how curious the outer cities would be about such a weapon they will demand to know how it works, and where it's so simple they would all be able to understand it.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's not how Kel acts, It's the very opposite. He won't share anything. And we know it!

So if he got access to Lerasium tomorrow he wouldn't share it, despite that being the direct achievement of his stated goal?

Yes he would, he is more than comfortable sharing something if it gets him what he wants.

8 hours ago, therunner said:

I have one possible counter-argument I have not seen above:

Harmonium will stop being a thing in Era 3 (or prior), as a result of Harmony shifting to Discord.
Now, it would have to broadly keep most of its characteristics or have them changed in such a way that technology it allows is still feasible, for example instead of 'harmonizing' with nearby Invested power to 'discordize' and instead output opposite power: e.g. steelpushing stored into Discordium-primer cube would become Ironpull, Storing into metalmind would become tapping that metalmind (if that is how planes function).

Interestingly, this would allow non-Twinborn to access more than one power, provided they had access to such cubes (and that they exist )

Importantly, because of shift from unstable Harmony to stable Discord, 'Discordium' would no longer react the same way with Trellium.

Though extant Harmonium would continue to exist, so it would become guarded resource.

I don't know about that Discord doesn't sound very stable.

Though I guess Harmony does, so that shows how far that gets us.

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Everything is investiture, but not only that the investiture in shardmetals is inactive, not to mention how powerful such a device would have to be.

Good thing that Awakening can detect inactive investiture. Just build a big radar station in the middle of the city, problem solved. In Era 4 of course.

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But if one house wanted to sell to another, or even to the skaa if they were so inclined he would have no way of knowing, or any ability to control it.

Then they would be stupid as this Atium would be used against them. But this is off-topic. Rashek only needed to control the amount of Atium on the market.

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That wasn't the question, if you had a government monopolization of all aircraft, and required the level of control that you are suggesting. How on earth are crop dusters supposed to operate?

By getting their pilot license... What the heck are you talking about.?

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Is some Harmonium Control Unit™ supposed to come by every day and sell them the requisite amount of Harmonium and then collect anything that wasn't used?

Where did you get "every day" from? What is this? Are we talking about the same thing?

You're getting a license for acquiring a limited number of Harmonium devices, like 3 primer cubes, all of them have a trackable serial number. You go to a specific shop licensed to sell Harmonium devices, they sell you 3 devices and note this on your license. You go home, the police stop you on your way for routine control, they ask if you have a Harmonium device with you, you say yes, you give them license, they check it and check the state of devices and their serial numbers. You go home. You use them. One of them breaks down or is depleted. You go back to the shop, give it to repair, they send it to the manufacturer who fixes it and sends it back. A routine federal control comes once in a while and checks the state of your devices, checks how they are managed, stored, used, maintained, or if somebody tried to open them and access Harmonium. Everything is fine, You go on with your life just fine. 

Or if you want to limit it even more, only renting Harmonium devices. You need a license to rent a device, you need to state the purpose and the time period, they check you and give you them and after the time passes you have to give it back. Of course they are subjected to random controls.

Or better - ban all use of Harmonium, allowing only federal officers to use it. Just like you don't give battleships to random citizens, you don't give airships to random Scadrians. Nobody said that the Malwish tech had to be accessible to everybody.

Actually we've never seen a Primer Cube being depleted. Investiture comes from Mistborn, not from Harmonium.

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No it doesn't, there is a huge difference between international trade and intranational trade. Not to mention most Malwish hate the basin to start with, seeing them as barbarians.

It does. The Basin can't get Harmonium from Malwish. The Malwish government controls it. End of the story.

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Considering that Alak can just give Marasi primer cubes despite him having an only ceremonial position, they must be pretty common.

He was part of the airship crew on a mission. 

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Considering they can waste huge amounts of it just to build bombs they have a lot of it.

Again, Hunter's mission. 

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Considering that the Admiral in TLM thought that they had enough Ettmetal that they could destroy Elendel in one bombing run, and didn't seem at all worried about the cost, they have a lot.

Literally a military officer.

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So with that much Harmonium, with how undeniably useful it is how could you possibly justify restricting it for yourself?

How do Malwish use it? There are almost no Metalborn, they don't need Primar Cubes. They use it for ships - which are owned by unknown entities. We don't know what Malwish politics looks like at all. For all we know every ship could be owned by the government. We know nothing. 

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I guarantee you that the governor's bodyguards would have leecher primer cubes, do you think other people, particularly whoever ends up in control of Wayne's fortune at that time wouldn't want that for themselves?

That's a pity that Malwish stopped selling cubes to the Basin, proving my point. 

We know who got Wayne's fortune - an overworked single mother. Do you think she will start walking around with 10 bodyguards, or simply appoint people to take care of this business?

24 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Do you think Kelsier would let the Elendel government monopolize that power, when he wants some for himself and hates the Elendel government?

For now Ghostbloods are too small to do anything about it, which Kel admitted. And he knows how dangerous the power in a wrong hands can be. Set literally proved it.

25 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Harmony said that she directly invested the system.

When she comes back do you think she's going to stay at the same level of involvement, especially considering that it is Trellium focused?

Autonomy has already claimed that world as her own, she's not afraid of Investing there.

She retreated, giving back the world to Harmony. If Trellium was so easily accessible, how is that possible that only Set members had access to it? Why not random people in the streets? Do you really think that Trellium will just lay on the ground for random people to pick it up, considering how Atium was made in era 1?

Even Brandon in the WoB used the term "investing" for the lack of better words. 

27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

1. Kel hates the Elendel government, he would never share anything with them.

2. He thought he had a lot more time to deal with the Set, so he had no reason to rush.

3. What says Kelsier doesn't want everyone to have nukes? The man is one step away from an anarchist.

That "anarchist" made long preparations to leave a government ready to take control after TLR death. Good thing that neither point 1 or 2 prove him wrong. And Ghostbloods still don't share anything with non-members. They don't trust random people, they won't give information like that to the public.

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If that's how it works in your country remind me to never go there.

They can resist, they can claim national security all they want, but if the elected officials want any piece of information they so desire, they can get it.

Considering how many people there are represented, especially considering how curious the outer cities would be about such a weapon they will demand to know how it works, and where it's so simple they would all be able to understand it.

I'm talking about the US. Congressmen can gain access to sensitive information but they can't disclose them to the public. That's why I said "people in power will know". And just because they can access information doesn't mean they want to or that they will understand it. The outer cities for now seem to be a bit separated from the government.

38 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So if he got access to Lerasium tomorrow he wouldn't share it, despite that being the direct achievement of his stated goal?

Lerasium isn't information. And who knows if his "democratization" of power doesn't include only Ghostbloods members. This is a real possibility. You don't see him throwing jars of Dor to random people.

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes he would, he is more than comfortable sharing something if it gets him what he wants.

Random people having nukes in their pockets isn't what he wants. He wants to protect Scadrial and this is directly against this policy. You don't give WMD to random poeple.

[Frustration]

@alder24 I have come to the conclusion that nothing I say will convince you, and nothing you say will convince me. And as this is not the conversation I wanted to have I have decided to adjust the topic of conversation to where accessibility is not up for debate.

SA

Spoiler

Stormlight/anti-stormlight weapons are available to everyone, how will that impact society?

 

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

@alder24 I have come to the conclusion that nothing I say will convince you, and nothing you say will convince me. And as this is not the conversation I wanted to have I have decided to adjust the topic of conversation to where accessibility is not up for debate.

Right. I simply wanted to point out that the government can restrict access to the tech so people simply won't throw nukes in every bar fight as you implied in the first post. In my opinion you've vastly overestimated accessibility of both Harmonium and Trellium. This doesn't mean that there wouldn't be any criminal organizations ready to put money into it and make one, but it won't be that common.

And I've found this quote, so I'm throwing it here to end this.TLM ch 4

Quote

The grenade used ettmetal, which was tightly regulated by the Malwish, so she didn’t blame the gangsters for not knowing what to do; even among the Malwish these were rare