Frustration Posted August 10, 2023 Author Posted August 10, 2023 44 minutes ago, therunner said: No. Other explosives don't cause radiation sickness, anti-matter bombs do. Other explosives don't leave radioactive fallout (though antimatter bombs are better than regular nukes). Do anti-investiture weapons though? I've been working under the assumption that they don't. 44 minutes ago, therunner said: Why only 10 days? That's when Dalinar's peace agreement comes into effect. 44 minutes ago, therunner said: So your protection is that if someone tries to kill you, you kill yourself first? That's...not the best idea. And them, hopefully just them, but them as well, which should serve as enough of a deterrent. 24 minutes ago, alder24 said: Fire creates a high pressure area, storms are a low pressure area, plants won't retract like before a Highstorm. And they can still burn even when hidden. They retract at footsteps, the noise alone would drive them to retract. How would they catch fire when underground? Perhaps if they were completely surrounded, but how do the edges of the fire grow? 24 minutes ago, alder24 said: There were 10000 firework related injuries in 2022 in the US. "Fireworks started an estimated 12,264 fires in 2021, including 2,082 structure fires, 316 vehicle fires, and 9,866 outside and other fires. These fires caused 29 civilian injuries and $59 million in direct property damage." Really responsible. Give them nukes, you have 10000 cities gone. "For fun" Why would you use a KT level bomb for a light show? 25 minutes ago, alder24 said: Not to mention the US is famously "good" at preventing a criminal use of firearms. Give those people nukes instead and there is no US anymore, just a hole on the map. Aren't you the one that said not to bring that up? Regardless the US would be fine. The government and large cities might not, but the land and several million people would 100% still be there. 27 minutes ago, alder24 said: They have that too, and more than you. They strike first, you're dead, and nobody will avenge you. They can't strike first they need a tax base in order to pay their soldiers. They need me, I don't need them.
alder24 Posted August 10, 2023 Posted August 10, 2023 3 minutes ago, Frustration said: How would they catch fire when underground? Perhaps if they were completely surrounded, but how do the edges of the fire grow? Self-ignition, sparks, burning debris... They aren't underground, they are in cracks in the ground. 5 minutes ago, Frustration said: Regardless the US would be fine. The government and large cities might not, but the land and several million people would 100% still be there. So that's no US? Without a government there is no country. And "several million" out of 330 mil isn't that much. That's like 99% of casualties. 7 minutes ago, Frustration said: They can't strike first they need a tax base in order to pay their soldiers. They need me, I don't need them. And you will say no and they will bomb you before you could react. Or first imprison you before you could reach the nuke, steal everything and they blow you up. There are hundreds of ways to do that.
Frustration Posted August 10, 2023 Author Posted August 10, 2023 15 minutes ago, alder24 said: Self-ignition, sparks, burning debris... They aren't underground, they are in cracks in the ground. Tiny cracks holes small enough the blades are all that come out. 15 minutes ago, alder24 said: So that's no US? Without a government there is no country. There is a people, and a region 15 minutes ago, alder24 said: And "several million" out of 330 mil isn't that much. That's like 99% of casualties. Do you think I did an accurate analysis in 20 seconds? 15 minutes ago, alder24 said: And you will say no and they will bomb you before you could react. That kills them too. 15 minutes ago, alder24 said: Or first imprison you before you could reach the nuke, steal everything and they blow you up. The one in my pocket?
alder24 Posted August 10, 2023 Posted August 10, 2023 16 minutes ago, Frustration said: Tiny cracks holes small enough the blades are all that come out. A spark is smaller. 16 minutes ago, Frustration said: There is a people, and a region But no government. Land is now radioactive wasteland. That's not a country, that ruins of a country. 17 minutes ago, Frustration said: Do you think I did an accurate analysis in 20 seconds? Yes. I'm disappointed in you now 17 minutes ago, Frustration said: That kills them too. Did I mention crazy people and extremists? 18 minutes ago, Frustration said: The one in my pocket? An arrow or spear or sword kills you faster than you can reach in your pocket, faster than you can transfer light from one gem to another. You would be dead before you would be able to do something.
Frustration Posted August 10, 2023 Author Posted August 10, 2023 32 minutes ago, alder24 said: A spark is smaller. It would have to accurately land, possible I suppose, but unlikely. 32 minutes ago, alder24 said: Land is now radioactive wasteland. Some of it, a vast minority including almost none of the farmland. There's almost 3.8 Million square miles, you'd have to be going out of your way to irradiate it. 32 minutes ago, alder24 said: Yes. I'm disappointed in you now I apologize I will do better in the future. 32 minutes ago, alder24 said: Did I mention crazy people and extremists? Well then they are dead and can't hurt anyone else. 32 minutes ago, alder24 said: An arrow or spear or sword kills you faster than you can reach in your pocket, faster than you can transfer light from one gem to another. You would be dead before you would be able to do something. Reach in, pull the divider keeping the gems separate out: Throw device. Is it possible I die first? Yes without question. Would they be willing to risk it?
alder24 Posted August 10, 2023 Posted August 10, 2023 13 minutes ago, Frustration said: Some of it, a vast minority including almost none of the farmland. There's almost 3.8 Million square miles, you'd have to be going out of your way to irradiate it. Wind spreads radiation...
Frustration Posted August 10, 2023 Author Posted August 10, 2023 12 minutes ago, alder24 said: Wind spreads radiation... We've detonated a crap ton of bombs in New Mexico and Alaska, if wind spread was that much of an issue we'd already be dealing with the side effects. And again, do anti-investiture weapons emit radiation?
alder24 Posted August 10, 2023 Posted August 10, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Frustration said: We've detonated a crap ton of bombs in New Mexico and Alaska, if wind spread was that much of an issue we'd already be dealing with the side effects. Ever heard of the Lucky Dragon? And yes, it was an issue. There were studies about radiation contamination across the US caused by testing bombs and there was a noticeable effect, and even link to thyroid cancer (with some receiving doses of up to 4 Gy) - up to 28000 people claimed compensation from the state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_Test_Site#Cancer_and_test_site and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downwinders Important parts: Quote The National Cancer Institute report estimates that doses received in these years (1952-57) are estimated to be large enough to produce 10,000 to 75,000 additional cases of thyroid cancer in the U.S. [...] 2006 report, published by the Scientific Research Society, estimates that about 22,000 additional radiation-related cancers and 2,000 additional deaths from radiation-related leukemia are expected to occur in the United States because of external and internal radiation from both NTS and global fallout. A 2010 report evaluating data on thyroid cancer incidence from 1973 to 2004 also supports a relationship between exposure from fallout and increased thyroid cancer incidence. But this is about testing, we're not talking about testing in remote localisation anymore, we're talking about real bombs detonated near population centers. Radiation fallout is real and causes a significant death toll, ARP and increases cancer risk. Depending on the wind it can spread over a very large area. With surface blast (which we are talking about here) radiation is the main killer and can cause hundreds of thousands of casualties. Quote And again, do anti-investiture weapons emit radiation? Yes, electron-antielectron annihilation produces gamma rays, proton-antiproton produces whole variety of particles, including electrons or even fast neutrons - which is still radiation. That's a short answer which I do understand, but reality is far more complicated, which I don't understand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilation Edited August 10, 2023 by alder24
Frustration Posted August 10, 2023 Author Posted August 10, 2023 29 minutes ago, alder24 said: Yes, electron-antielectron annihilation produces gamma rays, proton-antiproton produces whole variety of particles, including electrons or even fast neutrons - which is still radiation. That's a short answer which I do understand, but reality is far more complicated, which I don't understand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilation That's matter/antimatter. Invested matter doesn't change states based on heat, I see no reason it would produce radiation.
alder24 Posted August 10, 2023 Posted August 10, 2023 49 minutes ago, Frustration said: That's matter/antimatter. Invested matter doesn't change states based on heat, I see no reason it would produce radiation. It's the best comparison we have and it releases energy from the electromagnetic spectrum. Gamma rays are part of it. There will be radiation. What other "energy'' do you want it to release? By definition it will produce radiation (light is radiation) and based on annihilation of matter-antimatter it will produce ionizing radiation too. Too much energy is being released from Axi. And invested matter does change states based on heat - Harmonium clearly shows signs of it. It became more pliable, soft and stretchable, clearly dividing itself into two parts, and stopped reacting to air as violently. I see no reason to believe that a god metal couldn't be melted if provided enough heat. It's still a physical matter, behaves like that and has properties like every other physical matter has. It even glows when heated. Saying that Harmonium can't melt isn't based on facts - they only heated it to around 3000 "degrees", tungsten melts at 3422°C (6191.6°F). They simply might not have the equipment needed to melt it.
Frustration Posted August 10, 2023 Author Posted August 10, 2023 38 minutes ago, alder24 said: It's the best comparison we have and it releases energy from the electromagnetic spectrum. Gamma rays are part of it. There will be radiation. What other "energy'' do you want it to release? By definition it will produce radiation (light is radiation) and based on annihilation of matter-antimatter it will produce ionizing radiation too. Too much energy is being released from Axi. And invested matter does change states based on heat - Harmonium clearly shows signs of it. It became more pliable, soft and stretchable, clearly dividing itself into two parts, and stopped reacting to air as violently. I see no reason to believe that a god metal couldn't be melted if provided enough heat. It's still a physical matter, behaves like that and has properties like every other physical matter has. It even glows when heated. Saying that Harmonium can't melt isn't based on facts - they only heated it to around 3000 "degrees", tungsten melts at 3422°C (6191.6°F). They simply might not have the equipment needed to melt it. The mists are vaporous forms of shardmetals as Wax himself points out. If they don't even reach liquid state at 3,000 degrees what would they be as a gas?
alder24 Posted August 10, 2023 Posted August 10, 2023 12 minutes ago, Frustration said: The mists are vaporous forms of shardmetals as Wax himself points out. So? This proves my point as we clearly know god metals have both liquid and gaseous form. We only need to change it from one to the other - for this you just need energy. And because matter=energy=investiture it doesn't matter that god metals are pure investiture, with sufficient energy you will break it down and liquify it. 12 minutes ago, Frustration said: If they don't even reach liquid state at 3,000 degrees what would they be as a gas? Tungsten boils at 5555 degrees C. It happens.
therunner he/him Posted August 10, 2023 Posted August 10, 2023 6 hours ago, Frustration said: Do anti-investiture weapons though? I've been working under the assumption that they don't. 2 hours ago, Frustration said: That's matter/antimatter. Invested matter doesn't change states based on heat, I see no reason it would produce radiation. It should produce radiation, simply because of matter = energy = Investiture equivalency. We already know that Investiture can be converted to electromagnetic radiation (Lightweaving) so there is a pathway from Investiture to EM. Hence any annihilation of Investiture will by necessity produce radiation. Since Investiture can also create arbitrary matter (Soulcasting), annihilation will also produce large variatey of particles (i.e. alpha radiation, beta radiation, and quite possibly large variety of unstable isotopes). It is possible Brandon will handwave these issues, but this is what should happen. 6 hours ago, Frustration said: That's when Dalinar's peace agreement comes into effect. So...then no one actually has nukes? That time limit renders your entire premise invalid. Quote And them, hopefully just them, but them as well, which should serve as enough of a deterrent. You do realize they can send someone who does not know what they are delivering? Or just use catapult or something like that to lob it there? This is not a gunfight. Quote They can't strike first they need a tax base in order to pay their soldiers. They need me, I don't need them. Striking at rebellious people is rulership 101. If you don't do what they want, they will wipe you out. They don't need you, they need people in general, and any single person is largely replaceable.
Frustration Posted August 10, 2023 Author Posted August 10, 2023 58 minutes ago, alder24 said: So? This proves my point as we clearly know god metals have both liquid and gaseous form. We only need to change it from one to the other - for this you just need energy. And because matter=energy=investiture it doesn't matter that god metals are pure investiture, with sufficient energy you will break it down and liquify it. And if they don't change on energy? This isn't normal matter it's not held together the same way other metals are. 59 minutes ago, alder24 said: Tungsten boils at 5555 degrees C. It happens. So how was Vin not burned to death? 17 minutes ago, therunner said: So...then no one actually has nukes? That time limit renders your entire premise invalid. Time limit is not on the technology, only on any Fused led war attempts. 17 minutes ago, therunner said: You do realize they can send someone who does not know what they are delivering? Or just use catapult or something like that to lob it there? Do you know how long it takes to aim a catapult? I wouldn't be anywhere near where they are pointing the thing by the time they got it ready. 19 minutes ago, therunner said: Striking at rebellious people is rulership 101. If you don't do what they want, they will wipe you out. They don't need you, they need people in general, and any single person is largely replaceable. But this is the same situation that has to play out with every person, I'm not the only one with these, everyone has these weapons.
alder24 Posted August 10, 2023 Posted August 10, 2023 5 minutes ago, Frustration said: And if they don't change on energy? This isn't normal matter it's not held together the same way other metals are. They will. Our laws of physics still apply. Enough investiture in one place will create a black hole - enough energy put into a god metal will break it down to liquid, even if investiture resists it. Investiture is energy, you just need to put more energy into it than it has. It's simple. 6 minutes ago, Frustration said: So how was Vin not burned to death? Because that wasn't tungsten. 7 minutes ago, Frustration said: Time limit is not on the technology, only on any Fused led war attempts. Why? Will they disappear or something? It’s the time limit on Odium led war, not Fused, they will stay. He can't take them back, did you forget?
therunner he/him Posted August 11, 2023 Posted August 11, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, Frustration said: And if they don't change on energy? This isn't normal matter it's not held together the same way other metals are. It does, just see the result of the explosion in RoW. Stuff is burned, hence heat was released, hence em radiation was released. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: Time limit is not on the technology, only on any Fused led war attempts. And how will quickly will they manage to replicate it? They have some notes from Raboniel, but Raboniel herself died. Other Fused don't seem to be quite as scientifically minded. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: Do you know how long it takes to aim a catapult? You don't need to be particularly accurate when firing a nuke at a village. Not to mention, you can do other things than catapult, that was just a random example. You could e.g. send a horse ride into the village, sneak it there, etc. Point is, you cannot really defend yourself against this, not without massive resources. So the life won't go on as usual as you claimed. Quote I wouldn't be anywhere near where they are pointing the thing by the time they got it ready. You don't sleep? Also, driving you away is the better outcome, keep the infrastructure but rebels are gone. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: But this is the same situation that has to play out with every person, I'm not the only one with these, everyone has these weapons. Most people won't rebel, most won't even build the nukes (like in real world most people don't build chemical weapons). You won't live alone, because you would not survive. Hence you need to strike limited amount of targets. The resource disparity, warlord has far more than you. Edited August 11, 2023 by therunner 1
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