The Ten Fools

[Firesong she/her]

We know that each Fool is essentially an inverse of one of the Heralds

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Brandon Sanderson

That I haven't named yet? Those are in the notes, I have to look those things up. I don't know. We're gonna do a ten fools painting for the next one, maybe. We were gonna do it for this one. I'm not sure who my favorite is. I'd have to sit and think about it, perhaps more time than we have right now. It's going to depend on Isaac's sketches of them and things like that. Maybe, uh, Jezrien's fool. Probably Jezrien's fool.

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Brandon Sanderson

Yes, ten is a number of mythological import in the world. The Ten Fools are, essentially, the opposites of the Ten Heralds--who each represented an ideal. (Those ideals were later adopted by the orders of Knights Radiant, so yes, there is a connection--but there's a step between them.)

So, it makes me wonder which of the fools we know are the inverse of what Herald. 

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She’d begun to imagine an infinite spiral, like with old Dilid, one of the ten fools. He ran up a hillside toward the Tranquiline Halls with sand sliding beneath his feet—running for eternity, but never making progress. 

[He] felt like one of the ten fools. Actually, he felt like all of them. Ten times an idiot. But most specifically Eshu, who spoke of things he did not understand in front of those who did

 

Kal felt like one of the ten fools—specifically Cabine, who acted like a child though he was adult.

I think Cabine is likely Taln, who is Dependable, but it could also be Jezrien, who is a Protecting and Leading, which are very non-childlike attributes. 

Eshu is either Paliah or Battar. Knowledge and Wisdom respectively. 

Not sure about Dilid. 

We have ideas of some others, but not names

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.. I've made a life out of traveling to difficult places to trade, and even my babsk said that trying to trade with the Horneaters was akin to the seventh fool.

And, mark Kaladin as the fourth fool if Adolin didn't immediately pull out a gift for the pair.

Don't play the sixth fool, Father," Kaladin said. "You can’t let them take you after this. 

I am mostly leaving this post as I want to work with others to try and work out what fool is associated with each Herald. 

[Aeoryi she/her]

57 minutes ago, Firesong said:

We know that each Fool is essentially an inverse of one of the Heralds

So, it makes me wonder which of the fools we know are the inverse of what Herald. 

I think Cabine is likely Taln, who is Dependable, but it could also be Jezrien, who is a Protecting and Leading, which are very non-childlike attributes. 

Eshu is either Paliah or Battar. Knowledge and Wisdom respectively. 

Not sure about Dilid. 

We have ideas of some others, but not names

I am mostly leaving this post as I want to work with others to try and work out what fool is associated with each Herald. 

Do the ten fools - like do they actually exist as a person on roshar?

[in Truth,watcher of tv he/him]

3 hours ago, Firesong said:

I think Cabine is likely Taln, who is Dependable, but it could also be Jezrien, who is a Protecting and Leading, which are very non-childlike attributes. 

Eshu is either Paliah or Battar. Knowledge and Wisdom respectively. 

Not sure about Dilid. 

I reckon Cabine correspond to Jezrien, since protecting and leading are about responsibility and childishness is about being irresponsible.
Eshu I would say is definitely Pailiah, since it’s talking about information rather than thoughts or viewpoints
I would guess Dilid matches Battar in being about pursuing something you know is pointless or I could see it relating to Taln.

 

Those Vorins love a well-structured table, I’d guess the numbered Fools match up directly to the numbers of the Heralds. I can’t remember the context behind those quotes but; 4 would match Vedel and might be about forgetfulness or apathy, 6 would match Shalash and could be about deluding yourself, 7 matches Battar and -well- the opposite of wisdom is foolishness but this could be about futility and so be Dilid.

Off the top of my head, a few more Fools might be:

Nale: disrespectful of rules or authority

Chanarach: cowardice or recklessness

Kalak: indecisiveness

Ishar: might be faithlessness or heresy

Edited July 23, 2023 by in Truth,watcher of tv

[Aeoryi she/her]

12 minutes ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

I reckon Cabine correspond to Jezrien, since protecting and leading are about responsibility and childishness is about being irresponsible.
Eshu I would say is definitely Pailiah, since it’s talking about information rather than thoughts or viewpoints
I would guess Dilid matches Battar in being about pursuing something you know is pointless or I could see it relating to Taln.

 

Those Vorins love a well-structured table, I’d guess the numbered Fools match up directly to the numbers of the Heralds. I can’t remember the context behind those quotes but; 4 would match Vedel and might be about forgetfulness or apathy, 6 would match Shalash and could be about deluding yourself, 7 matches Battar and -well- the opposite of wisdom is foolishness but this could be about futility and so be Dilid.

Off the top of my head, a few more Fools might be:

Nale: disrespectful of rules or authority

Chanarach: cowardice or recklessness

Kalak: indecisiveness

Ishar: might be faithlessness or heresy

Chanaranach could be disobedience, since obidience is a Chanaranach aspect.

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Firesong said:

So, it makes me wonder which of the fools we know are the inverse of what Herald. 

Quote

She’d begun to imagine an infinite spiral, like with old Dilid, one of the ten fools. He ran up a hillside toward the Tranquiline Halls with sand sliding beneath his feet—running for eternity, but never making progress. 

[He] felt like one of the ten fools. Actually, he felt like all of them. Ten times an idiot. But most specifically Eshu, who spoke of things he did not understand in front of those who did

 

Kal felt like one of the ten fools—specifically Cabine, who acted like a child though he was adult.

I think Cabine is likely Taln, who is Dependable, but it could also be Jezrien, who is a Protecting and Leading, which are very non-childlike attributes. 

Eshu is either Paliah or Battar. Knowledge and Wisdom respectively. 

Not sure about Dilid. 

Dilid is basically Sisyphus - doing something with no real progress. Ash fits this, as she tries to destroy all images of herself and make people stop worshiping her - but this clearly doesn't work. 

No idea who's Eshu, name similar to Ishi - and it might be Ishar, claiming to be Almighty and Adonalsium reborn, Heralds of Heralds, bearing the Oathpact alone - and sending Nale to kill all Radiants to prevent a new Desolation. And always saying the opposite of what's true - Dalinar being already the Champion of Odium and him being the Champion of Honor (close to the truth but not real truth yet or anymore), Dalinar corrupting spren or making false Radiants etc. He's talking like he knows everything to those that know real truth. RoW ch 111:

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"Your lies cannot fool me. I am Tezim, first man, aspect of the Almighty. I alone prepare for the end of the worlds. I should not have ignored your previous messages to me; I see now what you are. What you must be. Only a servant of my enemy could have captured Urithiru, my holy seat.”
“Ishar,” Dalinar said softly. “I know what you are.”
“I am that man no longer,” Ishar said. “I am Herald of Heralds, sole bearer of the Oathpact. I am more than I once was and I will become yet more. I shall absorb your power, Odium, and become a god among gods, Adonalsium reborn.”

[...]

“I prepared myself for your lies, champion of Odium,” Ishar said. “I had not realized they would be so … reasonable. Yet you have already done too much to prove who you are. Taking my holy city. Summoning your evil storm. Sending your minions to torment my people. You have corrupted the spren to your side, so you can have false Radiants, but I have discovered your secrets.” He held his hands as if to summon a Blade. “The time for the end is upon us. Let us begin the battle.”

[...]

“I see,” Ishar said softly. He met Dalinar’s eyes. “So. The enemy has corrupted the Stormfather too. I had hoped…”

[...]

“… to defeat you, champion of Odium! We will clash again, and I am ready for your wiles this time! You will not defeat me when next we meet, though you bear a corrupted Honorblade that bleeds black smoke! I am ALMIGHTY.”

Kalak acted like a child during Adolin's trial, fits more to Cabine than Jez who's just drunk. RoW ch 87

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They waited for Kelek to call the next witness. The High Judge, instead, spent a good twenty minutes writing in his notebook. [...] Adolin just hoped the notes he was taking related to the testimony. He half expected that the Herald was solving word puzzles like the ones Jasnah enjoyed.
Eventually, the Herald dug something out of his pocket—fruit it seemed, though it was bright green and it crunched when Kelek took a bite.

[...]

Kelek shrank down in his seat, looking panicked as he put his hands to his ears. He let out a low whine, pathetic and piteous, and began to shake

 

8 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

Do the ten fools - like do they actually exist as a person on roshar?

No, but there is a relationship between Heralds and ten fools:

Spoiler

celestialwolf157

By the way, Kaladin's comment on Taln and Shalash's mental health makes me wonder: Are the Ten Fools based on the Heralds after they broke the Oathpact? Having 9 immortal, mentally ill people on Roshar for millenia seems like it'd have spawned some stories that could have eventually become stories of the Ten Fools. Taln wouldn't be included in this, but with Vorinism and the number 10, I imagine they'd have created something to oppose his virtues.

Also, I can't remember if this is confirmed or not, but on the topic of the Heralds' mental health, is it at all supernatural? Taln seemed to recover somewhat when Dalinar summoned the perpendicularity at the end of Oathbringer. So, is it just severe PTSD, or something supernatural is involved?

Brandon Sanderson

I've tried to make it clear in talking about the books that I separate what has happened to the Heralds and normal mental health. What they're suffering from is in large part supernatural--and has to do with the way souls (or Cognitive Shadows) work in the cosmere. So you are correct. This doesn't mean that some normal treatments wouldn't help them, but their core problem has a huge supernatural component.

And yes, there IS a relationship between the ten fools and the Heralds, though people on Roshar wouldn't be able to point it out.

mastapsi

Is the Heralds' madness related to and/or the same thing as the Fused's madness? The Stormfather mentions that each time one of the Fused is reborn, their mind is further damaged. Is it the same with the Herald? To many rebirths, possibly compounded by the fact that they not only often died each Desolation, but were tortured until the next one?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, these two things are related. (There are some hints in Rhythm of War at how Hoid has avoided a similar fate.)

Note that the torture--and the many rebirths--are a big part of this. But their age is also a factor.

3DLightweaver

Does this mean that a certain Cognitive Shadow from the Mistborn series is fated to go insane?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on a lot of factors. But the longer a Cognitive Shadow exists, the more likely these problems are.

dce42

Would this affect the Returned as well? What about those with a lot (like 8,000) breaths since they are not cognitive shadows.

Brandon Sanderson

Returned are Cognitive Shadows. In the Cosmere, there is no way to bring someone back to life, other than normal medical resuscitation, without using a Cognitive Shadow.

Stromeng

What about Dalinar? I thought he has had textbook PTSD, but the screams he continued to hear turned out to be magic.

Brandon Sanderson

Dalinar has a whole host of issues, not easily defined by a single definition. Assume, though, that his mental state is a normal response to, in part, supernatural occurrences.

The different for the Heralds is that they have conditions which could only truly exist in the cosmere, even if some of the manifestations and symptoms are similar to what could happen on Earth.

Stonewalker16

So is that implying that Hoid is a Cognitive Shadow, or is that just an effect of being really really old? Also does Vasher know about/how to avoid these effects? Probably an RAFO, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Come back to that question in about a month or so.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Sept. 8, 2020)

 

[Firesong she/her]

6 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

Those Vorins love a well-structured table, I’d guess the numbered Fools match up directly to the numbers of the Heralds. I can’t remember the context behind those quotes but; 4 would match Vedel and might be about forgetfulness or apathy, 6 would match Shalash and could be about deluding yourself, 7 matches Battar and -well- the opposite of wisdom is foolishness but this could be about futility and so be Dilid.

I actually should have already thought of that, yeah. It is kind of obvious in retrospect. 

56 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Dilid is basically Sisyphus - doing something with no real progress. Ash fits this, as she tries to destroy all images of herself and make people stop worshiping her - but this clearly doesn't work. 

No idea who's Eshu, name similar to Ishi - and it might be Ishar, claiming to be Almighty and Adonalsium reborn, Heralds of Heralds, bearing the Oathpact alone - and sending Nale to kill all Radiants to prevent a new Desolation. And always saying the opposite of what's true - Dalinar being already the Champion of Odium and him being the Champion of Honor (close to the truth but not real truth yet or anymore), Dalinar corrupting spren or making false Radiants etc. He's talking like he knows everything to those that know real truth. RoW ch 111:

Kalak acted like a child during Adolin's trial, fits more to Cabine than Jez who's just drunk. RoW ch 87

 

True, this does work out.

Dilid being the Sixth Fool and being Shalash makes sense, as Kaladin invoked the Sixth Fool concerning Lirin just, wanting to do nothing and hope things got better. Which is pretty Sisyphean. Dilid, Shalash, and Lirin also all share attributes of deluding themselves. 

Quote

 

And, mark Kaladin as the fourth fool if Adolin didn't immediately pull out a gift for the pair.

So this would be Vedelev. Though I am not exactly sure what that would mean. She is loving, so maybe it means expecting the worst of others (not properly loving them)? We don't really see how her inverted attributes manifest, given she is one of the few Heralds we have seen literally nothing of.

We have seen Jezrien, Nale, Chanarach (according to very likely theories), Shalash, Battar, Kalak, Taln, and Ishar. We haven't seen Paliah or Vedel. I wonder if that is due to something special happening with them, if we already saw them but haven't been told (I know the Paliah WoB, I just highly doubt it is still true as Brandon has been giving only RAFOs, he said a female Herald has been influencing Taravangian, and that was Battar, and there is no actual record of the Paliah WoB), or if he simply hasn't found a place to fit them in yet. 

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It's nothing against you and your people. But I’ve made a life out of traveling to difficult places to trade, and even my babsk said that trying to trade with the Horneaters was akin to the seventh fool. 

This would be Battar. Not sure exactly how this would connect, maybe calling it unwise? We don't really see her inverted attributes manifest, unless her trusting Taravangian enough to work with him for so long as an inversion of her being wise and careful, as she fell for a trick and inadvertently helped him become Odium. 

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Firesong said:

We haven't seen Paliah or Vedel

I believe Vedel is Liss, the assassin Jasnah met in WoR prologue. From healing to killing.

[Firesong she/her]

56 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I believe Vedel is Liss, the assassin Jasnah met in WoR prologue. From healing to killing.

Hmmm... perhaps. But he also said we haven't seen Vedel during an Oathbringer sigining. But he could mean we haven't knowingly seen her. 

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Questioner

Are these old Radiants?

Brandon Sanderson

Those are Heralds. That's Ash, who you'll see that the very end of this [Oathbringer]. That's Jezrien who's also near the end. You haven't met her [Vedel] yet. Ishar, you have heard about. And it's identified in this book who he is. But those are artist interpretations of them, in-world. They're like the Sistine Chapel versions of the Heralds. They might not look exactly like that, but that is an in-world interpretation of them by an artist.

It was a FanX thing, not an Oathbringer signing. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Firesong

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Hmmm... perhaps. But he also said we haven't seen Vedel during an Oathbringer sigining. But he could mean we haven't knowingly seen her. 

He's hiding it from us! Just listen to that evil laugh:

Spoiler

Steeldancer

And then the final question. At the beginning of Words of Radiance, the assassin Liss, is she Chana?

Brandon Sanderson

*Evil laugh* I will RAFO that. Sorry!

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

He even RAFO'd if we've seen Liss anywhere else:

Spoiler

Sparkle Hearts

The assassin Liss. Have we seen her anywhere else?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. Sorry.

WorldCon 76 (Aug. 18, 2018)

And that all Heralds were either seen or mentioned before OB:

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

Have we seen all of the Heralds?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned all of them, and you've seen a number of them, such as Shalash running around.

Footnote: From zas678: I'm pretty sure he mentioned something that made it clear that it was [Baxil's] Mistress, or the person cutting off the faces.
Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

 

[Firesong she/her]

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

He's hiding it from us! Just listen to that evil laugh:

  Hide contents

Steeldancer

And then the final question. At the beginning of Words of Radiance, the assassin Liss, is she Chana?

Brandon Sanderson

*Evil laugh* I will RAFO that. Sorry!

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

He even RAFO'd if we've seen Liss anywhere else:

  Hide contents

Sparkle Hearts

The assassin Liss. Have we seen her anywhere else?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. Sorry.

WorldCon 76 (Aug. 18, 2018)

And that all Heralds were either seen or mentioned before OB:

  Hide contents

Questioner (paraphrased)

Have we seen all of the Heralds?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned all of them, and you've seen a number of them, such as Shalash running around.

Footnote: From zas678: I'm pretty sure he mentioned something that made it clear that it was [Baxil's] Mistress, or the person cutting off the faces.
Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

 

Well, he said mentioned, and we have indeed had all 10 mentioned. Seeing them is a different story, he himself said "you've seen a number" as being different from the mention. 

But yes, Liss is definitely someone important. And also, definitely not Chana, we are like 99.9% sure on who Chana is. But Paliah or Vev are possible.  

Edited July 23, 2023 by Firesong

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

Hot take(or maybe not at all): the Ten Fools are actually the insane heralds.

I haven't been around in a while, so maybe someone else has thought of this.

[Aeoryi she/her]

3 minutes ago, Lego Mistborn said:

Hot take(or maybe not at all): the Ten Fools are actually the insane heralds.

I haven't been around in a while, so maybe someone else has thought of this.

Maybe, but people still consider the heralds gods in some places, and the ten fools are sort of more like a story or fable of what happens when you don't follow their lead. That's my theory on how the fools and the heralds relate

[Firesong she/her]

38 minutes ago, Lego Mistborn said:

Hot take(or maybe not at all): the Ten Fools are actually the insane heralds.

I haven't been around in a while, so maybe someone else has thought of this.

I mean, that is actually exactly what we were discussing on this very thread. That the Fools are Inverses of the Heralds, and we know the Herald's insanity makes them manifest the inverse of their attributes. 

[One of the Ten Fools he/him]

Are there any WOBs on this, or where they all RAFO.

I didn't look very hard

[BlueWildRye he/him]

Look! It's one of the ten fools now! There are a couple WOBS on the matter, I think they are present higher up on the topic.