Blue Skies Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Would explain some things. Although if Hoid knows something why would he go out of his way to avoid the 17th shard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STINK Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Hoid might feel that the 17th Shard are useless due to them being a group and yet still not being as effective as Hoid in 'his own eyes' or he could have a different goal pertaining to the 'super evil'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggai Posted August 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 WoB cut for relevancy. It seems to me that Adonalsium was shattered into 16 equal pieces, or nigh on near enough anyway (excluding prior events of Investing things. It seems to me that the 17th shard isn't meant to be taken as an actual Shard but to be interpreted/seen as more of a metaphorical/physical/underlying representation of an extra Intent Given that Adonalsium is known to have created Splinters even before the Shattering, I'm not convinced. It certainly disproves the "imperfect Shattering" narrative, but not the substance of the theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParadoxicalZen Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) I did say in my previous post that Adonalsium was shattered equally, excluding prior events of Investing things, meaning creating Splinters and the like. I'd still disagree, given that these Splinters of Adonalsium would be primarily Invested in the planets Adonalsium created them on, and could perhaps range from Honorspren size to Godspren size (Cusicesh and Stormfather), depending on however the magic manifests itself on each respective planet. As we've seen from SA with Honour and Cultivation's arrival, The Stormfather was most likely pure Adonalsium before taking up the majority of Tanavast's power and possibly dispersing it in the form of of more spren to act as a release valve, therefore that act could change The Stormfather from pure Adonalsiumspren to more Honour-aligned spren (this is speculation, but i'm rocking this head-canon given what we know of SA so far). Going from the Letter's reply, members of the 17th Shard - supposedly Hoid's 'old reptile' friend and in turn Thinker, Grump and Blunt - advocate a policy of non-intervention, which Hoid thinks foolish given Odium's track record. The reason why the 17th Shard are chasing Hoid is because all he does is meddle and interfere, which conflicts with their 'intent' because they fear he'll do more harm than good in the long run should he continue his ways. Another point would be that you can't really take up a Splinter's power as it is a portion of power that has become self-aware. Bond it perhaps, akin to Spren/Seons, but not take it up as you would take up Shard. Edited August 16, 2015 by ParadoxSpren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Between Thinker, Grump, and Blunt they don't really seem the non-intervening type, considering who they are XD People change after a few centuries I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParadoxicalZen Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) Between Thinker, Grump, and Blunt they don't really seem the non-intervening type, considering who they are XD People change after a few centuries I guess. I've yet to read the WS draft so I can't really comment on Blunt, and we know way too little of events between Elantris and SA, so Grump is a little tricky but I kinda agree with you on that. Thinker, though, could be on 'loan' from or is most likely acting on the behalf of Harmony, as a way to report on the events happening perhaps Edited August 17, 2015 by ParadoxSpren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 I haven't read WS either, I just can't remember who was who The other two were all for being in the middle of things. Especially Thinker. Who the hell would sign up for that if they didn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansalem Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 I think Hoid was a failed attempt to artificially create a new Shard or maybe a new Adonalsium. Don't ask me why, it just popped into my head and I like it. Could explain his mysterious powers, though, and maybe why he's "spiritually blind" if he's an artificial construct. I was just thinking of the quote where he mentions if Odium finds him he would become a fractured soul, which made me think of Adonalsium's shattering. Since that's basically what Odium has done to the other Shards yet it's been confirmed that Hoid isn't holding a Shard of Adonalsium (which doesn't necessarily mean he isn't holding an artificial Shard). His Intent is obviously Meddling. Perhaps the 17th Shard were the organization that created him and now they're trying to reign in their Frankenstein's Monster, so to speak. Wild speculation is fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 They only contradict each other when they are apart. Together, they are a perfect match and work well together. Opposites attract, yin and yang, all that good stuff. Nope, WoB is that holding two contradictory shards will affect the individual's ability to act unless their action doesn't reflect on the contradiction. Harmony is severely constrained against doing things that act on either of his two contradictory Intents. It's possible that it's too difficult for one person to pick up all of the Splinters. If each one has its own minor Intent, the struggle of so many Intents could easily destroy the holder. That would effectively prevent anyone from challenging Odium. The members could also have obtained the power previously. Ignoring the issue of whether splinters have intents and just speaking to Shards, it seems with the WoB regarding Harmony having conflicting purposes making it difficult for Sazed to act while holding both powers, there are two possibilities. Either Adonalsium had so many conflicting Intents that even trying at act at all after creating the universe is what shattered it into Shards, or something else shattered it, and conflicting purposes are most difficult when holding two contradictory shards, and holding more and more would make it easier to operate as the remaining Intents could balance out a contradiction between two of the others. Regarding Splinters: I would suspect that the ones we've seen so far, such as Returned, Seons, and Spren, aren't so strongly constrained or influenced by the Intent of their power- more that their magical abilities are shaped by that Intent. If there are more than 16 intents floating around there, and some of them are Splinter-sized, or somewhere between Splinter- and Shard-sized, I would expect that they also enjoy similar degrees of freedom from their Intent. Hoid's monologue in the chapter Gibbletish would suggest that something has been lost in the shattering of Adonalsium that prevents it from being put back together again. Like cutting food will release some energy, and crush some of the joins, it makes sense that the largest pieces would be discrete, but that a significant amount of adonalsium is out there floating in non-discrete pieces. These pieces might represent power like Stormlight or the Metallic Arts, or arguably those are produced by shards, and there are splinters out there like you hypothesise. Good guess though, I'd say there are good odds you're correct to a high degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 Adonalsium might not have had much trouble acting at all. The sum of all 16 intents do not necessarily drive him/her/other against doing nothing, because they might not balance out at all. Odium certainly contradicts no known shard in and of itself. Adonalsium could've had perfectly human-like behavior for all we know. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfa Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 To natc: Replace human-like with god-like, and I'll be fine fine with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mestiv Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 My idea on 17th Shard: Hoid was present during the Shattering. Let's say it happened in a cave or somewhere else. With him, there were 16 others, that became Shardholders. So, in total there were 17 "people", 16 of them became Shards. When everything was done, maybe they all came out of the cave to have a drink or something and were all seen hanging out. Then, the Shards went their separate ways leaving Hoid where he was. When questioned about what happened during the Shattering, he told about the 16 shards, but those who questioned him didn't believe him. They thought that Hoid is the 17th Shard. Conclusion: The 17th Shard is an organization that believes that Hoid is the 17th Shard, although he isn't, and they try to get to him for some reason. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondesu Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 My idea on 17th Shard: Hoid was present during the Shattering. Let's say it happened in a cave or somewhere else. With him, there were 16 others, that became Shardholders. So, in total there were 17 "people", 16 of them became Shards. When everything was done, maybe they all came out of the cave to have a drink or something and were all seen hanging out. Then, the Shards went their separate ways leaving Hoid where he was. When questioned about what happened during the Shattering, he told about the 16 shards, but those who questioned him didn't believe him. They thought that Hoid is the 17th Shard. Conclusion: The 17th Shard is an organization that believes that Hoid is the 17th Shard, although he isn't, and they try to get to him for some reason. That… makes a lot of sense. I've been of the opinion all along that there isn't any true "17th Shard" of Adolnasium, and that was just the name chosen by the organization to represent the fact that they have their own intent to presumably watch over the Shards and try to reign in those who go out of control like Odium, as well as gathering information about them, which has earned them Hoid's ire over time. That said, having them believe Hoid is a Shardholder makes his annoyance with them much more understandable and laughable. jW 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 Adonalsium might not have had much trouble acting at all. The sum of all 16 intents do not necessarily drive him/her/other against doing nothing, because they might not balance out at all. Odium certainly contradicts no known shard in and of itself. Adonalsium could've had perfectly human-like behavior for all we know. That would be my guess too, but we know so little about Adonalsium and how things work pre-shattering that we can't really draw any conclusions, it's all speculation. I would say that "balancing out" would actually be precisely how Adonalsium would be able to do anything with the way the force seemed to work- two contradictory shards might constrain you, but sixteen complementary intents means you'd normally have dozens of intents that you're either somewhat on-side with, or at least not opposed to. I'm with Jon regarding this theory though: 17th Shard is just a cute name for the little spy organisation Demoux and friends have going on. We don't even know if it's possible to have splinters that don't match a Shard's intent, which would be a question to bring to a signing before going too far into this sort of theory, IMO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paragrin Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 The naming of the Seventeenth Shard has been reminding me for awhile now of the House of the Jhereg, from the Dragaera books by Steven Brust. The story in that one is, before the founding of the Empire in the backstory, there were thirty-one Houses named after various animals (and each having a certain amount of DNA of those animals (aliens, go with it)). So, eventually, this guy gets kicked out of one of the highest-ranked of the Houses, and proceeds to gather the criminals and Houseless into a loose organization that eventually ends up calling itself "the House of the Jhereg" (a scavenger reptile) semi-sarcastically. (They traded their services as spies, in the unification war, for inclusion as a legitimate Great House in the Empire being unified.) Just something to think about (and a shameless plug for MORE REALLY GOOD BOOKS). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyperson Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 Harmony is a shard Honor is a shard Cultivation is a shard Odium is a shard IS HOID A SHARD?!?! Maybe that's why he changed his name and is so enigmatic and is being pursued by ressurected army captains! Maybe he IS the Seventeenth Shard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansalem Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 Harmony is a shard Honor is a shard Cultivation is a shard Odium is a shard IS HOID A SHARD?!?! Maybe that's why he changed his name and is so enigmatic and is being pursued by ressurected army captains! Maybe he IS the Seventeenth Shard! Well, he isn't a Shard of Adonalsium according to WoB. So if he is a Shard then it's from something other than Adonalsium. He might be a failed attempt to reproduce Adonalsium artificially but that's wild speculation on my part with no evidence whatsoever to back it up. I like that idea, but I don't actually think it's right. When I'm being honest I think Hoid is some kind of Investiture construct. Sort of like a much much more sophisticated Nightblood, perhaps. If so he was created by magic pre-dating the Shattering, so probably a magic from Adonalsium itself. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfa Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 Could it be, that Hoid is something like... a dream, a thought of Adonalsium. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyperson Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 Maybe he's a deviant of the organization... a rebel, if you will. That could be why they're sending resurrected army captains/seers after him. He could have stolen the shard, and has been running ever since. (Doctor Who reminiscent, I'm aware.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyperson Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) Could it be, that Hoid is something like... a dream, a thought of Adonalsium. Sub-conscience? Edited August 29, 2015 by Keen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Could it be, that Hoid is something like... a dream, a thought of Adonalsium.A cognitive shadow, the image of what remains of the one who was gone given life by a last burst of power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfa Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Preservation beware us from any god-like something with Hoids attitude. Even if he is "terribly inefficient at hurting people", his first creation would be something like one hundred chasmfiends singing praise to him or something even worse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) Well, he isn't a Shard of Adonalsium according to WoB. So if he is a Shard then it's from something other than Adonalsium. He might be a failed attempt to reproduce Adonalsium artificially but that's wild speculation on my part with no evidence whatsoever to back it up. I like that idea, but I don't actually think it's right. When I'm being honest I think Hoid is some kind of Investiture construct. Sort of like a much much more sophisticated Nightblood, perhaps. If so he was created by magic pre-dating the Shattering, so probably a magic from Adonalsium itself. Unless things have changed very dramatically from Brandon's previous attempt to write the Liar of Partinel, Hoid is simply a magical person who has picked up a lot of extra powers in his adventures and later his travels. It's possible that's had some effects on him that make him something not-precisely-the-same-as-an-average human, but remember he seems to understand human interactions and motivations well enough still, at least during the events of the Stormlight Archive. Who knows what happens to him by the final chapters of the big meta-story. Edited August 30, 2015 by Ari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) Maybe he picked so many different magics and abused them in so many ways that by the point of the shattering he was more splinter than man, or was changed in some other significant way, like becoming some sort of universal investiture savant that can't even hold his body together without magic, but can use it with incredible precision and efficacy. Edited August 31, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyperson Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Preservation beware us from any god-like something with Hoids attitude. Even if he is "terribly inefficient at hurting people", his first creation would be something like one hundred chasmfiends singing praise to him or something even worse. What are you talking about that would be amazing (if he could get them all to harmonize) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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