The Nature of the Seventeenth Shard

[Ari]

Maybe he picked so many different magics and abused them in so many ways that by the point of the shattering he was more splinter than man, or was changed in some other significant way, like becoming some sort of universal investiture savant that can't even hold his body together without magic, but can use it with incredible precision and efficacy.

 

The problem with that is that Splinters held by humans have had very human motivations. The Returned were very human, (displaying status anxiety, fear for their lives, boredom, and even from time to time, bravery) The Lord Ruler had very human failings and successes, (in fact he seemed more affected by his compounding and Ruin's influence) and Vin didn't seem dramatically affected by her time as a Splinter, with the only notable side-effect being that it attuned her to the mists.

 

So far it looks like you need to have the full shard experience, and for a long time, to be noticably affected by a shard's intent from holding too much power.

 

Now, what hasn't seemed human-like? The species created by usages of that power, like the Kandra and Koloss. Which suggests the easiest way to change people using investiture is to use it to warp their bodies (like Kandra and Koloss) or their spirit. (like TLR and Spook being manipulated by Ruin)

[Ansalem]

The problem with that is that Splinters held by humans have had very human motivations. The Returned were very human, (displaying status anxiety, fear for their lives, boredom, and even from time to time, bravery) The Lord Ruler had very human failings and successes, (in fact he seemed more affected by his compounding and Ruin's influence) and Vin didn't seem dramatically affected by her time as a Splinter, with the only notable side-effect being that it attuned her to the mists.

 

So far it looks like you need to have the full shard experience, and for a long time, to be noticably affected by a shard's intent from holding too much power.

 

Now, what hasn't seemed human-like? The species created by usages of that power, like the Kandra and Koloss. Which suggests the easiest way to change people using investiture is to use it to warp their bodies (like Kandra and Koloss) or their spirit. (like TLR and Spook being manipulated by Ruin)

 

Just for the sake of clarity, The Lord Ruler and Vin were Slivers not Splinters. Slivers are humans who have held a Shard briefly and then released it. Splinters are pieces of a Shard's power. Humans can't be a Splinter, although they can hold one a la the Returned. You might say the Knights Radiant are people holding a Splinter by bonding with a spren, but I think it's unclear whether the spren are technically Splinters in the sense that it could be a matter of degree. The Honorblades are probably Splinters.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Ansalem

[Ari]

Just for the sake of clarity, The Lord Ruler and Vin were Slivers not Splinters. Slivers are humans who have held a Shard briefly and then released it. Splinters are pieces of a Shard's power. Humans can't be a Splinter, although they can hold one a la the Returned. You might say the Knights Radiant are people holding a Splinter by bonding with a spren, but I think it's unclear whether the spren are technically Splinters in the sense that it could be a matter of degree. The Honorblades are probably Splinters.

 

Oh, true, I was getting very confused there. Although arguably a Sliver is even more powerful than a Splinter.

 

The other Splinters we know of, Spren and Seons, were never human in the first place, and gained their personality through investiture, so they're not a good example to follow. But we can at least look to the Returned to see how being a Splinter would affect a human.

[DreamEternal]

The problem with that is that Splinters held by humans have had very human motivations. The Returned were very human, (displaying status anxiety, fear for their lives, boredom, and even from time to time, bravery) The Lord Ruler had very human failings and successes, (in fact he seemed more affected by his compounding and Ruin's influence) and Vin didn't seem dramatically affected by her time as a Splinter, with the only notable side-effect being that it attuned her to the mists.

So far it looks like you need to have the full shard experience, and for a long time, to be noticably affected by a shard's intent from holding too much power.

Now, what hasn't seemed human-like? The species created by usages of that power, like the Kandra and Koloss. Which suggests the easiest way to change people using investiture is to use it to warp their bodies (like Kandra and Koloss) or their spirit. (like TLR and Spook being manipulated by Ruin)

Why can't Hoid have human motivations and thoughts? What matters is that he isn't fully human anymore, just like a tin savant, except in all physical aspects. That does not stop him from thinking like a human.

[Ari]

Why can't Hoid have human motivations and thoughts? What matters is that he isn't fully human anymore, just like a tin savant, except in all physical aspects. That does not stop him from thinking like a human.

 

I would say human motivations and thoughts are a key part of what makes you human, not just physical form. If you upload a human mind to a computer, that mind is still a human IMO. Arguably, for instance, the Kandra probably started out human when they were transformed into Mistwraiths, but the change to their form has probably influenced their thoughts and culture to such a degree that in the very least they could be considered a unique human culture, if not an actual alien race in full given their isolation and seperation from humans. Koloss (as of the first Mistborn trilogy, anyway) are definitely no longer human as their ability to reason and feel the same way we do has been impaired by the hemalurgic transformation.

 

Spook didn't become any less human when becoming a Savant imo. It just enhanced his physical capabilities in certain ways.

Arguing that physical form entirely defines humanity gets you into the kind of tricky thinking where for instance you can define the Skaa as less-than-human because of their physical differences from the nobility. Humanity is about certain values, methods of thought, and the ability to maintain a common community. Physical traits are part of that, certainly, as sexual compatibility for instance plays a large part in that community, as does the ability to be held accountable if you break laws. But nothing we've seen from him so far suggests Hoid has gained or lost so much he considers himself removed from that community the way the Kandra did.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Ari

[DreamEternal]

I would say human motivations and thoughts are a key part of what makes you human, not just physical form. If you upload a human mind to a computer, that mind is still a human IMO. Arguably, for instance, the Kandra probably started out human when they were transformed into Mistwraiths, but the change to their form has probably influenced their thoughts and culture to such a degree that in the very least they could be considered a unique human culture, if not an actual alien race in full given their isolation and seperation from humans. Koloss (as of the first Mistborn trilogy, anyway) are definitely no longer human as their ability to reason and feel the same way we do has been impaired by the hemalurgic transformation.

Spook didn't become any less human when becoming a Savant imo. It just enhanced his physical capabilities in certain ways.

Arguing that physical form entirely defines humanity gets you into the kind of tricky thinking where for instance you can define the Skaa as less-than-human because of their physical differences from the nobility. Humanity is about certain values, methods of thought, and the ability to maintain a common community. Physical traits are part of that, certainly, as sexual compatibility for instance plays a large part in that community, as does the ability to be held accountable if you break laws. But nothing we've seen from him so far suggests Hoid has gained or lost so much he considers himself removed from that community the way the Kandra did.

There is not such a thing as less or more than human. There is human and non-human and a shaky line in between.

Human≠person. All humans are people, but if you uploaded a human mind into a computer, in my opinion that person wouldn't be a human, even having a human mind. I see "human" as the name of the species, a pure biological descriptor. Being mentaly different makes no difference.

For exemple, lets compare Szeth to the kandra: blind loyalt to the costums of his society, being willing to follow a terrible pact because of your religion, being cultiraly isolated from other peoples and seeing them as inferior, it all checks. Yet, he is human and they are not anymore.

Even better: you said Spook is still human, depite Sazed himself saying that tin savants are in some ways not humans anymore. He did not say this to diminish Spook, he did not say this to say he was beneath humans during his time as a savant. He was just as much of a person as anyone else. Yet, from Sazed's point of view it was a fact he wasn't human.

Humanity is overrated.

Edited September 1, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[soyperson]

There is not such a thing as less or more than human. There is human and non-human and a shaky line in between.

Human≠person. All humans are people, but if you uploaded a human mind into a computer, in my opinion that person wouldn't be a human, even having a human mind. I see "human" as the name of the species, a pure biological descriptor. Being mentaly different makes no different.

For exemple, lets compare Szeth to the kandra: blind loyalt to the costums of his society, being willing to follow a terrible pact because of your religion, being cultiraly isolated from other peoples and seeing them as inferior, it all checks. Yet, he is human and they are not anymore.

Even better: you said Spook is still human, depite Sazed himself saying that tin savants are in some ways not humans anymore. He did not say this to diminish Spook, he did not say this to say he was beneath humans during his time as a savant. He was just as much of a person as anyone else. Yet, from Sazed's point of view it was a fact he wasn't human.

Humanity is overrated.

 

Human is not a line, even if it is blurry. Human is merely an adjective. Being called human is like calling Kaladin an Alethi. 

It is not a definition, it is merely a guideline to help understand the subject. It is a species classification. Spook is Spook, and that is that.

[Ari]

There is not such a thing as less or more than human. There is human and non-human and a shaky line in between.

Human≠person. All humans are people, but if you uploaded a human mind into a computer, in my opinion that person wouldn't be a human, even having a human mind. I see "human" as the name of the species, a pure biological descriptor. Being mentaly different makes no difference.

For exemple, lets compare Szeth to the kandra: blind loyalt to the costums of his society, being willing to follow a terrible pact because of your religion, being cultiraly isolated from other peoples and seeing them as inferior, it all checks. Yet, he is human and they are not anymore.

Even better: you said Spook is still human, depite Sazed himself saying that tin savants are in some ways not humans anymore. He did not say this to diminish Spook, he did not say this to say he was beneath humans during his time as a savant. He was just as much of a person as anyone else. Yet, from Sazed's point of view it was a fact he wasn't human.

Humanity is overrated.

 

I have a ton of things I can say to that, but I think we're getting a bit off topic from the Seventeenth Shard, so I'll reign myself in.

 

I'm defining humanity sociologically. You're saying they need to be "homo sapiens." Hence our different opinions. Under my definition, I don't see how Hoid isn't human in every observable sense, despite whatevery cool tricks he's picked up. Under yours, you'd want a DNA test, which you can only get via WoB, so unless it implies something cool, there's no point theorising about it until you've asked Brandon.

[ParadoxicalZen]

 

Interview: Mar 5th, 2014

WoR Signing Report - Sir Read-a-Lot (Paraphrased)

Question

Is the Seventeenth Shard meant to represent a specific Shardic intent?

Brandon Sanderson

The Seventeenth Shard has a specific purpose, and the name was chosen very deliberately.

 

 

Interesting WoB. Actually gives me some ideas.

Edited September 14, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[DreamEternal]

Under yours, you'd want a DNA test, which you can only get via WoB, so unless it implies something cool, there's no point theorising about it until you've asked Brandon.

Well, I believe there is a WoB out there about Hoid's breaths that says that he has incredible control over investiture(sorry for not linking it, I am on mobile) and if you believe in Skaa's L-String theory he can use Yolen Lightweaving to manipilate the quanta of investiture directly. So if his body is basicaly held togheter by investiture, or is solid investiture, then he could probably do a lot of cool things, like aimian shapeshifting.

[Ari]

Well, I believe there is a WoB out there about Hoid's breaths that says that he has incredible control over investiture(sorry for not linking it, I am on mobile) and if you believe in Skaa's L-String theory he can use Yolen Lightweaving to manipilate the quanta of investiture directly. So if his body is basicaly held togheter by investiture, or is solid investiture, then he could probably do a lot of cool things, like aimian shapeshifting.

 

And this is why I am done with this discussion: You're wildly speculating based on what could be true about Hoid with little attention to what we've actually got available in the text. (which is largely his interactions with a few people, and a couple of shallow viewpoint scenes with little introspection) Sure, Hoid could have the ability to summon unicorns and cause people to spontaneously dance with his incredible control over investiture, but until we actually have some hint suggesting those things, or some precedent that either is actually possible, there's little point to that kind of speculation.