Lyly Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 Hey everyone ! This is my first post (outside my presentation) and I wanted to ask you what you were thinking about the last book's chapters. I really love Sanderson's books (specially Mistborn series), WoK was amazing but the end of WoR is just killing me. It feels like there is a lot of chapters missing and the book climax just drop too quickly leaving too many lose endings, and I feel really frustrated about it. I know there will be 8 more books but one year (minimum) to wait for the next chapter is awful. The big revelation I was waiting for since WoK (Kaladin as a KR), just happened without big moments between Kaladin and Dalinar : one-two sentences. No hug, no feelings, no confessions between them. Kaladin fighting the assassin to death to protect everyone just seems natural, no big thing. He even got yelling at by Navani, completely panicked for her son when he returns victorious. Just action, facts and it feels empty without emotions from main characters. Again, Kaladin and Shallan in the same room, the first time since the chasm episode where they trust each other with their worst secrets, feelings and stories and they looked mutely at the pillars of the chamber ? Of course there will be more in the next books, but I would have been happy with one glance exchange or a few thoughts on the situation. I don't understand why with a book containing a thousand pages, the ending has to be so rushed. I know It was the author decision to finish his book like this, there is surely a reason why, but for me it feels just incomplete. What do you think ? Cheers Lyly P.S. Sorry for my english, it is not my first language. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 I... don't know, actually. I didn't feel like that at all. The climax had to be fast-paced, that's how Brandon writes them, but I felt like things were explained and made sense. P.S. This should be moved to the Words of Radiance subforum, where the "beware spoilers" won't be necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyly Posted July 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 Ooops sorry didn't know it was at the wrong place. Could a moderator move this post ? I don't know how or if I can do it. Thank you Lyly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaeMofo Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 I honestly can't picture Kaladin having big emotional outbursts, he's a very private character, Shallan too to an extent. We may see big emotional scenes in the coming books but I don't think the characters are quite developed enough yet, they still have to work through all of their trauma. Like the poster above, I didn't find the ending rushed at all, it fits in with the rest of Brandon's writing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyht Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 While it didn't feel that way to me, I understand what you are saying. Previously there had been a bit of a spark between Kaladin and Shallan, and no reference to it in that chapter. However, this was from Dalinar's point of view. And Dalinar is to straight forward to really see the nuance of human emotions, so he would not likely have noticed anything between Shallan and Kaladin even if it did happen. Any maybe the reason Shallan and Kaladin seemed to not be speaking to each other is they are actually a little bit uncomfortable around each other now. Hm... now I want to reread that chapter and imagine what they are thinking knowing their history and personalities. One last point. Dalinar would never hug Kaladin. Never in a million years. He is Kaladin's commanding officer, a clap on the back, a hand on the shoulder, but not a hug. And you are not likely to see much emotional talk between those two either. What passed between them when Kaladin was in jail was unusual and caused by the extreme emotions of the situation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal she/her Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 (edited) I do not understand why Dalinar should have hugged Kaladin? He does even hug Renarin, his own son, upon finding out he is a Radiant as well... He squeezes his shoulder which is probably the most physically forward we have seen him with his sons... I think you are working on the popular assumption that Kaladin is now an adopted member of the Kohlin family which isn't the case. Kaladin is Dalinar's head of guars, his employee. He likes him and yes he gives more leeway then he should in part in retribution for saving his life and in part because he is running out of allies. However, we cannot expect Dalinar to nurture a relationship akin to father/son with Kaladin nor has he ever acted as such. As for feelings, well, Dalinar is not the most expressive person... The only emotions we have seen him convey so far are anger and worry over the faith of Alethkar. Period. He is a man who has always deal with emotions by brandishing his 6 foot shardblade and hacking into something living, you cannot expect him to convey happiness and joy upon finding one of his soldier is a Radiant! He hardly mustered any emotion for Renarin, his son. Navani is understandable. She has just lost her daughter and she fears for her son. When one's children life is in gambit, all other issues becomes insignificant. What is it to Navani that Kaladin is a Radiant pr that he killed Szeth? Nothing compared to what she is enduring. How is that supposed to surpassed her fear for her last living child's life, insufferable whiny thing that he is, he remains her son and we, mothers, we tend to keep seeing them as little babies, always Yes, I know. It's a women's thing Kaladin and Shallan shared a moment in the chasm. Period. They did not become great friends all of a sudden simply because during a night they thought they may not survived they opened their heart to each others. It made them notice each others, but they are not in a relationship. They do not have to acknowledge each other, but in fact, they do. Shallan shares a few thoughts for Kal and she is happy for him, but her running to him to tell him would have been completely out of place. He remains a simple soldier and she is the betrothed to an Alethki prince. As for the climax, I agree some of it felt rushed. I, personally, did not like the revelation of Dalinar and Renarin's radianhood. Dalinar, I thought it was too easy, he shouts a few words and bang Radiant! Renarin, it came out of nowhere, for me. I do not feel he deserved it either since he has little accomplishment on his side besides being born with a disease. Other Radiants have actually proven why they were chosen, why they deserved it, but not him. Albeit, if we have a POV we may understand more. Edited July 9, 2014 by maxal 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zea mays Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 Welp, some things were glossed over/left to be explored in the next book: What did Kaladin say to Bridge Four about Moash? How much of his involvement with the assasination cabal did he confess to Dalinar? Did Shallan and Kal have any conversation after discovering they were both radiants? How is dear old Elohkar dealing with an actual, not-at-all paranoid delusion assasination attempt? (involving a member of his honor guard too). A lot of threads were left hanging. I got the impression that Mr. Sanderson didn't want to clutter up the denumont (how do you spell that? Help me O French person!) of the book, and will further explore some of the things that happened that first week in Urithiru in the next book (yes Adolin, I'm looking at you). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal she/her Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 (edited) Welp, some things were glossed over/left to be explored in the next book: What did Kaladin say to Bridge Four about Moash? How much of his involvement with the assasination cabal did he confess to Dalinar? Did Shallan and Kal have any conversation after discovering they were both radiants? How is dear old Elohkar dealing with an actual, not-at-all paranoid delusion assasination attempt? (involving a member of his honor guard too). A lot of threads were left hanging. I got the impression that Mr. Sanderson didn't want to clutter up the denumont (how do you spell that? Help me O French person!) of the book, and will further explore some of the things that happened that first week in Urithiru in the next book (yes Adolin, I'm looking at you). Dénouement -> Denouement. Pretty much the same. As for the rest, he probably did not have time to talk much to Bridge 4, but he surely made up something to cover for Moash..... He certainly did not tell Dalinar a thing and he'd better hope he'll never find out. Not that we know of. I am hoping Elhokar is seeing voidspren and I am willing to sacrifice one chicken a day if it prevents Brandon from turning him into a Radiant, useless wimp that he is Edited July 9, 2014 by maxal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zea mays Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 Thank you Maxal! I hope that by "sacrifice a chicken" you mean cook it to deliciousness with red wine and garlic and stuff because that is totally a thing you should do. Every day. I agree it would feel wrong for the king to become a radiant. I disagree about Kal keeping his involvement completely hidden from Dalinar. Two things I think he should definitely mention are: A) Dalnan is a spy. She probably leaked the record of the visions. Graves specifically mentioned a "we" that have been trying separate Kal from Dalinar, on the specific night szeth dropped by. A group of people involved with the Assassin in white hiding right there in the warcamps. Those are things Dalinar needs to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrono she/her Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 I felt like the climax was perfect. It's very fast paced, which is how it should be. I didn't feel like the ending dragged, which is a hefty feat in the fantasy genre (Return of the King had ending fatigue big time). As for the whole hugging thing, we have to remember that physical intimacy and contact is not a big thing in Alethi culture. Shallan and Adolin are engaged for crying out loud, and they don't even kiss in public. It's implied heavily that PDA is looked down upon and that sort of behavior is both unseemly and inappropriate. Hugging another man in public may be seen as embarrassing and forbidden. Dalinar also seems a very closed-off type emotionally, and Kaladin even more so. I don't see them ever hugging each other, even if they become best buds. If you want evidence that they're tight, look at the scene where Kaladin comes back from the chasm. Dalinar hears the news, and he runs the entire way. Kaladin stands up and salutes him when he's exhausted. That's dedication. As for Renarin, are you kidding? The kid is a social outcast, he struggles with mild autism, and he also has some clear self-esteem issues stemming from his epilepsy. Sure, he wasn't branded a slave or forced to kill his parents, but that sort of inner conflict and pain is totally enough to attract a spren. Renarin's life is very sad if you take the time to get the hints. He's struggling so hard to be a traditional Alethi male, but it's nearly impossible for him to do it. He's called a failure to his face by Sadeas. His father and brother love him and understand him, but no one else seems to, and he has no visible friends. Renarin is leading a very lonely life trying to be someone he's not so that people will stop referring to himself as the shame of the Kholin family. If that doesn't attract a spren, I have no clue what does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyly Posted July 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 Well I agree I have been too far concerning the hug thing, but it was just to highlight I wanted an exchange, explanation, reactions from Kaladin and Dalinar. Before being interrupted by Navani, he wanted to talk with Dalinar. Then I think we jump a few days after the event to the Dalinar POV chapter. Of course Dalinar, Brightlord, and Kaladin darkeyes will never have a father to adopted son relationship, but he could at least react or feel something after Kaladin victory. He cried of joy in front of Shallan... While Dalinar will never be a father to Kaladin, I think he has strong paternal feelings for Kaladin, otherwise he would call him soldier and not "son" on many occasions. Renarin is just irritating me but I am waiting for his story development. A radiant ? Not really helping instead of shouting "it's come" and "we're dead" and distracting Shallan. If he can really see the future he should have helped earlier... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 I think you are either missing the complexity of some of the characters or their relationships, or you are trying to make them fit into more classical character roles from the fantasy genre (which doesn't work), and that's the main reason you are missing out on the euphoria most of us shared in those final chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyly Posted July 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 Well I don't know what to answer to that. This is just how I feel and I don't think I am trying to fit these characters in more classical roles. I guess I wanted more feelings and reactions from the characters at the end but I am really looking forward to see how all these characters will develop with the next eight books. (personal note : I am not only a fan of classical fantasy genres. My long favourite fantasy books list contains all kind of fantasy books with Brandon Sanderson Mistborn, but also with Mark Lawrence amazing trilogy, Scott Lynch Gentlemen bastards serie, Anthony Ryan first indie book, Peter V.Brett Demon cycle, Patrick Rothfuss and Robin Hobb prose treasures and so many more...) But ok I concede I am perhaps too romantic. Sorry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 (edited) I think the ending was very streamlined in a lot of ways. We didn't get a scene of Shallan speaking with Adolin about her Radiant powers, for example, or any other things that would have been really nice to know. There was also a timeskip as they explored Urithiru which was unfortunate, as I'd like to learn more about what all is in there. The Radiants can't have left it bare. I agree that the ending felt a little rushed (particularly the Renarin reveal which was urgh). It's not the end of the world, though. Hopefully we'll get everything missing as the start of the next book. Edited July 9, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 (edited) It was very emotional for me, but I agree it would have been nice to have one more chapter, something more relaxing after everything that happened. I think I read something along the lines of ~1080 pages being the limit of Tor's printing press, so I suppose they just couldn't add anything else. edit: forgot the not in the last sentence Edited July 9, 2014 by Aleksiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left he/him Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 I anticipate some of the real reactions and stuff to occur in the beginning of book three. Putting them into the ending would have slowed things down too much in my opinion. When I reach a climax I like verbs, not nouns and adjectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver he/him Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 It's not the end of the world, though. Were we reading the same book? ; ) Smart comments aside... honestly, I haven't been pleased with an ending to Brandon's books yet. They are good...but none of them give me the sense of closure I expect or want. And time skipping seems to be a favourite trick of his, given the endings to this, Final Empire and Warbreaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal she/her Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 As for Renarin, are you kidding? The kid is a social outcast, he struggles with mild autism, and he also has some clear self-esteem issues stemming from his epilepsy. Sure, he wasn't branded a slave or forced to kill his parents, but that sort of inner conflict and pain is totally enough to attract a spren. Renarin's life is very sad if you take the time to get the hints. He's struggling so hard to be a traditional Alethi male, but it's nearly impossible for him to do it. He's called a failure to his face by Sadeas. His father and brother love him and understand him, but no one else seems to, and he has no visible friends. Renarin is leading a very lonely life trying to be someone he's not so that people will stop referring to himself as the shame of the Kholin family. If that doesn't attract a spren, I have no clue what does. So being born with a disability makes you an automatic candidate for Radianhood? I get it he had a rough childhood, but being broken or having lived through hard times does not make one a Radiant. You need to embrace your first ideal, to live by it, to overcome your issues through it. We have seen it in Kal, in Dalinar and in Shallan, but not in Renarin. All he had done in both books is complain over what he cannot do instead of focusing on what he can do. Did he envisioned the attribute "learned" through is difficulties? Not that we could see. Perhaps the lack of POV makes this difficult to judge and we will probably understand more when we'll get one, however I still do not see Renarin as deserving Radianhood. Why? Because his "journey" appear mild in comparison to others, yes, but more importantly because he has done nothing to help himself! Have we ever see him studying? Or trying to be a stormwarden like Shallan's brother or do anything scholarly besides asking ONE question about a new fabrial to his aunt? He was not even there when she was trying her lifting platform.... If he were this learned, he should have been there, just to look, at least. I guess my main issue is I do not believe it is the brokenness of one person that attracts a spren, but its personality, its qualities and we have not seen any of those in Ren. Being broken is what the spren needs to attach itself to a human, but they get attracted by something else. I just cannot get a spren was attracted by Ren simply because he has autism! Albeit, all this may become more obvious in future books. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggai Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 Dénouement -> Denouement. Pretty much the same. As for the rest, he probably did not have time to talk much to Bridge 4, but he surely made up something to cover for Moash..... He certainly did not tell Dalinar a thing and he'd better hope he'll never find out. Not that we know of. I am hoping Elhokar is seeing voidspren and I am willing to sacrifice one chicken a day if it prevents Brandon from turning him into a Radiant, useless wimp that he is You like Elhokar as a useless wimp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal she/her Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 You like Elhokar as a useless wimp? No, but I am not compel enough by the character to wish for a redemption story. Besides, I suppose one of the Kohlins has to bite the dust and I will die a thousand deaths if that Kohlin ends up being Adolin, so I am routing for Elhokar in that matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 (edited) So being born with a disability makes you an automatic candidate for Radianhood? I get it he had a rough childhood, but being broken or having lived through hard times does not make one a Radiant. You need to embrace your first ideal, to live by it, to overcome your issues through it. We have seen it in Kal, in Dalinar and in Shallan, but not in Renarin. All he had done in both books is complain over what he cannot do instead of focusing on what he can do. Did he envisioned the attribute "learned" through is difficulties? Not that we could see. Perhaps the lack of POV makes this difficult to judge and we will probably understand more when we'll get one, however I still do not see Renarin as deserving Radianhood. Why? Because his "journey" appear mild in comparison to others, yes, but more importantly because he has done nothing to help himself! Have we ever see him studying? Or trying to be a stormwarden like Shallan's brother or do anything scholarly besides asking ONE question about a new fabrial to his aunt? He was not even there when she was trying her lifting platform.... If he were this learned, he should have been there, just to look, at least. I guess my main issue is I do not believe it is the brokenness of one person that attracts a spren, but its personality, its qualities and we have not seen any of those in Ren. Being broken is what the spren needs to attach itself to a human, but they get attracted by something else. I just cannot get a spren was attracted by Ren simply because he has autism! Albeit, all this may become more obvious in future books. ...Are we talking about the same Renarin? We've seen Renarin run out unarmored and basically unarmed against a raging chasmfiend on the off chance that he might be able to help. We've seen Renarin consistently be Adolin's guidepost to prevent disaster (though it came later.) We've seen Renarin train tirelessly and without complaint doing whatever ridiculous task Zahel set him to. We've seen Renarin walk into a fight against four accomplished shardbearers in full plate with only his shardblade, which was screaming at him the entire time. We've seen Renarin completely debase himself for Bridge 4 in an attempt to become a better soldier, son, and Prince. If there's a reason Renarin doesn't do things to help himself, it's because he's trying to help other people, though we have seen him help himself a few times. Edited July 9, 2014 by EMTrevor 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal she/her Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 ...Are we talking about the same Renarin? We've seen Renarin run out unarmored and basically unarmed against a raging chasmfiend on the off chance that he might be able to help. We've seen Renarin consistently be Adolin's guidepost to prevent disaster (though it came later.) We've seen Renarin train tirelessly and without complaint doing whatever ridiculous task Zahel set him to. We've seen Renarin walk into a fight against four accomplished shardbearers in full plate with only his shardblade, which was screaming at him the entire time. We've seen Renarin completely debase himself for Bridge 4 in an attempt to become a better soldier, son, and Prince. If there's a reason Renarin doesn't do things to help himself, it's because he's trying to help other people, though we have seen him help himself a few times Oh I agree about all this. It's just that none of these things envisioned the concept of "learned" I have in my mind. As I said, it will probably become clearer in the next books. For me, someone who is "learned" seeks knowledge at all cost, which could have been a nice setting for someone like Renarin, unable to fight, but able to find use elsewhere. However, all we saw Renarin doing is trying to be someone he is not and, yes, of course, trying to protect his brother/father in any way he can. That was sweet. They all seem to have the protection gene going strong in the family. Unfortunately, we haven't seen him exploit his first attribute much. Either that or I am seriously misguided in my reading of "learned" as a first attribute. For me, all of these things do not add up with him which is why his revelation fell flat for me and uncalled for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter he/him Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 No, but I am not compel enough by the character to wish for a redemption story. Besides, I suppose one of the Kohlins has to bite the dust and I will die a thousand deaths if that Kohlin ends up being Adolin, so I am routing for Elhokar in that matter #NOMOREDEADKHOLINS2014!!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggai Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 #NOMOREDEADKHOLINS2014!!! That's a bit inaccurate. We haven't had even one so far. Wait... Stones Unhallowed is coming out in 2015/16. CONFIRMED: ALL THE KHOLINS DIE IN STONES UNHALLOWED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter he/him Posted July 10, 2014 Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 That's a bit inaccurate. We haven't had even one so far. Wait... Stones Unhallowed is coming out in 2015/16. CONFIRMED: ALL THE KHOLINS DIE IN STONES UNHALLOWED. Gavilar is dead, there's one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts