Reviving Honor in the Stormlight archives

[winternight]

I'd been rereading the stormlight archives and the concept of 2 deaths (physical and when something is forgotten) mad me think that maybe since Honor hasn't experienced a second death(people still remember him) he can somehow be revived using shadesmar. What are your thoughts?

[+Invocation]

Honor the Shard could for sure be put back together, with enough time, effort, and Stormlight. Tanavast as a Vessel of the Shard...probably not so much. His Cognitive Shadow could have taken up the role and probably done a decent imitation of the still-living Vessel (not perfect but decent, for a lot of reasons) if it hadn't already merged with the Stormfather. I also doubt Odium would have left enough of Tanavast's Shadow lingering to let that happen if it could have, or if it had been a significant chance.

[Quantus]

This question all depends on how much you believe in The Beyond, a soul separate from the Spiritweb, and all that stuff that is intended to be an ongoing in-world debate.  

Tanavast died but left a Cognitive Shadow behind, which he merged with the Stormfather spren.  His soul may or may not have moved on by then (Vasher has some depressed thoughts on the Returned equivalent).  It may or may not be possible to separate the shadow and spren now, even for a Shard.  

But at the end of the day, if Tanavast could have been revived Cultivation would certainly have tried it.  

[Letryx13]

Unfortunately, Tanavast is probably gone for good.  Bringing him back is almost certainly impossible.  The most of him that we could see is a spiritual realm vision.

Reassembling the shard of Honor on the other hand, is almost certainly doable.  And very likely is the something that will be a major plot point in either book 5 or the back half of SA.  Personally, I'm hoping some well known, but not super important, character like Lopen ends up with the shard.

[winternight]

11 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Unfortunately, Tanavast is probably gone for good.  Bringing him back is almost certainly impossible.  The most of him that we could see is a spiritual realm vision.

Reassembling the shard of Honor on the other hand, is almost certainly doable.  And very likely is the something that will be a major plot point in either book 5 or the back half of SA.  Personally, I'm hoping some well known, but not super important, character like Lopen ends up with the shard.

that would be nice.

[winternight]

17 hours ago, Invocation said:

Honor the Shard could for sure be put back together, with enough time, effort, and Stormlight. Tanavast as a Vessel of the Shard...probably not so much. His Cognitive Shadow could have taken up the role and probably done a decent imitation of the still-living Vessel (not perfect but decent, for a lot of reasons) if it hadn't already merged with the Stormfather. I also doubt Odium would have left enough of Tanavast's Shadow lingering to let that happen if it could have, or if it had been a significant chance.

look, I'm not really a master of the Cosmere magic systems but hypothetically they could bring back the shard and make someone Honor. If so, could he oppose Odium?

[+Invocation]

32 minutes ago, winternight said:

look, I'm not really a master of the Cosmere magic systems but hypothetically they could bring back the shard and make someone Honor. If so, could he oppose Odium?

Could? Yeah probably. Would? You'd hope so, but you never know. Cultivation probably wouldn't step in for a new Honor the way she did for Tanavast's conflict with Odium, so it'd probably just end up deadlocked.

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ]

On 6/15/2023 at 8:20 PM, Invocation said:

Could? Yeah probably.

Odium also killed honor before and he had been mentioned as the most powerful of the 16 shards. So even if they got Honor, we don’t know if that would be enough to face the full power of Oduum.

[+Invocation]

4 hours ago, WitIsThe Best said:

Odium also killed honor before and he had been mentioned as the most powerful of the 16 shards. So even if they got Honor, we don’t know if that would be enough to face the full power of Oduum.

That would still be a could, just not a particularly effective one. But it also might not be as much of an issue as you'd assume, because (Hero of Ages spoilers)

Spoiler

it takes a while for the power of a Shard to completely seep through a Vessel, so Honor could temporarily pull some shenanigans with the power outside the level of thing that would be normally an option, like Vin killing both herself and Ruin in direct opposition to Preservation's Intent.

Also some of Rayse's success may have been from his knowledge of who his fellow Vessels were, something not really relevant with a new Honor. Among other factors.

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ]

Ok

[Duxredux]

On 6/17/2023 at 3:44 AM, Invocation said:

That would still be a could, just not a particularly effective one. But it also might not be as much of an issue as you'd assume, because (Hero of Ages spoilers)

  Hide contents

it takes a while for the power of a Shard to completely seep through a Vessel, so Honor could temporarily pull some shenanigans with the power outside the level of thing that would be normally an option, like Vin killing both herself and Ruin in direct opposition to Preservation's Intent.

Also some of Rayse's success may have been from his knowledge of who his fellow Vessels were, something not really relevant with a new Honor. Among other factors.

That's debatable to me, though we haven't had many Shard viewpoints.

Spoiler

Intent is fundamental, and Preservation totally is fine sacrificing itself to preserve something else. Give up your mind to seal Ruin away? Sure. Give out chunks of essence to help people survive? Fine. Melt the flesh off people's bones so that you can transform them into long-lived resiliant kandra? Go ahead. Kill Kwaan to protect your secrets? That's a big no-no. Kill Ruin for Vengeance? Didn't work for Kelsier, the power wouldn't obey. Protect humanity in giant exploding suicide body slam into Ruin? Apparently it worked for Vin, but I think her Intent allowed her to do it, not that she was able to override the restrictions on Preservation's power.

I agree about Rayse's foreknowledge regarding other Vessels and particularly his knowledge of what it took to kill Adonalsium. I suspect that Rayse had a unique ability or position that made him indispensible for the Shattering otherwise the others would have worked reaaaaally hard to not give him access to this much power, since they seem to have known what kind of man he was.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Duxredux
clarity

[+Invocation]

On 6/18/2023 at 10:37 AM, Duxredux said:

That's debatable to me, though we haven't had many Shard viewpoints.

You know what, that's fair. It could go either way, or a different way entirely for all I know.

On 6/18/2023 at 10:37 AM, Duxredux said:

I agree about Rayse's foreknowledge regarding other Vessels and particularly his knowledge of what it took to kill Adonalsium. I suspect that Rayse had a unique ability or position that made him indispensible for the Shattering otherwise the others would have worked reaaaaally hard to not give him access to this much power, since they seem to have known what kind of man he was.

Yeah that really doesn't seem to have been their best choice. Surely there had to be better candidates somehow. If not, I will make fun of the original 16 (and Hoid) a lot when Dragonsteel releases.

[ftl]

1 hour ago, Invocation said:

You know what, that's fair. It could go either way, or a different way entirely for all I know.

Yeah that really doesn't seem to have been their best choice. Surely there had to be better candidates somehow. If not, I will make fun of the original 16 (and Hoid) a lot when Dragonsteel releases.

I strongly suspect that the original 16+1 had no idea what they were getting into with this Shard business! My guess is that they were focused on breaking up Adonalsium (for whatever reason) and then handing out Shards was an "oh rust we actually succeeded, but this power is still here and we have to do something with it, what now???" sort of thing. If I had to guess, I would guess they had very little idea what would happen if they actually made their plan work.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, ftl said:

I strongly suspect that the original 16+1 had no idea what they were getting into with this Shard business! My guess is that they were focused on breaking up Adonalsium (for whatever reason) and then handing out Shards was an "oh rust we actually succeeded, but this power is still here and we have to do something with it, what now???" sort of thing. If I had to guess, I would guess they had very little idea what would happen if they actually made their plan work.

I think that's not the case based on those WoBs:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Brandon said offhandedly, "It is not random who got which Shard." Also, Shards very rarely change hands. Brandon emphasized the "very" there.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

 

Spoiler

senjox

We've seen in both Secret History and RoW that a Shard's power has a will of its own and can "reject" a vessel if it's not adequate (like Preservation with Kelsier) and "tempt" if it is (like Odium with Taravangian). Does that mean that the first sixteen that Ascended needed to be fit for their respective shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. To an extent, yes. It was a little easier back then, but yes.

*Thinks for a while*

Yes. So, why am I hesitating on this? Not all of the sixteen could've taken any one of the sixteen. So not all the Vessels could take any of the sixteen. But the flexibility of which ones they could've taken, was much greater than you're perhaps anticipating right now. There were certain Shards that they had, they deliberately had a person pick up, that they thought would be a better controller of that Shard, if that makes sense. Rather than picking the person who is the best match. So, there you go.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

Spoiler

harsh20483

Leras mentioned something like Cephandrius had the choice/chance to take up a Shard but declined. So was the Shattering an event that was predicted to happen so that people like Leras, Ati, Rayse, etc to be present at that time to pick up the Shards after the Shattering.

Brandon Sanderson

There's more to it than that, but some of what you say is close.

General Reddit 2016 (Dec. 6, 2016)

Mistborn SH spoilers:

Spoiler

Khriss said some of 16 participated in the Shattering because they desired power.

 

[ftl]

I don't really see anything in those WoBs that's strong evidence against my guess?

Yes, it makes sense that it's not random who got which Shard, though it could have gone a few different ways. Certainly reasonable that some people participated in the shattering because they wanted power (possibly Rayse). But I still think it's quite likely that they really didn't know how all this would work after they succeeded - generically wanting power isn't the same as knowing how Shard mechanics would work.

E.g. if they knew, it's likely that Ati would have done more to defang the shard of Ruin, they wouldn't have given Rayse Odium (and might have splintered a few of the Shards immediately after handing them out, and so on.)

I suppose mainly I should soften my words - I don't really mean to claim that the original sixteen knew literally nothing, just... not very much, I'm still guessing we should think of what happened as the sixteen+1 "making do with what happened in the aftermath" rather than "aha, exactly as planned."

Sort of like in Mistborn,

Spoiler

that first year after killing the lord ruler. Yeah, the crew wanted to kill TLR... but they'd barely given any thought at all to actually governing the place, ended up relying on Elend to make up a government as he went, and of course they had no idea what they'd gotten themselves into with the behind-the-scenes fight between Ruin and Preservation. I suspect that when we get to it, the shattering of Adonalsium is going to end up very much like a kill-the-lord-ruler moment - everyone is going to look around afterwards and think "oh rust, what now???"

 

[alder24]

6 hours ago, ftl said:

I don't really see anything in those WoBs that's strong evidence against my guess?

Strong evidence, no. But in my opinion they suggest that Vessels knew Adonalsium will be split into Shards and were somewhat prepared to pick up one of them specifically, more or less. They had enough time to choose a person most fitted for every Shard, to control its power - and that in my opinion means they were prepared for that. And the second to last WoB almost confirms that Vessels were expecting Shards.

6 hours ago, ftl said:

generically wanting power isn't the same as knowing how Shard mechanics would work.

Oh, yes, they for sure didn't know how Shards work. Not fully.

Spoiler

Nameless36

All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that.

Brandon Sanderson

So... they did not make an oath to it. There was a suggestion made... and perhaps the people who made the suggestion did not understand that, if you want the Shards to do something, you need an actual Oath. And they did not get one.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

6 hours ago, ftl said:

E.g. if they knew, it's likely that Ati would have done more to defang the shard of Ruin, they wouldn't have given Rayse Odium (and might have splintered a few of the Shards immediately after handing them out, and so on.)

Well, and what happened to Ambition? She was Splintered, and Endowment approved this. Ati was once a good person, maybe they thought a good person would be the best to control Ruin. Rayse on the other hand wanted to be Odium.

6 hours ago, ftl said:

I suppose mainly I should soften my words - I don't really mean to claim that the original sixteen knew literally nothing, just... not very much, I'm still guessing we should think of what happened as the sixteen+1 "making do with what happened in the aftermath" rather than "aha, exactly as planned."

I think they knew if they would be successful, Adonalsium will be split into 16 Shards, they knew into what Shards, they knew someone fitted is needed to control that power, and maybe they knew Shard's intent would fight against its Vessel. 

6 hours ago, ftl said:

Sort of like in Mistborn,

  Hide contents

that first year after killing the lord ruler. Yeah, the crew wanted to kill TLR... but they'd barely given any thought at all to actually governing the place, ended up relying on Elend to make up a government as he went, and of course they had no idea what they'd gotten themselves into with the behind-the-scenes fight between Ruin and Preservation. I suspect that when we get to it, the shattering of Adonalsium is going to end up very much like a kill-the-lord-ruler moment - everyone is going to look around afterwards and think "oh rust, what now???"

Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

I don't think it's a good comparison. But they knew they would need TLR's Atium reserves. His "power '' which was left by him. With Atium they would buy loyalty of soldiers, and other nobles.