CrystalShadow Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 I was looking at Vin's page on a wikiwalk and saw something. "Sazed also tried to bring her back to life but revealed that merely healing a body didn't return souls." Yet we have have Szeth and his revival. What is this? Heralds more powerful than Shards? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 From my understanding, Nalan revived Szeth very quickly before his soul fled. He notes that had he waited a second later it would have been too late. Sazed just took too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 From my understanding, Nalan revived Szeth very quickly before his soul fled. He notes that had he waited a second later it would have been too late. Sazed just took too long. That's more or less how I interpreted it. I had a small theory a while back about how I believe death propagates itself through the Three Realms - under normal circumstances the body dies first, followed by the mind, followed by the soul (though maybe the soul comes before the mind). Nalan had to catch the moment before Szeth's last aspect, be it mind or soul, was gone - I am going to guess that the soul had to go after the mind, so Szeth's spiritual connections to things like Shardblades would be severed, but his mind, his sense of self, would be intact. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Agreed with the time issue. Vin had been dead for a relative while by the time that Saze got around to healing her body, Szeth was revived almost instantaneously. Makes me wonder about Kaladin and the seeming KR ability heal shardblade wounds. If they didn't have stormlight on them when they were wounded by a Shardblade, would the time delay cause prevent the soul from healing properly there? Kaladin healed immediately from his wound that Szeth gave him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) Agreed with the time issue. Vin had been dead for a relative while by the time that Saze got around to healing her body, Szeth was revived almost instantaneously. Makes me wonder about Kaladin and the seeming KR ability heal shardblade wounds. If they didn't have stormlight on them when they were wounded by a Shardblade, would the time delay cause prevent the soul from healing properly there? Kaladin healed immediately from his wound that Szeth gave him... Kind of ironic. Sazed wanted to give Vin and Elend only a little well deserved rest but ended up letting them die for good. The KR healing is mostly cognitive, so I think they can heal the wound as long as they don´t consider it a part of themself and/or unhealable (see the Lopen´s arm and Kaladin´s slave brand for reference). The major difference I can see here is that the cognitive aspect doesn´t decay as long as the person is still alive. A corpse however has no real sense of self as something living and as such can´t ressurect itself. (On that note the fain memory they have of being alive is most likely involved in what the Bloodsealer in tes does.) Actually how does awakening a corpse play into all of this? Brandon said that they are more aware than we give them credit for, even to the point that he may give one a viewpoint, but they are most certainly dead before someone awakens them. And while I´m at it, can cognitive healing such as Stormlight or gold Feruchemy be used while unconscious. Edited July 2, 2014 by Edgedancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Maybe its something like this.... Ehem. "I am a corpse." 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Kind of ironic. Sazed wanted to give Vin and Elend only a little well deserved rest but ended up letting them die for good. The KR healing is mostly cognitive, so I think they can heal the wound as long as they don´t consider it a part of themself and/or unhealable (see the Lopen´s arm and Kaladin´s slave brand for reference). The major difference I can see here is that the cognitive aspect doesn´t decay as long as the person is still alive. A corpse however has no real sense of self as something living and as such can´t ressurect itself. (On that note the fain memory they have of being alive is most likely involved in what the Bloodsealer in tes does.) Actually how does awakening a corpse play into all of this? Brandon said that they are more aware than we give them credit for, even to the point that he may give one a viewpoint, but they are most certainly dead before someone awakens them. And while I´m at it, can cognitive healing such as Stormlight or gold Feruchemy be used while unconscious. All healing that we have seen thus far is cognitive to some degree, but with Shardblade wounds it is cutting the soul and that needs to be repaired to heal. I just don't know if a time delay makes that wound more permanent than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 The way i understood it, szeth never really died. the heart stopped beating, the body shut down, but the brain still remain functional for a few minutes. It's the magical equivalent of reviving him with a cardiac massage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terisen Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) That's more or less how I interpreted it. I had a small theory a while back about how I believe death propagates itself through the Three Realms - under normal circumstances the body dies first, followed by the mind, followed by the soul (though maybe the soul comes before the mind). Nalan had to catch the moment before Szeth's last aspect, be it mind or soul, was gone - I am going to guess that the soul had to go after the mind, so Szeth's spiritual connections to things like Shardblades would be severed, but his mind, his sense of self, would be intact. This is actually very interesting to me. Certainly would explain what Nalan meant when he told Szeth that he could be reborn. 2/3rds of him, in fact, had been reborn quite literally. "You did, and you died. Your bond to your Blade severed, all ties - both spiritual and physical - undone. You are reborn." Yep, there it is right there. Spiritual and physical. Edited July 2, 2014 by Terisen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggai Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 This is actually very interesting to me. Certainly would explain what Nalan meant when he told Szeth that he could be reborn. 2/3rds of him, in fact, had been reborn quite literally. Yep, there it is right there. Spiritual and physical. Interesting. The Cognitive aspect of a person is apparently more important than the Spiritual aspect. I didn't expect that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Interesting. The Cognitive aspect of a person is apparently more important than the Spiritual aspect. I didn't expect that. My personal theory is that, since the Shardblade attacks the soul of the object, that's the reason it died first, and why he could be revived. There was no damage physically (I'm assuming Nalan did some Gravitation tricks when Szeth fell) and the body was still viable, so he was able to spiritually reconnect him. The aspects wouldn't necessarily die in this order in other causes of death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggai Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 My personal theory is that, since the Shardblade attacks the soul of the object, that's the reason it died first, and why he could be revived. There was no damage physically (I'm assuming Nalan did some Gravitation tricks when Szeth fell) and the body was still viable, so he was able to spiritually reconnect him. The aspects wouldn't necessarily die in this order in other causes of death. True. Still, the Cognitive aspect can apparently entirely recreate the Spiritual, which means a lot. Maybe Regrowth could even repair Hemalurgic damage, if it can do this much. Free powers for everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted July 3, 2014 Report Share Posted July 3, 2014 True. Still, the Cognitive aspect can apparently entirely recreate the Spiritual, which means a lot. Maybe Regrowth could even repair Hemalurgic damage, if it can do this much. Free powers for everyone! interesting consequence possibility. Would it be free powers for all, or would the hemalurgic power ripped from someone's spiritweb "dissolve" like Shardplate does when re-grown from a piece? There is another thread positing that Shardplate is in fact a KR's spiritweb in physical form. If through feeding investiture into it, that is able to reform from a single piece while the rest dissolves, perhaps the portion stolen and stored in a hemalurgic spike would also suffer that fate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggai Posted July 3, 2014 Report Share Posted July 3, 2014 interesting consequence possibility. Would it be free powers for all, or would the hemalurgic power ripped from someone's spiritweb "dissolve" like Shardplate does when re-grown from a piece? There is another thread positing that Shardplate is in fact a KR's spiritweb in physical form. If through feeding investiture into it, that is able to reform from a single piece while the rest dissolves, perhaps the portion stolen and stored in a hemalurgic spike would also suffer that fate? That's a really good question. I personally adhere to the theory that Shardplate is composed of lesser spren bonded to armor, so it dissolves when the lesser spren lose their attachment to the disconnected piece. I think that the Hemalurgic power would not dissolve, since you're using Shardic Investiture to replace it. Investiture overall is conserved, it's just taken from the Shards and moved into people. I wonder if similar methods might be used to destroy or severely weaken a Shard. Maybe one could even forcibly shift holders without killing the previous one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnshard Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 I think all aspects of a person fade at the same time. It takes a while before the brain shuts down completely. The soul and the mind can still be recalled for a few minutes after death. Vin was dead more than 10 minutes after sazed took power. He fixed the planet, the people and also remade everything. Vin and Elend were quite dead at this point. Szeth was not dead very long. Nalan could have still revived him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftucker0525 Posted July 12, 2014 Report Share Posted July 12, 2014 It makes sense to me that you only need a piece of a soul to heal/call back the rest of the soul. So if that small piece of soul is their it can act as a blueprint for the rest of it. When Kaladins spiritual connection to his arm was cut, the remaining pieces of his soul were able to recreate his arms soul. And when someone dies maybe their soul leaks out like sand through an hourglass and as long as one grain of sand (your soul) is still in the top half of the hourglass you can tip the glass over and refill the bottom half, or your body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistdork Posted July 12, 2014 Report Share Posted July 12, 2014 I was looking at Vin's page on a wikiwalk and saw something. "Sazed also tried to bring her back to life but revealed that merely healing a body didn't return souls." Yet we have have Szeth and his revival. What is this? Heralds more powerful than Shards? Don't forget that the reason Sazed could not heal Vin and Elend was that he didn't have the skill to do so, while Nalan knew what he was doing (being millennia old can be helpful in figuring stuff like this out). Endowment Returns dead people. So, it was not just a matter of time, it was also a matter of skill...if Sazed had known how to heal them, he could have done so eventually... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted July 12, 2014 Report Share Posted July 12, 2014 Plus, I don't think Shardblade kills your soul immediately. It seems to be more like cutting a major nerve, except the damage moves across the entire soul, not just from the damage down, and it leaves your body to die. If you heal the body and the soul with ReGrowth, which can probably be done, then immediately piecing together the damaged soul and healing the damage to the body works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 Plus, I don't think Shardblade kills your soul immediately. It seems to be more like cutting a major nerve, except the damage moves across the entire soul, not just from the damage down, and it leaves your body to die. If you heal the body and the soul with ReGrowth, which can probably be done, then immediately piecing together the damaged soul and healing the damage to the body works. I always thought of Shardblade wounds like cutting off the circulation eventually it just dies but if you are quick to react (like Kal) it will heal. However you could cut Hoids head off with a Shardblade but the healing he uses would revive him completely... I think Nalan used a Fabriel on Szeth (while not as perfect) worked a similar way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted July 29, 2014 Report Share Posted July 29, 2014 (edited) In the spirit of my namesake, I'll just drop one little idea and scurry. Nalan has a fabrial of unknown properties, and it has been proven that bringing somebody back from the dead is possible. Harmony has a lot of power, but lacked the experience and finesse at the window of time he needed for it to work. Nalan is old, and has enough XP to be maximum level by this point. I'm guessing he'd be able to take what he had and work it into resurrection far better than Harmony could in the moment. It's not so much that Nalan has something Harmony doesn't in terms of power, he just knew how to use what he had at the moment when it mattered. EDIT: So basically, to sum it up less confusingly, Szeth might have actually died all the way, Nalan just knew enough about what he had available to bring him back, whereas Sazed was too inexperienced to do the same. Edited July 29, 2014 by Observer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erai Sedai Posted July 29, 2014 Report Share Posted July 29, 2014 I too would've jumped to the time issue conclusion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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