Awakeners strengths?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

For those who don't follow Warbreaker forums this is a continuation of a discussion I was having with @alder24 found here: 

if you poured investiture into a sword without awakening it would it still cur through things - Warbreaker - 17th Shard, the Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite

 

@alder24 in an attempt to stop myself from posting spoilers and end the need to tag things I wanted to just move over here. I will throw a quote from your last post over on that thread.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

18 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I have long tried to picture Vasher's falling and the clothing absorbing the impact.  Some parts of my mind picture the lengths of cloth extending outward underneath him creating almost a spring as he lands.  Do you believe it simply added magical structure and support?  

More like a spring around his leg, absorbing energy. It won't help you if you fall from too high, but on some moderate heights it would work well, Warbreaker ch 56

Quote

“Your Breath to mine,” he yelled as his momentum slowed. The rope dropped free and he landed on the first block. “Become as my leg and give it strength!” he Commanded, drawing color from the blood on his chest. The rope twisted down, wrapping around his leg and foot as he leaped off. He landed on the next block, one foot down, the coiled rope—and its strange, inhuman muscles—bearing the brunt of the shock.
Four hops and he hit the ground. A group of soldiers stood amidst some bodies at the front gates, looking confused. Vasher barreled toward them, colorless translucent blood dropping from his skin as he drew his Breath back from the rope.

 

18 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I don't recall how far he fell but we all know I am a sucker for cool landings.  Do you think that the awakened leggins would have been able to absorb enough energy to protect him from terminal velocity+?

No, that's lethal even for him.

18 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If Szeth were to lash him straight up and he fell to the ground a minute later or whatever do you suppose Vasher's awakened clothing would protect him? 

Unlikely. Unless he has a very long rope that he can use like a spring, under him, not on his legs.

18 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you think he would end up combining it somehow with some newly awakened pseudo parachute?  

He doesn't have a parachute, nor his clothes would provide enough material to make one.

18 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you think he could survive a fall from Luthadels wall?  Vin cleared it one time I know but she was blessed with steel to pad her landing.  Do you think strengthened leggings could hold a person together from that height?  

How tall were they? Around 30 feet tall, 10 meters? Yes, he can.

18 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I know its all speculation but I like hearing other peoples thoughts on it. 

You ask a loooot of speculative questions  

18 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

How much strength do you think awakened clothing could add?  Do you think it pulls tighter on the skin or simply allows one to lift more while maintaining its typical fit on the body?  

Both. Awakened clothes are so strong that they can throw people into the wall, Warbreaker ch 51:

Quote

He grabbed his attacker by the face with one of his arm tassels, then twisted the man back and threw him into the wall. Another figured charged him from behind, but Vasher’s Awakened cloak caught that one, tripping him.

ch 53:

Quote

“Upon call,” she Commanded, “become my fingers and grip that which I must.” She’d only heard Vasher give the Command a couple of times, and she still wasn’t quite sure how to visualize what she wanted the shirt to do. She imagined the tassels closing around her hands as she had seen them do for Vasher.
She Awakened the leggings, commanding them to strengthen her legs. The leg tassels began to twist, and she raised each foot in turn, letting the tassels wrap around the bottoms. Her stance felt firmer, the leggings pulled tight against her skin.

ch 55:

Quote

She twitched her fingers, making the tassels on her sleeves clench and unclench. Then she jumped, her Awakened leggings tossing her up a few extra feet. She reached up and made the tassels grab the edge of the large, black block. The tassels just barely held, gripping the stone like footlong fingers. With difficulty, Vivenna pulled herself up onto the block.

ch 49:

Quote

Another man attacked, and Vasher spun, whipping out a hand. The tassels on his sleeve moved on their own, wrapping around the blade of the thief’s sword, catching it. Vasher’s momentum ripped the blade free, and he tossed it aside, the tassels releasing it.
The sword hit the dirt of the cellar floor; Vasher’s hand snapped up, grabbing the thief’s face. The tassels wrapped around the man’s head like a squid’s tentacles. Vasher slammed the man backward and down into the ground— kneeling as he did to add momentum—even as he rammed the sheathed Nightblood into another man’s legs, dropping him. A third tried to cut Vasher from behind, and Vivenna cried a warning. Vasher’s cloak, however, suddenly whipped out—moving on its own—and grabbed the surprised man by the arms.

My explanation of this is (aligning with the WoB saying that Awakening doesn't give any extra strength) if a piece of fabric can normally hold a person's weight, it can also throw him, hold him, add strength etc when Awaken. If your clothes, ropes, fabrics etc can normally hold your weight, then Awakening will make them work without tearing.

But the Awakened material has so much strength, that a single thread can twist metal mechanism of a lock, which I think is a lot from a thread, too much to work with this idea, ch 49:

Quote

Instead she pulled a thread free from her shirt, trying to ignore the cries of pain from behind [...]

“Twist things,” she said, feeling the Breath leave her. She stuck the thread into the lock. It spun about, and she heard a click. The door opened. 

 

All of the WoBs that you have provided make me think I have been guilty of underestimating the strength of awakeners while also prompting me to ask some more questions... of course. 

While a fabric or awakened item can perform to its peak without breaking do you think the anchors it may be attached to would be at risk of breaking?  In the case of Vasher using the clothing to throw people we dont see his arms breaking as a result of having the shirt tassels attached to them but do you think there is a limit to that? 

I found some 3/8" nylon rope with a tensile strength of 2300 lbs. If a suit of shardplate is roughly 1400lbs (according to the coppermind) then that rope being used from an awakening standpoint should be able to latch onto a shardbearer and toss them in thier plate the same as the humans were thrown with the cloth yeah?  We also saw in Warbreaker that people would be crushed by awakened cloth. This same rope could likely take a few hundred breaths and crush the suit of plate? Certainly restrain the wearer for some eye slot stabby stabby.

Also the cloth caught a sword by the blade! With breaths being able to be funneled into the rope at a much higher rate, the disarming of shardblades becomes a highly probable and effective option. Not for living sprenblades but anyone who is limited to a 10 heartbeat resummon time this could be the end of it all! 

After looking at these things I have to imagine that Vasher would have straight up murdered all 4 of the shardbearers in the arena fight had he chosen to aid Adolin. 

I don't think awakening can necessarily deal with Surges without going down crazy speculation rabbit holes but I do think that from a purely physical ability (speed aside) it may be the strongest magic in the cosmere. You are literally only limited by the strength of the materials you are able to awaken and even those are protected from things like shardblades when enough breath is stored into them (in addition to the breaths needed to awaken the item). I wont be crazy and say a fullborn couldnt take Vasher out, but I have new respect for the awakeners and their place in the cosmere. Even simple technological advancements in better rope are going to add up to them being scary strong.  

This will need to be a rule or tip in the hitchhiker's guide to the cosmere... don't try grappling a dude wearing baggy clothes or rope.

[alder24]

14 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

All of the WoBs that you have provided make me think I have been guilty of underestimating the strength of awakeners while also prompting me to ask some more questions... of course. 

What have I done?

15 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

While a fabric or awakened item can perform to its peak without breaking do you think the anchors it may be attached to would be at risk of breaking?  In the case of Vasher using the clothing to throw people we dont see his arms breaking as a result of having the shirt tassels attached to them but do you think there is a limit to that? 

Yes, if he wants to get lifted by a rope attached to a stone thing barely holding itself to a wall, then that stone thing will break.

16 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I found some 3/8" nylon rope with a tensile strength of 2300 lbs

Nylon is synthetic (I think), it would be very hard to Awaken, like stone.

18 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I found some 3/8" nylon rope with a tensile strength of 2300 lbs. If a suit of shardplate is roughly 1400lbs (according to the coppermind) then that rope being used from an awakening standpoint should be able to latch onto a shardbearer and toss them in thier plate the same as the humans were thrown with the cloth yeah?

If this is how tensile strength works then yes.

18 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

We also saw in Warbreaker that people would be crushed by awakened cloth. This same rope could likely take a few hundred breaths and crush the suit of plate? Certainly restrain the wearer for some eye slot stabby stabby.

No, the human body is squishy, metal plate armor is not. A Shardplate gives something like 20x more strength, if you could find a rope that would withstand that, then yes, you can restrain them. Technically, in SA they throw ropes at Shardbearers, so regular thick and strong ropes should still do the job and restrain their arms/legs.

21 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Also the cloth caught a sword by the blade!

Yes. And stop an arm while swinging. And catch an arrow mid flight, which is an impossible feat.

22 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

With breaths being able to be funneled into the rope at a much higher rate, the disarming of shardblades becomes a highly probable and effective option. Not for living sprenblades but anyone who is limited to a 10 heartbeat resummon time this could be the end of it all! 

Yes, but you have to invest them so much for them to resist being cut. More than Vasher used in his fight against Kal.

23 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

After looking at these things I have to imagine that Vasher would have straight up murdered all 4 of the shardbearers in the arena fight had he chosen to aid Adolin. 

I doubt it. We don't know how many Breaths he has, more than 50 that's sure, but likely in low hundreds. Not much. He might not have his clothes there too. But give him lots of Breaths and time to prepare, then maybe. But he don't want to get killed, so why would he care?

25 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I don't think awakening can necessarily deal with Surges without going down crazy speculation rabbit holes but I do think that from a purely physical ability (speed aside) it may be the strongest magic in the cosmere.

F-pewter would like to have a word with you.

26 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I don't think awakening can necessarily deal with Surges without going down crazy speculation rabbit holes but I do think that from a purely physical ability (speed aside) it may be the strongest magic in the cosmere. You are literally only limited by the strength of the materials you are able to awaken and even those are protected from things like shardblades when enough breath is stored into them (in addition to the breaths needed to awaken the item). I wont be crazy and say a fullborn couldnt take Vasher out, but I have new respect for the awakeners and their place in the cosmere. Even simple technological advancements in better rope are going to add up to them being scary strong.  

That's why I like Awakening. It has cool rules and restrictions, but so many possibilities that your imagination is the most restrictive part of it. I wish we have more Awakening in Cosmere, more Nalthis.

[Quantus]

Im just going to dive in, I scanned the other thread but I apologize if I missed something you've already covered.

35 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

While a fabric or awakened item can perform to its peak without breaking do you think the anchors it may be attached to would be at risk of breaking?  In the case of Vasher using the clothing to throw people we dont see his arms breaking as a result of having the shirt tassels attached to them but do you think there is a limit to that? 

Keep in mind that he's a secret Returned, he might have been juicing from other sources than pure Awakening.  From a physics standpoint the cloth just has to establish it's own base support that bypasses the skeleton, so a onesie with attached legs and feet would actually be tactically superior.  

Quote

I found some 3/8" nylon rope with a tensile strength of 2300 lbs. If a suit of shardplate is roughly 1400lbs (according to the coppermind) then that rope being used from an awakening standpoint should be able to latch onto a shardbearer and toss them in thier plate the same as the humans were thrown with the cloth yeah?  We also saw in Warbreaker that people would be crushed by awakened cloth. This same rope could likely take a few hundred breaths and crush the suit of plate? Certainly restrain the wearer for some eye slot stabby stabby.

That's static weight (plus a bunch of factor of unadvertised safety), but the stress on the rope will start increasing pretty dramatically once it's getting swung around at any speed (see all the online spiderman swing math).  That being said, it wouldnt be the first time the Cosmere had natural non-earth materials for dramatic effect, and super-rope is downright traditional.  But even within those material burst limits, there's still a lot of force that could be brought to bear for crushing things, etc. especially if it's layering up.  Then it's down to whether the shardplate strength increases would let them hulk-flex out of the ropes. 

I'd probably attack the cracks, snake the ropes inside, and go after the gems.  

Quote

Also the cloth caught a sword by the blade! With breaths being able to be funneled into the rope at a much higher rate, the disarming of shardblades becomes a highly probable and effective option. Not for living sprenblades but anyone who is limited to a 10 heartbeat resummon time this could be the end of it all! 

After looking at these things I have to imagine that Vasher would have straight up murdered all 4 of the shardbearers in the arena fight had he chosen to aid Adolin. 

Agreed, though that's Vasher, the immortal swordmaster and secret Returned, not just any old awakener. 

 

 EDIT: Frankly I think he could have defeated most of those yahoo's without needing much awakening, based purely on that WOB placing all the immortal swordsman above even Adolin as one of the best of the current generation. And he knows every tiny strength and weakness of all the Forms those boys used.  And he can tap some of his Returned capabilities without fully revealing his Returned height glory**.   The question isnt whether he'd win, it's how much he'd have to show the crowd to do it.  I dont think he'd have needed awakening any more than Kaladin needed his own blade and plate.  

**So, The Returned are all big and tall, but that was a Nalthian 7ft.  Size-wise, would they even stand out around Alethi?

Quote

I don't think awakening can necessarily deal with Surges without going down crazy speculation rabbit holes but I do think that from a purely physical ability (speed aside) it may be the strongest magic in the cosmere. You are literally only limited by the strength of the materials you are able to awaken and even those are protected from things like shardblades when enough breath is stored into them (in addition to the breaths needed to awaken the item). I wont be crazy and say a fullborn couldnt take Vasher out, but I have new respect for the awakeners and their place in the cosmere. Even simple technological advancements in better rope are going to add up to them being scary strong.  

This will need to be a rule or tip in the hitchhiker's guide to the cosmere... don't try grappling a dude wearing baggy clothes or rope.

I dont disagree, but now that we have memory storage confirmed, I have to wonder what other Cognitive and/or Spiritual effects it can pull off.  Nightblood's Connection to Ruin (or at least that theory on his function) implies Commands can be used to forge Connections, and that alone opens a boatload of diverse possibilities.  If they can also be Commanded to modify exisitng Connections, that's big chunk of the Bondsmith's concerning power-suite.  

Edited May 26, 2023 by Quantus

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, if he wants to get lifted by a rope attached to a stone thing barely holding itself to a wall, then that stone thing will break.

That makes sense.  On the inverse. If I have a rope capable of lifting 2000lbs wrapped around my arms will my arms be supporting any of that weight or would it just feel like lifting the weight of the rope alone?  Would the rope protect my arms from needing to hold any of that weight even if I am sort of the anchor point?  

I am caught on the idea that weight matters for allomantic steel and iron. Would a rope awakened around my arms and commanded to pick up a 1000lb rock really pick it up or would it lift me up instead?  

I am very much leaning towards the rope tossing the rock (or shardbearer) as Vasher doesn't describe needing to adjust his stance at all when tossing similarly sized humans with awakened cloth.  (At least I don't remember his balance being shaken). 

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

F-pewter would like to have a word with you.

I knew F pewter would be mentioned.  I think that awakening thicker and stronger rope allows for more strength than F pewter turned to the max... the rope will always allow you to move normally!  

By that I really mean that going up in thickness and strength in rope will add more strength for less immobility that F pewter.  Just my thoughts and as always I am open to my mind being changed.  

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes. And stop an arm while swinging. And catch an arrow mid flight, which is an impossible feat.

Yeah.  I am always trying to think how other magics can deal with plate!  It is my least favorite part of the cosmere while at the same time being one of my favorite parts because it makes me think! 

Perhaps a massive monkey fist... or even smaller ones.  

I feel like awakening could likely produce some mass of flail like tenticals that batter down against plate with more force than even a gang of parshendi in warforms with hammers.  If all of this works it would be totally possible to awaken a flexible extention to hands that we see in warbreaker and have 2 long extensions of arms both swinging shardhammers.  (Or that sweet sweet squad of empty cloth suits.)  

18 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I dont disagree, but now that we have memory storage confirmed, I have to wonder what other Cognitive and/or Spiritual effects it can pull off.  Nightblood's Connection to Ruin (or at least that theory on his function) implies Commands can be used to forge Connections, and that alone opens a boatload of diverse possibilities.  If they can also be Commanded to modify exisitng Connections, that's big chunk of the Bondsmith's concerning power-suite. 

You know this makes me curious about the implications of command breaking at 8th heightening. Could this be a precursor to awakening not only making connections but also potentially severing them?  

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

That makes sense.  On the inverse. If I have a rope capable of lifting 2000lbs wrapped around my arms will my arms be supporting any of that weight or would it just feel like lifting the weight of the rope alone?  Would the rope protect my arms from needing to hold any of that weight even if I am sort of the anchor point?  

What? That would be illogical. Where would that weight go? It's like asking if a rope can hold a rock and then throwing by levitating in the air. Your arms will have to withstand 900 kg for you to hold that rock or something. Which is something that won't happen. You are the anchor point. Physics still works.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I am caught on the idea that weight matters for allomantic steel and iron. Would a rope awakened around my arms and commanded to pick up a 1000lb rock really pick it up or would it lift me up instead?  

If it can pick it up, if it is strong enough it will pick it up, But your bones would snap under 450 kg, arms would be ripped off your joint, and you would just collapse under that weight. Unless you're some kind of strongman that can hold that much weight.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I am very much leaning towards the rope tossing the rock (or shardbearer) as Vasher doesn't describe needing to adjust his stance at all when tossing similarly sized humans with awakened cloth.  (At least I don't remember his balance being shaken). 

That human didn't weigh 900 kg. And his shirt was anchored along his whole body. You can push a person into a wall without losing balance. That was basically it.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I knew F pewter would be mentioned.  I think that awakening thicker and stronger rope allows for more strength than F pewter turned to the max... the rope will always allow you to move normally!  

F-pewter doesn't really have an upper limit so no.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

By that I really mean that going up in thickness and strength in rope will add more strength for less immobility that F pewter.  Just my thoughts and as always I am open to my mind being changed.  

Tying yourself tightly in thick ropes will prevent your joints from bending. At best you'll end up with the same result.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Yeah.  I am always trying to think how other magics can deal with plate!  It is my least favorite part of the cosmere while at the same time being one of my favorite parts because it makes me think! 

Perhaps a massive monkey fist... or even smaller ones.  

I feel like awakening could likely produce some mass of flail like tenticals that batter down against plate with more force than even a gang of parshendi in warforms with hammers.  If all of this works it would be totally possible to awaken a flexible extention to hands that we see in warbreaker and have 2 long extensions of arms both swinging shardhammers.  (Or that sweet sweet squad of empty cloth suits.)  

Shardplates? Awakened ropes throwing rocks at them. You don't even need them to be attached to you, just Command them to find a rock, brace with the ground or another rock, throw it into a Shardbearer and repeat. It can just do it by itself. Throw dozens of them and they will crawl around searching for rock and throwing them at a Shardbearer.

On a smaller scale, Awakened slingshots throwing smaller rocks - those used by Parshendi were very effective against a Shardplate. You can Awaken your Mistcloak-like cloak and make stripes pick up rocks from the ground throwing them at a Shardbearer.

If it is a dead plate - Lifeless bugs with diamond tipped mandibles, crawling under the plate, finding gems and breaking them, or eating eyes of the bearer, eating into the brain killing them. Also you can use Lifeless poisoned scorpion which would stab them poisoning them and things like that.

The same bugs can be used on a living plate, just crack or break one section of the plate and throw bugs at them, they will crawl under and start eating their flesh or find spheres and break them. It will not immediately kill Radiant, but will start draining them out of light.

Throwing Awakened ropes to bind their hands and arms.

Your idea, Awakened sleeves holding rocks like a warhammer.

Combine all of this and maybe you will overwhelm a Shardbearer or even Radiant.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

You know this makes me curious about the implications of command breaking at 8th heightening. Could this be a precursor to awakening not only making connections but also potentially severing them?  

Command Breaking is similar to Unmaking and emotional Allomancy (somewhat). Because of that I wouldn’t be surprised if you could mess up a spren with that, or establish hemalurgic control over hemalurgic constructs like Koloss.

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

1. On a scale of 1 to 10, how similar are the processes of Command-Breaking a Lifeless and Unmaking?

2. Is there more going on behind the scenes when an Allomancer burns pewter? I suspect that the process triggers a "mind over matter" state, where the user's desires are made manifest, albeit in a limited way. If so, can a pewter burner alter their Physical appearance, similar to a Returned (provided they knew they could and had access to enough pewter)?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

1. 7 they are similar

2a. That is a valid theory. On the right track. 

2b. Possible in theory

FanX 2022 (Sept. 22, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

I have a question about emotional Allomancy and ways it can affect things that aren't from Scadrial. Specifically, I had a conversation about what it would do to Lifeless.

Brandon Sanderson

Emotional Allomancy would have a more compelling effect on Lifeless than on a regular person.

Questioner

Like breaking Lifeless with Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh... to break Lifeless. This... I'll RAFO that for now, just because the actual details there I'm gonna RAFO. So, you're really asking, "Can emotional Allomancy bring back the person behind the Lifeless," and that I'll have to RAFO.

Questioner

I meant like breaking the Command.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, breaking the command of a Lifeless. Ohhhh... I'll still RAFO that. *laughter and applause from audience* That's not nearly as difficult a question, but yeah... I would say if you're doing that in a roleplaying game, I would call that a viable use of the magic as currently understood. So you could make that happen and have my authority to do it.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

 

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

**So, The Returned are all big and tall, but that was a Nalthian 7ft.  Size-wise, would they even stand out around Alethi?

Returned can change their height. If they want of course.

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

I dont disagree, but now that we have memory storage confirmed, I have to wonder what other Cognitive and/or Spiritual effects it can pull off.  Nightblood's Connection to Ruin (or at least that theory on his function) implies Commands can be used to forge Connections, and that alone opens a boatload of diverse possibilities.  If they can also be Commanded to modify exisitng Connections, that's big chunk of the Bondsmith's concerning power-suite.  

That's a very good point. 

TotES Spoilers:

Spoiler

Awakening DO work on Connection and Identity, Fort's tablet is Awakened and keyed to his Identity (nobody else can use it), and Connected to him. It is also using some form of suggestions, as it suggests Fort words he can tap next - maybe a bit of Fortune too?

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

What? That would be illogical. Where would that weight go? It's like asking if a rope can hold a rock and then throwing by levitating in the air. Your arms will have to withstand 900 kg for you to hold that rock or something. Which is something that won't happen. You are the anchor point. Physics still works.

If it can pick it up, if it is strong enough it will pick it up, But your bones would snap under 450 kg, arms would be ripped off your joint, and you would just collapse under that weight. Unless you're some kind of strongman that can hold that much weight.

That human didn't weigh 900 kg. And his shirt was anchored along his whole body. You can push a person into a wall without losing balance. That was basically it.

F-pewter doesn't really have an upper limit so no.

Tying yourself tightly in thick ropes will prevent your joints from bending. At best you'll end up with the same result.

Shardplates? Awakened ropes throwing rocks at them. You don't even need them to be attached to you, just Command them to find a rock, brace with the ground or another rock, throw it into a Shardbearer and repeat. It can just do it by itself. Throw dozens of them and they will crawl around searching for rock and throwing them at a Shardbearer.

On a smaller scale, Awakened slingshots throwing smaller rocks - those used by Parshendi were very effective against a Shardplate. You can Awaken your Mistcloak-like cloak and make stripes pick up rocks from the ground throwing them at a Shardbearer.

If it is a dead plate - Lifeless bugs with diamond tipped mandibles, crawling under the plate, finding gems and breaking them, or eating eyes of the bearer, eating into the brain killing them. Also you can use Lifeless poisoned scorpion which would stab them poisoning them and things like that.

The same bugs can be used on a living plate, just crack or break one section of the plate and throw bugs at them, they will crawl under and start eating their flesh or find spheres and break them. It will not immediately kill Radiant, but will start draining them out of light.

Throwing Awakened ropes to bind their hands and arms.

Your idea, Awakened sleeves holding rocks like a warhammer.

Combine all of this and maybe you will overwhelm a Shardbearer or even Radiant.

Command Breaking is similar to Unmaking and emotional Allomancy (somewhat). Because of that I wouldn’t be surprised if you could mess up a spren with that, or establish hemalurgic control over hemalurgic constructs like Koloss.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner (paraphrased)

1. On a scale of 1 to 10, how similar are the processes of Command-Breaking a Lifeless and Unmaking?

2. Is there more going on behind the scenes when an Allomancer burns pewter? I suspect that the process triggers a "mind over matter" state, where the user's desires are made manifest, albeit in a limited way. If so, can a pewter burner alter their Physical appearance, similar to a Returned (provided they knew they could and had access to enough pewter)?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

1. 7 they are similar

2a. That is a valid theory. On the right track. 

2b. Possible in theory

FanX 2022 (Sept. 22, 2022)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

I have a question about emotional Allomancy and ways it can affect things that aren't from Scadrial. Specifically, I had a conversation about what it would do to Lifeless.

Brandon Sanderson

Emotional Allomancy would have a more compelling effect on Lifeless than on a regular person.

Questioner

Like breaking Lifeless with Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh... to break Lifeless. This... I'll RAFO that for now, just because the actual details there I'm gonna RAFO. So, you're really asking, "Can emotional Allomancy bring back the person behind the Lifeless," and that I'll have to RAFO.

Questioner

I meant like breaking the Command.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, breaking the command of a Lifeless. Ohhhh... I'll still RAFO that. *laughter and applause from audience* That's not nearly as difficult a question, but yeah... I would say if you're doing that in a roleplaying game, I would call that a viable use of the magic as currently understood. So you could make that happen and have my authority to do it.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

 

Returned can change their height. If they want of course.

That's a very good point. 

TotES Spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Awakening DO work on Connection and Identity, Fort's tablet is Awakened and keyed to his Identity (nobody else can use it), and Connected to him. It is also using some form of suggestions, as it suggests Fort words he can tap next - maybe a bit of Fortune too?

 

Do you believe that awakened objects are capable of viewing the future at all?  

When vivenas cloak catches an arrow it must know where and when to grab.  Same with the cloth snatching a blade.  

With the correct command do you think awakened slings would anticipate where to sling their projectiles and have a higher accuracy % than a trained slinger?  I don't know how many folks train in catching arrows in mid flight but the cloak did it with 100% accuracy.  

Would the same cloak be capable of performing the last clap?  

I like the idea of archers on atium or slingers on atium.  I almost feel like awakened objects demonstrate a level of fortune on their own to protect the wearers.  Perhaps this is due to the envisioning of protecting from all attacks.  What about viewing in your minds eye the item hitting the target via leading it and shooting where it will be as opposed to where it is?  

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Awakened ropes throwing rocks at them.

This was discussed in Warbreaker Ch 51 (not in reference to Roshar, obviously):

Spoiler

Quote

The belt untied itself, revealing it to be far longer than it looked when wrapped around him. The twenty-five feet of rope snaked up the side of the building, curling inside of a window. Seconds later, the rope hauled Vasher up and into the air. Awakened objects could, if created well, have much more strength than regular muscles. He’d once seen a small group of ropes not much thicker than his own lift and toss boulders at an enemy fortification.

And, in the Annotations to Ch 51:

Quote

In this scene, there are some small hints of what it was like during the Manywar—like people Awakening ropes to toss boulders and things like that. It was a pretty dramatic conflict

 

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Treamayne

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

32 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

This was discussed in Warbreaker Ch 51 (not in reference to Roshar, obviously):

  Hide contents

And, in the Annotations to Ch 51:

 

 

It is done and can be done.  But how accurate do you suppose they are?  I would argue highly accurate.  All of the human error is gone! Vivenna wouldn't have been able to catch that arrow out of thin air but her awakened cloak had to ability to see it coming. Identify it as a thing that needed to be protected from and catch it before it could hit her.  

I imagine awakened objects have a sense that allows them to operate far beyond our ability.  I think awakened ropes throwing boulders might end up being the most accurate ranged ability out there besides soulcasting. Certainly lashed items would be less accurate than coin shots and coinshots still have human error even with enhanced vision of lines on direct paths of travel... but there is no chance at human error.  You tell that rope to throw a Boulder to crush that man over there and I am trying to think how that will be carried out. 

Does the rope throw it at where the man is or will the rope understand where the man is going to be when the rock arrives to the target?  

Against moving targets the awakened slings will either be the most accurate ranged option or the least.  Depends on how all of that breath works.  

[Treamayne]

On 5/26/2023 at 11:44 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Does the rope throw it at where the man is or will the rope understand where the man is going to be when the rock arrives to the target?  

Against moving targets the awakened slings will either be the most accurate ranged option or the least.  Depends on how all of that breath works.

It would all depend on the Command and the Visualization. If the Awakener already understands leading a moving target, and makes that part of the visualization, then the awakened BET3 should be able to do the same.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you believe that awakened objects are capable of viewing the future at all?  

Yyyy, hard to say. Maybe? If you're ara capable:

Spoiler

Questioner

In Awakening an object when you give it the sort of Command like, go get the keys, or something. How does that object perceive the world around it? Since it doesn't have standard human senses, how does it see? How does it touch?

Brandon Sanderson

It is not--

Moderator

Repeat the question.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh… go ahead.

Moderator

The question was, how do Awakened objects actually perceive the world.

Brandon Sanderson

…The closest correlation you have to this is how Inquisitors see.

Questioner

Okay, following up on that say, someone who has-- say someone with bronze who-- a bronze Misting managed to somehow get access to Breath and Awaken would he then be able to tell that object "Hey I sense this Allomancer over there, can you find it".

Brandon Sanderson

That is not outside the realm of possibility.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

When vivenas cloak catches an arrow it must know where and when to grab.  Same with the cloth snatching a blade.  

That's not future sight, that's how they see the world around them, look WoB above, they see it like inquisitors see. The cloak just saw an incoming arrow and caught it.

14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

With the correct command do you think awakened slings would anticipate where to sling their projectiles and have a higher accuracy % than a trained slinger?  I don't know how many folks train in catching arrows in mid flight but the cloak did it with 100% accuracy.  

The cloak caught one arrow. That's not much data. Visualization is the key to it, the better it is, the better are the results.

14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Would the same cloak be capable of performing the last clap?  

If you made a proper visualization, then maybe, but also depending on the material. Fabric might not be "grabby" enough to stop a Shardblade like hands (tbf hands aren;t able to do that as well if the cut was made with normal speed or strength - not enough friction).

14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I like the idea of archers on atium or slingers on atium.  I almost feel like awakened objects demonstrate a level of fortune on their own to protect the wearers.  Perhaps this is due to the envisioning of protecting from all attacks. 

That wasn't fortune. They just see. But archers on Atium would be very deadly.

14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

What about viewing in your minds eye the item hitting the target via leading it and shooting where it will be as opposed to where it is?  

That's how archery works. If your target is moving, you shoot not where he is but where he will be in 1/2 seconds. Fortune/Atium not needed, just proper visualization.

 

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

This was discussed in Warbreaker Ch 51 (not in reference to Roshar, obviously):

Yes, that's what I was talking about, but I didn't bother with finding a quote.

 

9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

It is done and can be done.  But how accurate do you suppose they are?  I would argue highly accurate.  All of the human error is gone!

It depends on your knowledge, visualization and atmospheric conditions. It can be very accurate, but if your visualization is bad, it won't be. Having more Breaths or Returned breath or being a descendant of Returned helps with commands and visualization.

9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Does the rope throw it at where the man is or will the rope understand where the man is going to be when the rock arrives to the target?  

Against moving targets the awakened slings will either be the most accurate ranged option or the least.  Depends on how all of that breath works.  

It sees him. But as said before, it depends on your visualization, you need to include that a rope needs to make a correction for moving targets to hit them accurately, otherwise the rope will throw the rock at a place where the target was when the rope started throwing that rock. This shouldn't be a problem for any logically thinking person, but for someone who has never even thrown anything in his life it might be.

[Duxredux]

Material composition can matter for Awakening strength, so optimizing for that can help with a lot of Awakening feats.

For example (90% not serious), take Awakened cheese golems to combat Shardbearers, assuming a dairy product counts as living adjacent as much as cotton does. Shardbearer stabs or slashes at the golem, the golem "flexes" to immobilize the Shardblade before using a hammer to bash the Shardbearer in all its cheesy glory. You'd need a cheese with a really good rind.

As for near-living incredibly strong material, start looking at the same military applications as spider silk. You might even be able to get away with Rosharan Greatshell carapace. Soulcast items that were previously alive will work too.

One question I have is how high the 1 Breath 1 Lifeless Command scales. I'm guessing that 1 Breath won't let you make a Lifeless Chasmfiend, and though even then it would likely be lacking the necessary spren to allow it to support it's own weight. So you need to make Awakened power armor for your Chasmfiend. What other creatures are worth Awakening and bending to your will? Nightmaws? Would Aviar retain their parasite and still grant a blessing?

Yeah, Awakeners have a lot of flexibility and power at the disposal - so long as they have the Breaths.

[alder24]

50 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

take Awakened cheese golems to combat Shardbearers

Brilliant 

53 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

As for near-living incredibly strong material, start looking at the same military applications as spider silk. You might even be able to get away with Rosharan Greatshell carapace. Soulcast items that were previously alive will work too.

Carapace might be tricky, Shardblade doesn't consider that as a living part, it cuts right through it physically. But in Awakening it should be considered as a living thing.

54 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

One question I have is how high the 1 Breath 1 Lifeless Command scales. I'm guessing that 1 Breath won't let you make a Lifeless Chasmfiend,

I don't see a reason why not. It's mostly about command and visualization. That is what makes 1 Breath Lifeless possible, a proper command. It should apply to a chasmfiend.

56 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

and though even then it would likely be lacking the necessary spren to allow it to support it's own weight.

Yes, that's true. But I think you could substitute that with Breaths, just like Breaths in Kalad's Phantoms created joints in stone, you should be able to give it additional Breaths with command just to uphold the body against its weight. So while you technically have a 1 Breath Lifeless, you have to put hundreds more on top of that one to prevent Chasmfiend from collapsing under its own weight.

Spoiler

DylanHuebner

I was wondering how the animation of the lifeless statues worked, in regard to the use of Susebron's Breath. If they were lifeless, then vasher wouldn't have been able to take his Breath back out of them, nor would susebron have needed such a great deal of breath to revive them—he just would have needed a password. But if they were simply Awakened, no password would have been necessary to animate the statues, just Breath and Command.

It seems like the statues could be neither lifeless nor awakened. Are they unique, because of the use of bone, or am I missing something? The only other explanation I could think of was that they were lifeless, but Susebron's breath wasn't used to activate the statues, he simply had it passed down from vasher, in addition to the statues. If that's the case(and then I've simply been confusing myself with unnecessary, convoluted logic), why was it necessary to keep the breath safe for all these years?

Brandon Sanderson

Wow, there are a lot of questions in there. If you follow the drafts, I think you can see the evolution of what became of the Lifeless army. Originally I had planned for the statues to simply have been placed there so that you could Awaken them—just in my original concepts, before I started the writing—and then that became the army.

I eventually decided that didn't work for various reasons. Number one, as I developed the magic system, Awakening stone doesn't work very well. You've got to have limberness, you've got to have motion to something for it to actually be stronger. So a soldier made out of cloth would be more useful to you than a soldier made out of stone, if you were just Awakening something. At that point, as I was developing this, I went back to the drawing board and said okay, I need to leave him a whole group of really cool Lifeless as the army. But that had problems in that the ichor would not have stayed good long enough. Plus they already had a pretty big Lifeless army, so what was special about this one? Remember, I'm revising concepts like this as the book is going along. You can see where in the story I could see what needed to be there. So I went back to the drawing board again.

I think the original draft of WARBREAKER you can download off my website has them just as statues, though at the time when I was writing that I already knew it would need to change. I was just sticking to my outline because I needed to have the whole thing complete on the page before I could work with it. A lot of times that's how I do things as a writer—I get the rough draft down, and then I begin to sculpt.

I eventually developed essentially what you've just outlined in the first part, before you started worrying if you were too convoluted. I said, well, what if there's a hybrid? What happens if you Awaken bones? Can you create something? The reason that you can't draw the Breath back from a Lifeless is because the Breath clings to it. If the Lifeless were sentient enough, it could give up its own Breath, but you can't take it, just like you can't take a Breath from a person by force. You have to get them to give it up willingly. So it sticks to the Lifeless. A Lifeless is, let's say, 90% of a sentient being. The Breath doesn't manifest in them, because they aren't alive, yet they're almost there. A stone statue brought to life would be way down on the bottom rung.

Is there something in between? That's the advancement I had Vasher discover—what if we build something out of bone, but then encase it in stone to make it strong, and build it in ways that the bone is held together by the force of the Breaths? That's really what you're getting at there, that you need a lot of Breath, a lot of power, to hold all that stone together. There are seams at the joints. What the Breath is doing is clinging there like magical sinew, and it's holding all of that together.

Vasher left the Phantoms Invested with enough Breath to hold them together but not to move. You needed another big, substantial influx of Breath in order to actually make them have motion, to bring them enough strength to move and that sort of thing. So it's kind of a hybrid.

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010)

 

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

What other creatures are worth Awakening and bending to your will? Nightmaws? Would Aviar retain their parasite and still grant a blessing?

Nightmaws should be. But I wonder if their cognitive ability isn't also the result of parasites.

I think Aviars would lose their bond and parasite - they're dead now, parasites need a living host. That would mean no ability.

I wonder if you could make Kandra into a Lifeless and how much spikes would interfere with that. At the very least making Mistwraith into Lifeless should be possible, which would give you a lot of interesting options - Mistwraith are mentally blocked people, they should have brain advanced enough to understand complex commands and you could make and train them to be like Kandra - taking a form of the body they consume. 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

12 hours ago, Duxredux said:

One question I have is how high the 1 Breath 1 Lifeless Command scales. I'm guessing that 1 Breath won't let you make a Lifeless Chasmfiend, and though even then it would likely be lacking the necessary spren to allow it to support it's own weight. So you need to make Awakened power armor for your Chasmfiend. What other creatures are worth Awakening and bending to your will? Nightmaws? Would Aviar retain their parasite and still grant a blessing?

Straight up I think the Larkin lifeless would be awesome.  

Assuming you can command your lifeless to eat would that mean that a larkin lifeless is a leeching fiend waiting for a command?  

Still probably need more breath to replace the spren or gemheart or whatever like @alder24 mentioned.  

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Straight up I think the Larkin lifeless would be awesome.  

Assuming you can command your lifeless to eat would that mean that a larkin lifeless is a leeching fiend waiting for a command?  

Still probably need more breath to replace the spren or gemheart or whatever like @alder24 mentioned.  

I think that's not possible. It's likely that Larkin's ability to leech investiture is either the result of their bond with spren or the result of their sDNA. Breaths won't replicate that. Just like using Mistborn body won't give Lifeless Allomancy:

Spoiler

little wilson

Can a Mistborn turned into a Lifeless still use Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

*long-ish pause* Uh, no.

little wilson

So I would assume that is the same for a Feruchemist?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah if you-- taking some-- Yeah.  No they can't.

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

 

Maybe that would work if you could use Stormlight/Lifelight for Awakening - that might produce sufficient connection to allow for such ability. However for now that's now possible.

[Duxredux]

9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Straight up I think the Larkin lifeless would be awesome.  

Assuming you can command your lifeless to eat would that mean that a larkin lifeless is a leeching fiend waiting for a command?  

I'll add in that even if you did figure out how to get it to consume Investiture, you might only get a couple of leechings before it healed itself and stopped being a Lifeless. Which is cool in itself, but complicates things.

Add that to the list, might be able to make low-grade Returned (or whatever Brandon was implying) once Medallions become more accessible or Scadrial gets more Breaths.

Quote

AndyGranny

If you used a Lifeless body, would a Lifeless be able to access an untapped metalmind...

Brandon Sanderson

An unkeyed type of metalmind?

AndyGranny

Thank you, I could not think of that word. Would they be able to access an unkeyed metalmind if the intent when the Lifeless was created, if the intent was that they could...

Brandon Sanderson

Right, I see what you're getting at. Yes, they could. As they could access and use any tool that is appropriate for what they're Commanded to do, they could indeed access a metalmind in the same way.

In fact, doing so may, depending on the metalmind, be dangerous for keeping your Lifeless a Lifeless.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)