if you poured investiture into a sword without awakening it would it still cur through things

[EthanTheFeruchemist]

so to my knowledge the reason shardblades work is because they are very highly invested and its the same with shardplate, so if you were to pour a high amount of breaths into a sword of cloak without awakening it would it still cut through anything (like nightblood) or block blows (shardplate)

[alder24]

14 minutes ago, EthanTheFeruchemist said:

so to my knowledge the reason shardblades work is because they are very highly invested and its the same with shardplate, so if you were to pour a high amount of breaths into a sword of cloak without awakening it would it still cut through anything (like nightblood) or block blows (shardplate)

This goes a little bit into SA spoilers, I tag it just in case but nothing much is spoiled:

Spoiler

 

It would resist being cut by a Shardblade (investiture resist investiture), but we don't know what makes Shardblade cut. I highly doubt it is just the amount of investiture, I think sentience is needed to cut in all 3 realms.

Spoiler

Questioner

Shardblades cut organic and inorganic matter differently. How would they interact with an animated construct like an Awakened straw man? What about a Lifeless?

Brandon Sanderson

So I walk kind of a fine line here. Something that's animated as a construct, like an Awakened straw man, is likely going to block the Shardblade to some extent, as powerful Investiture would. A Lifeless is probably just gonna act like it was a living being.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

How would an Awakened with Breath piece of cloth react if it got hit with a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

A Shardblade would probably be able to cut it, but it depends on how much Breath we're talking about.

Questioner

So if it had enough, it might be able to block it

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 7, 2018)

Mistborn minor spoilers WoB - WoB confirms that it is more than just a sword shape and lots of investiture that makes Shardblade/Nightblood cuts in all 3 realms:

Spoiler

AugustDream

If you made a sword-shaped nicrosil metalmind, and dumped a lot of unkeyed Investiture into it, could you make a Nightblood-esque Shardblade? And if you actually didn't go to the trouble and just dumped a lot of keyed Investiture into it, would that change the outcome?

Brandon Sanderson

You're getting close to how this type of thing works but you're missing a few things. Keep working on it.

GenCon 2017 (Aug. 17, 2017)

 

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

On 5/11/2023 at 7:42 AM, EthanTheFeruchemist said:

so to my knowledge the reason shardblades work is because they are very highly invested and its the same with shardplate, so if you were to pour a high amount of breaths into a sword of cloak without awakening it would it still cut through anything (like nightblood) or block blows (shardplate)

 

On 5/11/2023 at 8:08 AM, alder24 said:

This goes a little bit into SA spoilers, I tag it just in case but nothing much is spoiled:

  Hide contents

 

It would resist being cut by a Shardblade (investiture resist investiture), but we don't know what makes Shardblade cut. I highly doubt it is just the amount of investiture, I think sentience is needed to cut in all 3 realms.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Shardblades cut organic and inorganic matter differently. How would they interact with an animated construct like an Awakened straw man? What about a Lifeless?

Brandon Sanderson

So I walk kind of a fine line here. Something that's animated as a construct, like an Awakened straw man, is likely going to block the Shardblade to some extent, as powerful Investiture would. A Lifeless is probably just gonna act like it was a living being.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

How would an Awakened with Breath piece of cloth react if it got hit with a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

A Shardblade would probably be able to cut it, but it depends on how much Breath we're talking about.

Questioner

So if it had enough, it might be able to block it

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 7, 2018)

Mistborn minor spoilers WoB - WoB confirms that it is more than just a sword shape and lots of investiture that makes Shardblade/Nightblood cuts in all 3 realms:

  Reveal hidden contents

AugustDream

If you made a sword-shaped nicrosil metalmind, and dumped a lot of unkeyed Investiture into it, could you make a Nightblood-esque Shardblade? And if you actually didn't go to the trouble and just dumped a lot of keyed Investiture into it, would that change the outcome?

Brandon Sanderson

You're getting close to how this type of thing works but you're missing a few things. Keep working on it.

GenCon 2017 (Aug. 17, 2017)

 

 

 

 

 

I really like that cloak.  Beyond sentience I personally believe that that sentience needs to have the intent to cut on all 3 realms, or to destroy entirely in the case of Nightblood.  Every shardblade-ish thing we see has a personality and an entire reason for being and those with the capacity to change their mind about something (very much not Nightblood) are able to do so.  

SA spoilers as well. 

Spoiler

In the battle at the end of Oathbringer Adolin mentions to his sword the realization that the thunderclasts were why she was the way she was.  He talks about how she is not practical for dueling but it makes sense when seeing the thunderclast. If I remember correctly he got a good feeling shortly there after like she was communicating he was correct with that... and then he summoned his blade in just 8 heartbeats the next time he needed her... 

Lift summons a pole stating that her spren doesn't like killing or doesn't want to kill... 

Syl is able to blunt her edge and not cut in the duel against Vasher... she only selectively cuts when needed.  (This answers your other question.  Awakened cloth does not stop shardblades from cutting through it.)

A ton of investiture will allow something that would normally resist a blade to resist a shardblade the same as if the shard were just a blade.  

Leather would be cut the same way leather would be cut by that blade minus the magic.  

Cloth as well. 

This isn't the end of the world... there are materials that you could awaken that would work and help even without the 9th heightening (wooden shields and armor were a thing but not as effective as metal).  You could also skip the awakening and just store a ton of breath into metal before 9th heightening. 

That said we have no idea what happens to breaths when things are cut and if those losses are lessened if there is a command and intent or not. 

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I really like that cloak.  Beyond sentience I personally believe that that sentience needs to have the intent to cut on all 3 realms, or to destroy entirely in the case of Nightblood.  Every shardblade-ish thing we see has a personality and an entire reason for being and those with the capacity to change their mind about something (very much not Nightblood) are able to do so.  

Yes, sentience allows them to choose the intent. Nightblood is different, he also has the Command, which takes over him when drawn out of sheath.

11 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

A ton of investiture will allow something that would normally resist a blade to resist a shardblade the same as if the shard were just a blade.  

Leather would be cut the same way leather would be cut by that blade minus the magic.  

Cloth as well. 

As said in the WoB I posted, it depends on the amounts of Breaths in the cloth, SA spoilers:

Spoiler

The scene in RoW doesn't contradict the WoB. Cloths were Awakened with normal amounts of Breaths, without giving them anything more. But if they were Awakened with more than needed, or a more complex command was given to them, they would have enough Breaths to fully resist being cut by a Shardblade, as the WoB said. The WoB specifically said that an Awakened cloth with enough Breath would be able to block a Shardblade strike. That's because investiture resists investiture, a Shardblade can cut that amount of investiture and even though it is a simple cloth, it will stop it.

Spoiler

Questioner

How would an Awakened with Breath piece of cloth react if it got hit with a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

A Shardblade would probably be able to cut it, but it depends on how much Breath we're talking about.

Questioner

So if it had enough, it might be able to block it

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 7, 2018)

Another WoB tells us that an Awakened object would resist Shardblade cut to some extent. It can either mean that the blade passing through it would met resistance (as even when cutting through a person you feel some resistance) but still can cut if fully, or it would act like a Half-Shard or Shardplate section, being able to take 2 or 3 hits from a Shardblade, before getting cut by it.

Spoiler

Questioner

Shardblades cut organic and inorganic matter differently. How would they interact with an animated construct like an Awakened straw man? What about a Lifeless?

Brandon Sanderson

So I walk kind of a fine line here. Something that's animated as a construct, like an Awakened straw man, is likely going to block the Shardblade to some extent, as powerful Investiture would. A Lifeless is probably just gonna act like it was a living being.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

 

11 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

That said we have no idea what happens to breaths when things are cut and if those losses are lessened if there is a command and intent or not. 

We do know. In Warbreaker an Awakened rope thrown by Vivenna was cut by Denth into two pieces and both of those pieces were still twisting trying to "hold" something, trying to fulfill their command.

Spoiler

little_wilson

Mi'chelle is wanting to know for a fanfic she's wanting to write if when you cut/break an object that has been Awakened if the object then "dies", or if the pieces will try to carry out the command. Also, either way, can the breaths be recovered from it?

Brandon Sanderson

The object does not die, and will try to continue its purpose. The level of damage will determine just how well it can continue. The Breaths are recoverable. (Though there could be some loss of Breaths, depending on how the item is destroyed.) There's a scene near the end where Vasher Awakens some clothing, then it gets cut down and he recovers the Breath.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

In the case of the RoW fight, Vasher was able to retrieve his Breath from cloths cut by a Shardblade. Likely the vast majority of them or even all of them - this we don't know. Kaladin even noted that some cloths cut by him were still bouncing unnaturally, which means they still tried to follow their command.

Spoiler

Quote

Zahel stood and dropped the knife with a clang. Kaladin recovered it, sitting up, and glanced at the fallen sheets. They lay on the ground—normal cloths, occasionally shifting in the breeze. In fact, another man might have dismissed their motions as a trick of the wind.
But Kaladin knew the wind. That had not been the wind.
“You can’t join the ardents,” Zahel said to him, kneeling and touching one of the cloths with his finger, then lifting it and pinning it onto the drying line. He did the same for the others, each in turn.

 

 

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Yes, sentience allows them to choose the intent. Nightblood is different, he also has the Command, which takes over him when drawn out of sheath.

Yeah by that I simply meant that awakened blades cant really change their intent as their intent is based off of the command and intent of the person issuing the command when they are made. Other shardblades have a bit more control over their intent. 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

As said in the WoB I posted, it depends on the amounts of Breaths in the cloth, SA spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

The scene in RoW doesn't contradict the WoB. Cloths were Awakened with normal amounts of Breaths, without giving them anything more. But if they were Awakened with more than needed, or a more complex command was given to them, they would have enough Breaths to fully resist being cut by a Shardblade, as the WoB said. The WoB specifically said that an Awakened cloth with enough Breath would be able to block a Shardblade strike. That's because investiture resists investiture, a Shardblade can cut that amount of investiture and even though it is a simple cloth, it will stop it.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

How would an Awakened with Breath piece of cloth react if it got hit with a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

A Shardblade would probably be able to cut it, but it depends on how much Breath we're talking about.

Questioner

So if it had enough, it might be able to block it

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 7, 2018)

Another WoB tells us that an Awakened object would resist Shardblade cut to some extent. It can either mean that the blade passing through it would met resistance (as even when cutting through a person you feel some resistance) but still can cut if fully, or it would act like a Half-Shard or Shardplate section, being able to take 2 or 3 hits from a Shardblade, before getting cut by it.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Shardblades cut organic and inorganic matter differently. How would they interact with an animated construct like an Awakened straw man? What about a Lifeless?

Brandon Sanderson

So I walk kind of a fine line here. Something that's animated as a construct, like an Awakened straw man, is likely going to block the Shardblade to some extent, as powerful Investiture would. A Lifeless is probably just gonna act like it was a living being.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

 

13 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

That said we have no idea what happens to breaths when things are cut and if those losses are lessened if there is a command and intent or not. 

We do know. In Warbreaker an Awakened rope thrown by Vivenna was cut by Denth into two pieces and both of those pieces were still twisting trying to "hold" something, trying to fulfill their command.

  Reveal hidden contents

little_wilson

Mi'chelle is wanting to know for a fanfic she's wanting to write if when you cut/break an object that has been Awakened if the object then "dies", or if the pieces will try to carry out the command. Also, either way, can the breaths be recovered from it?

Brandon Sanderson

The object does not die, and will try to continue its purpose. The level of damage will determine just how well it can continue. The Breaths are recoverable. (Though there could be some loss of Breaths, depending on how the item is destroyed.) There's a scene near the end where Vasher Awakens some clothing, then it gets cut down and he recovers the Breath.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

SA spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

In the case of the RoW fight, Vasher was able to retrieve his Breath from cloths cut by a Shardblade. Likely the vast majority of them or even all of them - this we don't know. Kaladin even noted that some cloths cut by him were still bouncing unnaturally, which means they still tried to follow their command.

  Hide contents

Quote

Zahel stood and dropped the knife with a clang. Kaladin recovered it, sitting up, and glanced at the fallen sheets. They lay on the ground—normal cloths, occasionally shifting in the breeze. In fact, another man might have dismissed their motions as a trick of the wind.
But Kaladin knew the wind. That had not been the wind.
“You can’t join the ardents,” Zahel said to him, kneeling and touching one of the cloths with his finger, then lifting it and pinning it onto the drying line. He did the same for the others, each in turn.

 

 

 

I must be confusing something here. I believed that the investiture amount in an item would be able to protect said item from being cut by the magical portion of the blade only. By this logic the Godking himself should be shardblade resistant. I know we don't have figures but if it takes 1000 breaths to make a shardblade and your average returned has equivalent to 2000 breaths for the 5th heightening wouldn't that give them resistance?  Yet we see clearly that a returned can be killed by even a nonmagical weapon. 

Perhaps intent is important in this as well? I assumed that with shardblades if the magical cutting cant do its work then the normal blade still can. 

Spoiler

Yata

Hi, the community has a [question], we have two WoBs: Shardblades can cut aluminum and Shardblades can't cut it. Which one is true?

Brandon Sanderson (Part 1/Part 2/Part 3)

Hm. Yes, I wondered last night if I'd ever answered this before. Truth is, the answer is contentious at Team Sanderson.

I've been pushing for one answer, but Peter (whom I trust) is pushing back. We will see what ends up in the books as canon.

Problem with magic like I do is sometimes you have to wait for the scientific consensus... Err on "no" for now.

Peter Ahlstrom (Part 1/Part 2/Part 3)

Oh, I think aluminum would stop Shardblades from magical cutting. But if it's too thin like foil, a sword...

...would cut it anyway. What I'm arguing is that something else that Shardblades don't cut doesn't need...

...to necessarily be made of aluminum, for various reasons.

Yata

For example Invested objects (metalmind,spike,etc) or polestones (from some SA's Quote) ?

Peter Ahlstrom

RAFO

Footnote: The two conflicting WoBs can be found here and here. Also the "something else" that Peter was referring to is likely the Shardblade guards, which have since been confirmed to not be aluminum.
General Twitter 2017 (Feb. 3, 2017)

I always just associated highly invested objects acting closer to aluminum in their ability to resist shardblades. I guess that is something I need to remove from my mind. It does make me wonder if this is an investiture vs size of object sort of thing. 

If Nightblood were a 3lb longsword then every 0.003lbs is storing a breath (at his creation).  According to the coppermind Returned are roughly 7 feet tall. To have a normal BMI of 25 you would be right around 250lbs. This would require 83,333 breaths to have the same ratio as a 3 lb Nightblood.  

Different materials mean different things. If it was simply a weight to breath ratio that mattered I imagine the 9th heightening allowing you to awaken metal and stone wouldn't be as big of a problem. It would seem that the extra heightening's required are because those materials require more breath to do anything at all. 

I don't believe we have any word on how much breath a command makes up for in any of these scenarios. 

I really want to believe that dumping 1000 breaths into 3lbs of cloth would allow me to make shard proof clothing but I am really hesitant to believe it is possible even with 10x that much. Cloth can still be cut by a knife! Perhaps an awakened leather set of armor would be more appropriate for this sort of thing as leather provides a bit more protection at its base. 

Spoiler

Combine the awakened leather (plus bonus breaths) with some heavily filled metalmind studs and you have shard resistant studded armor. 

 Side note: 

Can awakening at lower heightening's effect wood since it was once alive?  Would an aged staff be harder to awaken than a newly cut shaft that is then allowed to harden?

[alder24]

This contains references to Shardblades from SA and I don't want to play with spoiler boxes. I'm avoiding spoilers from SA.

 

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I must be confusing something here. I believed that the investiture amount in an item would be able to protect said item from being cut by the magical portion of the blade only. By this logic the Godking himself should be shardblade resistant. I know we don't have figures but if it takes 1000 breaths to make a shardblade and your average returned has equivalent to 2000 breaths for the 5th heightening wouldn't that give them resistance?  Yet we see clearly that a returned can be killed by even a nonmagical weapon. 

No idea how would it work.Them being humans might change something. Nonmagical weapons aren't invested. SA WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

If something is heavily Invested, it's harder for a Shardblade to go through it, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of. It depends on the kind of Investiture and things that are going on. But yes. If you want to block a Shardblade... Like a metalmind would be a good thing to use to fight a Shardblade.

Questioner

A person with a lot of Breath, like the God-King, would you be able to chop them with a Shardblade or no?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to get very tricky on that, so I'll RAFO that for now. Let's just say that there are things. For instance, a Shardblade excising someone who's been Hemalurgically spiked is a theoretical possibility. 

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

49 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Perhaps intent is important in this as well? I assumed that with shardblades if the magical cutting cant do its work then the normal blade still can. 

I assume there is a difference between aluminum and an invested object, aluminum isn't invested. Invested object is, and its investiture would resist investiture of another object. As the WoB stated, if a simple cloth was given enough Breaths it would fully block a Shardblade cuts. A simple Awakened strawman is said to resist to some degree. Both of those things are made out of very cuttable material.

And look at the WoB you've posted, Brandon had a disagreement on that one with Peter, they didn't canonize it yet: "I've been pushing for one answer, but Peter (whom I trust) is pushing back. We will see what ends up in the books as canon."

50 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I always just associated highly invested objects acting closer to aluminum in their ability to resist shardblades. I guess that is something I need to remove from my mind. It does make me wonder if this is an investiture vs size of object sort of thing. 

I think they would act more like a Half-Shard, until they reach a point when they're comparable to Shardblade and would fully resist them no matter how many times they got hit by them. Like Nightblood.

50 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Different materials mean different things. If it was simply a weight to breath ratio that mattered I imagine the 9th heightening allowing you to awaken metal and stone wouldn't be as big of a problem. It would seem that the extra heightening's required are because those materials require more breath to do anything at all. 

It's harder because stone and metal were never alive. Awakening is about mimicking life, it needs Awakened objects to be as close to life and living shapes as possible. Metal and stone were never alive.

51 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I really want to believe that dumping 1000 breaths into 3lbs of cloth would allow me to make shard proof clothing but I am really hesitant to believe it is possible even with 10x that much. Cloth can still be cut by a knife!

I understand your concern. Keep in mind, a knife isn't invested. It doesn't have a massive amount of investiture attached to it that strongly resists other investiture. Take 2 pieces of iron, you can put one next to the other with no problem. Magnetize them and suddenly when you turn them towards each other with the same pole, they will repulse each other. That's how investiture might work - a different type of force that resists two items from getting close to each other due to investiture. There are two highly invested souls colliding with each other, preventing the Shardblade from cutting it. A knife isn't invested, there is no collision of souls.

I find both options possible. One that highly invested piece of cloth won't be cut by a Shardblade, no matter how sharp it is. The second one that it will be, because it's physically cutting it. We have to wait and see which one will be true.

52 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

leather set of armor

What is that? I hope you don't imagine leather armor as literal pieces of leather and nothing more, like depicted in games or movies. That didn't exist. Brigandine was a "leather" armor, with metal plates riveted into leather which held it in a shape. That's how leather was used in armor. But leather itself isn't armor. It's soft. It can't protect.

55 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Can awakening at lower heightening's effect wood since it was once alive?  Would an aged staff be harder to awaken than a newly cut shaft that is then allowed to harden?

You can. But wood doesn't move so Awakened wood won't do anything, it won't move. I don't think we know if an aged once alive item would be harder to Awakened, possibly, but it still was alive so maybe that doesn't matter at all? In Warbreaker they use ropes and cloths all the time, and those were not alive for a very long time.

 

I hate it when I just write a long response, paste a WoB in the wrong place, click ctrl+z and the whole response disappears with no way to get it back...

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

51 minutes ago, alder24 said:

This contains references to Shardblades from SA and I don't want to play with spoiler boxes. I'm avoiding spoilers from SA.

 

No idea how would it work.Them being humans might change something. Nonmagical weapons aren't invested. SA WoB:

  Hide contents

Questioner

If something is heavily Invested, it's harder for a Shardblade to go through it, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of. It depends on the kind of Investiture and things that are going on. But yes. If you want to block a Shardblade... Like a metalmind would be a good thing to use to fight a Shardblade.

Questioner

A person with a lot of Breath, like the God-King, would you be able to chop them with a Shardblade or no?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to get very tricky on that, so I'll RAFO that for now. Let's just say that there are things. For instance, a Shardblade excising someone who's been Hemalurgically spiked is a theoretical possibility. 

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

I assume there is a difference between aluminum and an invested object, aluminum isn't invested. Invested object is, and its investiture would resist investiture of another object. As the WoB stated, if a simple cloth was given enough Breaths it would fully block a Shardblade cuts. A simple Awakened strawman is said to resist to some degree. Both of those things are made out of very cuttable material.

And look at the WoB you've posted, Brandon had a disagreement on that one with Peter, they didn't canonize it yet: "I've been pushing for one answer, but Peter (whom I trust) is pushing back. We will see what ends up in the books as canon."

I think they would act more like a Half-Shard, until they reach a point when they're comparable to Shardblade and would fully resist them no matter how many times they got hit by them. Like Nightblood.

It's harder because stone and metal were never alive. Awakening is about mimicking life, it needs Awakened objects to be as close to life and living shapes as possible. Metal and stone were never alive.

I understand your concern. Keep in mind, a knife isn't invested. It doesn't have a massive amount of investiture attached to it that strongly resists other investiture. Take 2 pieces of iron, you can put one next to the other with no problem. Magnetize them and suddenly when you turn them towards each other with the same pole, they will repulse each other. That's how investiture might work - a different type of force that resists two items from getting close to each other due to investiture. There are two highly invested souls colliding with each other, preventing the Shardblade from cutting it. A knife isn't invested, there is no collision of souls.

I find both options possible. One that highly invested piece of cloth won't be cut by a Shardblade, no matter how sharp it is. The second one that it will be, because it's physically cutting it. We have to wait and see which one will be true.

What is that? I hope you don't imagine leather armor as literal pieces of leather and nothing more, like depicted in games or movies. That didn't exist. Brigandine was a "leather" armor, with metal plates riveted into leather which held it in a shape. That's how leather was used in armor. But leather itself isn't armor. It's soft. It can't protect.

You can. But wood doesn't move so Awakened wood won't do anything, it won't move. I don't think we know if an aged once alive item would be harder to Awakened, possibly, but it still was alive so maybe that doesn't matter at all? In Warbreaker they use ropes and cloths all the time, and those were not alive for a very long time.

 

I hate it when I just write a long response, paste a WoB in the wrong place, click ctrl+z and the whole response disappears with no way to get it back...

I have been there with deleted posts!  

Leather armor I was thinking studded or a brigandine.  

I like the idea of magnets.  That seems plausible given that investiture resists investiture.  The way Brandon describes it makes that seem really possible.  

If cloth truly can block a shardblade completely I think that an awakened brigandine might be the way to go!  Awaken the cloth or leather and dump ludicrous amounts of breath into it and then use it to create your brigandine with some good quality steel (invested or non invested doesn't much matter since the cloth is for repelling shards and the steel is for armoring against non magical blades).  

My focus when talking shardblade vs armor X is simply that you need to defend against the blade and the magical properties.  The magical properties of a shardblade (and their Nalthis born counterparts for this discussion which I don't see as a spoiler given that if it can block Nightblood it can block a Rosharan blade) are only a part of what makes them dangerous.  They are still swords underneath it all.  I do appreciate the magnet analogy as that makes this easier.  Now you have an issue of sharp chunk of steel swinging at you without the magic cutting abilities which needs to be addressed as well.  

I think that highly invested cloth or leather wrapped around uninvested steel would probably be the cheapest and fastest route to help defend against both options.  You don't need the 9th heightening.  You likely don't need that complex of a command and you can funnel as much breath into the cloth as needed.  The steel underneath just acts as a typical piece of metal to hopefully stop other typical pieces of metal.  

If you wanted to go for a fully awakened set and still weren't the 9th heightening I imagine that some wood or bamboo could aid in helping against the uninvested weapons... 

As for leather armor or wooden pieces used in armor. I am not proposing that they would work like metal.  Obviously games are games and life ending gashes are for real.  All armor should consist of multiple layers. I would recommend padding under steel as much as I would think steel should go over padding.  Hardened leather isn't steel but if you wanted to go the route of fully awakened protection under the 9th heightening I imagine a piece of hardened awakened leather would offer more protection to slashes than a piece of awakened cloth alone.  I've skinned my fair share of animals and even soft hides can offer protection against slashes.  Crushing blows or stabbing attacks are where you really need those harder materials. Awakened gambesone would do you good under any other material. Chain over the top for a mixed invested set would most likely be a better bet still (not as good as a brigandine with an amount of padding). 

I think it is reasonable to create shard resistant gear just by dumping breaths into is as the OP asked.  But what parts are you putting the majority of your investiture into?  If a non awakened metal sword takes 10,000 breaths to stop a sword awakened with 1000 breaths then how many more breaths could be needed for cloth to do the same?  How much could you cut back and save if you use a command on cloth or leather or even just a stick instead?  

General cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

I know the answers are just that we don't have units or math to use.  That it totally fine. Just the thoughts of a crazed man who likes to think out scenarios of what cosmere combos are needed to compete with the freebies that radiants get at 3rd and 4th ideals for saying words.... without being fullborn.  

 

I think amassing breaths is the most probable way to make a set of armor and weapons like this, but efficiency matters and getting enough breaths to awaken one object is tricky enough.  Its a dangerous business to become a powerful awakener.  Everyone of your enemies wants to torture you and take your breath. 

 

[alder24]

12 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Leather armor I was thinking studded or a brigandine.  

That never existed. Brigandine did, which is the reason why "studded leather armor" was misinterpreted.

15 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If cloth truly can block a shardblade completely I think that an awakened brigandine might be the way to go!  Awaken the cloth or leather and dump ludicrous amounts of breath into it and then use it to create your brigandine with some good quality steel (invested or non invested doesn't much matter since the cloth is for repelling shards and the steel is for armoring against non magical blades).  

Yes.

16 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

My focus when talking shardblade vs armor X is simply that you need to defend against the blade and the magical properties.  The magical properties of a shardblade (and their Nalthis born counterparts for this discussion which I don't see as a spoiler given that if it can block Nightblood it can block a Rosharan blade) are only a part of what makes them dangerous.  They are still swords underneath it all.  I do appreciate the magnet analogy as that makes this easier.  Now you have an issue of sharp chunk of steel swinging at you without the magic cutting abilities which needs to be addressed as well.  

Yes, I do understand that. You need metal to stop knifes etc as well.

17 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think that highly invested cloth or leather wrapped around uninvested steel would probably be the cheapest and fastest route to help defend against both options.  You don't need the 9th heightening.  You likely don't need that complex of a command and you can funnel as much breath into the cloth as needed.  The steel underneath just acts as a typical piece of metal to hopefully stop other typical pieces of metal.  

Yes, but cloth would have to be replaced if it was cut by normal blades. Otherwise you would have holes for Shardblade to penetrate through and cut metal and flesh.

19 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If you wanted to go for a fully awakened set and still weren't the 9th heightening I imagine that some wood or bamboo could aid in helping against the uninvested weapons... 

Kind of. Wood is heavy and flammable. Just dump Breaths into metal without Awakening it.

21 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

As for leather armor or wooden pieces used in armor. I am not proposing that they would work like metal.  Obviously games are games and life ending gashes are for real.  All armor should consist of multiple layers. I would recommend padding under steel as much as I would think steel should go over padding.  Hardened leather isn't steel but if you wanted to go the route of fully awakened protection under the 9th heightening I imagine a piece of hardened awakened leather would offer more protection to slashes than a piece of awakened cloth alone.  I've skinned my fair share of animals and even soft hides can offer protection against slashes.  Crushing blows or stabbing attacks are where you really need those harder materials. Awakened gambesone would do you good under any other material. Chain over the top for a mixed invested set would most likely be a better bet still (not as good as a brigandine with an amount of padding). 

Now that's how real armors were worn!

22 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think it is reasonable to create shard resistant gear just by dumping breaths into is as the OP asked.  But what parts are you putting the majority of your investiture into?  If a non awakened metal sword takes 10,000 breaths to stop a sword awakened with 1000 breaths then how many more breaths could be needed for cloth to do the same?  How much could you cut back and save if you use a command on cloth or leather or even just a stick instead?  

I don't think there would be such a discrepancy. 1000 Breaths would likely be enough. It's the same amount of investiture, one just has a sapience and command, which allows them to cut, other however has the same amount of investiture, it should resist it well, as per WoBs it's about how invested they are.

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

That never existed. Brigandine did, which is the reason why "studded leather armor" was misinterpreted.

Yes.

Yes, I do understand that. You need metal to stop knifes etc as well.

Yes, but cloth would have to be replaced if it was cut by normal blades. Otherwise you would have holes for Shardblade to penetrate through and cut metal and flesh.

Kind of. Wood is heavy and flammable. Just dump Breaths into metal without Awakening it.

Now that's how real armors were worn!

I don't think there would be such a discrepancy. 1000 Breaths would likely be enough. It's the same amount of investiture, one just has a sapience and command, which allows them to cut, other however has the same amount of investiture, it should resist it well, as per WoBs it's about how invested they are.

 

I feel like I remember some evidence of a tribe using leather armor and then adding layers of adhesive and sand to further stand up to slashing.  I honestly don't know anymore though.  Too much nerdy stuff goes on in my mind that has to take a back seat to RL too often. 

I can see a world where 1000 breaths is 1000 breaths and that is that.  Does the command use 100% of the breath needed to make an item work?  

I have a slightly different theory from that but would be really happy if it turns out to be wrong.  

I feel like I remember higher heightenings requiring less breaths than lower ones.  I know I remember that certain commands allow more complex action with less breath.  This all leads me to believe that awakening an item sort of builds a connection there between the the 3 realms where the item can do what it needs to.  I don't want to jump to a conclusion and say that awakened items are drawing on extra investiture behind the scenes, but it seems like the better the command and visualization behind it the better the results both in functionality and cost.  This really makes me wonder if it would be the same breath to breath comparison on how invested something is.  I kind of think something awakened has more going on in the background than the breaths simply funneled into it to awaken it.  

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I feel like I remember some evidence of a tribe using leather armor and then adding layers of adhesive and sand to further stand up to slashing.  I honestly don't know anymore though.  Too much nerdy stuff goes on in my mind that has to take a back seat to RL too often. 

I specifically was talking about studded leather armor, there is no evidence it existed. It's likely that someone in our times saw brigandine and turned it into studded leather armor. Leather armor overall was used in history, but it didn't look like depicted in movies or games.

11 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I can see a world where 1000 breaths is 1000 breaths and that is that.  Does the command use 100% of the breath needed to make an item work?  

No idea, WoBs imply you can give more Breaths than needed by command and item's shape.

14 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I feel like I remember higher heightenings requiring less breaths than lower ones.  I know I remember that certain commands allow more complex action with less breath. 

No, that's Instinctive Awakening, Sixth Heightening, the ability to immediately understand and use basic Awakening Commands without training or practice. More difficult commands are easier for them to master and to discover. You still need the same amount of Breaths. The amount of Breaths needed is determined by the object's shape, focus (human hair) and Command with visualization. That's it. At least that’s what defines the minimum required. 

22 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I don't want to jump to a conclusion and say that awakened items are drawing on extra investiture behind the scenes, but it seems like the better the command and visualization behind it the better the results both in functionality and cost. 

More complex commands require more Breaths. Color is used to fuel something and it is related to changes made on a spiritual level (in the object from which color is drawn) and visualization. Breaths are powering Awakened objects and it is likely that they're getting used up slowly by this.

Spoiler

DavidB

Also, it seems to me like it would be more internally consistent if Awakened objects consumed Breath, to make all of these Breath-consuming powers in the last few chapters fit in better. So for example, if Vasher Awakened a shirt and left it Awakened and doing stuff for a day, then he might be down one-seventh of a breath when he took it back at the end of the day. (Of course, that mechanic requires it to be possible to transfer or Awaken with portions of a Breath, and if you could do that, then using the "putting the Breaths you don't want to transfer into a cloth until after the transfer" thing, you could feed the Returned by taking a tiny fraction of all the Halladren's breaths, instead of taking some people's entire Breaths and turning them into Drabs.)

Brandon Sanderson

Hum. I like that suggestion, actually. I think I'll use it. Though, what I'll do is say that if you leave the breath in for too long, one of them vanishes. If you can get them back quickly enough, however, there is no loss. That gives a bit of a better explanation of why there aren't a lot of awakened objects doing things all over the place. True, using the breath to make them would be initially expensive--but if you got a magic object that never winds down, then that might be worth the expense.

TWG Posts (May 3, 2007)

 

26 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This really makes me wonder if it would be the same breath to breath comparison on how invested something is.

Every Breath has a different value, some are stronger like Vivenna's, some weaker. 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

20 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I specifically was talking about studded leather armor, there is no evidence it existed. It's likely that someone in our times saw brigandine and turned it into studded leather armor. Leather armor overall was used in history, but it didn't look like depicted in movies or games.

No idea, WoBs imply you can give more Breaths than needed by command and item's shape.

No, that's Instinctive Awakening, Sixth Heightening, the ability to immediately understand and use basic Awakening Commands without training or practice. More difficult commands are easier for them to master and to discover. You still need the same amount of Breaths. The amount of Breaths needed is determined by the object's shape, focus (human hair) and Command with visualization. That's it. At least that’s what defines the minimum required. 

More complex commands require more Breaths. Color is used to fuel something and it is related to changes made on a spiritual level (in the object from which color is drawn) and visualization. Breaths are powering Awakened objects and it is likely that they're getting used up slowly by this.

  Hide contents

DavidB

Also, it seems to me like it would be more internally consistent if Awakened objects consumed Breath, to make all of these Breath-consuming powers in the last few chapters fit in better. So for example, if Vasher Awakened a shirt and left it Awakened and doing stuff for a day, then he might be down one-seventh of a breath when he took it back at the end of the day. (Of course, that mechanic requires it to be possible to transfer or Awaken with portions of a Breath, and if you could do that, then using the "putting the Breaths you don't want to transfer into a cloth until after the transfer" thing, you could feed the Returned by taking a tiny fraction of all the Halladren's breaths, instead of taking some people's entire Breaths and turning them into Drabs.)

Brandon Sanderson

Hum. I like that suggestion, actually. I think I'll use it. Though, what I'll do is say that if you leave the breath in for too long, one of them vanishes. If you can get them back quickly enough, however, there is no loss. That gives a bit of a better explanation of why there aren't a lot of awakened objects doing things all over the place. True, using the breath to make them would be initially expensive--but if you got a magic object that never winds down, then that might be worth the expense.

TWG Posts (May 3, 2007)

 

Every Breath has a different value, some are stronger like Vivenna's, some weaker. 

Thanks for that WoB. 

All of this conversation has me picturing a character who carries around spandex skin suits and awakens them dumping tons of breath to make a squad of shard repelling cloth soldiers.  Arm them with some large hammers and send them on their way.  Picture them being disarmed and using their last bit of mobility to latch onto the opponent and try to lash their arms together.  

I have long wondered how the tensile strength of awakened ropes and fabric works.  

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

I want to know if a shardplate wearer could break free from a length of rope commanded to hold him.  I also want to know if commanding that rope to crush would result in damaged shardplate or if the rope would shred itself before that happens.  

(Perhaps a rope threaded through chain which suddenly allows for metal weapons that can bend and move based on command.)  

 

 

[alder24]

47 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

All of this conversation has me picturing a character who carries around spandex skin suits and awakens them dumping tons of breath to make a squad of shard repelling cloth soldiers.  Arm them with some large hammers and send them on their way.  Picture them being disarmed and using their last bit of mobility to latch onto the opponent and try to lash their arms together.  

That might be irritating to handle.

48 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I have long wondered how the tensile strength of awakened ropes and fabric works.  

SA spoilers:

Quite well. Vasher Awakened clothes which picked up swords and were able to fight. Ropes were said to be throwing boulders during Manywar. Vasher's coat and trousers gives him extra strength and absorbs a lot of energy when falling from a distance that shouldn't work. Vasher's strawman was able to carry metal keys. But there was a WoB, which I can't find now, which said that Awakening doesn't give any more strength or durability to the Awakened object than it already has. So I think the examples you gave aren't possible, unless you tie them with several loops or very thick rope. The rope threaded into a chain could work. Add spikes to the chain.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

35 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That might be irritating to handle.

Quite well. Vasher Awakened clothes which picked up swords and were able to fight. Ropes were said to be throwing boulders during Manywar. Vasher's coat and trousers gives him extra strength and absorbs a lot of energy when falling from a distance that shouldn't work. Vasher's strawman was able to carry metal keys. But there was a WoB, which I can't find now, which said that Awakening doesn't give any more strength or durability to the Awakened object than it already has. So I think the examples you gave aren't possible, unless you tie them with several loops or very thick rope. The rope threaded into a chain could work. Add spikes to the chain.

I have long tried to picture Vasher's falling and the clothing absorbing the impact.  Some parts of my mind picture the lengths of cloth extending outward underneath him creating almost a spring as he lands.  Do you believe it simply added magical structure and support?  

I don't recall how far he fell but we all know I am a sucker for cool landings.  Do you think that the awakened leggins would have been able to absorb enough energy to protect him from terminal velocity+?  If Szeth were to lash him straight up and he fell to the ground a minute later or whatever do you suppose Vasher's awakened clothing would protect him?  Do you think he would end up combining it somehow with some newly awakened pseudo parachute?  

Do you think he could survive a fall from Luthadels wall?  Vin cleared it one time I know but she was blessed with steel to pad her landing.  Do you think strengthened leggings could hold a person together from that height?  

I know its all speculation but I like hearing other peoples thoughts on it. 

How much strength do you think awakened clothing could add?  Do you think it pulls tighter on the skin or simply allows one to lift more while maintaining its typical fit on the body?  

Picturing a big burley kolossblooded victorian era pugilist fighting with ropes and potentially chains wrapped around fists and arms. (Not that anyone cares but this is the character I have been fixated on). 

[alder24]

16 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I have long tried to picture Vasher's falling and the clothing absorbing the impact.  Some parts of my mind picture the lengths of cloth extending outward underneath him creating almost a spring as he lands.  Do you believe it simply added magical structure and support?  

More like a spring around his leg, absorbing energy. It won't help you if you fall from too high, but on some moderate heights it would work well, Warbreaker ch 56

Quote

“Your Breath to mine,” he yelled as his momentum slowed. The rope dropped free and he landed on the first block. “Become as my leg and give it strength!” he Commanded, drawing color from the blood on his chest. The rope twisted down, wrapping around his leg and foot as he leaped off. He landed on the next block, one foot down, the coiled rope—and its strange, inhuman muscles—bearing the brunt of the shock.
Four hops and he hit the ground. A group of soldiers stood amidst some bodies at the front gates, looking confused. Vasher barreled toward them, colorless translucent blood dropping from his skin as he drew his Breath back from the rope.

 

16 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I don't recall how far he fell but we all know I am a sucker for cool landings.  Do you think that the awakened leggins would have been able to absorb enough energy to protect him from terminal velocity+?

No, that's lethal even for him.

16 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If Szeth were to lash him straight up and he fell to the ground a minute later or whatever do you suppose Vasher's awakened clothing would protect him? 

Unlikely. Unless he has a very long rope that he can use like a spring, under him, not on his legs.

16 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you think he would end up combining it somehow with some newly awakened pseudo parachute?  

He doesn't have a parachute, nor his clothes would provide enough material to make one.

16 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you think he could survive a fall from Luthadels wall?  Vin cleared it one time I know but she was blessed with steel to pad her landing.  Do you think strengthened leggings could hold a person together from that height?  

How tall were they? Around 30 feet tall, 10 meters? Yes, he can.

17 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I know its all speculation but I like hearing other peoples thoughts on it. 

You ask a loooot of speculative questions  

17 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

How much strength do you think awakened clothing could add?  Do you think it pulls tighter on the skin or simply allows one to lift more while maintaining its typical fit on the body?  

Both. Awakened clothes are so strong that they can throw people into the wall, Warbreaker ch 51:

Quote

He grabbed his attacker by the face with one of his arm tassels, then twisted the man back and threw him into the wall. Another figured charged him from behind, but Vasher’s Awakened cloak caught that one, tripping him.

ch 53:

Quote

“Upon call,” she Commanded, “become my fingers and grip that which I must.” She’d only heard Vasher give the Command a couple of times, and she still wasn’t quite sure how to visualize what she wanted the shirt to do. She imagined the tassels closing around her hands as she had seen them do for Vasher.
She Awakened the leggings, commanding them to strengthen her legs. The leg tassels began to twist, and she raised each foot in turn, letting the tassels wrap around the bottoms. Her stance felt firmer, the leggings pulled tight against her skin.

ch 55:

Quote

She twitched her fingers, making the tassels on her sleeves clench and unclench. Then she jumped, her Awakened leggings tossing her up a few extra feet. She reached up and made the tassels grab the edge of the large, black block. The tassels just barely held, gripping the stone like footlong fingers. With difficulty, Vivenna pulled herself up onto the block.

ch 49:

Quote

Another man attacked, and Vasher spun, whipping out a hand. The tassels on his sleeve moved on their own, wrapping around the blade of the thief’s sword, catching it. Vasher’s momentum ripped the blade free, and he tossed it aside, the tassels releasing it.
The sword hit the dirt of the cellar floor; Vasher’s hand snapped up, grabbing the thief’s face. The tassels wrapped around the man’s head like a squid’s tentacles. Vasher slammed the man backward and down into the ground— kneeling as he did to add momentum—even as he rammed the sheathed Nightblood into another man’s legs, dropping him. A third tried to cut Vasher from behind, and Vivenna cried a warning. Vasher’s cloak, however, suddenly whipped out—moving on its own—and grabbed the surprised man by the arms.

My explanation of this is (aligning with the WoB saying that Awakening doesn't give any extra strength) if a piece of fabric can normally hold a person's weight, it can also throw him, hold him, add strength etc when Awaken. If your clothes, ropes, fabrics etc can normally hold your weight, then Awakening will make them work without tearing.

But the Awakened material has so much strength, that a single thread can twist metal mechanism of a lock, which I think is a lot from a thread, too much to work with this idea, ch 49:

Quote

Instead she pulled a thread free from her shirt, trying to ignore the cries of pain from behind [...]

“Twist things,” she said, feeling the Breath leave her. She stuck the thread into the lock. It spun about, and she heard a click. The door opened.