Who is the most dangerous individual

[Spearguy]

Just wanted to see who is viewed as the most dangerous character, I put both the Heralds and Five scholars on this list due to the fact that I wanted them on here but it would have made it a bit of a mess. Dangerous in this context isn't how strong they are in a fight, it is more so about how much harm they could cause on a wide scale.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Spearguy

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Spearguy said:

Just wanted to see who is viewed as the most dangerous character, I put both the Heralds and Five scholars on this list due to the fact that I wanted them on here but it would have made it a bit of a mess. Dangerous in this context isn't how strong they are in a fight, it is more so about how much harm they could cause on a wide scale.

Shards/Vessels are on the table?

Ishar is very dangerous, Nightblood is dangerous (he killed a Vessel). Rashek would be there high on the list, but he's dead now. Dalinar as a Bondsmith (not yet, he's too green now) Hoid is the most knowledgeable person in Cosmere with lots of powers, he can mess things up even though he can't kill or harm. There are dragons and Avatars too. God-King has a lot of Breaths, he can make an army of Lifeless with that. Marsh has Atium. Kelsier has a big secret organization messing with other planets, the Ire was very close to stealing Preservation. And Rysn has a Dawnshard.

[Spearguy]

No, no shards aren't allowed, but any other being is allowed. I debated a bit on whether to put nightblood on the poll but decided that the threat that nightblood can pose varies wildly depending on who's wielding him.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Spearguy

[therunner]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Ishar is very dangerous,

Ishar is also insane and not very effective (at the moment).

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Nightblood is dangerous (he killed a Vessel).

Nightblood is powerless unless wielded, and to kill a Vessel required quite unique combination of events.
I don't think he can do much large scale harm, he is at the end of the a sword, albeit one-hit kill one.

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Rashek would be there high on the list, but he's dead now.

Rashek is one man with a lot of personally dangerous powers, but he is still just one guy, and with some limitations (e.g. needs metalminds which can be taken away by properly utiliized Invested Art).

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Dalinar as a Bondsmith (not yet, he's too green now)

Yep, though I would say his position as 'stand-in' for Honor is what makes him more dangerous than just being a Bondsmith.

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Hoid is the most knowledgeable person in Cosmere with lots of powers, he can mess things up even though he can't kill or harm.

Hoid is quite dangerous when he wants, but he is not as smart as he thinks he is, as evidenced by RoW.
But he is up-there when it comes to dangerousness, if he decides to actually try for something.

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There are dragons and

Dragons seem non-interventions, so they would not pose much danger.
How dangerous they would be is a question.

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Avatars too.

Avatars are sort of minor Shard, less power, but more leevay in how to use it (possibly).

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God-King has a lot of Breaths, he can make an army of Lifeless with that.

He can have about 50 000 Lifeless if he uses up all his Breath. Not that large an army in grand scheme of things.

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Marsh has Atium.

Per WoB barely enough Atium to stay alive, he cannot do much with it.
And even then, Atium would not make him that influential.

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Kelsier has a big secret organization messing with other planets

Not that big, based on what we see in SA and TLM, it has maybe a few dozen members, if that.

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the Ire was very close to stealing Preservation.

Organization, not individual.

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,And Rysn has a Dawnshard.

And a Change dawnshard at that, that could lead to some 'fun' if properly powered.

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Spearguy said:

No, no shards are allowed, but any other being is allowed. I debated a bit on whether to put nightblood on the poll but decided that the threat that nightblood can pose varies wildly depending on who's wielding him.

Nightblood is less dangerous than Bondsmith unbound:

Spoiler

Scott Beckman (paraphrased)

Which is scarier... Which is more dangerous: a sword that wants to destroy evil, or a Bondsmith with no bounds?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A Bondsmith with no bounds.

Scott Beckman (paraphrased)

Can an unbound Bondsmith take that sword's... ability for himself?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not exactly, but something similar. Probably not what you're thinking, but he could essentially take what that sword is, yes.

Miscellaneous 2022 (Sept. 17, 2022)

 

I think Ishar or Hoid are prime candidates. But Kelsier is too, not because he can fight, but because he has Ghostbloods, he can use them to start rebellions, assassinate people, mess up words etc - if it is this kind of mess we're talking about, then Kelsier would likely win. Just give him enough time and he will topple another government or god.

 

9 minutes ago, therunner said:

Ishar is also insane and not very effective (at the moment).

He almost "killed" Dalinar and took his bond and connections. His insanity makes him even more dangerous and unpredictable. Plus he controls Tukar and Shinovar.

13 minutes ago, therunner said:

Nightblood is powerless unless wielded, and to kill a Vessel required quite unique combination of events.
I don't think he can do much large scale harm, he is at the end of the a sword, albeit one-hit kill one.

He can control others and force them to kill each other. But your right.

10 minutes ago, therunner said:

Yep, though I would say his position as 'stand-in' for Honor is what makes him more dangerous than just being a Bondsmith.

Yes, but that's a future potential not right now.

11 minutes ago, therunner said:

Rashek is one man with a lot of personally dangerous powers, but he is still just one guy, and with some limitations (e.g. needs metalminds which can be taken away by properly utiliized Invested Art).

Add to this his control over Koloss army, Inquisitors and Kandra, and the whole Scadrial population under his rule - he can mess things up in a more general way than 1v1 fight.

1 minute ago, therunner said:

Dragons seem non-interventions, so they would not pose much danger.

One of them is. We know nothing about the others. And one dragon clearly was very active, she is a Shard now.

5 minutes ago, therunner said:

He can have about 50 000 Lifeless if he uses up all his Breath. Not that large an army in grand scheme of things.

He also has Phantoms. If he were to invade a minor world, he would conquer it. It really depends on what kind of danger we're talking about. In combat or in general?

7 minutes ago, therunner said:

Not that big, based on what we see in SA and TLM, it has maybe a few dozen members, if that.

There are dozens on Roshar alone. They have agents on many other worlds as well.

14 minutes ago, therunner said:

Organization, not individual.

Then unknown leader of Ire or whatever.

 

I feel under fire, I've just listed potential candidates, nothing more  

[Quantus]

20 minutes ago, therunner said:

Hoid is quite dangerous when he wants, but he is not as smart as he thinks he is, as evidenced by RoW.

And you think that makes him Less Dangerous?

If "Dangerous" is the largest disparity between Power and Experience or Understanding, I think Dalinar or Rysn are leading the pack.

 

Honorable mention to whomever made Azure's blade and thus could theoretically make a rival to Nightblood, not knowing anything else about them.  Imagine a more overtly antagonistic Command, "UnRavel Everything" or something.  

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I had to go with the 5 scholars. I would just say Vasher with Nightblood and the Peacegiver's gift. However that might just be a fanboys jerk reaction given that system is my favorite. Totally biased vote but that is mine. 

[therunner]

17 hours ago, alder24 said:

He almost "killed" Dalinar and took his bond and connections. His insanity makes him even more dangerous and unpredictable. Plus he controls Tukar and Shinovar.

The OP asks for most ;dangerous' individual, where dangerous means capable of large scale damage. Ishar due to his madness is relatively locally focused, and not really able to affect large change.
Only reason he rules Tukar and Shinovar is that they worship Heralds, and he happens to be one.
But opinions may vary of course.

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Yes, but that's a future potential not right now.

No, that is right now. It is the reason why Odium deals with him, why Dalinar can propose Contenst of Champions.
He is bonded to the largest remnant of Honor, that has been merged with CS of Tanavast, this is what makes him special even among Bondsmiths.

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Add to this his control over Koloss army, Inquisitors and Kandra, and the whole Scadrial population under his rule - he can mess things up in a more general way than 1v1 fight.

Individually dangerous.

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One of them is. We know nothing about the others. And one dragon clearly was very active, she is a Shard now.

One is isolations (Frost), one is Shard that seems to 'nudge' things at most and otherwise stays hands off (Koravellium Avast), and

Spoiler

Last one researches Aethers and has little interest in other events.

So 2/3 are seemingly not interested in affecting things, and the last one does so only in very limited fashion (possibly due to Intent).

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He also has Phantoms. If he were to invade a minor world, he would conquer it.

Again, individually dangerous, is the question posed in OP

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It really depends on what kind of danger we're talking about. In combat or in general?

Per OP: "Dangerous in this context isn't how strong they are in a fight, it is more so about how much harm they could cause on a wide scale. "

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There are dozens on Roshar alone. They have agents on many other worlds as well.

No there are not.
There is Iyatil, Mraize, and few other agents. However, considering how Rosharan branch operates, a lot of those are not full Ghostblood members, more catpaws.
I mean, Shallan was not yet Ghostblood, despite how important things she was handling.

They seem to be active on 4-5 worlds (based on what is said in TLM), so even if they have ~20 agents on each world, they are barely a hundred of them.

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Then unknown leader of Ire or whatever.

Do they have one?
They could be organized democratically, like Fused are for all we know.

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I feel under fire, I've just listed potential candidates, nothing more  

Sorry about that
I merely disputed why some would not make sense, considering the conditions in OP (individually dangerous, where dangerous is how much harm they can cause on large scale).

Edit:
@Quantus

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And you think that makes him Less Dangerous?

Yes. He can be accidentally dangerous and quite a lot, but if he actually was as smart as he thinks himself, he would be faar more dangerous in my opinion.
Fool can ef-things up, but genius can purposefully break things far more effectively.

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If "Dangerous" is the largest disparity between Power and Experience or Understanding, I think Dalinar or Rysn are leading the pack.

Good argument.

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Honorable mention to whomever made Azure's blade and thus could theoretically make a rival to Nightblood, not knowing anything else about them.  Imagine a more overtly antagonistic Command, "UnRavel Everything" or something.  

Nightblood required Shardic intervention it seems, so most likely you could not replicate it.

Edited May 27, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

The OP asks for most ;dangerous' individual, where dangerous means capable of large scale damage. Ishar due to his madness is relatively locally focused, and not really able to affect large change.
Only reason he rules Tukar and Shinovar is that they worship Heralds, and he happens to be one.
But opinions may vary of course.

I would say his ability to steal a bond with Stormfather and a championship against Odium makes him very capable of large-scale destruction - if he succeeded he could release Odium from Roshar, deadeye Stormfather or do some more damage to Roshar than we can even imagine.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Individually dangerous.

That's not specified. It's about "Dangerous in this context isn't how strong they are in a fight, it is more so about how much harm they could cause on a wide scale." - controlling armies for me counts as a damage on a wide scale. It's all about interpretation here. 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

 one is Shard that seems to 'nudge' things at most and otherwise stays hands off (Koravellium Avast)

So 2/3 are seemingly not interested in affecting things, and the last one does so only in very limited fashion (possibly due to Intent).

Cultivation now knows how to Splinter Shards, conducted a plot to kill Rayse, intervened in Dalinar an Lift's wish and is actively opposing Odium. She is very active if you ask me.

Spoiler

Gavin-son-son-Odegard

How does Cultivation figure in this conflict between Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

So, what people assume is that Cultivation is hiding. I would disagree with that. People in-world would assume that.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Spoiler

FirstSelector

Was Cultivation close enough to when Odium got  Honor, to know how to fight back?

Brandon Sanderson

Heheheheh. I would say yes.

FirstSelector

And Cultivation, is she--

Brandon Sanderson

She is still there.

FirstSelector

Alive and kicking. Okay, you've said that before--

Brandon Sanderson

She is alive and kicking.

FirstSelector

And she can probably know how to not turn her back to the--

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I mean... She has learned from the experiences of others.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Again, individually dangerous, is the question posed in OP

Point me please where is the word individually in OP

19 hours ago, Spearguy said:

Just wanted to see who is viewed as the most dangerous character, I put both the Heralds and Five scholars on this list due to the fact that I wanted them on here but it would have made it a bit of a mess. Dangerous in this context isn't how strong they are in a fight, it is more so about how much harm they could cause on a wide scale.

I see "harm on a wide scale" and "isn't how strong they are in a fight" - this for me means more than a single guy walking around and killing people with his magical powers, it means about control and influence one can have, followers he can amass, armies he can muster, charisma he has.

Napoleon was a very dangerous person not because he could walk around Europe by himself and destroy any army opposing him, but because he had armies of loyal soldiers ready to die for him and charisma to inspire them. Hitler wasn't "individually dangerous", he was dangerous because of his charisma and fanatical followers he had.

For me those things are important. Very important. Could Kelsier walk up to TLR and kill him? No, never. And yet he abolished him and killed him indirectly. Not because he was "individually dangerous" but because he was a charismatic smart person who with limited resources created a rebellion against him and trained Vin who killed him. That's why Kelsier is dangerous.

[therunner]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I would say his ability to steal a bond with Stormfather and a championship against Odium makes him very capable of large-scale destruction - if he succeeded he could release Odium from Roshar, deadeye Stormfather or do some more damage to Roshar than we can even imagine.

Fair point.
Though Dalinar can literally do the same, and in far easier way.

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That's not specified. It's about "Dangerous in this context isn't how strong they are in a fight, it is more so about how much harm they could cause on a wide scale." - controlling armies for me counts as a damage on a wide scale. It's all about interpretation here. 

Fair enough.

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Cultivation now knows how to Splinter Shards, conducted a plot to kill Rayse, intervened in Dalinar an Lift's wish and is actively opposing Odium. She is very active if you ask me.

  Reveal hidden contents

Gavin-son-son-Odegard

How does Cultivation figure in this conflict between Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

So, what people assume is that Cultivation is hiding. I would disagree with that. People in-world would assume that.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

FirstSelector

Was Cultivation close enough to when Odium got  Honor, to know how to fight back?

Brandon Sanderson

Heheheheh. I would say yes.

FirstSelector

And Cultivation, is she--

Brandon Sanderson

She is still there.

FirstSelector

Alive and kicking. Okay, you've said that before--

Brandon Sanderson

She is alive and kicking.

FirstSelector

And she can probably know how to not turn her back to the--

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I mean... She has learned from the experiences of others.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

Cultivation has intervened 3 times in the last ~8000 years or so?
Sure, that we know off, but she is still quite hands off by Shard standards.

Endowment, Honor, Odium, Autonomy, Ruin and Preservation all seem to be more involved than she ever was (based on what we know). So among the Shards we have actually seen, she is the least active. Though now she is overtaken by Harmony.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Point me please where is the word individually in OP

The thread name 'most dangerous individual'.

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For me those things are important. Very important. Could Kelsier walk up to TLR and kill him? No, never. And yet he abolished him and killed him indirectly. Not because he was "individually dangerous" but because he was a charismatic smart person who with limited resources created a rebellion against him and trained Vin who killed him. That's why Kelsier is dangerous.

I mean not exactly, Kelsier was possibly being nudged along by Preservation, and the only reason TLR got killed was because of Preservation empowering Vin.
Without Preservation's influence, Kelsier would have failed like everyone before him.

There were charismatic leaders before, Kelsier simply happened to be the right person in the right time.

Between the two, TLR would be the more dangerous then Kelsier, and by far.

Edited May 27, 2023 by therunner

[The Stick]

If Kelsier and the Ghostbloods know how to make Trellium-Harmonium nukes, I would say they are the most dangerous. Otherwise, Susebron is unstoppable. Sure, his awakening is seemingly nowhere near as powerful as other Invested Arts. However, he is above ninth heightening. This means he can awaken steel. He needs only 20,000 breaths to retain ninth heightening. He has 50,000 breaths. Awakening steel costs 1,000 breaths. This means he could make 30 Nightbloods. One Nightblood is enough to terrify Hoid and the vessels. 30 unsheathed Nightbloods could probably cripple a Shard.

[therunner]

41 minutes ago, The Stick said:

If Kelsier and the Ghostbloods know how to make Trellium-Harmonium nukes, I would say they are the most dangerous.

Same could be said about Dalinar and anti-Investiture.
And unlike Ghostbloods (who have to get Trellium god knows how), Dalinar can create Investiture on demand.

41 minutes ago, The Stick said:

 This means he could make 30 Nightbloods.

No, Endowment was involved in creation of Nightblood, so Susebron cannot do that. At most he can create 30ish of Awakened Swords like Azure has, and those are vastly less powerful, more on the level of Deadeye Shardblade.
Highly likely Nightblood is unique, and no sword like him will be created again, unless Shard gets involved.

[The Stick]

Would you mind providing the WoB saying that because I do not recall that.

Edit: Is it this WoB?

OrangeJedi

When Nightblood created, was Endowment involved in any way more than normal?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question, you qualified that the right way! I would say yes, but maybe not to the extent you're thinking.

OrangeJedi

Normal being using Endowment's Investiture to Awaken. There's something special.

Brandon Sanderson

I would say, there is something special.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10871

 

Edit 2: Or this WoB

Khyrindor

Did the Five Scholars ever speak directly with Endowment in a way that they would remember?

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

*thinking noises* I'll RAFO that.

 

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/370/#e11814

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by The Stick

[therunner]

43 minutes ago, The Stick said:

Would you mind providing the WoB saying that because I do not recall that.

Edit: Is it this WoB?

OrangeJedi

When Nightblood created, was Endowment involved in any way more than normal?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question, you qualified that the right way! I would say yes, but maybe not to the extent you're thinking.

OrangeJedi

Normal being using Endowment's Investiture to Awaken. There's something special.

Brandon Sanderson

I would say, there is something special.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10871

 

Edit 2: Or this WoB

Khyrindor

Did the Five Scholars ever speak directly with Endowment in a way that they would remember?

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

*thinking noises* I'll RAFO that.

 

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/370/#e11814

 

The first one.

[The Stick]

I took that to mean she gave them the knowledge of the proper Soulcasting of steel. I do not think she helped make it or something like that. I am of the school of thought that it can be replicated if Vasher is cooperating.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Fair point.
Though Dalinar can literally do the same, and in far easier way.

He lacks skills for now and he isn't a person who would deadeye Stormfather just because. But that's still true.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

The thread name 'most dangerous individual'.

Which means a person. I explained why I included other factors already.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

There were charismatic leaders before, Kelsier simply happened to be the right person in the right time.

Were they? In most recent TFE history there were none - the biggest rebellion they could create was few hundreds people. Rebellions of that magnitude that Kelsier made were during early centuries of Rashek's rule.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Between the two, TLR would be the more dangerous then Kelsier, and by far.

Yes, but you know, he's dead now  

 

2 hours ago, The Stick said:

If Kelsier and the Ghostbloods know how to make Trellium-Harmonium nukes, I would say they are the most dangerous. Otherwise, Susebron is unstoppable. Sure, his awakening is seemingly nowhere near as powerful as other Invested Arts. However, he is above ninth heightening. This means he can awaken steel. He needs only 20,000 breaths to retain ninth heightening. He has 50,000 breaths. Awakening steel costs 1,000 breaths. This means he could make 30 Nightbloods. One Nightblood is enough to terrify Hoid and the vessels. 30 unsheathed Nightbloods could probably cripple a Shard.

Endowment was involved and Ruin somewhat as well - he has no knowledge of how to create a type 4 entity not to mention Nightblood. And unbounded Bondsmith is more dangerous than Nightblood

Spoiler

OrangeJedi

When Nightblood created, was Endowment involved in any way more than normal?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question, you qualified that the right way! I would say yes, but maybe not to the extent you're thinking.

OrangeJedi

Normal being using Endowment's Investiture to Awaken. There's something special.

Brandon Sanderson

I would say, there is something special.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Walin

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. 

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Scott Beckman (paraphrased)

Which is scarier... Which is more dangerous: a sword that wants to destroy evil, or a Bondsmith with no bounds?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A Bondsmith with no bounds.

Scott Beckman (paraphrased)

Can an unbound Bondsmith take that sword's... ability for himself?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not exactly, but something similar. Probably not what you're thinking, but he could essentially take what that sword is, yes.

Miscellaneous 2022 (Sept. 17, 2022)

 

23 minutes ago, The Stick said:

I took that to mean she gave them the knowledge of the proper Soulcasting of steel. I do not think she helped make it or something like that. I am of the school of thought that it can be replicated if Vasher is cooperating.

Soulcasting? Where did you get that from? There is no Soulcasting on Nalthis.

[The Stick]

I mistyped. I meant awakening. Sorry.

Edited May 27, 2023 by The Stick

[Frustration]

Ishar, no question in my mind about it.

[The Stick]

Ishar is terrifying because he is a crazy swordsman, unchained bondsmiths, has tons of forbidden knowledge, and is completely insane.

Edited May 27, 2023 by The Stick

[Duxredux]

I'm voting Ishar. Look at his track record. He's the only non-Shard we know that literally made a planet uninhabitable. He founded the Knights Radiant and convinced a lot of very important people, including Honor, that the Oathpact was a good idea (getting immortality and the Bondsmith Honorblade in the bargain I might add) after they knew he nuked a planet. His idea trapped Odium for thousands of years. Now he's unhinged and an unchained Bondsmith. And he still just convinced Dalinar, whose bond to the Stormfather he just tried to steal, to meet up with him in Shinovar. His knack for getting people who already know how his plans turn out to go along with his next scheme is perhaps as scary as his Bondsmith powers.

The dude wants to become Adonalsium. Possibly even more than Odium, they shouldn't let Ishar out of the Rosharan system, especially if he had his Honorblade and was still insane. Maybe not even if he was sane. His ambition, knowledge, chutzpah, charisma, and power are all formidable.

[The Stick]

You make an excellent point on his charisma I had not thought about. To lead Tukar in a holy war after naming yourself God is  quite the accomplishment. 

[cometaryorbit]

If "(old version)" means Blackthorn Dalinar not Bondsmith Dalinar, and the no-Shards rule means we get the non-Ascended versions of Vin, Kelsier, and Taravangian and TLR without the Well...

...then probably Ishar, for the reasons @Duxredux stated.

Though TLR in his younger days - say a century or two after his conquest, before he got overconfident and bored - would give him a run for his money - especially if "on a wide scale" means TLR gets his mind-controlled koloss armies and a vast empire that he rules as god-king. TFE is probably larger and more powerful than Tukar, though we know so little about Tukar.

Outside the listed people, it depends on what counts as too close to a Shard - Threnody's Evil killed a continent.

Edited May 29, 2023 by cometaryorbit