in Truth,watcher of tv Posted May 25, 2023 Report Share Posted May 25, 2023 (edited) Bear with me on this one. We know that the first Nahel Surgebinders got access to all the Surges (I would guess favouring the ones closest to their spren), but then Ishar came along and bound them, creating the Knights Radiant with two Surges each. They (Knights Radiant) have more than just the two Surges though, and I think the additional stuff, common to basically all Orders, is related to all ten Surges. They are heavily restricted and mostly outside the Radiant's direct control, but they also seem to me to touch on the Spiritual aspect of the Surge much more than a Radiant's main two. Also, their effect seems to be boosted if the Surge is one of the Radiant's main two. Progression: they get from the start as the self-healing from holding Stormlight, more potent than normal Regrowth as it can cure lifelong poor eyesight and epilepsy, even as far as to change a person's sex. Transportation: allows them to physically manifest their spren as Shardblade and Plate. Division: the infamous cutting edge of a Shardblade, cutting in all three realms. Cohesion: possibly relating to the ability to completely reshape the Shardblade on a whim and to a lesser extent Shardplate. Adhesion: extending the Nahel bond to others, creating Squires. Gravitation: gathering a swarm of loosely bonded spren to form Shardplate. Abrasion: less sure about this one but it could maybe be the enhanced reflexes and agility granted by Shardplate? Tension: same as Abrasion but for the strength of Plate? Illumination: might be the telepathic link between a Radiant and spren, especially while the Blade is summoned? Transformation: no clue So... thoughts? Edited May 25, 2023 by in Truth,watcher of tv I misremembered :( 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted May 25, 2023 Report Share Posted May 25, 2023 3 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: We know that the first Nahel Surgebinders got access to all the Surges From where did you get this conclusion? Are you perhaps referencing what happened on Ashyn? If so, we don't know if what was used there correlates much (or at all) with the 10 Rosharan surges. We just know that Rosharans would term any use of similar investiture with their local terms (such as any illusion based magic being "Lightweaving"). WoBs: Spoiler Quote Shardbound Were the Surges used by humans, the ones that destroyed their previous home, the same as the ones that the Radiants are using. Brandon Sanderson Yes, same basic principles. Magic system slightly different. Same basic principles. Quote Brandon Sanderson Yes. And for instance, there were not Elsecallers to get people between Ashyn and Roshar, but on Roshar they would explain what happened there as Elsecalling. Quote Brandon Sanderson Obviously Elsecalling’s not Bondsmithing, but you know that a Bondsmith powered a big Elsecalling [to migrate from Ashyn], one of the big things you’ve seen a Bondsmith do is get people between planets. And you have seen people use AonDor to Elsecall. You’ve seen them Lightweave, you’ve seen them do a lot of these things. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 25, 2023 Report Share Posted May 25, 2023 5 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: We know that the first Nahel Surgebinders got access to all the Surges No, we don't know that. What is your source? The text supports the opposite, as first Surgebinders were the result of spren copying Honorblades and their effects, and every Honorblade gives only 2 Surges, therefore early spren bonds would also grant only two Surges. Ishar bound them to likely make sure none of them would do some crazy stupid things with this potentially unlimited power, like for example destroying their planet. He knows a thing or two about that. 5 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: They have more than just the two Surges though, and I think the additional stuff, common to basically all Orders, is related to all ten Surges. The surgebinding diagram opposes this idea, every order is connected only to 2 Surges: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Surgebinding#/media/File:TWoK_Front_Endsheet.jpg 5 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: Progression: they get form the start as the self-healing from holding Stormlight, more potent than normal Regrowth as it can cure lifelong poor eyesight and epilepsy, even as far as to change a person's sex. That's because this is the nature of healing. General, across the whole Cosmere. Stormlight is easily accessible and usable and it naturally heals people. Not really a Surge of Progression, just the nature of Stormlight and healing. 5 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: Transportation: allows them to physically manifest their spren as Shardblade and Plate. They get pulled over by the bond, the stronger the bond the more spren are able to manifest physically. That works for other spren too - Windspren sometimes manifest themself in CR, Mandras and emotion spren get pulled into PR etc - that's more the nature of spren rather than the Surge of Transportation. 5 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: Division: the infamous cutting edge of a Shardblade, cutting in all three realms. Shardblade cuts by converting matter of the object into investiture, it doesn't destroy it. Spoiler [deleted] Given Brandon's answer to a block of Cheese stopping a shardblade, how does the last clap work? Brandon Sanderson [...] The Blade does, by necessity of my understanding of the relevant physics, need to be able to vaporize a tiny bit of matter into Investiture while cutting, in order to create space for the Blade to continue to slide through. This is related to why it doesn't cut things with souls. [...] General Reddit 2022 (March 19, 2022) 5 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: Adhesion: extending the Nahel bond to others, creating Squires. Is every Connection the result of Surge of Adhesion to you? Is every Rosharan connection to their planet the result of Adhesion? It's the other way around, Connections exist naturally, and the Surge of Adhesion allows you to manipulate them, create new ones. 5 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: Gravitation: gathering a swarm of loosely bonded spren to form Shardplate. And what does it have to do with the Surge of Gravity? That's because of the Connection. 5 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: Illumination: might be the telepathic link between a Radiant and spren, especially while the Blade is summoned? Connection again. I see what you're doing and I know what you mean by this. There are connections you can draw between abilities of Radiants and their spren and some Surges. But I don't think that's because of Surges. Those things are just natural, they're a part of the Nahel Bond, of a spren's nature etc. They just exist, like gravity isn't because of the Surge of Gravitation. Surges allow manipulation of certain Cosmere properties, Cosmere laws, but those exist beyond Surges. Connections aren't because of Adhesion, they exist without this Surge. Connections grant powers, they grant knowledge, languages, they tie souls together. Adhesion is just a way of Connection manipulation. But not every Connection is made with the use of Adhesion, not every power granted by Connections is because of the Surge of Adhesion. The same with Transportation - Perpendicularity doesn't use the Surge of Transportation. It just uses the same basic principles defined by the nature of Cosmere but works differently, by a different magic system. It's more the other way around - the Surge of Transportation is Rosharan way of copying naturally existing Perpendicularities. The Surge of Gravity is Rosharan way of copying and manipulation force of Gravity. The Surge of Adhesion is Rosharan way of accessing and manipulating Connections. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Milkgod Posted May 25, 2023 Report Share Posted May 25, 2023 6 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: even as far as to change a person's sex. Where is this confirmed? if at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 25, 2023 Report Share Posted May 25, 2023 (edited) 40 minutes ago, The_Milkgod said: Where is this confirmed? if at all. Here: Spoiler Headpat_Thot The Reshi King from Rysn's interlude is probably trans. This statement is based on a few points 1: Everybody but Rysn (who's whole thing is that she's extremely green and unaware of the world) uses He/Him pronouns to refer to the reshi king. 2: When Rysn first meets the king, She genders him as a man, until she notices that he has breasts. This suggests that he has taken measures to present more masculine. 3: When Rysn refuses to call the king "king" his son loses his temper and tries to send her away. Up until then, he had been firm, but that was the point where he outright tells her to leave. There is one line in the text where The king's son says "gender is irrelevant" in response to a question Rysn has about the king's gender. I will say that this was written before the Author stopped using Gender and Sex interchangeably according to the WoB database. Beyond that, I doubt the language they were speaking (thaylen) would have a robust understanding of sex and gender. Credar /u/mistborn was this your intention with the scene if you can confirm it? Or was it more the Egyptian style Hatshepsut-like others are mentioning? Brandon Sanderson I love Hatshepsut as an interesting quirk of history, and have long thought about ways to incorporate something similar. I did have that partially in mind when I was writing this, but more in the way that the culture was trying to understand him, rather than his own view of himself. The king sees himself as male, and wishes to be treated that way--not just in title. In fact, in the coming months, you will see this character again briefly in some scenes I've already written, if you keep an eye out. Jacky_Ragnarovna ooh are we going back to the Reshi Isles? Will we get a beach episode? Brandon Sanderson Ha. RAFO. General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 12, 2020) Spoiler pelolep So the Reshi King canonically trans, right? I was hoping so when he was first mentioned, and I know it's been asked before if a trans Radiant would "heal" towards their true gender. Brandon Sanderson Yes. And this is what happened. Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020) That's because of how healing works in Cosmere. It matches your physical body to your spiritual ideal filtered by your cognitive perception. If you can change the way you view yourself, you can change your physical characteristics. Spoiler Questioner I notice that Stormlight seems to be a bit volatile in how well it heals or who it heals. Because it seems like Renarin's eyesight would have been a long term problem, kinda like Rysn's legs maybe and Lopen's arm. But Lopen's arm got healed, Rysn's legs didn't and Kaladin's scars didn't. So I didn't know if there was a reason for those things. Brandon Sanderson So Stormlight healing, there's a couple things that have to be considered. But in reference to what you're saying, the person's perception of themselves is a huge part of it. The way healing works in the cosmere is, you've got the three versions of yourself. You've got your Physical version, your Cognitive version, and your Spiritual version, And a lot of Stormlight is taking your Physical version and matching it to the Spiritual version which is your ideal self. But it has to be filtered through the lens of your mind, and things like this. I almost always--probably should say always--am using it to reinforce some sort of character attribute. The fact that Lopen never saw himself, even though he only had one arm, as being disabled, as a big influence, versus whether Kaladin feels deserves his brands or not. Does that makes sense? And those are two very different things that influence how the healing works. And you will see that as a metaphor and theme, if you watch what heals and what doesn't. Orem signing (March 10, 2018) Edit: Theoretically, a human can heal into a Singer if some specific circumstances are met. Spoiler learhpa Given that Stormlight healing matches to mental self-image (as shown by both the Lopen and by the Reshi monarch), could a really powerful hypnotist change someone's self-image in a way that would affect Stormlight healing? Could a powerful hypnotist use Stormlight healing to change a human into a listener? Brandon Sanderson Theoretically possible...to an extent. There is a limit to this, but the limitation is the amount of Investiture you have and access to Stormlight—or you know, Voidlight—can evidence this. Transformations that are happening in the storm to the listener forms are involved in this. That could theoretically happen to a human as well. But you would basically—what most likely would happen is it would have to involve a specific set of circumstances and then entering the storm, and then exiting as a listener—that could happen. You guys ask some farfetched things—that one's not so farfetched. It does require some specificity, but it could happen. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) Edited May 25, 2023 by alder24 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyKaizen Posted May 25, 2023 Report Share Posted May 25, 2023 Ok, I feel stupid for asking this, but Spoiler where in the text is it shown/hinted at that the king was able to transition? I say that I feel stupid, because I feel like I should have noticed? I searched online, and have been looking through Dawnshard (because that seems like the most likely place for it to be) and I'm coming up empty. I don't like it when I miss things (it makes my brain hurt), so if someone could give me a page number, or quote it, I would appreciate it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 25, 2023 Report Share Posted May 25, 2023 41 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said: Ok, I feel stupid for asking this, but Hide contents where in the text is it shown/hinted at that the king was able to transition? I say that I feel stupid, because I feel like I should have noticed? I searched online, and have been looking through Dawnshard (because that seems like the most likely place for it to be) and I'm coming up empty. I don't like it when I miss things (it makes my brain hurt), so if someone could give me a page number, or quote it, I would appreciate it. There are no stupid questions (at least some people says so, I don't believe them, but this one isn't a stupid question). It's easy to miss. I missed it too, before searching for it a few days ago. It's in ch 3 of Dawnshard, I don't have an English version to quote it. In Rysn interlude in WoR he was a women, in Dawnshard he is a man, and was said to change his appearance to match his gender after bonding a spren and becoming a Dustbringer. Check his coppermind page for more sources: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ral-na 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
in Truth,watcher of tv Posted May 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2023 3 hours ago, Treamayne said: From where did you get this conclusion? Are you perhaps referencing what happened on Ashyn? 1 hour ago, alder24 said: No, we don't know that. What is your source? The text supports the opposite, as first Surgebinders were the result of spren copying Honorblades and their effects, and every Honorblade gives only 2 Surges, therefore early spren bonds would also grant only two Surges. Argh sorry, looks like today I'm a case study on the fallibility of memory. I got this into my head as a possibility and thought I had read it somewhere. If a relevant quote is out there, I haven't found it. I've edited the post to reflect my foolishness. Anyway the theory doesn't rest on that idea. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: The surgebinding diagram opposes this idea, every order is connected only to 2 Surges: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Surgebinding#/media/File:TWoK_Front_Endsheet.jpg Well yeah, those are the Surges they manipulate and that shape them, but the table doesn't mention things like Blade and Plate, which I'm talking about. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: That's because this is the nature of healing. General, across the whole Cosmere. Stormlight is easily accessible and usable and it naturally heals people. Not really a Surge of Progression, just the nature of Stormlight and healing. Do you mean the nature of Investiture? because holding a lot of Investiture doesn't automatically heal you. We've only seen this once on another world. I'm saying this is why it's the nature of Stormlight to heal. Spoiler Elantrians have a comparable ability to heal, otherwise holding a lot of Investiture gives you great health but not healing. Look at Awakeners and the Returned, all the Allomancers who basically bathed in Investiture, even Rysn with a Dawnshard we get no mention of healing. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: They get pulled over by the bond, the stronger the bond the more spren are able to manifest physically. That works for other spren too - Windspren sometimes manifest themself in CR, Mandras and emotion spren get pulled into PR etc - that's more the nature of spren rather than the Surge of Transportation. But I'm saying the Bond can do this because of Spiritual Transportation, making god metals appear with a thought. The examples you give aren't manifesting physically, likely Transportation, yes, but on a completely different scale. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Shardblade cuts by converting matter of the object into investiture, it doesn't destroy it. Okay, I don't understand your point here. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Is every Connection the result of Surge of Adhesion to you? Is every Rosharan connection to their planet the result of Adhesion? It's the other way around, Connections exist naturally, and the Surge of Adhesion allows you to manipulate them, create new ones. No, I would say this is. Chill 2 hours ago, alder24 said: And what does it have to do with the Surge of Gravity? That's because of the Connection. As I see it, in a Spiritual sense Gravitation is about lower order Connections focused on a single point, which is basically a description of the Plate swarm. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Connection again. Yep, probably. Other than the sensory abilities of the Plate I couldn't think of anything particularly Illuminationy. Was just throwing out an idea for this one. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: I see what you're doing and I know what you mean by this. There are connections you can draw between abilities of Radiants and their spren and some Surges. But I don't think that's because of Surges. Those things are just natural, they're a part of the Nahel Bond, of a spren's nature etc. They just exist, like gravity isn't because of the Surge of Gravitation. Surges allow manipulation of certain Cosmere properties, Cosmere laws, but those exist beyond Surges. Connections aren't because of Adhesion, they exist without this Surge. Connections grant powers, they grant knowledge, languages, they tie souls together. Adhesion is just a way of Connection manipulation. But not every Connection is made with the use of Adhesion, not every power granted by Connections is because of the Surge of Adhesion. The same with Transportation - Perpendicularity doesn't use the Surge of Transportation. It just uses the same basic principles defined by the nature of Cosmere but works differently, by a different magic system. It's more the other way around - the Surge of Transportation is Rosharan way of copying naturally existing Perpendicularities. The Surge of Gravity is Rosharan way of copying and manipulation force of Gravity. The Surge of Adhesion is Rosharan way of accessing and manipulating Connections. Yeah nah, you've misunderstood me. I was just explaining the Knight Radiant's extra abilities and bonuses with their own magic system. Pretty reasonable I'd say. I am still interested in your thoughts on the theory through my framework. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyKaizen Posted May 25, 2023 Report Share Posted May 25, 2023 17 minutes ago, alder24 said: There are no stupid questions (at least some people says so, I don't believe them, but this one isn't a stupid question). It's easy to miss. I missed it too, before searching for it a few days ago. It's in ch 3 of Dawnshard, I don't have an English version to quote it. In Rysn interlude in WoR he was a women, in Dawnshard he is a man, and was said to change his appearance to match his gender after bonding a spren and becoming a Dustbringer. Check his coppermind page for more sources: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ral-na Ok, I got it..I was being dense. Thanks! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 25, 2023 Report Share Posted May 25, 2023 1 minute ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: Well yeah, those are the Surges they manipulate and that shape them, but the table doesn't mention things like Blade and Plate, which I'm talking about. Those are spren, pulled into PR, they're not of Radiant, nor Radiant manipulates them this way, they follow his intent. They turn their cognitive form into a physical form. 5 minutes ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: Do you mean the nature of Investiture? because holding a lot of Investiture doesn't automatically heal you. We've only seen this once on another world. I'm saying this is why it's the nature of Stormlight to heal. It's the nature of Stormlight. Not just any investiture, as in most cases other types of investiture are more limited (you could still make it work by unkeying it), but Mistborn spoilers: Spoiler Vin was tortured and her body and bones were broken in HoA, then she started ingesting Mists and was fully able to move and fight. I don't remember if it was said, but Mists must have healed her, otherwise her arms and legs would have still been broken. Rysn might not heal yet (she didn't suffer any injury, and her perception prevents her from healing her legs), but Hoid does heal because of Dawnshard he used to hold. But the nature of Stormlight (and other Rosharan lights) is becuase of interaction of Shards and Roshar, which formed magic systems there. 10 minutes ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: Okay, I don't understand your point here. That they don't cut by Division. Division burns, not turns objects into investiture. 12 minutes ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: Yeah nah, you've misunderstood me. I was just explaining the Knight Radiant's extra abilities and bonuses with their own magic system. Pretty reasonable I'd say. I am still interested in your thoughts on the theory through my framework. I do understand it as you said it, I just think those things exist outside of Surges, that's because of the nature of Cosmere, not Surges. It's not because of Surgebinding, it's because of natural laws that exist outside of Surgebinding. Those might seem similar, and one can make a reasonable argument that Surges are the reason behind it, but Surges just work under the same natural laws as all those things that you mentioned, especially spren. That's why they work similar, that's why you can "classify" some effects under those Surges. Elantris spoilers: Spoiler Seons and Skaze can be turned into a Shardblade, despite them not being connected to Surges and Surgebinding. That's because they're like spren, working unter the same natural laws of Cosmere: Spoiler paperstones Could a seon or a skaze turn into some sort of Shardblade on their home planet? Brandon Sanderson That is theoretically possible. They work under the same fundamentals but they would need to have something to pull them more into the Physical Realm. Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted May 25, 2023 Report Share Posted May 25, 2023 1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said: Ok, I feel stupid for asking this, but Hide contents where in the text is it shown/hinted at that the king was able to transition? I say that I feel stupid, because I feel like I should have noticed? I searched online, and have been looking through Dawnshard (because that seems like the most likely place for it to be) and I'm coming up empty. I don't like it when I miss things (it makes my brain hurt), so if someone could give me a page number, or quote it, I would appreciate it. 49 minutes ago, alder24 said: There are no stupid questions (at least some people says so, I don't believe them, but this one isn't a stupid question). It's easy to miss. I missed it too, before searching for it a few days ago. It's in ch 3 of Dawnshard, I don't have an English version to quote it. In Rysn interlude in WoR he was a women, in Dawnshard he is a man, and was said to change his appearance to match his gender after bonding a spren and becoming a Dustbringer. Check his coppermind page for more sources: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ral-na References Spoiler WoR Interlude 3: Quote No, Rysn thought with a start as the king turned. It was a woman, old enough that her hair was greying, but not so old that she was bent with age. Someone stepped out onto the shelf behind Rysn. Younger, he wore the standard wrap and tassels. His hair was in two braids that fell over tan, bare shoulders. When he spoke, there wasn’t even a hint of an accent to his voice. “The king wishes to know why his old trading partner, Vstim, has not come in person, and has instead sent a child in his place.” “And are you the king?” Rysn asked the newcomer. The man laughed. “You stand beside him, yet ask that of me?” Rysn looked toward the robed figure. The robes were tied with the front open enough to show that the “king” definitely had breasts. “We are led by a king,” the newcomer said. “Gender is irrelevant.” It seemed to Rysn that gender was part of the definition, but it wasn’t worth arguing over. Dawnshard Ch 3: Quote He strode toward them, hands out. “Greetings! And I am the Lopen, Windrunner, poet, and your most humble servant. You must be King Ral-na!” He’d been warned the king would be the one in the robes. He was a short man with greying hair, though his robes parted down the front to show firm pectoral muscles. He was attended by a group of fierce men in wraps, carrying spears. “I speak for the king,” one of them said in pretty good Alethi. The tall figure wore his hair in two long braids. “You may call me Talik.” . . . Lopen took the hand. “Before you take me down,” Talik said, “I have a . . . somewhat delicate question for you. Our king, who is one of my parents, has undergone some unusual physical changes lately. They have transformed him in dramatic ways, and at first we thought it was a gift of our god, as he was not born looking as he does now. We now realize this transformation is in relation to a spren he has been seeing. It is why he agreed to make this long trip.” “Your king is Radiant!” Lopen said. “What kind?” “He can make the very air seem to catch flame,” Talik said. “And sees a spren that burns through the inside of objects in curious treelike patterns.” “Dustbringer,” Lopen said. 51 minutes ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: Do you mean the nature of Investiture? because holding a lot of Investiture doesn't automatically heal you. We've only seen this once on another world. I'm saying this is why it's the nature of Stormlight to heal. 29 minutes ago, alder24 said: It's the nature of Stormlight. Not just any investiture, as in most cases other types of investiture are more limited Many Spoilers Spoiler To be fair, it is also possibly the nature of how the investiture is channeled. Stormlight is raw keyed SR investiture captured in a physical gem until the Radiant breaths it in; while an Elantrian is always connected to the Dor (also keyed raw investiture) - so both are using the investiture in the physical realm while still maintaining it's Connection to the source realm (SR adn CR respectively). However, a Returned's divine breath is a SR aspect on their spiritweb (until they expend it - then it heals); Awakeners are endowing breath to people or things, but it is still a SR thing that only transitions briefly between realms (maybe - still debated in the Warbreaker section - but since wind won't affect breath transfer it can't really be in the physical realm IMO) And an allomancer is only using metals as a key to connect to the SR investiture - but the metal determines the "shape" of the power released (much like an Aon) so it can only heal when the "key" is F-Gold. TL;DR: There is probably a connection between why both Stormlight and Dor heal the way they do. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Milkgod Posted May 26, 2023 Report Share Posted May 26, 2023 22 hours ago, alder24 said: Here: Hide contents Headpat_Thot The Reshi King from Rysn's interlude is probably trans. This statement is based on a few points 1: Everybody but Rysn (who's whole thing is that she's extremely green and unaware of the world) uses He/Him pronouns to refer to the reshi king. 2: When Rysn first meets the king, She genders him as a man, until she notices that he has breasts. This suggests that he has taken measures to present more masculine. 3: When Rysn refuses to call the king "king" his son loses his temper and tries to send her away. Up until then, he had been firm, but that was the point where he outright tells her to leave. There is one line in the text where The king's son says "gender is irrelevant" in response to a question Rysn has about the king's gender. I will say that this was written before the Author stopped using Gender and Sex interchangeably according to the WoB database. Beyond that, I doubt the language they were speaking (thaylen) would have a robust understanding of sex and gender. Credar /u/mistborn was this your intention with the scene if you can confirm it? Or was it more the Egyptian style Hatshepsut-like others are mentioning? Brandon Sanderson I love Hatshepsut as an interesting quirk of history, and have long thought about ways to incorporate something similar. I did have that partially in mind when I was writing this, but more in the way that the culture was trying to understand him, rather than his own view of himself. The king sees himself as male, and wishes to be treated that way--not just in title. In fact, in the coming months, you will see this character again briefly in some scenes I've already written, if you keep an eye out. Jacky_Ragnarovna ooh are we going back to the Reshi Isles? Will we get a beach episode? Brandon Sanderson Ha. RAFO. General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 12, 2020) Hide contents pelolep So the Reshi King canonically trans, right? I was hoping so when he was first mentioned, and I know it's been asked before if a trans Radiant would "heal" towards their true gender. Brandon Sanderson Yes. And this is what happened. Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020) That's because of how healing works in Cosmere. It matches your physical body to your spiritual ideal filtered by your cognitive perception. If you can change the way you view yourself, you can change your physical characteristics. Hide contents Questioner I notice that Stormlight seems to be a bit volatile in how well it heals or who it heals. Because it seems like Renarin's eyesight would have been a long term problem, kinda like Rysn's legs maybe and Lopen's arm. But Lopen's arm got healed, Rysn's legs didn't and Kaladin's scars didn't. So I didn't know if there was a reason for those things. Brandon Sanderson So Stormlight healing, there's a couple things that have to be considered. But in reference to what you're saying, the person's perception of themselves is a huge part of it. The way healing works in the cosmere is, you've got the three versions of yourself. You've got your Physical version, your Cognitive version, and your Spiritual version, And a lot of Stormlight is taking your Physical version and matching it to the Spiritual version which is your ideal self. But it has to be filtered through the lens of your mind, and things like this. I almost always--probably should say always--am using it to reinforce some sort of character attribute. The fact that Lopen never saw himself, even though he only had one arm, as being disabled, as a big influence, versus whether Kaladin feels deserves his brands or not. Does that makes sense? And those are two very different things that influence how the healing works. And you will see that as a metaphor and theme, if you watch what heals and what doesn't. Orem signing (March 10, 2018) Edit: Theoretically, a human can heal into a Singer if some specific circumstances are met. Hide contents learhpa Given that Stormlight healing matches to mental self-image (as shown by both the Lopen and by the Reshi monarch), could a really powerful hypnotist change someone's self-image in a way that would affect Stormlight healing? Could a powerful hypnotist use Stormlight healing to change a human into a listener? Brandon Sanderson Theoretically possible...to an extent. There is a limit to this, but the limitation is the amount of Investiture you have and access to Stormlight—or you know, Voidlight—can evidence this. Transformations that are happening in the storm to the listener forms are involved in this. That could theoretically happen to a human as well. But you would basically—what most likely would happen is it would have to involve a specific set of circumstances and then entering the storm, and then exiting as a listener—that could happen. You guys ask some farfetched things—that one's not so farfetched. It does require some specificity, but it could happen. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) Interesting. This is from one of the interludes in WoR right? I should have I knew about the whole spiritual perception with Kaladin but hadn't thought of how it could change someone to such a large extent. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
in Truth,watcher of tv Posted May 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2023 On 25/05/2023 at 11:51 PM, alder24 said: Those are spren, pulled into PR, they're not of Radiant, nor Radiant manipulates them this way, they follow his intent. They turn their cognitive form into a physical form. Yes, and they can't do it without a Knight Radiant of a high enough Ideal. Spren don't turn into bits of armour naturally. Why couldn't it be a function of Transportation that emerges from the Bond. On 25/05/2023 at 11:51 PM, alder24 said: It's the nature of Stormlight. Not just any investiture, as in most cases other types of investiture are more limited (you could still make it work by unkeying it), but Mistborn spoilers: Reveal hidden contents Vin was tortured and her body and bones were broken in HoA, then she started ingesting Mists and was fully able to move and fight. I don't remember if it was said, but Mists must have healed her, otherwise her arms and legs would have still been broken. Rysn might not heal yet (she didn't suffer any injury, and her perception prevents her from healing her legs), but Hoid does heal because of Dawnshard he used to hold. But the nature of Stormlight (and other Rosharan lights) is becuase of interaction of Shards and Roshar, which formed magic systems there. Stormlight can cure a neurological illness you're born with, but a Dawnshard can't heal a spine broken a couple of years ago? Hoid has multiple things going on, you can't say it's because of the Dawnshard he's involved with. Look, if we put aside direct Shardic intervention, which includes Heralds, Fused, Hoid (he has some sort of arrangement with the Shards) and certain people in the process of Ascending, there are only two examples of Investiture automatically healing, one of which is the Knights Radiant. As you say, Stormlight is influenced by the Shards of Roshar, one of whose major powers is Progression. But really, we don't see Stormlight auto-healing except in the structure of the Knight's Radiant, so it's hard to definitely say either way. Cosmere spoilers: Spoiler The Elantrians are the other auto-healers of course, but they could easily have inscribed healing Aons into the Elantris effect. For instance, Ien Aons could be carved into the walls of the Rao or inlaid into the streets of the Ela. Still, Elantrians can die of things like heart disease while Invested, which I'm fairly sure wouldn't happen to a Radiant. Breaths are meant to some of the most inherently "no strings attached" Investiture, but they don't heal. As I implied above, Vin was Ascending when she took in the mists, so her being healed is a very special case. On 25/05/2023 at 11:51 PM, alder24 said: That they don't cut by Division. Division burns, not turns objects into investiture. You're thinking Physical Division, I'm talking Spiritual Division. It's literally dividing the Spiritual aspect. The 'turning some into Investiture' thing is clearly just a physics work around, not the main point of the power. On 25/05/2023 at 11:51 PM, alder24 said: I do understand it as you said it, I just think those things exist outside of Surges, that's because of the nature of Cosmere, not Surges. It's not because of Surgebinding, it's because of natural laws that exist outside of Surgebinding. Those might seem similar, and one can make a reasonable argument that Surges are the reason behind it, but Surges just work under the same natural laws as all those things that you mentioned, especially spren. That's why they work similar, that's why you can "classify" some effects under those Surges. I don't know why you keep bringing up the fact that these forces exist outside of the Surges. It's irrelevant. I'm talking about on Roshar, where these forces are codified in the magic as the Surges, where the spren are the source of that magic, where the spren are described as "living Surges" and are inherently linked to the Surges. The specific, Surge-based magic system I am solely talking about has strong themes of unity, interconnection and sharing of power. Why wouldn't these effects be Surges?! On 26/05/2023 at 0:33 AM, Treamayne said: Many Spoilers Reveal hidden contents To be fair, it is also possibly the nature of how the investiture is channeled. Stormlight is raw keyed SR investiture captured in a physical gem until the Radiant breaths it in; while an Elantrian is always connected to the Dor (also keyed raw investiture) - so both are using the investiture in the physical realm while still maintaining it's Connection to the source realm (SR adn CR respectively). However, a Returned's divine breath is a SR aspect on their spiritweb (until they expend it - then it heals); Awakeners are endowing breath to people or things, but it is still a SR thing that only transitions briefly between realms (maybe - still debated in the Warbreaker section - but since wind won't affect breath transfer it can't really be in the physical realm IMO) And an allomancer is only using metals as a key to connect to the SR investiture - but the metal determines the "shape" of the power released (much like an Aon) so it can only heal when the "key" is F-Gold. TL;DR: There is probably a connection between why both Stormlight and Dor heal the way they do. And Progression is the "key" for Stormlight healing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted May 27, 2023 Report Share Posted May 27, 2023 (edited) It's an interesting theory, but I doubt we can prove or disprove until we have more information. 58 minutes ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: one of whose major powers is Progression 58 minutes ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: And Progression is the "key" for Stormlight healing Do you perhaps mean Regrowth? Spoiler Progression is the Surge of Growth: Quote WoR Ch I-9 Wyndle sighed. “Spread the seeds on the frame.” She did so, throwing the handful of seeds at the window. “Your bond to me grants two primary classes of ability,” Wyndle said. “The first, manipulation of friction, you’ve already—don’t yawn at me!—discovered. We have been using that well for many weeks now, and it is time for you to learn the second, the power of Growth. You aren’t ready for what was once known as Regrowth, the healing of—” Lift pressed her hand against the seeds, then summoned her awesomeness. She wasn’t sure how she did it. She just did. It had started right around when Wyndle had first appeared. He hadn’t talked then. She kind of missed those days. Her hand glowed faintly with white light, like vapor coming off the skin. The seeds that saw the light started to grow. Fast. Vines burst from the seeds and wormed into the cracks between the window and its frame. The vines grew at her will, making constricted, straining sounds. The glass cracked, then the window frame popped open. Lift grinned. Regrowth is the Healing: Quote WoR Ch I-9 She set Gawx on his back, face toward the sky. He wasn’t really anything to her, that was true. They’d barely just met, and he’d been a fool. She’d told him to go back. But this was who she was, who she had to be. I will remember those who have been forgotten. Lift leaned forward, touched her forehead to his, and breathed out. A shimmering something left her lips, a little cloud of glowing light. It hung in front of Gawx’s lips. Come on . . . It stirred, then drew in through his mouth. A hand took Lift by the shoulder, pulling her away from Gawx. She sagged, suddenly exhausted. Real exhausted, so much so that even standing was difficult. Darkness pulled her by the shoulder away from the crowd. “Come,” he said. Gawx stirred. The viziers gasped, their attention turning toward the youth as he groaned, then sat up. . . . “What application?” Darkness said. “He is a thief!” “He performed the miracle of Regrowth,” said one of the older scions. “He was dead and he returned. What better application could we ask for?” Quote WoR Ch 88 “I recognize you,” Szeth realized. “I’ve seen you somewhere before.” “You have.” Szeth struggled to rise. He managed to make it to his knees, then knelt back on them. “How?” he asked. “I waited until you crashed to the ground,” the man said, “until you were broken and mangled, your soul cut through, dead for certain. Then, I restored you.” “Impossible.” “Not if it is done before the brain dies. Like a drowned man restored to life with the proper ministrations, you could be restored with the right Surgebinding. If I had waited seconds longer, of course, it would have been too late. But surely you know this. Two of the Blades held by your people allow Regrowth. I suspect you have already seen the newly dead restored to life.” Quote OB Ch 38 “What is that woman doing?” Jasnah asked, curious. A younger woman met the limping men. A Radiant? She had the look about her, though she wasn’t armored. It was more her air of confidence, the way she settled them down and took something glowing from the pouch at her belt. “I remember this,” Dalinar said. “It’s one of those devices I mentioned from another vision. The ones that provide Regrowth, as they call it. Healing.” Navani’s eyes widened, and she beamed like a child who had been given a plate full of sweets for Middlefest. Of course, we don't know for sure if Regrowth is simply a facet in the Surge of Progression, or something like the Reverse Lashing where it is the Surge combination that affects how it functions. After all: Renarin's healing and Lift's do not seem very similar Which is itself inconclusive because Renarin isn't a normal Truthwatcher - and while they have referenced other Truthwatchers healing, they have not shown us to compare with what Renarin did in the Battle of Thaylen Field Lift is also not normal, since she uses Lifelight - and her Regrowth on Gawx looked much more like the passing of a Divine Breath Edited May 27, 2023 by Treamayne SPAG 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
in Truth,watcher of tv Posted May 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2023 53 minutes ago, Treamayne said: It's an interesting theory, but I doubt we can prove or disprove until we have more information. Of course, that's always the way between books. I mean, for 4 of the 6 Surges my explanation is wishy-washy to non-existent so I'm not making any claims to certainty. 57 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Do you perhaps mean Regrowth? Reveal hidden contents Progression is the Surge of Growth: Quote WoR Ch I-9 Wyndle sighed. “Spread the seeds on the frame.” She did so, throwing the handful of seeds at the window. “Your bond to me grants two primary classes of ability,” Wyndle said. “The first, manipulation of friction, you’ve already—don’t yawn at me!—discovered. We have been using that well for many weeks now, and it is time for you to learn the second, the power of Growth. You aren’t ready for what was once known as Regrowth, the healing of—” Lift pressed her hand against the seeds, then summoned her awesomeness. She wasn’t sure how she did it. She just did. It had started right around when Wyndle had first appeared. He hadn’t talked then. She kind of missed those days. Her hand glowed faintly with white light, like vapor coming off the skin. The seeds that saw the light started to grow. Fast. Vines burst from the seeds and wormed into the cracks between the window and its frame. The vines grew at her will, making constricted, straining sounds. The glass cracked, then the window frame popped open. Lift grinned. Regrowth is the Healing: Quote WoR Ch I-9 She set Gawx on his back, face toward the sky. He wasn’t really anything to her, that was true. They’d barely just met, and he’d been a fool. She’d told him to go back. But this was who she was, who she had to be. I will remember those who have been forgotten. Lift leaned forward, touched her forehead to his, and breathed out. A shimmering something left her lips, a little cloud of glowing light. It hung in front of Gawx’s lips. Come on . . . It stirred, then drew in through his mouth. A hand took Lift by the shoulder, pulling her away from Gawx. She sagged, suddenly exhausted. Real exhausted, so much so that even standing was difficult. Darkness pulled her by the shoulder away from the crowd. “Come,” he said. Gawx stirred. The viziers gasped, their attention turning toward the youth as he groaned, then sat up. . . . “What application?” Darkness said. “He is a thief!” “He performed the miracle of Regrowth,” said one of the older scions. “He was dead and he returned. What better application could we ask for?” Quote WoR Ch 88 “I recognize you,” Szeth realized. “I’ve seen you somewhere before.” “You have.” Szeth struggled to rise. He managed to make it to his knees, then knelt back on them. “How?” he asked. “I waited until you crashed to the ground,” the man said, “until you were broken and mangled, your soul cut through, dead for certain. Then, I restored you.” “Impossible.” “Not if it is done before the brain dies. Like a drowned man restored to life with the proper ministrations, you could be restored with the right Surgebinding. If I had waited seconds longer, of course, it would have been too late. But surely you know this. Two of the Blades held by your people allow Regrowth. I suspect you have already seen the newly dead restored to life.” Quote OB Ch 38 “What is that woman doing?” Jasnah asked, curious. A younger woman met the limping men. A Radiant? She had the look about her, though she wasn’t armored. It was more her air of confidence, the way she settled them down and took something glowing from the pouch at her belt. “I remember this,” Dalinar said. “It’s one of those devices I mentioned from another vision. The ones that provide Regrowth, as they call it. Healing.” Navani’s eyes widened, and she beamed like a child who had been given a plate full of sweets for Middlefest. Of course, we don't know for sure if Regrowth is simply a facet in the Surge of Progression, or something like the Reverse Lashing where it is the Surge combination that affects how it functions. After all: Renarin's healing and Lift's do not seem very similar Which is itself inconclusive because Renarin isn't a normal Truthwatcher - and while they have referenced other Truthwatchers healing, they have not shown us to compare with what Renarin did in the Battle of Thaylen Field Lift is also not normal, since she uses Lifelight - and her Regrowth on Gawx looked much more like the passing of a Divine Breath Regrowth and Growth are just different flavours of Progression. Check the coppermind. I said Progression because that's the power; Regrowth is the name for one of its applications. In the quotes you pulled up it says two of the Honourblades grant Regrowth (the second won't be the Dustbringer one). Renarin uses Progression normally, and Lift's Edgedancer powers work basically the same as other, as far as we know, so I don't know why you say their healing is different. Wyndle expected Lift to be able to do Growth so that's normal, and while we haven't seen a Truthwatcher use it they are so heavily associated with plants and light I will be shocked if they're not better than Edgedancers at it. What did Renarin do at Thaylen Field?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 27, 2023 Report Share Posted May 27, 2023 8 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: Yes, and they can't do it without a Knight Radiant of a high enough Ideal. Spren don't turn into bits of armour naturally. Why couldn't it be a function of Transportation that emerges from the Bond. Because it's a natural thing that resembles a surge of Transportation. They need higher Ideal because they need a stronger bond to anchor themself in PR, that's what allows them to transform into a physical god metal (which exists in all 3 realms at the same time, creating a black hole of some sorts). 8 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: Stormlight can cure a neurological illness you're born with, but a Dawnshard can't heal a spine broken a couple of years ago? Hoid has multiple things going on, you can't say it's because of the Dawnshard he's involved with. Perception... That's how healing in Cosmere works. Rysn views herself as crippled, Hoid doesn't. What I said is for now we don't know if the same rules of healing apply to Dawnshards or only to people that used to be Dawnshard. I believe it's the former. Both Hoid and Rysn don't need Stormlight to heal, we just hasn't have Rysn as an example yet. Healing isn't even the only thing Progression does, it makes things grow, Stormlight doesn't make people grow. 8 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: Cosmere spoilers: Cosmere spoilers: Spoiler They heal because that's the nature of the magic system, investiture of Dor and Elantrians, not because there is something written in Elantris walls. Elantrians existed before Elantris was built. And there is Returned healing, which has nothing in common with Stormlight or surge of Progression - again, that's a part of Cosmere nature. They can't heal themself, but they can heal others, because of the nature of Breaths which are of Endowment. Healing still works in the same way as everywhere else in Cosmere, because that's a natural part of Cosmere. Surge of Progression is just another manifestation of that nature. 8 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: You're thinking Physical Division, I'm talking Spiritual Division. It's literally dividing the Spiritual aspect. The 'turning some into Investiture' thing is clearly just a physics work around, not the main point of the power. What? No! That's literally the explanation of Shardblade cutting. It's not Division. Is there a spiritual Division? Something like that was never mentioned. And by what surge is Nightblood cutting? Or Azure's blade? Both are Shardblades, they are cutting in all 3 realms as well, what Surge is that? None, that's just the mechanism of Shardblades, defined by natural laws of Cosmere. 8 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: I don't know why you keep bringing up the fact that these forces exist outside of the Surges. It's irrelevant. I'm talking about on Roshar, where these forces are codified in the magic as the Surges, where the spren are the source of that magic, where the spren are described as "living Surges" and are inherently linked to the Surges. The specific, Surge-based magic system I am solely talking about has strong themes of unity, interconnection and sharing of power. Why wouldn't these effects be Surges?! That's very relevant. That's how it works. Surgebinding is another manifestation of those laws of Cosmere, but not everything on Roshar is because of Surgebinding - Roshar existed BEFORE Surgebinding was created, before Surges even existed. The same goes with sprens. But those natural laws of Cosmere always existed, since creation, Roshar was created and its nature is defined by those natural laws of Cosmere. That's how Stormlight works, because Stormlight is defined by laws of Investiture, that's how spren works, because they're defined by laws about Splinters, that's how healing works, because it's defined by laws regarding healing. etc. That's where it came from, from the nature of Cosmere, not specifically from Surges. Yes, all those things are part of the same magic system (multiple magic systems at once exist on Roshar), but they all work by outside forces and rules, not because of Surges. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
in Truth,watcher of tv Posted May 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2023 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Because it's a natural thing that resembles a surge of Transportation. They need higher Ideal because they need a stronger bond to anchor themself in PR, that's what allows them to transform into a physical god metal (which exists in all 3 realms at the same time, creating a black hole of some sorts). Or it's the Surge of Transformation which is based on a natural phenomenon. I'm not arguing that these forces are unique to Roshar. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Perception... That's how healing in Cosmere works. Rysn views herself as crippled, Hoid doesn't. What I said is for now we don't know if the same rules of healing apply to Dawnshards or only to people that used to be Dawnshard. I believe it's the former. Both Hoid and Rysn don't need Stormlight to heal, we just hasn't have Rysn as an example yet. Healing isn't even the only thing Progression does, it makes things grow, Stormlight doesn't make people grow. Do you read what I write? Again, you don't know how Hoid can heal, it could be due to an unknown kind of magic he's collected, or his mysterious pact with the 16 Shards, or his Dawnshard. I was referring to Renarin with the lifelong neurological condition, but according to you he doesn't see himself as how he's always been. Progression doesn't grow people, just plants and carapace. Anyway, I'm trying to argue that Radiant healing is a specially designed feature, or at least a consciously developed one. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Cosmere spoilers: Spoiler You're assuming that about the Dor based on your assumptions, unless you can show me a quote or WOB that says so (and no, Raoden doesn't know how Elantris works so isn't counted as a reliable narrator of Investiture mechanics). We actually don't even know if Elatrians came first or not, but that's beside the point. As I've said before, Shardic intervention hardly counts, which includes Divine Breath. Biochromatic Breath on the other hand, doesn't heal. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: What? No! That's literally the explanation of Shardblade cutting. It's not Division. Is there a spiritual Division? Something like that was never mentioned. And by what surge is Nightblood cutting? Or Azure's blade? Both are Shardblades, they are cutting in all 3 realms as well, what Surge is that? None, that's just the mechanism of Shardblades, defined by natural laws of Cosmere. I know it's an explanation of the Blade cutting; it was needed because the width of the blade would have made cutting through stone (or cheese) impossible otherwise. Spiritual Division would be the breaking/downgrading of Connection. No it wasn't mentioned, that's why this is a theory. Some of the stuff you've said has never been mentioned. Again, I have told you I am talking about Rosharan Surge-based magic, stop straw-manning me. Nalthian Shardblades use a completely different magic system, but are based off the same or similar principles, you know, the ones you keep dragging up. Also, I wouldn't exactly say that Nightblood cuts. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: That's very relevant. That's how it works. Surgebinding is another manifestation of those laws of Cosmere, but not everything on Roshar is because of Surgebinding - Roshar existed BEFORE Surgebinding was created, before Surges even existed. The same goes with sprens. But those natural laws of Cosmere always existed, since creation, Roshar was created and its nature is defined by those natural laws of Cosmere. That's how Stormlight works, because Stormlight is defined by laws of Investiture, that's how spren works, because they're defined by laws about Splinters, that's how healing works, because it's defined by laws regarding healing. etc. That's where it came from, from the nature of Cosmere, not specifically from Surges. Yes, all those things are part of the same magic system (multiple magic systems at once exist on Roshar), but they all work by outside forces and rules, not because of Surges. Riiiight, and you know where the line is drawn, how? You seem to have decided to not entertain my idea based on an arbitrary determination about where the Surges no longer apply, which is bafflingly at the spren which grant them and the Investiture of the Shard which created them. So, I will just say what you don't want to: we don't know if I'm right, we don't know if you're right, and that's fine. I'm sorry if I'm being curt with you, but you seem to have a habit of tediously arguing digressive points. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 27, 2023 Report Share Posted May 27, 2023 16 minutes ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: Do you read what I write? Again, you don't know how Hoid can heal, it could be due to an unknown kind of magic he's collected, or his mysterious pact with the 16 Shards, or his Dawnshard. I was referring to Renarin with the lifelong neurological condition, but according to you he doesn't see himself as how he's always been. Oh, I misinterpret it as self-healing. Hoid is healing because he used to have Dawnshards, and that's his source of healing. To Renarin - yes, that's right, that's not according to me, that's according to the rules of healing - if he was perceiving himself as needing glasses and suffering from a neurological condition, then he would never be able to heal without changing that view. That's how healing in Cosmere works. Progression included. Spoiler Questioner I notice that Stormlight seems to be a bit volatile in how well it heals or who it heals. Because it seems like Renarin's eyesight would have been a long term problem, kinda like Rysn's legs maybe and Lopen's arm. But Lopen's arm got healed, Rysn's legs didn't and Kaladin's scars didn't. So I didn't know if there was a reason for those things. Brandon Sanderson So Stormlight healing, there's a couple things that have to be considered. But in reference to what you're saying, the person's perception of themselves is a huge part of it. The way healing works in the cosmere is, you've got the three versions of yourself. You've got your Physical version, your Cognitive version, and your Spiritual version, And a lot of Stormlight is taking your Physical version and matching it to the Spiritual version which is your ideal self. But it has to be filtered through the lens of your mind, and things like this. I almost always--probably should say always--am using it to reinforce some sort of character attribute. The fact that Lopen never saw himself, even though he only had one arm, as being disabled, as a big influence, versus whether Kaladin feels deserves his brands or not. Does that makes sense? And those are two very different things that influence how the healing works. And you will see that as a metaphor and theme, if you watch what heals and what doesn't. Orem signing (March 10, 2018) 28 minutes ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: Hide contents You're assuming that about the Dor based on your assumptions, unless you can show me a quote or WOB that says so (and no, Raoden doesn't know how Elantris works so isn't counted as a reliable narrator of Investiture mechanics). We actually don't even know if Elatrians came first or not, but that's beside the point. As I've said before, Shardic intervention hardly counts, which includes Divine Breath. Biochromatic Breath on the other hand, doesn't heal. Cosmere Spoilers: Spoiler Your words about "healing aons written on the city's wall" is pure speculation, unsupported by anything. We know Elantrians were before the city was made, and that those people built Elantris: Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Weak Aons Elantris is like a massive power conduit. It focuses the Dor, strengthening its power (or, rather, the power of the Aons to release it) in Arelon. This far away from Elantris, however, the Aons are about as powerful as they were before Raoden fixed Elantris. If you consider it, it makes logical sense that the Aons would be tied to Elantris and Arelon, yet would work without them. The Aons had to exist before Elantris–otherwise, the original Elantrians wouldn't have known the shape to make the city. Their study of AonDor taught them a method for amplifying Aon power. Elantris Annotations (May 12, 2006) Every single Breath is a Splinter of Endowment. By your logic Stormlight or Voidlight is a Shardic Intervention as those came from Honor and Odium. Return doesn't have to give up his life when his reason for return is revealed to him, he can decide when to do it. Breaths don't have this ability, for unknown reasons, or maybe it is not discovered yet. 34 minutes ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: I know it's an explanation of the Blade cutting; it was needed because the width of the blade would have made cutting through stone (or cheese) impossible otherwise. Spiritual Division would be the breaking/downgrading of Connection. No it wasn't mentioned, that's why this is a theory. Some of the stuff you've said has never been mentioned. That's why I am showing you that your theory explains stuff that is already explained. There is no need for a weird Division mechanic that was never shown on pages when the explanation is there. The blade changes matter into investiture - I see no Division here, more like Transformation (which doesn't change things into investiture). 41 minutes ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: Riiiight, and you know where the line is drawn, how? You seem to have decided to not entertain my idea based on an arbitrary determination about where the Surges no longer apply, which is bafflingly at the spren which grant them and the Investiture of the Shard which created them. So, I will just say what you don't want to: we don't know if I'm right, we don't know if you're right, and that's fine. I'm sorry if I'm being curt with you, but you seem to have a habit of tediously arguing digressive points. I think you are starting to make it too personal. I will just quote what I said earlier: On 25.05.2023 at 5:51 PM, alder24 said: I do understand it as you said it, I just think those things exist outside of Surges, that's because of the nature of Cosmere, not Surges. It's not because of Surgebinding, it's because of natural laws that exist outside of Surgebinding. Those might seem similar, and one can make a reasonable argument that Surges are the reason behind it, but Surges just work under the same natural laws as all those things that you mentioned, especially spren. That's why they work similar, that's why you can "classify" some effects under those Surges. You're taking a very Roshar-centric position and you are searching for patterns that focus on Surges as an explanation - that's ok. I have a different opinion which I've already explained quite extensively, with nothing more to add. And that's it from me on this matter. Spoiler Argent In the Syl interlude in Rhythm of War, she is speaking with Dalinar about his powers and the things those powers have done in the past. And what she says is "a Bondsmith bound other Surges". First of all, what other Surges? Brandon Sanderson One potential interpretation for you on this, remember they use Surge and spren sometimes interchangeably in-world. Just making you aware of that. Argent Yeah I'm aware of that. Bound other Surges.... Argent Then the term Bondsmith. To me it seems like she's talking about Ishar and the Ashyn stuff. So would they use Bondsmith to describe him in that place? Brandon Sanderson That might be what she's talking about. I'm not guaranteeing it. Argent And that would be maybe the power of Connection, the way Lightweaving is the power of illusion? Brandon Sanderson So one other thing to keep aware of in the cosmere - for instance they call "Lightweaving" any illusion-based magic working on the same fundamentals. And so you could argue - and people will use it that way in-world - that Bondsmithing is both an order [of Knights Radiant] and a power that exists outside the order. Brandon Sanderson Yes. And for instance, there were not Elsecallers to get people between Ashyn and Roshar, but on Roshar they would explain what happened there as Elsecalling. Does that make sense? Argent I mean, as much as these things make sense, yes. JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021) Spoiler DracostarA When the Sleepless refer to 'Surgebinding' with the Dawnshards do they mean it specifically in the Rosharan sense, or just because that is the word Roshar has for magic. I.e. if this occurred on Scadrial would they still call it 'Surgebinding' or something else? Brandon Sanderson Surgebinding is kind of a catch-all for cosmere magic here, as you're assuming. Literally binding (using) surges (a word for what we would call types of magic.) FirebreatherRay So, Rosharans would look at an Allomancer or Feruchemist and say, "Yep, that there is a Surgebinder," correct? Brandon Sanderson Many Rosharans. Many would also just think of them as some kind of voidbringer or other mythological figure, from local lore. HORSEthe Wait, have mistborn been to roshar or am I reading this wrong? Brandon Sanderson What I mean is that someone like from, say, Bavland might have different stories they tell about creatures in the night than someone from Rira. So while they might call someone who uses strange abilities a surgebinder, they are probably more likely to talk about the local equivalent of something like a fae creature from local British lore. Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020) Spoiler Questioner It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere. Brandon Sanderson Depends on your definition of god. Questioner Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin Brandon Sanderson So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book. Questioner I was wondering how much- Brandon Sanderson But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place. Questioner The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard. Brandon Sanderson That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement. Questioner Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work? Brandon Sanderson Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not. Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argenti Posted May 27, 2023 Report Share Posted May 27, 2023 yall need to chill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
in Truth,watcher of tv Posted May 28, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2023 13 hours ago, alder24 said: You're taking a very Roshar-centric position and you are searching for patterns that focus on Surges as an explanation - that's ok. That's because I'm talking about a single magic system on Roshar. Stop trying to make this something it isn't. I've never, not once, tried to apply Surges to anything except the Knights Radiant and their spren. I acknowledged and agreed that the Surges are based on universal principles. You've repeatedly misrepresented what I've said, ignored key bits of my posts and occasionally been condescending, all of which has been upsetting. Again, I really am sorry for any rudeness. In the interest of completeness, I'll give a last response to the other points. 13 hours ago, alder24 said: Oh, I misinterpret it as self-healing. Hoid is healing because he used to have Dawnshards, and that's his source of healing. I don't know what you're saying about misinterpreting, but I'm unaware of anything that says Hoid heals because of the Dawnshard. I think both our points are moot on this because healing mechanics are quite nebulous and we don't have much insight into who can do what why. I also should have done a better job breaking up my different statements, I think I caused some confusion. 13 hours ago, alder24 said: Cosmere Spoilers: Spoiler Yes, the Aon Ien thing was speculation, and I properly framed it as such. Now I think a bit more about it, they would probably still would have been incomplete when Elantris was reactivated, but I think AonDor healing could potentially be explained by having fairly pure Devotion Intent. Anyway, best to wait for sequel books to delve into this stuff. Checking the coppermind, normal Breaths are not Splinters, simply Investiture. They don't heal, and by my logic that's because Investiture doesn't inherently heal. Divine Breath is a different thing, a result of direct action of Endowment, similar to Honourblades/Heralds and the Fused. 13 hours ago, alder24 said: That's why I am showing you that your theory explains stuff that is already explained. There is no need for a weird Division mechanic that was never shown on pages when the explanation is there. The blade changes matter into investiture - I see no Division here, more like Transformation (which doesn't change things into investiture). You haven't shown me anything I don't already know. In my theory, Spiritual Division explains why Shardblades (but not any spren in godmetal form) effortlessly separates matter; the matter vaporisation thing is how the Blades do this without having a width of absolute zero. It wouldn't be the first magic in the Cosmere to have additional minor effects to make it practical. Anyway, as a parting gift, here's a WOB about the Elantris weirdness that I've referred to previously: Spoiler Chris King Did seons exist when the Aonic peoples discovered Elantris? Brandon Sanderson When the Aonic peoples discovered Elantris, did seons exist-- Okay let me go back to my timeline... It kind of means you have to define what you mean by Aonic. The problem is if you dig back too far in history it's kind of like asking "What's a German?" You know what I mean? Chris King Because the Aons are based upon Elantris itself and so they don't become Aonic until they are writing the Aons. Brandon Sanderson And Aonic is also-- You are talking about the people and so it's like are the Normans Brits? Or are they Vikings? Or are they Frenchman? Chris King Why don't we phrase it as the people of Sel when they discovered Elantris. Brandon Sanderson No, no, that's getting, okay-- Let's go ahead and RAFO that one, just because the history of Elantris is very interesting to the cosmere. When people are starting to get an inkling of that. Chris King Odium was there once upon a time. Brandon Sanderson Yah... And the question of who built Elantris and how they built Elantris. What's going on with the Elantrians back then and things like this. So let's just RAFO that. 9 hours ago, Argenti said: yall need to chill Haha yeah, sorry, I got a bit grouchy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 28, 2023 Report Share Posted May 28, 2023 2 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: That's because I'm talking about a single magic system on Roshar. Stop trying to make this something it isn't. I've never, not once, tried to apply Surges to anything except the Knights Radiant and their spren. I acknowledged and agreed that the Surges are based on universal principles. You've repeatedly misrepresented what I've said, ignored key bits of my posts and occasionally been condescending, all of which has been upsetting. I'm not misrepresenting it. I shouldn't have brought up examples from outside of Roshar, yes, but that was to show how Rosharan magic is similar to everything else in Cosmere. My point is that Radiant healing, squires and all other effects they have, plus nature of spren, Shardblades etc, aren't because of Surges, it's not Surges that makes them like that, but the nature and laws of Cosmere. That's just how things in Cosmere work. And because Rosharan Surgebinding IS allowing for manipulation of those natural laws of Cosmere, you have similarities like that, you CAN say that those Radiant effects are because of Surges. You can. But I'm arguing that's not the case, that those things are because of Cosmere. Roshar is a part of Cosmere, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. You can't ignore Cosmere and just say everything is because of Surges. Connections on Roshar aren't all formed because of Spiritual Adhesion, Connection and their formation exists outside of Adhesion, Connections are a huge part of Cosmere and there are natural laws and mechanics embedded in every part of the Cosmere, and on Roshar Connections works because those laws. Spiritual Adhesion is just another way of manipulating Connection, and is just a part of greater Cosmere. Don't get me wrong, that's my opinion. I can be wrong. But nothing that you have said didn't convince me that I'm wrong. 2 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: I'm unaware of anything that says Hoid heals because of the Dawnshard. Here you go: Spoiler /u/ph4mp573r [Hoid] was beheaded in Dragonsteel Prime and the Dawnshard is what regrew his head. He makes a crack about always thinking his head would have grown a new body, not vice versa, as he stares at his own severed head. /u/sambadaemon Slightly related: If the Dawnshard let Hoid regrow his entire head, will it eventually give Rysn back the use of her legs? Peter Ahlstrom The different dawnshards have different powers. Information subject to change when it appears in canon. General Reddit 2022 (Dec. 2, 2022) 2 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: I think both our points are moot on this because healing mechanics are quite nebulous and we don't have much insight into who can do what why. I disagree, from all things in Cosmere, healing is explained quite extensively. We know how it works in detail. 2 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said: Hide contents Yes, the Aon Ien thing was speculation, and I properly framed it as such. Now I think a bit more about it, they would probably still would have been incomplete when Elantris was reactivated, but I think AonDor healing could potentially be explained by having fairly pure Devotion Intent. Anyway, best to wait for sequel books to delve into this stuff. Checking the coppermind, normal Breaths are not Splinters, simply Investiture. They don't heal, and by my logic that's because Investiture doesn't inherently heal. Divine Breath is a different thing, a result of direct action of Endowment, similar to Honourblades/Heralds and the Fused. Cosmere: Spoiler For Breaths, I was quite sure there was a WoB where Brandon called every Breath a tiny splinter, but I can't find it. I must have been mistaken and only Divine Breaths are splinters. Breaths doesn't heal their owner because of the nature of Endowment, this investiture is keyed to Endowment and she is all about giving, not about self. This is also a nature of Cosmere - depending to whom investiture is keyed it has different limitations. On Roshar it's by nature more accessible and giving - that's partially because of Surgebinding, because Stormlight is the effect of interaction between Honor, Cultivation and the system of Roshar. But it's not like every effect of Stormlight and Radiants is because of Surges, they just manifest in a similar way. Spoiler vandar10 Could someone with enough Breaths use part of them to heal himself without the help of a Returned?? Could the God King have healed himself without Lightsong with enough knowledge? Brandon Sanderson The nature of the Warbreaker magic is tied to the shard of Endowment, which is about giving. There are, therefore, things you cannot do for yourself. RobotAztec For healing can Big Breaths heal only one person at a time or can you heal a bunch of people at once?(as long as they are not yourself)? Brandon Sanderson Legends say you can heal many. /r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted May 28, 2023 Report Share Posted May 28, 2023 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Spoiler For Breaths, I was quite sure there was a WoB where Brandon called every Breath a tiny splinter, but I can't find it. I must have been mistaken and only Divine Breaths are splinters. It's actually the opposite: Spoiler The WoB Says they are not splinters (there is a lower boundry to how small something can be considered a Splinter. Coppermind and WoBs: Quote For instance, a divine Breath is considered to be a Splinter,[21] but there is no indication that the lesser Breath possessed by normal people is considered to be one. In fact, the small amount of Investiture present in sapient beings, known as Innate Investiture, is also distinct from Splinters.[22] Quote Skyler If a Returned gives away his/her Breath they die right? So why doesn't Vasher die after he gives his to Denth? Brandon Sanderson They will die the moment they run out of Breath to harvest. Once a week their body needs a Breath in order to survive. Each Returned has one single superpowered Breath. Imagine it as one breath that propels them up through the Heightenings, but it is only a single Breath. It's what we speak of in Shard world terminology as a Splinter. Quote Chaos Is there a cosmere-specific term you use to describe, say, a Shard's power inside someone? For example, people on Scadrial had little bits of Preservation in them that made them sentient (and, with enough Preservation, Allomancy). This obviously doesn't make these people Slivers or Splinters, so I was just wondering if you had a word for it. Brandon Sanderson In my own terms, I refer to all of this as types of Investiture. The degree, and effects, can be very different--but those people are Invested. I term this innate Investiture, and it is similar to what happens with people on Nalthis. That is also innate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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