Harmonium/Trellium Bullets

[Trusk'our he/him]

I was on a thread recently that talked about making Scadrian styled weapons to combat Rosharan Surgebinders. I came up with the idea of making a Harmonium bullet when I got a way better (or at least a more catastrophic) idea.

You could create a small device inside a bullet to send an electric charge (briefly) some Harmonium and use Trellium to split it. Basically, you create a very powerful exploding bullet that could vaporize even the most Invested non-Shardic entities.

We know that Wax used about half a gram of Harmonium when he blew up his room, and even a .22 bullet has 32 grains of mass to it, which converts to 2.07356512 grams. Basically, you could fit enough Harmonium/Trellium into a handgun to easily blow up a room (assuming you could get the device that creates the electric current small enough), and a larger gun made specifically for killing Lord Ruler-level beings could hold a lot more.

What say you guys? Is it doable? Is it a potential way to counter/kill extremely powerful Invested beings?

[Frustration]

It wouldn't work, the electric currents needed are more powerful than what even industrial cables are capable of according to Wax, it's not feasable to make it into a bullet.

[alder24]

30 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

You could create a small device inside a bullet to send an electric charge (briefly) some Harmonium and use Trellium to split it. Basically, you create a very powerful exploding bullet that could vaporize even the most Invested non-Shardic entities.

You mean electric charge heating the metal up to 3000 degree Celsius INSIDE THE PISTOL BULLET? Do I need to say that I'm skeptical?  

You're basically creating an incandescent light bulb, where the filament can be heated up by even 3000 degree Celsius. Harmonium can act as filament, that's no problem. Creating a miniaturized mechanism to insert Trellium into Harmonium might be a problem. But the biggest problem is fitting the energy source INSIDE THE HANDGUN BULLET. And in Era 2 it's impossible. And a heat resistant shell.

But how will you time the mechanism of Trellium? You can't make it impact based, as it can explode in your barrel. Timer is complicated, as that's lots of mechanisms which can be damaged. Well, maybe it can be impact based, a Trellium pin at the top which is pushed by an impact. 

I think you went too small. But a granate would work. Just do a grenade launcher. With some modern batteries inside. But you would need like a 100 Watts or more (I'm not familiar that well with electricity, correct me if I'm wrong at any point). Google says that a 100W incandescent light bulb makes the filament reach ~2500 degree Celsius. But 100W is a big battery. It won't fit in a granate either. You would need like a artillery shell for that to work ("oh yes, good thing I've brought my 200mm handgun with me  ")

Spoiler

So no, you can't make a H-T bullet for you handgun.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

I'd say it's ossible if you cna get it there in some other way, say using cohesion or friction. Alternitevly, you could go the H-bomb route and have less impactful explosions heat the harmonium to the required temperature before the trellium impacts.

[Frustration]

29 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You would need like a artillery shell for that to work ("oh yes, good thing I've brought my 200mm handgun with me  ")

  Reveal hidden contents

So no, you can't make a H-T bullet for you handgun.

Wait, Walmart isn't stocking 223 mm rounds anymore?

blast, welp, guess I'll have to go somewhere else to get those.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

@Frustration @alder24 @Trusk'our

If the piece of harmonium used were also a primer cube charged with compounded brass?

It would take a couple metalborn to create each round... ridiculously expensive rounds as well.  

I do think that could provide the heat you need to start the reaction.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

@Frustration @alder24 @Trusk'our

If the piece of harmonium used were also a primer cube charged with compounded brass?

It would take a couple metalborn to create each round... ridiculously expensive rounds as well.  

I do think that could provide the heat you need to start the reaction.  

Hmmmm, perhaps. I definitely think it would be worth a try, particularly since the bullets are meant for the super heavy-weights of Investiture users.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, this would take a lot to get the reaction started.

And if it could be done, it'd be a really bad idea. Sazed calls it a matter-energy conversion. That would make it more powerful than nuclear; it's more like antimatter.

Now, its not necessarily efficient on a small scale - surely Wax's half a gram wasn't anything like totally converted, or the destruction would have been pretty total (half a gram of matter into energy is 5 × 10^-4 kg * 9 x 10^16 J/kg = 4.5 x 10^13 J, or roughly 10 kilotons of TNT equivalent, comparable to the Hiroshima bomb.)

But still... this is the kind of weapon that would be practically as dangerous to the user as the target. You wouldn't want to shoot matter-conversion bullets at anything close enough to see.

[therunner he/him]

11 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

@Frustration @alder24 @Trusk'our

If the piece of harmonium used were also a primer cube charged with compounded brass?

I do think that could provide the heat you need to start the reaction. 

That would not work (I think) for two reasons

1. Heat alone is not enough (Wax in TLM notes that heating methods failed to separate Harmonium), it is heating while running running an electric current through it that achieves partial separation.
2. Primer cubes don't seem to affect themselves, only their surrounding (and whether is set to be affected via fabrial construction).
    

10 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

And if it could be done, it'd be a really bad idea. Sazed calls it a matter-energy conversion. That would make it more powerful than nuclear; it's more like antimatter.

Nah, its a 'regular' (for given meaning here ) nuclear reaction, not antimatter-matter reaction, those happen on Roshar only at the moment. Even in nuclear weapons the energy comes from matter-energy conversion, since the difference in mass defects is converted to energy (mass defect is difference in mass between elementary particles and whole atom, and different atoms have different mass defects).

In this case, the mass defect (or something like it) comes from fission of harmonium into atium and lerasium (where some lerasium and atium combine back into harmonium most likely, and only trace amounts of atium are left as a result of Ruin being a bit stronger than Preservation).

[cometaryorbit]

I don't think it's simple fission of harmonium. Sazed says "This is a new kind of explosive—the direct transformation of matter into energy." Yes, you lose some mass in fission reactions, but I think Sazed is describing direct conversion.

 Sazed also makes it sound like if those three barrels had gone off "properly" rather than the water explosion that Wayne set off, the explosion would have been much more energetic/destructive than a fission bomb the size of those barrels. An explosion large enough to destroy Elendel, Bilming, and "many other cities" would be ridiculously huge - much larger than the largest nuclear weapon ever tested in RL, and orders of magnitude beyond any purely fission weapon. (The scale on the map in AoL suggests that Elendel and Bilming are a bit under 100 miles apart... maybe 80 to 90 miles?)

Of course, he also says he doesn't know, so...

[therunner he/him]

6 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think it's simple fission of harmonium. Sazed says "This is a new kind of explosive—the direct transformation of matter into energy." Yes, you lose some mass in fission reactions, but I think Sazed is describing direct conversion.

It is direct conversion in atomic bombs. What Sazed describes is exactly what happen in normal nuclear bombs, no anti-matter reaction needed.
Anti-matter bombs are only more efficient then nuclear bombs, that is all.

Scadrial has 'easy' access to technology for Investiture powered nuclear bombs, Roshar has ability to create anti-Investiture (and notably is the first to actually do so since Shattering, per Ars Arcanum). Nothing in TLM suggests that Scadrial has recreated anti-Investiture, since that would be quite notable achievement.

6 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Sazed also makes it sound like if those three barrels had gone off "properly" rather than the water explosion that Wayne set off, the explosion would have been much more energetic/destructive than a fission bomb the size of those barrels. An explosion large enough to destroy Elendel, Bilming, and "many other cities" would be ridiculously huge - much larger than the largest nuclear weapon ever tested in RL, and orders of magnitude beyond any purely fission weapon. (The scale on the map in AoL suggests that Elendel and Bilming are a bit under 100 miles apart... maybe 80 to 90 miles?)

Sazed also literally says he has no idea what he is talking about to be fair, which you also note.

And compared to IRL bombs, there is also Investiture component to consider, and these are God metals.
Also, he never says the bomb would destroy Elendel and Bilming at the same time, if I recall right.

Edited May 18, 2023 by therunner

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Also, he never says the bomb would destroy Elendel and Bilming at the same time, if I recall right.

Telsin worried it might, but Harmony also said that she had no idea how powerful it really was.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, therunner said:

Also, he never says the bomb would destroy Elendel and Bilming at the same time, if I recall right.

He did say that's a possibility, TLM ch 69:

Quote

Waxillium, Wayne ... Harmony said, and Wayne perked up, apparently hearing the conversation too. This is a new kind of explosive—the direct transformation of matter into energy. I don’t think Autonomy or her agents understand how destructive this is. Looking at this, and how much metal they’ve used, I suspect they severely underestimated this bomb’s power.
If we were simply talking about harmonium blowing up when combined with water, then yes: you could detonate it safely out here in the ocean. But a blast caused by splitting harmonium with trellium ... My friends, I have no idea how much power that would release. I can’t exactly be sure what will happen if something this powerful is ignited. It could set the very atmosphere ablaze.
If not, it would potentially vaporize not just Elendel and Bilming, but many cities nearby as well. Your sister is desperate, and Autonomy is callous. I doubt they tested anything on this size or scale in those caverns. We can’t let this explode. But ... I also can’t see a way to disarm it.

And both Telsin and the Set were worried that this bomb can destroy both Elendel and Bilming, TLM ch 69:

Quote

No! she thought. No! The bomb cannot be stopped. If they interfere, they will destroy themselves and the city. Potentially both cities. Rusts.

TLM ch 58:

Quote

And here, a design for a much larger rocket. Maybe a last chance at making this work, but they’re worried it won’t fly far enough ... and might catch Bilming or other towns and not just Elendel.

 

If the bomb was really able to destroy both Elendel and Bilming when detonated in between them, that's like 80 km radius of destruction, a very, very big bomb - for comparison from https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/, Tsar bomba 50 MT detonated airborne had 60 km thermal radius, 54 km of light blast damage radius and 21 km of moderate blast damage radius (capable of destroying most buildings). A 100 MT airborne bomb would have 73 km, 92 km and 33 km respectively. For the Set bomb to destroy both Elendel and Bilming it would have to be of much greater power than 100 MT. 

Using this calculator: https://nuclearweaponsedproj.mit.edu/nuclear-weapon-effects-simulations-and-models/nuclear-weapons-blast-effects-calculator the bomb would have to be at least 1 GT in power for an airburst to destroy both Elendel and Bilming almost completely. That's a lot of power. 

And because Set was worried that with a rocket delivery it might also happen, damage done to Elendel and Bilming can't be because of the Tsunami, as in the case of a rocket that would be an airburst.

Buuuut if the bomb would be able to literally vaporize both Bilming and Elendel, as Sazed suggested, wouldn't that mean that the fireball itself is 80 km in radius? Yes, he has no idea how powerful that bomb can be, but if he was right and both cities would be vaporized, then this has to be done by the fireball itself? Am I right? Just to show how ridiculous this would be, Tsar bomba has a fireball 4.6 km in radius, 100 MT has 6 km in radius - both airborne detonations (surface would be around 30% bigger).

Of course all of this is coming from online calculators, take it with a grain of salt.

[therunner he/him]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

He did say that's a possibility, TLM ch 69:

 

He also suggested the bomb setting atmosphere ablaze, and that is obviously impossible.

None of the people in TLM (and Shard apparently) have any idea of what they are talking about with any certainty, and their worries echo IRL worries prior to first atomic bomb tests.

I really don't see any reason to think any anti-matter reaction are happening, when all the machanism etc. are clearly meant to parallel atomic bombs.

Neither Set, nor Telsin have any idea of how the bomb works, except that it does. They don't have theory of relativity yet, nor any realmatic understanding of the mechanism beyond the explosion. They are just guessing.

Edited May 19, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

He also suggested the bomb setting atmosphere ablaze, and that is obviously impossible.

None of the people in TLM (and Shard apparently) have any idea of what they are talking about with any certainty, and their worries echo IRL worries prior to first atomic bomb tests.

Yes, that's why bolded Sazed "I don't know" part and provided Set members quotes, as they at least have done several tests before, done some calculations and estimations of how much power this bomb might have. There are at least some reasons to believe that their worries might be justified.

5 minutes ago, therunner said:

I really don't see any reason to think any anti-matter reaction are happening, when all the machanism etc. are clearly meant to parallel atomic bombs.

With this I agree. It's Cosmere fission/fusion reaction. I think that was made pretty clear in the book.

[therunner he/him]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, that's why bolded Sazed "I don't know" part and provided Set members quotes, as they at least have done several tests before, done some calculations and estimations of how much power this bomb might have. There are at least some reasons to believe that their worries might be justified.

Problem is that their previous test were on completely different scale. They were doing underground testing basically right under a city, the bombs they tested would have been barely a kiloton in range, if that even.
To try and extend those results into something that would have been tens of megatons is frankly laughable. The dynamics will be very different there.

And Set scientist cannot even figure out a rocket, I doubt they can do any estimates of scaling of nuclear explosions, especially since they have no clue about underlying dynamics.

Edited May 19, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, therunner said:

Problem is that their previous test were on completely different scale. They were doing underground testing basically right under a city, the bombs they tested would have been barely a kiloton in range, if that even.
To try and extend those results into something that would have been tens of megatons is frankly laughable. The dynamics will be very different there.

I agree. It's not perfect, however mechanics of this bomb will still be the same, no matter scale (unlike fission/fusion bombs). That's why I said there are some reasons to believe that Bilming might be in danger if the bomb went off in between Bilming and Elendel. And for now we have no other sources of information other than Sazed and the Set (who was helped by Autonomy).

9 minutes ago, therunner said:

And Set scientist cannot even figure out a rocket, I doubt they can do any estimates of scaling of nuclear explosions, especially since they have no clue about underlying dynamics.

They did figure out rockets. They made them, tested them at sea, just not at the scale they needed. And as far as I know, Americans developed rockets after nukes were already tested. Those are two different fields of physics.

[cometaryorbit]

26 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And as far as I know, Americans developed rockets after nukes were already tested. Those are two different fields of physics.

Orbital rockets are after nukes, but liquid fuel rockets were being developed first - by the early 20s.

What we see in TLM seems like early 30s level to me - quite aware that long range rockets, even space ones, are possible but not able to make them work.

But the RL history of rockets around that time was kind of starved by limited funding.

Simple solid fuel rockets (gunpowder-based) had been known for ages, as long as guns, maybe even somewhat longer. They were used against the US in the war of 1812 (the "rockets' red glare").

But real improvement of rockets is basically a 20th century thing, and liquid fueled rockets were invented in the early 20s by Goddard in the US; there were a bunch of private groups working on them in the 20s and early 30s in the US and Europe. Rocket cars and stuff were built. But these were largely really poorly funded - Goddard was kind of considered a maverick, the group that became JPL was originally essentially an university club, the German VfR was an amateur club, etc. The British Interplanetary Society was founded then too.

This all got militarized in the run-up to / beginning of WWII, and that's where JATO units and the V2 rocket came from. (The American space program had a lot of V2 heritage, through Operation Paperclip - captured/surrendered German scientists taken to the US).

[therunner he/him]

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I agree. It's not perfect, however mechanics of this bomb will still be the same, no matter scale (unlike fission/fusion bombs). That's why I said there are some reasons to believe that Bilming might be in danger if the bomb went off in between Bilming and Elendel.

No, the mechanism will be more complicated at scale (or should be)
If you just naively scale it up, then vast majority of both trellium and harmonium won't react with each other, so it will go to waste. Blown away from the reaction site by the nascent explosion.

Quote

And for now we have no other sources of information other than Sazed and the Set (who was helped by Autonomy).

And Sazed literally says he has not idea what can or cannot happen, so his word is meanginless.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

They did figure out rockets. They made them, tested them at sea, just not at the scale they needed. And as far as I know, Americans developed rockets after nukes were already tested. Those are two different fields of physics.

They were granted a lot of knowledge by Autonomy, and they could not scale them up (which was something they explicilty had to figure out on their own).

And as @cometaryorbit pointed out, rockets pre-date nuclear weapons by a decade or so. Germany had rockets with ~320 km of range by 1944, Set cannot even create ones with more than 30 km or so?

If Set cannot really properly utilize rocket engineering, they are hopelessly out of their depths when it comes to engineering properly functioning nuclear weapons, they are order of magnitude more complex.

[The Stick]

One way to fulfill the original issue is to merely turn it into a harmonium-water bullet. The explosion would not be so big as to endanger the user and it would fit inside the shell. An impact based bullet would be best; the only issue is the firing mechanism setting off the shell.

[Walter The Moral]

 

On 5/22/2023 at 9:31 PM, The Stick said:

One way to fulfill the original issue is to merely turn it into a harmonium-water bullet. The explosion would not be so big as to endanger the user and it would fit inside the shell. An impact based bullet would be best; the only issue is the firing mechanism setting off the shell

TOTES spoilers:

Spoiler

A lot like the verdant and zephyr spore cannonballs

 

[cometaryorbit]

On 5/22/2023 at 1:31 PM, The Stick said:

One way to fulfill the original issue is to merely turn it into a harmonium-water bullet. The explosion would not be so big as to endanger the user and it would fit inside the shell. An impact based bullet would be best; the only issue is the firing mechanism setting off the shell.

Yeah, harmonium/water is more like an ultra powerful chemical explosion, so would be much less crazy. It'd still be very dangerous to use though, for the reason you say: it might need something more like a timed mechanism.