Dalinar and Lirin

[Aleksiel]

Did Kal know? I remember Amaram called Roshone "cousin" in Heartstone, but did Kal registered this information back then? Did he remembered? Did he even hear Amaram say it? Dalinar did not mentioned how the "powerful lighteyed" was when he talked to Kal so....

 

Think of what would happen when Kal realized this? Would this be enough to make him loose it? Is there any way his oaths would let him murdered Amaram?

 

I think Lirin also mentioned Amaram was Roshone's cousin. At any rate, the only reason I know are cousins is because it was in Kal's PoV, why wouldn't Kal remember it? He served Amaram for years. Kal likely would have go Szeth style on Amaram's chull, thus killing Syl. However, the climax and third Oath wouldn't have fit in this scenario.

 

I think Brandon conveniently made Kal forget it/not make the connection for meta text reasons, no in-world reasons come to my mind.

[maxal]

I think Lirin also mentioned Amaram was Roshone's cousin. At any rate, the only reason I know are cousins is because it was in Kal's PoV, why wouldn't Kal remember it? He served Amaram for years. Kal likely would have go Szeth style on Amaram's chull, thus killing Syl. However, the climax and third Oath wouldn't have fit in this scenario.

 

I think Brandon conveniently made Kal forget it/not make the connection for meta text reasons, no in-world reasons come to my mind.

 

Well maybe he wasn't listening when Amaram said it.... or maybe he was so overwhelmed over the prospect of Tien going to war he sort off forget?

 

However, I do hope we are going to see Kal struggle some more with Amaram. The resolution of that conflict felt weak and it seemed its entire purpose was to oppose the Adolin/Sadeas conflict. We need something more satisfying here.

[Aleksiel]

Well maybe he wasn't listening when Amaram said it.... or maybe he was so overwhelmed over the prospect of Tien going to war he sort off forget?

 

He served in Amaram's camp for years, surely the topic has come again even if Amaram never mentioned it again, others knew too.

 

'Hey, kaladin, where are you from?'

'Hearthstone'

'Oh, the town Brightlord Amaram's cousin Roshone rules? Cool.'

 

edit:

scenerio 2:

'So, Kal, why did you enlist in the army?'

'To protect my little brother Tien. My scumbag citylord Roshone send him here.'

'Brightlord Amaram's cousin? Man, that sucks.'

 

I simply can't imagine that the subject never came up for four years. It's not like Amaram was hiding Roshone was his cousin. It's ridiculous Kal didn't make the connection, no in-world reason to miss it. At least that's what I think.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Aleksiel

[maxal]

He served in Amaram's camp for years, surely the topic has come again even if Amaram never mentioned it again, others knew too.

 

'Hey, kaladin, where are you from?'

'Hearthstone'

'Oh, the town Brightlord Amaram's cousin Roshone rules? Cool.'

 

edit:

scenerio 2:

'So, Kal, why did you enlist in the army?'

'To protect my little brother Tien. My scumbag citylord Roshone send him here.'

'Brightlord Amaram's cousin? Man, that sucks.'

 

I simply can't imagine that the subject never came up for four years. It's not like Amaram was hiding Roshone was his cousin. It's ridiculous Kal didn't make the connection, no in-world reason to miss it. At least that's what I think.

 

He served in Amaram's camp for years, surely the topic has come again even if Amaram never mentioned it again, others knew too.

 

'Hey, kaladin, where are you from?'

'Hearthstone'

'Oh, the town Brightlord Amaram's cousin Roshone rules? Cool.'

 

edit:

scenerio 2:

'So, Kal, why did you enlist in the army?'

'To protect my little brother Tien. My scumbag citylord Roshone send him here.'

'Brightlord Amaram's cousin? Man, that sucks.'

 

I simply can't imagine that the subject never came up for four years. It's not like Amaram was hiding Roshone was his cousin. It's ridiculous Kal didn't make the connection, no in-world reason to miss it. At least that's what I think.

 

You're probably right which is why the only explanation I have is that Kal forgot or didn't register the information. It could also be Amaram link to Roshone was not known in the army. Afterall, Heartstone was a small village, most soldiers would not know of it nor would they know about Roshone.

[Aleksiel]

You're probably right which is why the only explanation I have is that Kal forgot or didn't register the information. It could also be Amaram link to Roshone was not known in the army. Afterall, Heartstone was a small village, most soldiers would not know of it nor would they know about Roshone.

 

Not only Shallan denies stuff from her past, now Kal doesn't remember parts of his own flashbacks? It was too convenient. How Dalinar didn't mention whose cousin Roshone was, how Kal didn't ask and didn't make the connection... Too convenient. Only meta text reasons for that, no good ones in-world.

[Zea mays]

A person can have more than one cousin. I for one, am not so sure Dalinar was talking about Amaram when he obliquely mentioned Roshone's powerful connection. We will probably learn a lot more about all this when Kaladin heads to Kholinar (his next destination, after Hearthstone).

[Aleksiel]

A person can have more than one cousin. I for one, am not so sure Dalinar was talking about Amaram when he obliquely mentioned Roshone's powerful connection. We will probably learn a lot more about all this when Kaladin heads to Kholinar (his next destination, after Hearthstone).

 

Of course, some like Lopen have endless amount of cousins. However, this doesn't defeat the point - even if Amaram isn't the 'powerful lighteyed cousin, whose alliance the Kholins needed', he is still Roshone's cousin as Kaladin very well know. He could have at least asked instead of conveniently forget for the sake of Elhokar's assassination plot.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Not only Shallan denies stuff from her past, now Kal doesn't remember parts of his own flashbacks? It was too convenient. How Dalinar didn't mention whose cousin Roshone was, how Kal didn't ask and didn't make the connection... Too convenient. Only meta text reasons for that, no good ones in-world.

 

Other than Kaladin was in jail and Elhokar wanted to have him executed, and he had just learned that Dalinar was linked to Roshone. That seems like a lot of good in world reasons to miss a small part of a conversation you're involved in.

 

 

Falsifying documents count as thievery, it is just a more subtle kin d of thievery. Lirin justifies his actions by claiming Wistiow would have given him the spheres, but we do not know that. Lirin assumed he would, but Wistiow made no promises that I remember. Laral was not engaged to Kaladin: Lirin hoped Wistiow would agree to marry his daughter to his son. There were talks, but nothing formal. Wistiow was incapacitated when he signed the document: they are not valid, but Roshone cannot prove it.

 

 

We don't know he actually falsified them, Wisitow most likely actually stamped them, and in that way they aren't falsified. Not thievery there. Also, we see this from Kaladin's perspective. Just as we know that Wisitow said that, we don't know that he didn't. I'm willing to take Lirin's word at face value on this. He has no reason to lie to Kaladin. In fact, Lirin says that on the day Wistiow died.

 

 

"He left these to us," Kal's father said. 

Kal started. "What?"

"You're to be sent to Kharbranth when you turn sixteen. These spheres will pay your way-Brightlord Wistiow requested it be done, a last act to care for his people. You will go and become a true master surgeon, then return to Hearthstone."

WoK 16 Cocoons.

 

Considering Laral's attitudes toward Kaladin, I'd say she was pretty keen on getting married too.  We also don't know if there are any laws about someone being in a sound state of mind in Alethkar. Considering their brutal laws already, I very much doubt they had the foresight for this. All it would take to prove he wasn't in sound mind would be to ask his servants and scribes, who were present. If that were an issue, than Roshone would have had ample proof. This leads me to believe that there are no laws decrying this, and that Lirin then broke no laws. He was underhanded, and was slightly unethical, but nothing illegal, which is the same reasoning being used to defend Roshone.

 

 

 

 

Besides, Lirin did not steal the spheres to secure his family income nor to provide for Roshone selfishness: he stole them to send Kal study in Karbranth. I agree Lirin is quite a selfless and dedicated person on an every day life basis, but when it comes to Kaladin, he becomes another man.

 

Kaladin does NOT have to go Karbranth to become a surgeon. This is Lirin's dream he is trying to live through his son. Kaladin does NOT need to marry a lighteye. He could marry any darkeye from the 1st or the 2nd or even the 3rd nahn and live a very happy comfortable life, but no Lirin is obsessed with gaining status. That is his weakness.

 

 

I think you're interpreting this wrong. Lirin is not stealing the spheres to secure status for himself, or even for his son. Sure he wants him to become a surgeon, but by no means is Kaladin being forced to:

 

 

"You wouldn't have to become a surgeon. Your life is your own, son. If you take the path of the surgeon, we will be proud. But don't feel that you need to live your father's life for him."

. . .

Hesina smiled. "If tha's what you choose, then-as I said-we will be proud of you. But father and I just want you to know that you can choose."

WoK 44 The Weeping

 

Sure, he wants Kaladin to become a surgeon. Sure he wanted him to marry Laral. A parent always wants what's best for their children. But Kaladin seemed happy with Laral. Why is it so wrong to want better things for your children? If I understand the social ranking correctly, Lirin wouldn't have gained any status anyways, just Kaladin. 

 

 

 

Lirin wants these things, not Kaladin. Lirin does not have the money to send Kaladin to Karbranth, worst, on his own, Kaladin does not have sufficient status to marry Laral. Therefore, Lirin assumed Wistiow would pay for Kal's instruction so he could marry Laral.......

 

This all very twisted, but despite his life dedication to his town's people, which is quite admirable in itself, Lirin do have weaknesses. He wants to gain prestige, he was obviously scorned at some point in his life and he is trying to re-live it through his son.

 

 

 

Again, you're assuming things about Lirin that I, and what we're given in the text, disagree with. Wistiow seemed to be a good man. He gave the huge amount of spheres to be used indefinitely in surgery. Why do we have any reason to doubt that Wistiow did not want to have Kaladin in Hearthstone. Wistiow was ancient, so he probably knew Lirin since he was a boy. Lirin cared for the people of his town, and Lirin's son was quite close to his daughter.  Lirin loves his town, and he loves his family, and I see everything that he has been doing as an attempt to help both of them.  

 

He isn't sending Kal to be a surgeon because of Laral either, otherwise he wouldn't still plan on sending them after Wistiow's death. He knew Laral would be engaged to Rillar, and then Roshone after Rillar's death. If it was about status and marrying a lighteyes, that's the end of the line right there. But that's not the reason why. The reason is a noble one, here it is right from Lirin's mouth:

 

 

"I want you to learn so you can help people son. Not so you can get back at the lighteyes."

WoK 38

 

Why would Lirin return to Hearthstone if he was obsessed with prestige? It's hard to gain status in a tiny town, very hard indeed. Why wouldn't he stay in Kharbranth? Why wouldn't he move somewhere with more Lighteyes? Lirin isn't obessed with prestige, he's obsessed with Hearthstone. 

 

 

   I do not agree with all you philosophies...

 

Philosophy of Purpose-Actions: It is true Lirin did not try to perpetuate evil as opposed to Roshone, but he was not acting in a way to secure his family's future. If he were, then the family would have left Heartstone. He stole so he could send his son to Karbranth. He stole for a dream he failed to live as a boy. There is selfishness in this.

 

Why would he leave Hearthstone when Wistiow died?  This is his hometown, he's lived there basically his whole life. He acquired those spheres to send his son to learn, because his son had potential. More potential than Lirin had, and he didn't want that wasted. He also wanted someone to carry on his tradition of caring for his town. Lirin is a successful surgeon. He chose to come back to Hearthstone. I don't see any evidence of childhood regrets. Until Roshone showed up, his life was practically perfect. He also is not forcing Kaladin to become a surgeon, as the quote earlier shows. 

 

 

Philosphy of Ideals: Kal does not need to go to Karbranth to become a surgeon and this save lifes. Kal needs to go to Karbranth to become a surgeon of enough renowned to marry into a lighteyed family and thus gain status. There is a big difference here. Whereas I would not call Lirin evil, his motives were not entirely pure. Roshone however  is plain evil, no question asked.

 

 

The option to marry Laral disappeared before Kal could be sent to Kharbranth, but Lirin still wants to send him, and still wants him to come back to Hearthstone (unless he's heavily drinking.) Once again, I think you're misrepresenting his intentions. What you're suggesting strongly contradicts with the character development we've seen for Lirin:

 

 

Lirin had a distant look in his eyes. "Somebody has to start. Somebody has to step forward and do what is right, because it is right. If nobody starts, then others cannot follow."

WoK 41 Of Alds and Milp

 

 

 

 

The Philosophy of Aspiration-Objective: Again, Kal would have become a surgeon without the spheres. He would have saved lifes anyway. Lirin's action do not serve his family, they serve his dreams. If Lirin had really wanted to serve his family, they would have left town. They would have moved to a larger town where Tien's talent would have found a voice.

 

Kal's potential would be wasted without the spheres. I doubt there are many scholarships on Roshar, and without those spheres, Kaladin cannot become as great a surgeon as he obviously has the potential to be. If anything, that's Lirin's one regret, is that he couldn't be better than he is, good enough to help more people, as evidence in this quote:

 

 

"I did all I could," his father said, rising. "Perhaps a man with more training than I. . .Well, there is no use in regrets."

Wok 16 Cocoons.

 

As far as Tien's talent, well, there hadn't been enough time to manifest that before he was sent to war, and even then it didn't seem promising:

 

 

Kaladin's parents were worried; Ral the carpenter had taken Tien, though he didn't really need another apprentice, and was reportedly dissatisfied with the boy's work. Tien got distracted easily, Ral complained. 

WoK Chapter 44 The Weeping.

 

That's the first we hear of Tien working as a carpenter, and it's later in that chapter that Tien gets sent to war. There was no way for them to forsee either Tien being sent to war, or his talent in carpentry before the effect. Besides, TIen didn't want to move either:

 

 

"And leave the town?" Tien said, as if he never considered the possibility. "But I like it here."

The Weeping.

 

How would leaving the town had served them? Lirin would have to find a town in need of a surgeon, and then whose to say that the townsfolk would take care of them like Hearthstone had before Roshone had he continued to give his services for free? I don't see it as him serving his dreams. He's trying to help Hearthstone, and he's trying to help Kaladin. By taking those sphere's and using them for Kaladin's education, it prevents the spheres from becoming Roshone's, and he certainly wouldn't spend it on the town. Even if Roshone did spend those speheres on Hearthstone, what could he possibly do with them that would produce more good than a master surgeon that doesn't charge for his services?  Lirin's objective was to have a master surgeon trained to take his place, to continue to serve the people of the town he loved. What goal could be worthier than that?

 

I don't see Lirin's actions as immoral, and if they were illegal, he'd be tried, hands down. But there's no law preventing what he did in Alethkar. It's illegal by today's standards, but not by theirs, and even so, from the information we're given, there's no reason to doubt that Wistiow wouldn't have given those spheres.

[Aleksiel]

Other than Kaladin was in jail and Elhokar wanted to have him executed, and he had just learned that Dalinar was linked to Roshone. That seems like a lot of good in world reasons to miss a small part of a conversation you're involved in.

 

I disagree. Roshone's relative was the main reason he wasn't punished accordingly. Kaladin did comment bitterly on that fact, so it wasn't a small fact to him:

 

Though it seems that such mercy often ends up serving the cousins of powerful lighteyes, and rarely someone lowly.

 

Another proof of how lighteyes are treated better than darkeyes, Kaladin tends to note such things and comment on them. Kaladin thinks often about Amaram and Roshone, he should have made the connection easily.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Amaram does say cousin more than once in the flashback. That's odd Kaladin didn't comment on that, but then again, he kept his involvement with Roshone quiet as well. Kaladin would have needed to explain the whole situation in Hearthstone to bring it into the scene, and Dalinar was already quite fed up with Kaladin. Kaladin had already been quite insubordinate, and further bringing up Roshone couldn't help the situation.

[Aleksiel]

That's a reason to not mention it infront of Dalinar, but doesn't explain why Kaladin ignored it in his inner dialogue. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

It's still not impossible for him to miss it. I've been through both books multiple times and never made that connection until you pointed it out. But I agree, very odd. But I thought the Amaram arc was incredibly disappointing throughout the whole book. In my opinion, it's the one flaw in WoR.

[Aleksiel]

I had forgotten that Roshone and Amaram were cousins all together, but Kaladin knows it:

 

“Your name is Kaladin, is it?”

“Yes, Brightlord. From Hearthstone? Remember?”

Amaram frowned, looking confused.

“Your cousin, Roshone, is citylord there. He sent my brother into the army when you came recruiting. I…I joined with my brother.

 

 

It's indeed odd and suspiciously convenient that Kal didn't make the connection then. I can't explain it in-world.

[happyman]

But I thought the Amaram arc was incredibly disappointing throughout the whole book. In my opinion, it's the one flaw in WoR.

 

I don't think it's a flaw; I think it's a plot arc that hasn't ended yet.

[maxal]

We don't know he actually falsified them, Wisitow most likely actually stamped them, and in that way they aren't falsified. Not thievery there. Also, we see this from Kaladin's perspective. Just as we know that Wisitow said that, we don't know that he didn't. I'm willing to take Lirin's word at face value on this. He has no reason to lie to Kaladin. In fact, Lirin says that on the day Wistiow died.

 

He made the documents and he had Wistiow sampled them as he was dying... A strong case could be made there. Also, Lirin did soundre guilty and he did try to justify himself which leads me to believe he was entirely fine with what he did.

 

 

Considering Laral's attitudes toward Kaladin, I'd say she was pretty keen on getting married too.  We also don't know if there are any laws about someone being in a sound state of mind in Alethkar. Considering their brutal laws already, I very much doubt they had the foresight for this. All it would take to prove he wasn't in sound mind would be to ask his servants and scribes, who were present. If that were an issue, than Roshone would have had ample proof. This leads me to believe that there are no laws decrying this, and that Lirin then broke no laws. He was underhanded, and was slightly unethical, but nothing illegal, which is the same reasoning being used to defend Roshone.

 

I am not sure about Laral. She seemed to like Kaladin just fine, but at the same time, she was urging him to become a soldier so he could get the chance to earn shards and thus become a lighteye... I have always had the feeling Laral would have loved Kal if Kal had been lighteyed. As if Kal, as he was, was not good enough for her.

 

Yes, we could argue Lirin did not really steal if it is quite possible current laws do not enclose his behavior rightly. However, Roshone does not feel the same and Lirin seem to think what he did was not entirely right. Wistiow had not made an official promise, they merely talked about it.

 

 

I think you're interpreting this wrong. Lirin is not stealing the spheres to secure status for himself, or even for his son. Sure he wants him to become a surgeon, but by no means is Kaladin being forced to:

 

 

Sure, he wants Kaladin to become a surgeon. Sure he wanted him to marry Laral. A parent always wants what's best for their children. But Kaladin seemed happy with Laral. Why is it so wrong to want better things for your children? If I understand the social ranking correctly, Lirin wouldn't have gained any status anyways, just Kaladin. 

 

Again, you're assuming things about Lirin that I, and what we're given in the text, disagree with. Wistiow seemed to be a good man. He gave the huge amount of spheres to be used indefinitely in surgery. Why do we have any reason to doubt that Wistiow did not want to have Kaladin in Hearthstone. Wistiow was ancient, so he probably knew Lirin since he was a boy. Lirin cared for the people of his town, and Lirin's son was quite close to his daughter.  Lirin loves his town, and he loves his family, and I see everything that he has been doing as an attempt to help both of them.  

 

He isn't sending Kal to be a surgeon because of Laral either, otherwise he wouldn't still plan on sending them after Wistiow's death. He knew Laral would be engaged to Rillar, and then Roshone after Rillar's death. If it was about status and marrying a lighteyes, that's the end of the line right there. But that's not the reason why. The reason is a noble one, here it is right from Lirin's mouth:

 

 

Why would Lirin return to Hearthstone if he was obsessed with prestige? It's hard to gain status in a tiny town, very hard indeed. Why wouldn't he stay in Kharbranth? Why wouldn't he move somewhere with more Lighteyes? Lirin isn't obessed with prestige, he's obsessed with Hearthstone. 

 

 

Why would he leave Hearthstone when Wistiow died?  This is his hometown, he's lived there basically his whole life. He acquired those spheres to send his son to learn, because his son had potential. More potential than Lirin had, and he didn't want that wasted. He also wanted someone to carry on his tradition of caring for his town. Lirin is a successful surgeon. He chose to come back to Hearthstone. I don't see any evidence of childhood regrets. Until Roshone showed up, his life was practically perfect. He also is not forcing Kaladin to become a surgeon, as the quote earlier shows.

 

He wants Kaladin to live out HIS dreams. He mentioned it from times to times. He wished HE could have studied in Karbranth. Of course Kal is not forced to, so to speak, but he is highly encouraged to do so. Lirin keeps on praising him for his skill and keeps on trying to ingrained his morality into Kal, pretty much like Dalinar does with Adolin in my initial parallel. Sure Kal does not have to listen to him, but it is hard to go against one's father.

 

Lirin does not want to gains status for himself, but it is obvious he wants Kaladin to gain status. He gave him a lighteyed name so he would fit into their society. He raised him as a lighteye and much of Kal's issues with authority can be directly linked to Lirin's teaching. So yes, Lirin wanted Kal to gain status. He mentioned at some point on how their ancestors worked hard to bring them to the 2nd nahn.

 

Lirin wants what he believes is the best for his son: to become a great surgeon formed in Karbranth, to marry into a lighteyed family. True, the option of marrying Laral disappeared when Wistiow, but he still wanted to play the Karbranth's option. And again, I'll mentioned Kaladin does not need to go to Karbranth to become a surgeon. Lirin didn't and he is a very good surgeon. This is not necessary, but Lirin wants it to happen. There is no denying that, despite Lirin obvious quality, he did have a weakness when it came to his elder son. He is guilty of trying to live out his dreams in him. It is not a crime in itself, but it did pushed him to perform the not so legal and not so ethical "stealing" of those spheres. What other reasons could he possibly have to take them? Secure his family's income? He would not spend them. He was saving them for Kal tutoring. Had Lirin no be so obsessed over Karbranth, he would have left the spheres alone and move on.

 

 

As far as Tien's talent, well, there hadn't been enough time to manifest that before he was sent to war, and even then it didn't seem promising:

 

 

That's the first we hear of Tien working as a carpenter, and it's later in that chapter that Tien gets sent to war. There was no way for them to forsee either Tien being sent to war, or his talent in carpentry before the effect. Besides, TIen didn't want to move either:

 

You are missing the part where Tien makes this amazing wooden horse and Kal comments on it. The reason the carpenter thinks Tien is useless is because Tien is bored making boring chairs and tables. His true talent lies within creating unique complicated pieces. However, these are quite useless in a small village which is why the carpenter comes down hard on Tien. He needs to be making useful objects, not wooden horses no matter how pretty.

 

Seeing his son's talent lay in artistry as opposed to carpentry, then yes Lirin could have decided to move to a larger town. In there, Tien's potential would have been better served. And of course Tien does not want to move... Do you know many 13 years old who wants to move? But I bet he would have loved his new rewarding life being tutored by a true artisan as opposed to a mere small village carpenter.

 

 

How would leaving the town had served them? Lirin would have to find a town in need of a surgeon, and then whose to say that the townsfolk would take care of them like Hearthstone had before Roshone had he continued to give his services for free? I don't see it as him serving his dreams. He's trying to help Hearthstone, and he's trying to help Kaladin. By taking those sphere's and using them for Kaladin's education, it prevents the spheres from becoming Roshone's, and he certainly wouldn't spend it on the town. Even if Roshone did spend those speheres on Hearthstone, what could he possibly do with them that would produce more good than a master surgeon that doesn't charge for his services?  Lirin's objective was to have a master surgeon trained to take his place, to continue to serve the people of the town he loved. What goal could be worthier than that?

 

I don't see Lirin's actions as immoral, and if they were illegal, he'd be tried, hands down. But there's no law preventing what he did in Alethkar. It's illegal by today's standards, but not by theirs, and even so, from the information we're given, there's no reason to doubt that Wistiow wouldn't have given those spheres.

 

It would have take them away from Roshone's grudge. In a larger town, they would not have been singled out as much. Lirin would have been able to secure a more steady income and may have been able to afford Kal's instruction on his own. As I mentioned above, Tien would have done better. In would have been a good move, but for some reasons yet unknown, Lirin wanted to stay in Heartstone.

 

Maybe it is not illegal according to Alethkar's laws, but it is still fishy. As for Wistiow, we have no proof he did intended to give out those spheres. Lirin assumed he would, but he had no firm evidence. Sad, but true.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Edit: have my computer, filling out the whole post, and rewriting the post I had. 

 

 

He made the documents and he had Wistiow sampled them as he was dying... A strong case could be made there. Also, Lirin did soundre guilty and he did try to justify himself which leads me to believe he was entirely fine with what he did.

 

 

If a strong case could be made, Roshone would make it, but he didn't, and he even says Lirin would win an inquest. This can only lead me to believe that what he did is not illegal. Unethical, but not illegal. As for Lirin sounding guilty, well yeah. Lirin is a good man, with one of the strongest moral compasses I've seen in a literary character, and he was being underhanded. Of course he is going to feel guilty about it. Heck, I feel guilty and justify myself for much simpler things that aren't illegal or underhanded. I'd be more inclined to denounce him if he didn't feel guilty.

 

 

 

 

I am not sure about Laral. She seemed to like Kaladin just fine, but at the same time, she was urging him to become a soldier so he could get the chance to earn shards and thus become a lighteye... I have always had the feeling Laral would have loved Kal if Kal had been lighteyed. As if Kal, as he was, was not good enough for her.

 

Yes, we could argue Lirin did not really steal if it is quite possible current laws do not enclose his behavior rightly. However, Roshone does not feel the same and Lirin seem to think what he did was not entirely right. Wistiow had not made an official promise, they merely talked about it.

 

 

Laral is a bit strange in that, but I think it's because Wistiow had told her about the possible match, and she thought it would only be ok if Kaladin was a light eyes. But I'm also not going to overly analyze the actions and thoughts of a teenage girl. Either way, they got along fine, and were close. Considering Shallan's father's reaction when he catches her drawing darkeyes, I'm inclined to say the two don't mix their youth very often. 

 

Roshone wants the spheres. He's broke from his political blundering, and he's trying to find easy money. Roshone doesn't care one bit about the law, and even if the situation wasn't as suspicious, and Wistiow had stamped the forms in front of his scribes, I bet you Roshone would still chase after him. Lirin is also being accused of being a thief by his own son at the time, and he did something that was slightly underhanded, so yes, Lirin doens't think what he did is ethical. But it was the right thing to do, and he knew that as well, which is why he did it. 

 

 

 

 

 

He wants Kaladin to live out HIS dreams. He mentioned it from times to times. He wished HE could have studied in Karbranth. Of course Kal is not forced to, so to speak, but he is highly encouraged to do so. Lirin keeps on praising him for his skill and keeps on trying to ingrained his morality into Kal, pretty much like Dalinar does with Adolin in my initial parallel. Sure Kal does not have to listen to him, but it is hard to go against one's father.

 

 

 

During my cursory rereads of the flashbacks today, I don't recall seeing as much evidence to show Lirin was trying to live his dreams through Kaladin as you claim is there. Can you find some quotes to support that? Also, from the description you write, it sounds like Lirin is trying to raise his son to be a moral person, what's so wrong about that?

 

 

 

 

Lirin does not want to gains status for himself, but it is obvious he wants Kaladin to gain status. He gave him a lighteyed name so he would fit into their society. He raised him as a lighteye and much of Kal's issues with authority can be directly linked to Lirin's teaching. So yes, Lirin wanted Kal to gain status. He mentioned at some point on how their ancestors worked hard to bring them to the 2nd nahn.

 

 

 

Kaladin is not going to gain any status by becoming a surgeon. He would've by marrying Wistiow, but that seems more a convenience factor than anything. Lirin didn't suddenly move to another town to chase down another Brightlord's daughter for his son to marry.

 Here's the quote you mention:

"You have a gift from the Heralds themselves," . . ."You could be ten times the Surgeon I am. Don't dream the small dreams of other men. Our grandfathers bought and worked us to the sceond nahn so that we could have full citizenship and the right of travel. Don't wast that on killing." 

 

10- Stories of Surgeons 

 

Yes, he starts off by saying he could be a better surgeon than he was, but look at how he finishes it. Don't waste that on killing. That's the main point to this conversation-don't become a soldier, you can't kill to protect. Not, "I could've been a better surgeon, so now you will become better than I could be." I see the encouragement less about Lirin's past failures (which I see very little evidence of) and more about Kaladin's absolutely incredible potential. They already are at the second nahn, so how much status could they gain anyways?  This is the wise father telling the headstrong youth that the glories of battle are overstated. It isn't the regretful failure hoping to give meaning to his life through that of his son. 

 

 

 

 

Lirin wants what he believes is the best for his son: to become a great surgeon formed in Karbranth, to marry into a lighteyed family. True, the option of marrying Laral disappeared when Wistiow, but he still wanted to play the Karbranth's option. And again, I'll mentioned Kaladin does not need to go to Karbranth to become a surgeon. Lirin didn't and he is a very good surgeon. This is not necessary, but Lirin wants it to happen. There is no denying that, despite Lirin obvious quality, he did have a weakness when it came to his elder son. He is guilty of trying to live out his dreams in him. It is not a crime in itself, but it did pushed him to perform the not so legal and not so ethical "stealing" of those spheres. What other reasons could he possibly have to take them? Secure his family's income? He would not spend them. He was saving them for Kal tutoring. Had Lirin no be so obsessed over Karbranth, he would have left the spheres alone and move on.

 

Again, what's wrong with wanting what's best for your children? Every parent is "guilty" of this. When Kal asks Hesina about them trying to marry him off to Laral, she just responds "it was a possibility." Not exactly forcing the prestige and lifestyle onto him. Lirin also didn't move to find another available lighteyed girl for Kaladin as soon as Laral became unavailable. 

 

No, Kaladin doesn't need to go to Kharbranth in the same way that a perfect student doesn't need to go to the best college. But if you have the potential, why would you waste it on sub par training? 

 

Again, I have read absolutely no evidence to show that Lirin is regretful of his past, and is trying to live vicariously through Kaladin. You'll have to find some evidence from the books for me, because the only time Lirin even mentions his training I saw is the quote I already provided which ends with him saying there's not use living with regret. The only line I could find linking Lirin to Kharbranth is not dialogue, but just background information about how Lirin didn't go to Kharbranth, but instead went there as a courier. Lirin is a surgeon. Lirin is a good surgeon. Lirin is living in place he wanted to live, he has a wonderful family. What could possibly cause him to have regrets?

 

What other reasons could he have for acquiring the spheres? Well, he's been living in this town under the same city lord for almost his whole life, and he doesn't charge for his medical services. Why would he risk that? Well, there's the donations from the townspeople that keep them fed, but there was also the agreement with Wistiow that would provide for his son when the time came. Unfortunately, Wistiow died before that happened. I don't understand why it is so hard to believe the maybe, just maybe, Lirin was telling the truth.  Also, it would be very difficult to move without any money whatsoever, so even if he did move, he would need to take the spheres with him because he spent his life dedicated to a town which did not take care of him back. 

 

 

You are missing the part where Tien makes this amazing wooden horse and Kal comments on it. The reason the carpenter thinks Tien is useless is because Tien is bored making boring chairs and tables. His true talent lies within creating unique complicated pieces. However, these are quite useless in a small village which is why the carpenter comes down hard on Tien. He needs to be making useful objects, not wooden horses no matter how pretty.

 

Seeing his son's talent lay in artistry as opposed to carpentry, then yes Lirin could have decided to move to a larger town. In there, Tien's potential would have been better served. And of course Tien does not want to move... Do you know many 13 years old who wants to move? But I bet he would have loved his new rewarding life being tutored by a true artisan as opposed to a mere small village carpenter.

I didn't miss it. The same day that Tien gives Kaladin the horse is the day they are both conscripted into the army. It is ridiculous to expect Lirin to have known that Tien had this gift without any signs of it, so saying that it would help Tien is a moot point. Yes, we know that, but there is absolutely no way that Lirin could know that. Tien was gone as soon as the talen manifested, before Lirin even knew about it. In fact, it's possible that Lirin never found out about his previously unknown talent, considering he had maybe two hours and twenty minutes between when he showed Kaladin that horse and was marched off to war. Maybe if Lirin had seen it, that point could be made, but Lirin can't be judged for that when there was no signs of his talent manifested before Tien was taken away from them. 

 

 

 

It would have take them away from Roshone's grudge. In a larger town, they would not have been singled out as much. Lirin would have been able to secure a more steady income and may have been able to afford Kal's instruction on his own. As I mentioned above, Tien would have done better. In would have been a good move, but for some reasons yet unknown, Lirin wanted to stay in Heartstone.

 

 

So basically, Lirin should have turned tail and run, abondoning the town to Roshone, and leaving the townspeople without a surgeon, basically solidifying his guilt in all of their minds, and ruining their reputation in the place Lirin has dedicated his entire life to? I don't buy that. 

As far as securing in income, that's the whole point! Roshone could've ruined free medical care for the whole town. All Lirin had to do was decide to start charging, but he didn't, because that's the kind of person he was. He didn't even charge Roshone, because that's the kind of person he was. Lirin never became spiteful, he never tried to strike back. Lirin probably could've afforded Kal's income if he had been charging the town the whole time, but he hadn't because he expected Wistiow to help. 

 

As I stated above, the Tien point cannot be made, because there's no way possible that Lirin could have known that. This does not detract from his character, nor does it make him more responsible. As for reasons unknown, do you not feel an affinity for your hometown? If you do, now imagine that every single person from the town that you know, you had a hand in making their lives better. You healed them. You cared for their parents, them, and their children. Then a rich person moves in and starts making everyone you know miserable, and has a grudge against you. You wouldn't feel any obligation to the town or the people that you had been caring for for years? 

 

 

 

Maybe it is not illegal according to Alethkar's laws, but it is still fishy. As for Wistiow, we have no proof he did intended to give out those spheres. Lirin assumed he would, but he had no firm evidence. Sad, but true.

 

I found a quote that definitively shows it was not illegal, out of Roshone's own mouth:

 

 

"You hid behind the law, sneering at me surgeon," Roshone called to Lirin.

44 The Weeping

 

Not illegal. Fishy yes. Way way way way WAY less fishy than conscripting a young boy into the army for revenge, and forcing a teenage girl to marry you for money.

 

We have way more evidence to say there was an agreement than to say there wasn't! If we have text stating that a thing existed, and no text saying it didn't, how can you say there's no firm evidence?

 

 

"I knew that, with his death, we would lose the promise of a union. Laral had not yet reached her day of majority, and the new citylord wouldn't let a darkeyes take her inheritance through marriage."

. . .
"I made certain that promises were kept. I had to do something. I couldn't trust to the generosity of the new citylord. Wisely, as you can see. 

37-sides. 

 

Given the abundance of text that states there was an agreement, and the absence of text stating that one absolutely did not exist, in order to say that there wasn't an agreement, Lirin has to be a liar, which destroys all of his character development to be a moral person. 

 

I'd like to go back and revisit your refutation of the philosophies as well:

 

Philosophy of Purpose-Actions: It is true Lirin did not try to perpetuate evil as opposed to Roshone, but he was not acting in a way to secure his family's future. If he were, then the family would have left Heartstone. He stole so he could send his son to Karbranth. He stole for a dream he failed to live as a boy. There is selfishness in this.

 

Philosphy of Ideals: Kal does not need to go to Karbranth to become a surgeon and this save lifes. Kal needs to go to Karbranth to become a surgeon of enough renowned to marry into a lighteyed family and thus gain status. There is a big difference here. Whereas I would not call Lirin evil, his motives were not entirely pure. Roshone however  is plain evil, no question asked.

 

The Philosophy of Aspiration-Objective: Again, Kal would have become a surgeon without the spheres. He would have saved lifes anyway. Lirin's action do not serve his family, they serve his dreams. If Lirin had really wanted to serve his family, they would have left town. They would have moved to a larger town where Tien's talent would have found a voice.

 
Purpose-I still see no evidence of Lirin trying to live through Kaladin, and no real proof that moving would have helped his family. His intent was for his son to have a better life. This philosophy states that actions cannot be evil, it is the intentions behind them that are evil. This exists independently from any secondary motives Lirin might have had. The action is justified. 

 

Ideals-Kaladin is already a high enough Nahn to marry into a lighteyed family, since he is the second Nahn, regardless of whether he becomes a surgeon or not. Regardless Lirin is trying to remove the evil of sickness and injury from the world by having his son become a surgeon.   The action is justified. 

 

Aspiration-Your point doesn't refute the philosophy at all! Objective is weighed against methods. The objective to have Kaladin become a surgeon. That is a worthy goal, and far outweighs the small ethical matter. The action is justified. It is irrelevant in this philosophy as to whether or not something would happen. The philosophy considers the goals and the actions and no other variables.  

Edited June 29, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Aleksiel]

Well, Lirin basically confessed to Kaladin he stole the spheres, so he thought he committed a crime. It's possible to argue what Lirin did was only immoral without being illegal, but Lirin knows the law better than any reader and didn't argue that he didn't actually steal the spheres. If he's guilty of a crime in his mind, then I think he most likely committed it. Unlike Kal, Lirin never seemed like the type of guy who'd blame himself without a reason. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

He did something underhanded and unethical, but he is an incredibly moral person. Of course he's going to feel guilty over it. Especially since it was done during the last moments of a friend's life. As for whether it's immoral, that depends on your perceptions, and according to the different philosophies we've been shown they have on Roshar, what he did was right, and as justified as Jasnah killing the footpads. Sometimes you're faced with a hard choice that leaves you feeling guilty.

I've already argued the legality point to death. If it had been illegal according to their laws, there'd be no getting around it. Alethi law doesn't address that. It's legal, ergo he's not a thief.

From what I've seen on the thread, most people's problem with Lirin is he should have trusted Wistiow to give them the spheres. Ok, so where does that leave Lirin and his family? Personally, knowing exactly the type of person Roshone is, I think nothing would change for the better.

Wistiow died before becoming lucid, the sphere's don't become Lirin's and he loses the betrothal for Kaladin, both of which were why he could afford to not charge for surgery.

Roshone shows up, blames Lirin for Wistiow's death, then takes a quick trip to the surgery to grab the spheres, which Lirin has no official claim over. Now, Lirin can no longer operate as easily, or as flexibly as he used to, and the whole town suffers, although Lirin and his family live more comfortably than they would had he taken the spheres. A few months down the road, and Roshone goes hunting with his son. Rillar dies. Lirin tries to explain the rules of surgery, and even makes the point that he might have been able to save him if he had the spheres. He also makes the point that with those spheres, Kaladin could get sent to Kharbranth to become a better surgeon who could've saved Rillar. Roshone doesn't listen and blames Lirin for Rillar's death. Roshone calls his cousin into town, and enacts his revenge on Lirin for being unable to save his son. Tien gets conscripted, and Kaladin follows.

Roshone took a dislike to Hearthstone, and to Lirin immediately on arriving. The very first thing Roshone does on arriving at Hearthstone is completely absolve himself of any guilt relating to his relegation to Hearthstone, and he dumps it on Lirin, before he ever gets a whiff of stolen spheres.

"What is your name?"

"Lirin, Brightlord, Hearthstone's surgeon."

"Ah," Roshone said, "You're the one who let old Wistiow die." The Brightlord's expression darkened. "In a way, it's your fault I'm in this miserable quarter of the kingdom."

25 The Butcher

Roshone has already cause the deaths of two innocent people. Why do we assume that things would be any different had Lirin not taken the spheres? Rillar would still die, and Roshone would place the blame at Lirin's feet. The only thing I see changing is the amount of satisfaction that Roshone gets at enacting his revenge. There's been several posts defending Roshone because his actions were legal, even though of absolutely vile moral value. Lirin's actions are legal-if questionable, and are justified by in-world morality. Edited June 29, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Aleksiel]

Oh, I don't think Lirin shouldn't have done it. My point is he seemed to  believe he committed a crime, not just an immoral (by his standards) action. Whether or not that's technically true is another story.

[AerionBFII]

Good thread!!

I always pictured Lirin to be like Tam from WOT a small man from a little village with a big presence.

I could picture him and old Dalinar getting along well!

His mother sounds interesting her family being from Mr.T's domain I think there will be a plot involving them although it is just a hunch