Dalinar and Lirin

[Moogle]

Even if Dalinar had checked on Roshone , how was Dalinar supposed to do anything about him? Roshone didn't really do anything illegal.

 

Gavilar was king. He could have done pretty much anything he darn well pleased at the time. If Dalinar discovered that Roshone was ruling as a tyrant and causing misery, Gavilar could have sent Sadeas a few words of encouragement to deal with the problem. One of Sadeas' men acting like he did could easily be seen as an embarrassment to Sadeas. Kaladin notes how big the lighteyes are on punishing their own for appearances.

 

Yes but has others pointed out, it would have been wrong for Dalinar to step within Sadeas princedom to check on one of his men.... The princedoms may have united under Galivar's banner, they remain furiously independent. Sadeas would have never accepted Dalinar stepping in this way. True he keeps bad control over his city lords, but that does not allow Dalinar to do it in his steed.

 

Sadeas would never have had to know. Spying is generally accepted and encouraged in Alethi society, so far as I can tell. If you're speaking in a moral sense, ie. Dalinar should not spy on Sadeas because that's wrong, then I think we're ultimately hitting an impasse and that's really as far as we can go in this discussion.

 

 

You can't fault the man for not behaving outside what is expected of him.

 

That's precisely what I'm doing. I have unrealistic expectations of people and assume they'll go above and beyond what they're "expected" to do. Dalinar, if he thought about the situation, should have realized letting Roshone go be free in his own little corner of the world might lead to bad things happening. I think that most people have an obligation to make sure that something like that doesn't happen, particularly when it wouldn't take much effort on their part (as I said, one order from Dalinar taking a minute or two and a few spheres would have been sufficient every few months). This might be a point on which we can't really reach an agreement. I think it's everyone's responsibility to go beyond what they're expected to do, if that makes any sense.

[Aleksiel]

Gavilar was king. He could have done pretty much anything he darn well pleased at the time. If Dalinar discovered that Roshone was ruling as a tyrant and causing misery, Gavilar could have sent Sadeas a few words of encouragement to deal with the problem. One of Sadeas' men acting like he did could easily be seen as an embarrassment to Sadeas. Kaladin notes how big the lighteyes are on punishing their own for appearances.

 

Roshone made people stop donating to Kal's family a year after he became a citylord. Nothing else of bad significance was pointed in Kal's flashbacks to that point, thus Roshone wasn't really terrorizing the town.

 

Roshone son's died five and a half years prior Kal's stay with the bridgecrews, which was almost six years after Gavilar's assassination. That was the that made him a truly terrible and bitter person and it happened after Gavilar's death. While it's said in Kal's flashback that people were afraid to openly help Kaladin's family and oppose their citylord, there's no sign of Roshone tormenting anyone else.

[maxal]

...

 

But you can't ask for people to always think outside the box, to always be innovative and moreover to be ahead of their time... Dalinar behaved perfectly according to what was expected of him given his rank and position. Could he have done more? Maybe, but then again it would have entail going against his brother, the King, and Sadeas, a powerful ally. As Dalinar pointed out, there were other things at stake and yes they do matter. Perhaps they appear insignificant to the day to day life of a family of darkeyes in a remote village, but if Galivar's kingdom failed, civil war suddenly becomes a reality.

 

Roshone is a bully and he kept acting like one as city lord, but as long as he maintained his city in order, as long a people did not massively asked for the right to leave, there was no reason to spy on him nor to investigate him. If Lirin thought Roshone was out of line, he could have written a petition to the Highprince and demand and investigation: he did not. Why? Because Lirin is guilty of what has befallen on his family. He stole those spheres which is why Roshone took an instant dislike of him. Roshone could not prove Lirin's guilt, but he tried to undermine them such as to force Lirin to come forward.

 

Bottom line is Roshone did not act out of place. He acted out of malice, spite and vengeance by putting Tien's name on that list, but his suspicions on Lirin were founded. His ploy to uncover it was cruel to this poor family, but it is not Dalinar's fault. Dalinar cannot be held responsible for every lighteye's behavior in the kingdom, nor can he spend so much time making sure every one of them behave honorably. He probably had much more important matters to see to. And even if he did? What should he have done? Demote again Roshone? On which ground? What did Roshone do as city lord to merit such punishment? Being hateful? Hardly a crime.... Straining a family? The family is guilty of thievery. Once the initial punishment was issued, what ground did Dalinar have to further punish Roshone?

 

 

Roshone made people stop donating to Kal's family a year after he became a citylord. Nothing else of bad significance was pointed in Kal's flashbacks to that point, thus Roshone wasn't really terrorizing the town.

 

Roshone son's died five and a half years prior Kal's stay with the bridgecrews, which was almost six years after Gavilar's assassination. That was the that made him a truly terrible and bitter person and it happened after Gavilar's death. While it's said in Kal's flashback that people were afraid to openly help Kaladin's family and oppose their citylord, there's no sign of Roshone tormenting anyone else.

 

One of the main reason Roshone tormented Kaladin's family was because of the stolen spheres. He hopes if he cut out all their means to raise money, it would force them to spend the spheres and thus confess. Lirin stubbornly refused to admit anything.

 

I agree his anger at Lirin for his son's death was misplaced, but it can be, partly, explained by grief. It didn't help Lirin thought Roshone was stupid to hunt a whitespine, which I agree is stupid, but not according to high ranked lighteyes.

[Aleksiel]

Bottom line is Roshone did not act out of place. He acted out of malice, spite and vengeance by putting Tien's name on that list, but his suspicions on Lirin were founded. His ploy to uncover it was cruel to this poor family, but it is not Dalinar's fault. Dalinar cannot be held responsible for every lighteye's behavior in the kingdom, nor can he spend so much time making sure every one of them behave honorably. He probably had much more important matters to see to. And even if he did? What should he have done? Demote again Roshone? On which ground? What did Roshone do as city lord to merit such punishment? Being hateful? Hardly a crime.... Straining a family? The family is guilty of thievery. Once the initial punishment was issued, what ground did Dalinar have to further punish Roshone?

 

 

One of the main reason Roshone tormented Kaladin's family was because of the stolen spheres. He hopes if he cut out all their means to raise money, it would force them to spend the spheres and thus confess. Lirin stubbornly refused to admit anything.

 

I agree his anger at Lirin for his son's death was misplaced, but it can be, partly, explained by grief. It didn't help Lirin thought Roshone was stupid to hunt a whitespine, which I agree is stupid, but not according to high ranked lighteyes.

 

 

What is more, I don't see spying on Roshone as doable. Hearthstone is a remote and small town without many traveling merchants passing by, let alone travelers. Any outsider would have been noticed and likely remembered; regular visits would have been immediately suspicious. 

 

I agree with you and what you said was the point I wanted to make. Dalinar wasn't completely unreasonable to think things would be ok. Roshone didn't break the law again and despite his personal conflict with Lirin, he ruled Hearthstone acceptably. I can't really say Kaladin's family were blameless victims up until Tien.

 

Roshone didn't torment everyone or random people, he was focused on Lirin, who was indeed a criminal; no reason for anyone to petition the highprince to intervene. And even if Dalinar was somehow successfully spying, he wouldn't have found out anything incriminating on Roshone. What is more, Roshone's disputable actions were after Gavilar's death when Dalinara and Sadeas were no longer in good relations and Dalinar couldn't have done a thing anyway. 

 

edit: spelling

Edited June 25, 2014 by Aleksiel

[cem]

But you can't ask for people to always think outside the box, to always be innovative and moreover to be ahead of their time... Dalinar behaved perfectly according to what was expected of him given his rank and position. Could he have done more? Maybe, but then again it would have entail going against his brother, the King, and Sadeas, a powerful ally. As Dalinar pointed out, there were other things at stake and yes they do matter. Perhaps they appear insignificant to the day to day life of a family of darkeyes in a remote village, but if Galivar's kingdom failed, civil war suddenly becomes a reality.

 

Roshone is a bully and he kept acting like one as city lord, but as long as he maintained his city in order, as long a people did not massively asked for the right to leave, there was no reason to spy on him nor to investigate him. If Lirin thought Roshone was out of line, he could have written a petition to the Highprince and demand and investigation: he did not. Why? Because Lirin is guilty of what has befallen on his family. He stole those spheres which is why Roshone took an instant dislike of him. Roshone could not prove Lirin's guilt, but he tried to undermine them such as to force Lirin to come forward.

 

Bottom line is Roshone did not act out of place. He acted out of malice, spite and vengeance by putting Tien's name on that list, but his suspicions on Lirin were founded. His ploy to uncover it was cruel to this poor family, but it is not Dalinar's fault. Dalinar cannot be held responsible for every lighteye's behavior in the kingdom, nor can he spend so much time making sure every one of them behave honorably. He probably had much more important matters to see to. And even if he did? What should he have done? Demote again Roshone? On which ground? What did Roshone do as city lord to merit such punishment? Being hateful? Hardly a crime.... Straining a family? The family is guilty of thievery. Once the initial punishment was issued, what ground did Dalinar have to further punish Roshone?

 

 

 

One of the main reason Roshone tormented Kaladin's family was because of the stolen spheres. He hopes if he cut out all their means to raise money, it would force them to spend the spheres and thus confess. Lirin stubbornly refused to admit anything.

 

I agree his anger at Lirin for his son's death was misplaced, but it can be, partly, explained by grief. It didn't help Lirin thought Roshone was stupid to hunt a whitespine, which I agree is stupid, but not according to high ranked lighteyes.

What you have in Roshone is a man who knowingly and willingly abused his power for personal gain. He destroyed two people's lives to gain wealth. I don't care what the situation is, there is absolutely nothing that can justify putting someone like Roshone to another position of power with even less oversight.

 

And Dalinar knew that exactly. If he hadn't, he wouldn't have argued for Roshone being made a tenner. He knew what the moral and legal thing was, but he chose to just give up because it was more convenient. Roshone knew important people, and the dead people were just some nobody darkeyes after all. That is corruption. Justice has to be blind, otherwise there is no justice.

 

Though, there is a bigger problem of course. Both Dalinar and Gavilar ignored their duties and left Elhokar--a nineteen year old (or somewhere around that age)--in charge of the kingdom, all alone, for months. Even though it is obvious even years later he is nothing but an overgrown boy. Even though it's glaringly obviously he is VERY, VERY liable to being manipulated. Years. Later. Obviously Dalinar was dealing with some personal stuff at the time, and obviously this was first and foremost Gavilar's fault. But these guys killed thousands, personally, to unite the kingdom, in the name of the greater good. I have no sympathy for whatever they were going through. They chose to rule the kingdom. They should have been there to actually rule the kingdom.

 

You are also arguing that Roshone didn't really break any laws with regards to Tien. You're right. But laws can't cover every situation perfectly, because it's not possible to predict life perfectly. No set of laws is perfect, and there is always people who will skirt the law. It was obvious Roshone was such a person. So again, he shouldn't have been in a position to have power over other people's lives.

 

Anyway, it wouldn't have taken a genius to figure out what kind of a douche bag Roshone was. They obviously didn't know that the chain of events they created would lead to Tien's death or Kaladin's enslavement, but they should have known something bad was going to happen. The decision to exile him to Hearthstone where he had power over thousands was cowardly, irresponsible, and inexcusable on Dalinar's and Gavilar's parts, and Elhokar's to a lesser degree because of his incompetence.

Edited June 25, 2014 by cem

[Aleksiel]

Dalinar, who let Roshone walk away, isn't the Dalinar we see in WoK. Pre-Gavilar's death Dalinar didn't follow a strong moral code, nor did he care about being anything but a warlord. Today's Dalinar is a different person than he was 7 years ago. 

 

The Roshone affair is one example of how Dalinar became a better person - pre-Code following Dalinar let go a proven criminal without thinking much about it, WoR Dalinar set a trap for one of his best friends on the sole word of one of his guards. if Dalinar had acted 7 years ago (while Gavilar was still alive) the way we expect him to handle the same thing now, then Dalinar wouldn't have changed in the slightest, which would be immensely odd since everyone claim how much Dalinar changed after Gavilar died.

 

How Dalinar handled Amaram's  affair compared to Roshone's is showing how different a person he has become for good. 

[cem]

Dalinar, who let Roshone walk away, isn't the Dalinar we see in WoK. Pre-Gavilar's death Dalinar didn't follow a strong moral code, nor did he care about being anything but a warlord. Today's Dalinar is a different person than he was 7 years ago. 

 

The Roshone affair is one example of how Dalinar became a better person - pre-Code following Dalinar let go a proven criminal without thinking much about it, WoR Dalinar set a trap for one of his best friends on the sole word of one of his guards. if Dalinar had acted 7 years ago (while Gavilar was still alive) the way we expect him to handle the same thing now, then Dalinar wouldn't have changed in the slightest, which would be immensely odd since everyone claim how much Dalinar changed after Gavilar died.

 

How Dalinar handled Amaram's  affair compared to Roshone's is showing how different a person he has become for good. 

Absolutely. Let's face it folks, Dalinar may be all manner of awesome right now, but he was as bad as they come back then.

[Patrick Star]

I really don't think that Dalinar and Lirin would converse well (at first, at least).

 

It'll probably be something like this:

 

[happyman]

There were a lot of factors in Roshone's tormenting Kaladin's family, but I think we are making the mistake of thinking "There must be somebody to blame."

 

As far as I can tell, the people to most directly blame, if it absolutely must be done, are Lirin, Roshone, and Amaran.  Everyone else is too far removed from the relevant consequences to be really "blamable."  Which isn't the same as saying that Kaladin won't hold a grudge against Dalinar for not going with the harshest consequence, but I don't think it is fair.

 

There is no one person at fault.  A series of decisions, many bad, some possibly neutral, by different people, all led into the situation.  This is life, folks.

[Moogle]

What is more, I don't see spying on Roshone as doable. Hearthstone is a remote and small town without many traveling merchants passing by, let alone travelers. Any outsider would have been noticed and likely remembered; regular visits would have been immediately suspicious.

 

Okay, so it's suspicious.

 

What then? It's not illegal to go to Hearthstone when you have the Right of Travel. They can't stop you because you're not breaking any laws.

 

Also, I'd argue you could do the spying via ardents, who would not be suspicious at all.

 

 

I agree with you and what you said was the point I wanted to make. Dalinar wasn't completely unreasonable to think things would be ok. Roshone didn't break the law again and despite his personal conflict with Lirin, he ruled Hearthstone acceptably. I can't really say Kaladin's family were blameless victims up until Tien.

 

He didn't break the law that we know of, but our perspective is from a child. Kaladin's parents kept quiet on a number of things, and they may have heard bad things that Kaladin didn't.

 

Dalinar didn't send a spy, so how would he know whether or not bad things were happening? It's irresponsible of him not to even check.

 

 

Roshone didn't torment everyone or random people, he was focused on Lirin, who was indeed a criminal; no reason for anyone to petition the highprince to intervene. And even if Dalinar was somehow successfully spying, he wouldn't have found out anything incriminating on Roshone. What is more, Roshone's disputable actions were after Gavilar's death when Dalinara and Sadeas were no longer in good relations and Dalinar couldn't have done a thing anyway. 

 

Elhokar still could have commanded Sadeas to do something with Roshone. I'm not convinced, here.

 

Roshone is a bully and he kept acting like one as city lord, but as long as he maintained his city in order, as long a people did not massively asked for the right to leave, there was no reason to spy on him nor to investigate him.

 

Except for the part where he's previously abused power. That should be enough for anyone to want to keep an eye on him.

 

 

If Lirin thought Roshone was out of line, he could have written a petition to the Highprince and demand and investigation: he did not. Why? Because Lirin is guilty of what has befallen on his family. He stole those spheres which is why Roshone took an instant dislike of him. Roshone could not prove Lirin's guilt, but he tried to undermine them such as to force Lirin to come forward.

 

Given that Kaladin received no reply to his letter, I'm actually suspicious that Roshone has control of letters. And, well, it's Sadeas, so I wouldn't blame Lirin if he didn't try. And, of course, Lirin would probably see writing to the Highprince as Roshone "winning". Lirin's entire reason for not leaving Hearthstone was because he was a stubborn fool and didn't want Roshone to "win". I also see no reason why the highprince would be obligated to investigate Roshone based on the words of one surgeon who's in a feud with Roshone.

 

 

Bottom line is Roshone did not act out of place. He acted out of malice, spite and vengeance by putting Tien's name on that list, but his suspicions on Lirin were founded. His ploy to uncover it was cruel to this poor family, but it is not Dalinar's fault. Dalinar cannot be held responsible for every lighteye's behavior in the kingdom, nor can he spend so much time making sure every one of them behave honorably.

 

I'm not saying Dalinar has an obligation to police every lighteyes, just those he knows are scum that he could have prevented from harming others if he didn't have political reasons not to.

 

Also, you've said that Roshone only went after Lirin because he's a criminal, but that's not true. Roshone first singled out Lirin because it was Lirin's fault that the old citylord died.

[Aleksiel]

....

 

You expect the Blackthorn to had done something Dalinar the Bondsmith would do, which I believe is unreasonable. The Blackthorn checking on Roshone would have been completely out of character and would also undermine the story of Dalinar's progress since Gavilar's death.

 

The Blackthorn didn't care much about people, politics or anything that didn't include wine and fighting. The contrast between how Dalinar handled Amaram's case now and Roshone's affair in the past, shows Dalinar's growth as a character; that he has indeed become a better person and a politician.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Moogle]

You expect the Blackthorn to had done something Dalinar the Bondsmith would do, which I believe is unreasonable. The Blackthorn checking on Roshone would have been completely out of character and would also undermine the story of Dalinar's progress since Gavilar's death.

 

The Blackthorn didn't care much about people, politics or anything that didn't include wine and fighting. The contrast between how Dalinar handled Amaram's case now and Roshone's affair in the past, shows Dalinar's growth as a character; that he has indeed become a better person and a politician.

 

I agree, and I've stated as much several times in this thread. The Blackthorn would never have done what I suggested. I'm not saying it was out of character, I'm just stating that Dalinar was (in part, and frankly not very much but he was a little bit) responsible for the terrible things that have happened to Kaladin.

 

I think this entire discussion is based on the fact that we have different ideas of what people are "responsible" for. I'm sorry for being unclear on the matter. You've argued your points very effectively, and have changed a few of my views on things involving Roshone.

[maxal]

What you have in Roshone is a man who knowingly and willingly abused his power for personal gain. He destroyed two people's lives to gain wealth. I don't care what the situation is, there is absolutely nothing that can justify putting someone like Roshone to another position of power with even less oversight.

 

And Dalinar knew that exactly. If he hadn't, he wouldn't have argued for Roshone being made a tenner. He knew what the moral and legal thing was, but he chose to just give up because it was more convenient. Roshone knew important people, and the dead people were just some nobody darkeyes after all. That is corruption. Justice has to be blind, otherwise there is no justice.

 

Yes, but as I have argued before, the case could be made the current punishment was harsh enough. Sometimes criminals do get out with lighter sentences. Is it fair? No. Did he deserved another punishment fro his crime? Certainly, but that does not put the blame on Kaladin's misfortune on Dalinar's head. Dalinar could have sent another very honorable lighteye in his place and get the same result.

 

Why?

 

Because Lirin is a stubborn thief who put his dreams of grandeur before the safety of his family. No matter who you put in charge, the truth would have come out at some point. Lirin's family would have paid a price. Albeit, the price was too high, but Tien's enrollment cannot be blamed on Dalinar! The one person to blame for this is Amaram. He was the one in charge, he had the right to refuse Tien based on age: he didn't. He should have put Roshone back in his place. He didn't.

 

Dalinar cannot be personally overseeing lighteyes several dahn lower than him. He has people to that. It was AMARAM job to do that, he man he trusted. Alright, turns out Amaram is a scumbag, but nobody knew that then.

 

 

Though, there is a bigger problem of course. Both Dalinar and Gavilar ignored their duties and left Elhokar--a nineteen year old (or somewhere around that age)--in charge of the kingdom, all alone, for months. Even though it is obvious even years later he is nothing but an overgrown boy. Even though it's glaringly obviously he is VERY, VERY liable to being manipulated. Years. Later. Obviously Dalinar was dealing with some personal stuff at the time, and obviously this was first and foremost Gavilar's fault. But these guys killed thousands, personally, to unite the kingdom, in the name of the greater good. I have no sympathy for whatever they were going through. They chose to rule the kingdom. They should have been there to actually rule the kingdom.

 

I completely agree with you here. Letting Elhokar in charge was foolish. Even today, Dalinar unstoppable faith in Elhokar is misplaced and dangerous. He forgives everything when it comes to Elhokar. I swear I sometimes feel he loves him more than his own sons We could also argue it was selfish of Dalinar to leave Elhokar in charge so he could seek the Nightwatcher. He should have chosen a better moment. He is the grown-up: he should have acted like one. This was a huge mistake on Dalinar's part, but I just think tracing it down to Tien's death and Kal enslavement is really to much of a stretch.

 

You are also arguing that Roshone didn't really break any laws with regards to Tien. You're right. But laws can't cover every situation perfectly, because it's not possible to predict life perfectly. No set of laws is perfect, and there is always people who will skirt the law. It was obvious Roshone was such a person. So again, he shouldn't have been in a position to have power over other people's lives.

 

Yes but Amaram had the last word. If Tien's enrollment was this misplaced, he should have refused him. I personally blame Amaram. He was in charge, he should not have left is man get away with petty full vengeance.

[Moogle]

Because Lirin is a stubborn thief who put his dreams of grandeur before the safety of his family. No matter who you put in charge, the truth would have come out at some point. Lirin's family would have paid a price. Albeit, the price was too high, but Tien's enrollment cannot be blamed on Dalinar! The one person to blame for this is Amaram. He was the one in charge, he had the right to refuse Tien based on age: he didn't. He should have put Roshone back in his place. He didn't.

 

The law actually dictates that Roshone could send Tien. Amaram couldn't refuse. Or so I gather from their conversation:

“He’s too young,” Lirin declared. Their neighbors sidled away, leaving Lirin’s family to stand alone in the rain.

Amaram frowned. “In the cities, youths as young as eight and nine are accepted into the military.”

“Lighteyed sons!” Lirin said. “To be trained as officers. They aren’t sent into battle!”

Amaram frowned more deeply. He stepped out into the rain, walking up to the family. “How old are you, son?” he asked Tien.

“He’s thirteen,” Lirin said.

Amaram glanced at him. “The surgeon. I’ve heard of you.” He sighed, glancing back at Amaram. “I haven’t the time to engage in your petty, small-town politics, cousin. Isn’t there another boy that will do?”

“It is my choice!” Roshone insisted. “Given me by the dictates of law. I send those the town can spare—well, that boy is the first one we can spare.”

Lirin stepped forward, eyes full of anger. Highmarshal Amaram caught him by the arm. “Do not do something you would regret, darkborn. Roshone has acted according to the law.”

...

“I want to take Tien’s place,” Kaladin said.

“Not allowed!” Roshone said from inside the carriage. “The law says I may choose.”

Amaram nodded grimly.

 

It was either that or else Amaram couldn't institute a draft at all, I think. I might be wrong.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Moogle

[maxal]

The law actually dictates that Roshone could send Tien. Amaram couldn't refuse. Or so I gather from their conversation:

 

It was either that or else Amaram couldn't institute a draft at all, I think. I might be wrong.

 

Oh... This is not how I remember it... Good catch. I have always been blaming Amaram for this. Well, I was blaming Roshone as well, but I figured Amaram should have been honorable and refused. I agree Roshone was overstepping his position and using his power in a bad way. Sending Tien away was cruel, but sadly legal

 

8-9 years old..... Wow. Even to be trained as officers. Lighteyes are sick.

 

I wonder, how old were the other boys that were sent? And why is it Kaladin was not allowed to take his place? I understand Roshone was being mean as he could have accepted, although other boys had to sent and he could still insisted on sending Tien. Tien was first on the list....

[Zea mays]

Tien's was the last name on the list. Roshone specifically tells his clerk to read the first two names and the very last one.

The law is not made %100 percent clear, but Amaram manages to appear like an honorable noble who does not have the specific local authority to override his cousin's petty whims, despite his disgust with him. That's how Kal sees him until, well, you know.

I wonder if Lirin saw through Amaram's "ideal light-eyes" facade.

[cem]

Yes, but as I have argued before, the case could be made the current punishment was harsh enough. Sometimes criminals do get out with lighter sentences. Is it fair? No. Did he deserved another punishment fro his crime? Certainly, but that does not put the blame on Kaladin's misfortune on Dalinar's head. Dalinar could have sent another very honorable lighteye in his place and get the same result.

 

Why?

 

Because Lirin is a stubborn thief who put his dreams of grandeur before the safety of his family. No matter who you put in charge, the truth would have come out at some point. Lirin's family would have paid a price. Albeit, the price was too high, but Tien's enrollment cannot be blamed on Dalinar! The one person to blame for this is Amaram. He was the one in charge, he had the right to refuse Tien based on age: he didn't. He should have put Roshone back in his place. He didn't.

 

Dalinar cannot be personally overseeing lighteyes several dahn lower than him. He has people to that. It was AMARAM job to do that, he man he trusted. Alright, turns out Amaram is a scumbag, but nobody knew that then.

Well, I don't really agree two murders can ever be justly punished with reassignment to another town, but okay, I'll agree that the case could be made. Freedom of speech and all that.   Although if that was the case, I don't see why Dalinar argued for Roshone being a tenner. I interpret this as that was the fitting punishment in the Alethi law, but Dalinar and co. didn't have the spine to uphold the law.

 

Look, you claim that he could've chosen somebody else and the same thing would've happened. Sure, anything is possible. And I agree, then, that would have been an honest mistake, and I wouldn't blame Dalinar for it. We all make mistakes.

 

But that's not the case here. Roshone is a known scumbag. Did anyone believe for a second that he was going to turn his life around and be a responsible and benevolent leader to his people? I can't believe they could possibly be that stupid. This is not just a bad decision, it is negligence, abandonment of duty, and corruption.

 

As far as Lirin's crimes go, the punishment of thievery is not the forcible conscription of the thief's son. That was just Roshone abusing his power to get revenge for his own son's death. For which, the blame falls on the crown for making a murderer the citylord. And let's not forget it wasn't only Lirin that suffered under Roshone, it is the whole town.

 

Oh... This is not how I remember it... Good catch. I have always been blaming Amaram for this. Well, I was blaming Roshone as well, but I figured Amaram should have been honorable and refused. I agree Roshone was overstepping his position and using his power in a bad way. Sending Tien away was cruel, but sadly legal

 

8-9 years old..... Wow. Even to be trained as officers. Lighteyes are sick.

 

I wonder, how old were the other boys that were sent? And why is it Kaladin was not allowed to take his place? I understand Roshone was being mean as he could have accepted, although other boys had to sent and he could still insisted on sending Tien. Tien was first on the list....

They were around fifteen or seventeen, I think. And one grown man enlisted, too.

 

Kaladin couldn't replace Tien, because that would've been less dramatic and made a worse story.   But from an in-world perspective, I don't think the problem was that Kaladin couldn't replace Tien so much as it was that no one had the authority to override Roshone's decision, and Amaram didn't care enough about one darkeyes life to make a big deal of it.

[maxal]

Well, I don't really agree two murders can ever be justly punished with reassignment to another town, but okay, I'll agree that the case could be made. Freedom of speech and all that.   Although if that was the case, I don't see why Dalinar argued for Roshone being a tenner. I interpret this as that was the fitting punishment in the Alethi law, but Dalinar and co. didn't have the spine to uphold the law.

 

Well, Alethkar is not a very fair place.... Criminals end up being rewarded and innocents slaughtered more often than not so I would not be surprised if such a punishment was considered "acceptable"....  I get that Dalinar argued for a harsher punishment, but was over-ruled. It is true he may have lacked the spine to uphold the law, however it is also possible the impacts of making Roshone a tenner outshone the potential harm he may do in a small town. Alliances and such.

 

 

 

But that's not the case here. Roshone is a known scumbag. Did anyone believe for a second that he was going to turn his life around and be a responsible and benevolent leader to his people? I can't believe they could possibly be that stupid. This is not just a bad decision, it is negligence, abandonment of duty, and corruption.

 

As far as Lirin's crimes go, the punishment of thievery is not the forcible conscription of the thief's son. That was just Roshone abusing his power to get revenge for his own son's death. For which, the blame falls on the crown for making a murderer the citylord. And let's not forget it wasn't only Lirin that suffered under Roshone, it is the whole town.

 

Maybe they did. I feel Elhokar may have believed it and, as Dalinar said, leniency was something he wanted to encourage in Elhokar. One could argue here how it was Dalinar's problem to inculcate anything to Elhokar as he is not his son, but still it was not a bad thing. Dalinar's "decision" was not ill-based. I agree Roshone should not have been put in charge of people, but I still do not blame Dalinar for Kaladin's family misfortune.

 

Oh I never claimed sending Tien to war was a right punishment for Lirin's thievery, but I do think it stopped Lirin from taking the necessary actions to make the feud ends before it got too far. Lirin naively thought Roshone had nothing against him and he could outlast him. He wavered his sons in the end. Besides, Tien was not doing too well in their small village. The whole family would have lived better in a larger town. They would have found other people their rank to buddy with, Kal would have become a great surgeon and Tien a superb artisan whose unique pieces would have made the envy of rich lighteyes. In Heartstone, Tien's future was grim at best. Poor kid.

 

 

Kaladin couldn't replace Tien, because that would've been less dramatic and made a worse story.   But from an in-world perspective, I don't think the problem was that Kaladin couldn't replace Tien so much as it was that no one had the authority to override Roshone's decision, and Amaram didn't care enough about one darkeyes life to make a big deal of it.

 

Still I am surprised the law cannot authorized this... He needed a certain number of boys, now he ended up with one boy extra and a three forced conscript. Does not make sense.

[Chrono]

To the issue of who exactly is to blame here: everyone involved. Yes, you heard right. Everyone. (Well, except Kaladin and Tien, of course, but you get the idea).

 

The Dalinar of seven years before was not the Dalinar we all know today. He did some pretty bad things. One of them was this whole Roshone fiasco. I think today's Dalinar would not let that sort of thing happen, but that was the Dalinar of the past. Also, people make mistakes. I'm not saying he's not guilty -- he most definitely is -- but we have to keep these two Dalinars separate. 

 

Roshone's part in this problem is well known. He's basically made Hearthstone from an average village into a place of fear. From the way Lirin describes it, people are afraid to do much of anything. They're afraid of Roshone, they're afraid of Lirin, and they're afraid of the future. You can call that bullying or harassment or whatever you like, but the bottom line is that the state of living in Hearthstone has rapidly decreased. Roshone has made it this way. He's also the one who conscripted Tien in the first place. I hold the most guilt on him, simply because he's technically the reason why all of this happened (I know Dalinar and Gavilar and Elhokar sent him to Hearthstone, but Roshone has caused a lot of trouble on his own with deeds unrelated to the silversmith affair).

 

Amaram doesn't intervene when Tien is called, even though he is obviously unfit for combat and simply a tool for Roshone's pleasure (he obviously heard Roshone's gloating after the whole deal was over, and he could have tried to override the law forcibly -- what was Roshone going to do? Bite him?) However, I feel like there wasn't much Amaram could do -- he had no authority in a legal sense, and it would have been awkward to intervene. What makes Tien different from the other recruits, except that he's basically a form of revenge? You can't really punish revenge when it is done legally.

 

The second most guilty I believe is Lirin. I believe Lirin genuinely loves his children. However, he's made some poor choices, and those choices have led directly to Tien's predicament. It could be argued that if Lirin had not stolen the spheres and trusted that Brightlord Wistiow would give them to him, this entire situation never would have happened. However, he instead broke the law, justified Roshone coming after him, and refused to consider the safety of his family when he accepted the consequences. Lirin and his family still had the right of travel, and he easily could have left. However, sentimental value and his battle with Roshone held him there. Those are both incredibly selfish reasons for staying. No matter how much you are loved in one town, if your family is actively being persecuted and your citylord is trying to find a way to get you in prison or worse, you should leave. Lirin doesn't, and I blame him for that. I sympathize with him, and I think he is a great character, but there is no doubt that he's made some very serious mistakes. Those mistakes led to consequences he never intended and never anticipated.

 

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that this problem is a very messy affair with guilt and blame on all sides. No one is the true culprit here; everyone had a part to play. In a way this is very similar to real life. Rarely do we encounter situations where one clear party is to blame. Basically, a bunch of mistakes and malice led to this whole fiasco happening. It's tragic, but it's true.

[maxal]

Very nice post Chrono. I upvoted you. To think I started this thread with the idea of a "cute" conversation between Lirin and Dalinar on the virtue of being a father........

 

I think you summarized it quite well.

 

Now, what are we going to argue about?

[Aleksiel]

Why blame Dalinar, but not Gavilar and Elhokar? The three of them send Roshone somewhere else. And Sadeas also has a fault since he didn't care what kind of person he put in charge of one of his towns. You can't blame one without the others.

[maxal]

Why blame Dalinar, but not Gavilar and Elhokar? The three of them send Roshone somewhere else. And Sadeas also has a fault since he didn't care what kind of person he put in charge of one of his towns. You can't blame one without the others.

 

Actually, if we were to blame someone other than Roshone, it would need to be Galivar. After all, he was the king. He had the last word. He was supposed to know better. Dalinar, at the time of the event, was the Blackthorn whereas Galivar supposedly was a benevolent and grand king. Well, if he were this great, than he should have known better.

[Aleksiel]

Actually, if we were to blame someone other than Roshone, it would need to be Galivar. After all, he was the king. He had the last word. He was supposed to know better. Dalinar, at the time of the event, was the Blackthorn whereas Galivar supposedly was a benevolent and grand king. Well, if he were this great, than he should have known better.

 

May be he wasn't as good as Dalinar thought he was. Wouldn't be the first time... 

 

I'm ashamed to admit that I forgot something very important in my previous post. Dalinar said they let Roshone go, because he was cousin to powerful lighteyes and they needed the alliance. Whose cousin was Roshone? Amaram's. Honestly, I can't believe Kaladin didn't thought of that and just go kill him himself, but instead he decided against Elhokar. Hello, the man who made you a slave and murdered your friends is the same one who ensured Roshone escaped justice and instead came to harass your family; so he's twice to blame for Tien's death.

 

I really can't believe Kaladin ignored the connection. What a different book WoR could have been.... Any explanation as to why Kal didn't think any of it?  

Edited June 28, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I've been following along in the discussion, and it's been a very intriguing and well justified debate on both sides, but there's one point that's been universally made that I don't accept or agreement, that of Lirin's guilt.

 

Here's the quote from WoK 

 

"Wistiow was not lucid during the final days, Kal," he whispered. "I knew that, with his death, we would lose the promise of a union. Laral had not reached her day of majority, and the new citylord wouldn't let a darkeyes take her inheritance through marriage."

"So you robbed him?" Kal felt himself shrinking. 

"I made certain that promises were kept. I had to do something. I couldn't trust to the generosity of the new citylord. Wisely, as you can see."

WoK Chapter 37

 

 

Everyone has been naming him a robber like he walked in a stole the spheres, but that's not the case. Unless the Alethi have very modern laws about being a sound mental state for signing official paperwork, what he did was not illegal. Unethical maybe, but I wouldn't even argue it was immoral. Here's another snippet from that chapter:

 

 

"Yes, you would win an inquest," Roshone said. "You were so meticulous, preparing the exact right documents> You were the only one with Wistiow when he stamped them. Odd, that none of his clerks were there."

"Those clerks read him the documents." 

"And then left the room."

"Because they were ordered to bu Brightlord Wisitow. They have admitted this I believe."

 

A recurring theme I've noticed in defending Roshone is "he did nothing illegal, it was about seeking revenge." How does that make Lirin more culpable than Roshone? Lirin did nothing illegal as well. In fact, I find Lirin's actions completely justified. Lirin obviously had the respect of Wisitow, and for good reason. Lirin was a surgeon who did not charge for his work. Lirin who provided for a whole town, and expected the citylord to provide for his family. Laral was all but engaged to Kaladin, and then, through a cruel twist of fate, she has to marry not even Rillar, but Roshone, because of Roshone's greed. Yes not illegal, but still it seems like Lirin is getting demonized way more than Roshone, and Roshone is basically forcing himself on a girl half if not a third his age. 

 

Lirin is not a thief, at worst, he falsified documents, but it sounds to me like Wisitow did, in fact, sign those documents himself. If Lirin was a criminal, then Roshone would've been able to win an inquest, but he wasn't. He was a man who was watching all his years of dedication to his hometown crumble away, despite being the best man among them. He saw a way to secure his future for his family, so they wouldn't have to suffer for his seflessness.

 

I also saw quite a few references to Lirin's selfishness. If that was the case, he would've charged for his work. In fact, I would've charged Roshone an incredibly large amount of spheres for the work on him after the hunt. But Lirin is not selfish. He knew he their deal wasn't going to be honored, so he took steps to protect himself and his family. The spheres obviously were not even that important. They had been in the surgery for years on the permanent loan, and without them, Laral still had a dowry large enough that Roshone wouldn't let her go, so why would it even be an issue, other than to satisfy Roshone's greed? He used to own silver shops in Kholinar, is cousin's with Amaram, and had the favor of the king's son, he obviously wasn't hurting for the spheres. 

 

Lirin, in my opinion, is one of the best men in the books. Roshone....is not.  Let's look at some of the in world philosophies, just as Shallan did with Jasnah.

Philosophy of Starkness-All we know is it says kill or be killed. Well, in this instance, take the spheres or lose the chance for your family. Lirin is exonerated.  This is about the only philosophy that could justify Roshone's actions, but nothing that Lirin does endangers Roshone. It's not a kill or be killed scenario. It's just greed. It holds his actions up flimsily at best.

 

Philosophy of Purpose-Actions are not evil, intent is evil. Lirin intended to secure his family's future. This also clears Lirin. Roshone's intent is much less than pure. 

 

Philosphy of Ideals- Removing evil is ultimately moral. Well, this one is harder to apply without information, but I would say evil would be an agreement not being honored. If that's not good enough, those spheres would've ended up in Roshone's hands, and Roshone is definitely evil. Beyond all that, Lirin is taking the spheres to send his son to become a surgeon. Injury and sickness is not directly evil, but close enough for my interpretation of the philosophy. Lirin is still not in the wrong.  Roshone is definitely not attempting to remove evil. Tien isn't evil, and Lirin is not evil.

 

The Philosophy of Aspiration-Objective must be weighed against methods. The steps are irrelevant if the goal is worthy. Lirin's goal is noble and serves his family, and every person that Kaladin could've helped by becoming a surgeon. The steps weren't that reprehensible. Lirin still maintains his virtue.  What's the objective for Roshone? Starve out a family, and take away their future to fatten his purse and to get revenge for an imagined slight against his house. Roshone is a vile person. 

 

I guess I just don't understand where all the contempt for Lirin is coming from. He did nothing at all against the law and his actions are justified in my opinion. So why all the negativity pointed at Lirin?

 

Edit: Philosophies taken from Chapter 39 Burned into Her.

Edited June 28, 2014 by EMTrevor

[maxal]

May be he wasn't as good as Dalinar thought he was. Wouldn't be the first time... 

 

I'm ashamed to admit that I forgot something very important in my previous post. Dalinar said they let Roshone go, because he was cousin to powerful lighteyes and they needed the alliance. Whose cousin was Roshone? Amaram's. Honestly, I can't believe Kaladin didn't thought of that and just go kill him himself, but instead he decided against Elhokar. Hello, the man who made you a slave and murdered your friends is the same one who ensured Roshone escaped justice and instead came to harass your family; so he's twice to blame for Tien's death.

 

I really can't believe Kaladin ignored the connection. What a different book WoR could have been.... Any explanation as to why Kal didn't think any of it?  

 

Did Kal know? I remember Amaram called Roshone "cousin" in Heartstone, but did Kal registered this information back then? Did he remembered? Did he even hear Amaram say it? Dalinar did not mentioned how the "powerful lighteyed" was when he talked to Kal so....

 

Think of what would happen when Kal realized this? Would this be enough to make him loose it? Is there any way his oaths would let him murdered Amaram?

 

As for Galivar, I do think he was far from the "great benevolent king" Dalinar so fondly remembers. I believe Dalinar's judgement is clouded when it comes to his brother. They did not share a nice equal to equal relationship growing up. Dalinar mentioned how he always step away to make room for Galivar. When his brother "stole" Navani, Dalinar grew so jealous he plotted to have his brother assassinated.... He was so overshadowed by mighty Galivar he failed to see him as he truly was. I wondered if we are going to see some of this with Renarin with respect to Adolin....

 

Edit:

 

Lirin is not a thief, at worst, he falsified documents, but it sounds to me like Wisitow did, in fact, sign those documents himself. If Lirin was a criminal, then Roshone would've been able to win an inquest, but he wasn't. He was a man who was watching all his years of dedication to his hometown crumble away, despite being the best man among them. He saw a way to secure his future for his family, so they wouldn't have to suffer for his seflessness.

 

Falsifying documents count as thievery, it is just a more subtle kin d of thievery. Lirin justifies his actions by claiming Wistiow would have given him the spheres, but we do not know that. Lirin assumed he would, but Wistiow made no promises that I remember. Laral was not engaged to Kaladin: Lirin hoped Wistiow would agree to marry his daughter to his son. There were talks, but nothing formal. Wistiow was incapacitated when he signed the document: they are not valid, but Roshone cannot prove it.

 

Besides, Lirin did not steal the spheres to secure his family income nor to provide for Roshone selfishness: he stole them to send Kal study in Karbranth. I agree Lirin is quite a selfless and dedicated person on an every day life basis, but when it comes to Kaladin, he becomes another man.

 

Kaladin does NOT have to go Karbranth to become a surgeon. This is Lirin's dream he is trying to live through his son. Kaladin does NOT need to marry a lighteye. He could marry any darkeye from the 1st or the 2nd or even the 3rd nahn and live a very happy comfortable life, but no Lirin is obsessed with gaining status. That is his weakness.

 

Lirin wants these things, not Kaladin. Lirin does not have the money to send Kaladin to Karbranth, worst, on his own, Kaladin does not have sufficient status to marry Laral. Therefore, Lirin assumed Wistiow would pay for Kal's instruction so he could marry Laral.......

 

This all very twisted, but despite his life dedication to his town's people, which is quite admirable in itself, Lirin do have weaknesses. He wants to gain prestige, he was obviously scorned at some point in his life and he is trying to re-live it through his son.

 

I do not agree with all you philosophies...

 

Philosophy of Purpose-Actions: It is true Lirin did not try to perpetuate evil as opposed to Roshone, but he was not acting in a way to secure his family's future. If he were, then the family would have left Heartstone. He stole so he could send his son to Karbranth. He stole for a dream he failed to live as a boy. There is selfishness in this.

 

Philosphy of Ideals: Kal does not need to go to Karbranth to become a surgeon and this save lifes. Kal needs to go to Karbranth to become a surgeon of enough renowned to marry into a lighteyed family and thus gain status. There is a big difference here. Whereas I would not call Lirin evil, his motives were not entirely pure. Roshone however  is plain evil, no question asked.

 

The Philosophy of Aspiration-Objective: Again, Kal would have become a surgeon without the spheres. He would have saved lifes anyway. Lirin's action do not serve his family, they serve his dreams. If Lirin had really wanted to serve his family, they would have left town. They would have moved to a larger town where Tien's talent would have found a voice.

 

I would not call it contempt, but discussion of debatable motives. No character is entirely pure nor evil in SA. Lirin is fundamentally a good man and a respectable person, but he made mistakes and stealing those spheres was one. He acted selfishly. One could even argue that after spending so many years putting himself last, he burst and put his interests foremost.

Edited June 28, 2014 by maxal