Dalinar and Lirin

[maxal]

Lately, I have been dreaming of Dalinar and Lirin meeting each other and having the "one father to another father" talk I just realized how much in common they actually have.

 

Let's summarized.

 

1) They have two sons having about the same age difference (roughly 3 years).

 

2) They both have/had a younger son who struggled to find his place in the world, who did not really fit anywhere.

 

3) They both have an older son who excelled at everything he ever tried.

 

4) Despite all this, both of their sons developed a nice relationship, both are/were very close. Both of their elder son are very protective towards their younger siblings.

 

5) They both had grand dreams for their elder sons. They both tried to ingrain in them their wisdom: being a surgeon, you cannot kill to protect for Lirin; follow the Way of Kings, be a solider, but do not be the Blackthorn for Dalinar. In both cases, it failed. Both of their sons moved away from their teaching. Both of their sons loved their father greatly, but both struggled to become their own man. For Kal, it meant becoming a soldier, using Tien as an excuse to become the man he dreamed of being. For Adolin, well he just started, he murdered someone, he acted against all of Dalinar's teaching. We have yet to see where that will bring him.

 

So am I the only one who would dreamed to read the conversation between these two? It would be so nice to have Lirin give advice to Dalinar on how to deal with his sons..............

[Newan]

I want them to have lunch with Tam al'Thor and Atticus Finch

[Terisen]

Would certainly be an interesting discussion.  Though I do think there would be a sticking point on the whole "you can't kill to protect".  I think Dalinar has moved away from the love of bloodshed in his youth to a more moderate position now, but he still views things like fighting as necessary at times.  Lirin, on the other hand, seems far more of a pacifist, where killing is never OK.

 

Maybe Dalinar will have to retrieve Kaladin from Hearthstone and we get to see this exchange.  

[shortycake]

I want them to have lunch with Tam al'Thor and Atticus Finch

This would be the most glorious fictional lunch date to end all glorious fictional lunch dates. 

 

I quit guessing how characters would get along after I swore Shallan and Adolin would despise one another  . I'm not a good guesser! 

But yeah, I think a Dalinar/Lirin team-up would definitely kick my fictional-dad-crush-syndrome into overdrive. 

[cem]

There would of course be a rather big elephant in the room. Namely, Dalinar is partly responsible for Tien's death and whatever else Roshone did to the family, because he wasn't ignoring his duties. I think the second Lirin found out about what happened with Roshone, he'd get the first pointy thing he could find and try to stick it into Dalinar (and get his but kicked in the process).

Edited June 24, 2014 by cem

[Erai Sedai]

I never noticed all the similarities!! Thank you!

[maxal]

There would of course be a rather big elephant in the room. Namely, Dalinar is partly responsible for Tien's death and whatever else Roshone did to the family, because he wasn't ignoring his duties. I think the second Lirin found out about what happened with Roshone, he'd get the first pointy thing he could find and try to stick it into Dalinar (and get his but kicked in the process).

 

Dalinar is not directly responsible: he punished a lighteye guilty of a crime by demoting him and moving him to a far-away town. He could not have known Roshone would have asked for a 13 years old to be sent to war...... Besides, in this specific matter, the culprit is Amaram: he had the right to refuse Tien based on age. He didn't. Roshone put Tien on the list as revenge, but it is true Tien was simply the carpenter's third apprentice, thus expendable. If Tien had been 16 instead of 13, then Roshone would not have been guilty of much. Tien's young age made the matter more critical. There were other young men who were forced to go to war.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

There would of course be a rather big elephant in the room. Namely, Dalinar is partly responsible for Tien's death and whatever else Roshone did to the family, because he wasn't ignoring his duties. I think the second Lirin found out about what happened with Roshone, he'd get the first pointy thing he could find and try to stick it into Dalinar (and get his but kicked in the process).

"I swear Dalinar, a quick surgery will fix that shoulder no problem. Never mind how big the scalpel is."

[maxal]

"I swear Dalinar, a quick surgery will fix that shoulder no problem. Never mind how big the scalpel is."

 

LOL.

 

 

I never noticed all the similarities!! Thank you!

 

It could also add they both have this moral code they follow and they both try to enforce it on their sons. Lirin may not be a blood lusted warlord, but there are some mysteries about his past and he did steal those spheres........... He does have a ruthless side. Lirin is also very well learned and I assume Dalinar must be learned to, although, not as much. Do we know if Dalinar can read glyphs?

[Moogle]

Dalinar is not directly responsible: he punished a lighteye guilty of a crime by demoting him and moving him to a far-away town. He could not have known Roshone would have asked for a 13 years old to be sent to war

 

Dalinar knew Roshone was a terrible person, willing to kill people for what he wants. Dalinar knew (or should have guessed) that punishing Roshone would turn Roshone bitter. Dalinar then proceeded to "punish" Roshone and put him in charge of a town where there was no oversight (ie. Roshone is free to do whatever the heck he wants).

 

I think it's pretty clear Dalinar is partially responsible for Tien myself.

[maxal]

Dalinar knew Roshone was a terrible person, willing to kill people for what he wants. Dalinar knew (or should have guessed) that punishing Roshone would turn Roshone bitter. Dalinar then proceeded to "punish" Roshone and put him in charge of a town where there was no oversight (ie. Roshone is free to do whatever the heck he wants).

 

I think it's pretty clear Dalinar is partially responsible for Tien myself.

 

I disagree. Roshone committed a crime and he was punished accordingly.  Dalinar cannot be held accountable for further crimes committed by Roshone. If someone is trialed for a crime and receives a punishment, can the court be held responsible for any other crimes committed afterwards? No. It can't. Not if the punishment was applied following the current laws.

 

Besides, putting Tien's name on that list was not a crime in itself. He had to produce such a list and he had to fill-it with the people he thought the town could lived without. As sad as it may been, Tien was one of those. It was immoral due his age, but Amaram had the right to refuse him. He is the real culprit here.

 

Now why is it more of a crime to send Tien to war and it is OK to send all of these other boys? He had to send people. Because Roshone wanted revenge on Lirin? It makes the choice immoral, not criminal. Because of Tien's age? Again immorality and perhaps there should be a law preventing conscription of young kids, but apparently there isn't.

 

I agree Roshone is a despicable person, but he did not commit a crime by sending Tien to war and Dalinar certainly is not responsible for this. The one who committed a crime in the town was Lirin and Roshone knew it, but couldn't prove it. He was also angry at his son's death and he unjustly accused Lirin.

 

I agree however Lirin may not see things in this way.

[Moogle]

I disagree. Roshone committed a crime and he was punished accordingly.  Dalinar cannot be held accountable for further crimes committed by Roshone. If someone is trialed for a crime and receives a punishment, can the court be held responsible for any other crimes committed afterwards? No. It can't. Not if the punishment was applied following the current laws.

 

"It's legal!" is something a Skybreaker would say, and I find it to be an unsatisfying explanation. The law in this case is the equivalent of "punishing" a serial killer by moving him to a different town and making him mayor. Here's how Dalinar justifies it:

 

“You saw this Roshone punished?” Kaladin asked, voice soft, feeling numb.

“Exiled,” Dalinar said, nodding. “Elhokar moved the man to a place where he couldn’t do any more harm.”

...

“It was complicated, soldier. Roshone was one of Highprince Sadeas’s sworn liegemen, cousin to important men whose support we needed. I originally argued that Roshone should be stripped of station and made a tenner, forced to live his life in squalor. But this would have alienated allies, and could have undermined the kingdom. Elhokar argued for leniency toward Roshone, and his father agreed via spanreed. I relented, figuring that mercy was not an attribute I should discourage in Elhokar.”

 

I agree with you on your later points, though - sending Tien to war was not, itself, a "crime". I'd argue Sadeas and the other highprinces who started the war in the first place were at fault, but that's an entirely different discussion.

 

Sending Tien to war was not the only questionable thing Roshone has done, however. He's terrorized the town, tried to starve out Kaladin's family, forced darkeyes into hunting whitespine (and then left them to die when he got himself injured), and in general been a scourge on Kaladin's town. Dalinar had the opportunity to argue for a stronger punishment - apparently it would have been legal to strip Roshone of his station, since Dalinar thought it was a viable punishment in the first place.

 

Dalinar relented. He wanted Gavilar's kingdom to survive. The ends justify the means, after all - allowing the kingdom to survive was worth the price of subjecting one small town to the torment of an evil man. I'm in agreement with Dalinar did, but I also think he shares some of the responsibility for everything that Roshone did.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Moogle

[maxal]

"It's legal!" is something a Skybreaker would say, and I find it to be an unsatisfying explanation. The law in this case is the equivalent of "punishing" a serial killer by moving him to a different town and making him mayor. Here's how Dalinar justifies it:

 

Well I would not qualify Roshone a "serial killer".... He despicable, mean, egoist, power hungry person, yes, but not a serial killer. Dalinar could have enforced a harsher punishment, true, but if Roshone expressed remorse and guilt (even if it were feigned) that would have called for a lesser punishment. Elhokar asked for leniency, he thought the punishment was harsh enough. Dalinar may very have thought Roshone had his lesson and would behave for now on. He could not have guessed or presumed it would go wrong. People are to allowed to learn from their mistake.

 

Besides, much of Roshone's hate towards Lirin started when he realized the spheres were stolen. If I recalled properly, he started acting mean towards Kal's family on this basis. It does not make it right, but Lirin sure shares a part of the blame.

 

 

 

I agree with you on your later points, though - sending Tien to war was not, itself, a "crime". I'd argue Sadeas and the other highprinces who started the war in the first place were at fault, but that's an entirely different discussion.

 

Sending Tien to war was not the only questionable thing Roshone has done, however. He's terrorized the town, tried to starve out Kaladin's family, forced darkeyes into hunting whitespine (and then left them to die when he got himself injured), and in general been a scourge on Kaladin's town. Dalinar had the opportunity to argue for a stronger punishment - apparently it would have been legal to strip Roshone of his station, since Dalinar thought it was a viable punishment in the first place.

 

 

The real culprit is the law. There should be a law on the minimum age of enrollment. Amaram is also guilty for allowing Roshone to get away with it.

 

I agree he has terrorized the town. I agree he tried to starve out Kal's family, although we could argue it would not have happened had Lirin not stolen those spheres. Everyone knew he did it which is why everyone was so angry at them. He was selfish. He had a dream for his son and he wouldn't let anything get in the way.

 

I disagree about the hunt. Hunting whitespine is awful, but all lighteyes of high rank hunt deadly creatures. Dalinar did the exact same thing in WoK. They had this huge chasmfield hunt were 50 soldiers ended up dying just so the king could have his sport. It was highly hypocrite of Dalinar to blabber incessantly about the necessity of the codes in time of war, to limit duels in time of war, only to condone a deadly hunt ending up in useless deaths... Roshone did nothing worst than any lighteye may have done. Dalinar had this whole lecture to a very skeptical Adolin on how hunting such a deadly animal should be the highlight of his year............ We get from Adolin's reaction his own disgust of hunting is generally not shared among lighteyes. I would not therefore blame Roshone for acting the same way anyone of his station does.

 

Overall, it would be unfair to blame Dalinar for misfortune of Kal's family. He could have enforced a stronger punishment, but he could not have known how the story was to end.

Edited June 24, 2014 by maxal

[Moogle]

Well I would not qualify Roshone a "serial killer".... He despicable, mean, egoist, power hungry person, yes, but not a serial killer. Dalinar could have enforced a harsher punishment, true, but if Roshone expressed remorse and guilt (even if it were feigned) that would have called for a lesser punishment. Elhokar asked for leniency, he thought the punishment was harsh enough. Dalinar may very have thought Roshone had his lesson and would behave for now on. He could not have guessed or presumed it would go wrong. People are to allowed to learn from their mistake.

 

I'm not saying Roshone is a serial killer, I was just trying to make an analogy as to how ridiculous the situation seems. You don't punish someone for abusing their power by giving them power and then removing any safeguards.

 

We have no evidence that Roshone expressed remorse and/or guilt. Elhokar was the one who was under Roshone's spell, as it were, and was putting people in jail at Roshone's suggestion. Elhokar's very very biased, so I find it questionable that he had any say at all in Roshone's punishment.

 

Dalinar may have thought Roshone was going to change his ways... but he still didn't send people to check up on Roshone every month and talk to the townspeople to see how he was doing. I'm all for rehabilitating criminals, but we do have parole officers for a reason. I'm also doubtful that Dalinar thought Roshone would change his ways - look at how Dalinar phrased things, "Elhokar moved the man to a place where he couldn't do any more harm". It seems like Dalinar accepted that Roshone would cause more harm but for some reason they'd be fixing that. This just makes Dalinar seem clueless as to what the ruler of a town could do to cause harm.

 

Either way, I see it as extreme negligence on Dalinar's part, and probably also some cowardice. Dalinar gave up on trying to get a harsh punishment for Roshone the moment Gavilar approved of Elhokar's plea for leniency. Dalinar suffered from a major case of brother worship. Either way, I find the Alethi system of justice to be lacking in impartiality, and if Dalinar spent the effort, I think Roshone could have been kept more in check. There's precedence for a highprince to check up on his underlings, as we see with Shallan and Valam's hetero-chromatic executioner.

 

Besides, much of Roshone's hate towards Lirin started when he realized the spheres were stolen. If I recalled properly, he started acting mean towards Kal's family on this basis. It does not make it right, but Lirin sure shares a part of the blame.

 

I agree, but this does not absolve Dalinar.

 

 

I disagree about the hunt. Hunting whitespine is awful, but all lighteyes of high rank hunt deadly creatures. Dalinar did the exact same thing in WoK. They had this huge chasmfield hunt were 50 soldiers ended up dying just so the king could have his sport. It was highly hypocrite of Dalinar to blabber incessantly about the necessity of the codes in time of war, to limit duels in time of war, only to condone a deadly hunt ending up in useless deaths... Roshone did nothing worst than any lighteye may have done.

Dalinar had this whole lecture to a very skeptical Adolin on how hunting such a deadly animal should be the highlight of his year............ We get from Adolin's reaction his own disgust of hunting is generally not shared among lighteyes. I would not therefore blame Roshone for acting the same way anyone of his station does.

 

I agree on most everything here, but this doesn't mean I can't criticize Roshone for doing it. I would prefer to criticize all lighteyes for doing it, Dalinar included.

 

 

Overall, it would be unfair to blame Dalinar for misfortune of Kal's family. He could have enforced a stronger punishment, but he could not have known how the story was to end.

 

I don't think he could have known the future, but I do think that he could have realized Roshone was a terrible person. If there was even a small chance that Roshone would treat his town terribly, I think Dalinar was obligated to try harder to prevent any harm Roshone could have done. Of course, this was in his Blackthorn days (if I don't have my timelines mixed up), so I suppose Dalinar's actions are more understandable in that regard.

[Rybal]

Either way, I see it as extreme negligence on Dalinar's part, and probably also some cowardice. Dalinar gave up on trying to get a harsh punishment for Roshone the moment Gavilar approved of Elhokar's plea for leniency. Dalinar suffered from a major case of brother worship. Either way, I find the Alethi system of justice to be lacking in impartiality, and if Dalinar spent the effort, I think Roshone could have been kept more in check. There's precedence for a highprince to check up on his underlings, as we see with Shallan and Valam's hetero-chromatic executioner.

 

Whether Dalinar suffered from brother worship or not, at the end of the day, that brother was the KING. Once the King makes a decision, any further argument is pointless. Further, Roshone was subordinate to Sadeas, not Dalinar, so he wouldn't have had any right to "keep him in check" - at least not in the Alethi mind.

[Aleksiel]

Dalinar may have thought Roshone was going to change his ways... but he still didn't send people to check up on Roshone every month and talk to the townspeople to see how he was doing. 

 

I don't think sending Kholin men to check upon a citylord in another Highprince's domain would have been acceptable. It was Sadeas's responsibility how his citylords govern his cities.

[Moogle]

I don't think sending Kholin men to check upon a citylord in another Highprince's domain would have been acceptable. It was Sadeas's responsibility how his citylords govern his cities.

 

Lirin tells Kaladin that they were of a high enough rank (as darkeyes) to be granted the Right of Travel. Nothing is stopping someone under the employ of Dalinar from making a journey to Kaladin's town then going back, despite it being in another highprince's domain. They wouldn't have to be there in any official capacity.

 

Spying is a way of life for the Alethi.

[Aleksiel]

Lirin tells Kaladin that they were of a high enough rank (as darkeyes) to be granted the Right of Travel. Nothing is stopping someone under the employ of Dalinar from making a journey to Kaladin's town then going back, despite it being in another highprince's domain. They wouldn't have to be there in any official capacity.

 

Spying is a way of life for the Alethi.

 

Dalinar wasn't in good relations with Sadeas after Gavilar's death and even if he knew what Roshone was doing, the latter was out of Dalinar's reach.

 

I think you put too much responsibility on Dalinar. Yes, he didn't see Roshone properly punished, but neither did Elhokar or Gavilar. Sadeas knew what Roshone had done and never bothered to check on him. The crimes Sadeas's citylords commit on his territory are for him to investigate. It was Sadeas's duty to ensure the town was properly governed.

[Moogle]

Dalinar wasn't in good relations with Sadeas after Gavilar's death and even if he knew what Roshone was doing, the latter was out of Dalinar's reach.

 

Gavilar was alive at the time I'm speaking of. Dalinar and Sadeas were quite good friends, if I recall correctly.

 

 

I think you put too much responsibility on Dalinar. Yes, he didn't see Roshone properly punished, but neither did Elhokar or Gavilar. Sadeas knew what Roshone had done and never bothered to check on him. The crimes Sadeas's citylords commit on his territory are for him to investigate. It was Sadeas's duty to ensure the town was properly governed.

 

Multiple people played a part. I'm not saying Dalinar is the only one at fault, I'm just saying he bears some responsibility and I would be surprised if Kaladin was not still a little bit angry with Dalinar over it.

 

As to Dalinar: his entire shtick is that he's better than other people (only he's following the Codes), and so he has a responsibility to live up to that. Just because other people are acting ignobly does not mean that he has to as well, nor does it excuse him. As I said, though, he was the Blackthorn at that time, so it's not really a surprise that he didn't act as a moral paragon.

 

He was probably still grieving over his wife, too, since it's hinted that he just got back from visiting the Nightwatcher and that's why he wasn't around while Roshone manipulated Elhokar. (Though, after removing his memories of Shshsh, would he still be sad? I wonder...)

[maxal]

...

 

But Galivar is the king, not Dalinar. He is not obliged to follow his little brother's suggestion. You really can't blame Dalinar. Besides, as other people pointed out, Roshone was part of the Sadeas princedom. It was Sadeas job to keep him on track, not Dalinar. Dalinar only saw an unjust situation and ask for punishment. Punishment was given. Leniency was shown, perhaps for uncalled reasons, but sometimes leniency is the good way to go.

 

 

Lirin tells Kaladin that they were of a high enough rank (as darkeyes) to be granted the Right of Travel. Nothing is stopping someone under the employ of Dalinar from making a journey to Kaladin's town then going back, despite it being in another highprince's domain. They wouldn't have to be there in any official capacity.

 

Spying is a way of life for the Alethi.

 

 

Precisely. Nothing stopped Kaladin's family from moving away from the town. Nothing except Lirin sense of servitude. They could just have gone elsewhere where people would appreciate them more. In fact, it was foolish for not leaving when things started to go bad. Lirin knew Roshone was unto him and his family, he could have done more to protect them.

[Aleksiel]

Gavilar was alive at the time I'm speaking of. Dalinar and Sadeas were quite good friends, if I recall correctly.

 

Gavilar was alive when Roshone was exiled from Kholinar, but my impression was the war had started before he became a citylord.*

 

 

As to Dalinar: his entire shtick is that he's better than other people (only he's following the Codes), and so he has a responsibility to live up to that. Just because other people are acting ignobly does not mean that he has to as well, nor does it excuse him. As I said, though, he was the Blackthorn at that time, so it's not really a surprise that he didn't act as a moral paragon.

 

He was probably still grieving over his wife, too, since it's hinted that he just got back from visiting the Nightwatcher and that's why he wasn't around while Roshone manipulated Elhokar. (Though, after removing his memories of Shshsh, would he still be sad? I wonder...)

 

Dalinar became a better person after Gavilar's death. I think the moment Roshone was exiled from Kholinar and Sadeas took him, Dalinar was no longer responsible for Roshone.

 

edit: Roshone became a citylord 7 years before WoK according to Kal's flashbacks, so that was wrong.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Moogle]

But Galivar is the king, not Dalinar. He is not obliged to follow his little brother's suggestion. You really can't blame Dalinar. Besides, as other people pointed out, Roshone was part of the Sadeas princedom. It was Sadeas job to keep him on track, not Dalinar. Dalinar only saw an unjust situation and ask for punishment. Punishment was given. Leniency was shown, perhaps for uncalled reasons, but sometimes leniency is the good way to go.

 

Leniency is fine, but not checking up on Roshone isn't. I don't agree with the 'roles' argument, saying that it was Sadeas' job/role to keep track of Roshone. That's not how it works. Everyone is responsible for dealing with all the wrong things in the world. You don't get a free pass just because it's not your job.

 

Sure, most of us as regular people don't have the resources or time to, say, monitor every single criminal out there, but Dalinar is highprince. It would have costed Dalinar one minute of his time and a few spheres every few months to send a man to check up on Roshone. He could afford it. And he should have been keeping an eye on him anyways to make sure he wasn't still influencing Elhokar via letters and whatnot.

 

Precisely. Nothing stopped Kaladin's family from moving away from the town. Nothing except Lirin sense of servitude. They could just have gone elsewhere where people would appreciate them more. In fact, it was foolish for not leaving when things started to go bad. Lirin knew Roshone was unto him and his family, he could have done more to protect them.

 

I agree. A lot of it was Lirin's fault. That still doesn't absolve Dalinar in my mind.

[Aleksiel]

Even if Dalinar had checked on Roshone , how was Dalinar supposed to do anything about him? Roshone didn't really do anything illegal.

[maxal]

Leniency is fine, but not checking up on Roshone isn't. I don't agree with the 'roles' argument, saying that it was Sadeas' job/role to keep track of Roshone. That's not how it works. Everyone is responsible for dealing with all the wrong things in the world. You don't get a free pass just because it's not your job.

 

It would have costed Dalinar one minute of his time and a few spheres every few months to send a man to check up on Roshone. He could afford it.

 

Yes but has others pointed out, it would have been wrong for Dalinar to step within Sadeas princedom to check on one of his men.... The princedoms may have united under Galivar's banner, they remain furiously independent. Sadeas would have never accepted Dalinar stepping in this way. True he keeps bad control over his city lords, but that does not allow Dalinar to do it in his steed.

 

Let's not forget Dalinar was not in such a great position of power. If I recalled properly, he took the Kohlins princedom after Galivar's death. Before, he was just the king's brother, the terrible Blackthorn. Dalinar would have step way out of his station to go make surveillance on a man attach to another Highprince.

 

We can blame the Alethki law system which is highly corrupted and unfair. Mechanisms should have been in place in such cases, but they aren't and it was not up to Dalinar to invent them. You can't fault the man for not behaving outside what is expected of him.

 

 

I agree. A lot of it was Lirin's fault. That still doesn't absolve Dalinar in my mind.

 

Lirin has a huge responsibility in his family misfortune. In fact, we could even argue he is the real culprit as had he not been so creedy and so ingrained with his dreams of grandeur for his precious Kaladin, none of this would have happened. Tien would have probably been sent to war, but not before many many years. There was still the time to make him move to a large town where his skills would have come out useful as opposed to a small village.

[maxal]

Even if Dalinar had checked on Roshone , how was Dalinar supposed to do anything about him? Roshone didn't really do anything illegal.

 

So true. Being a despicable and vengeful person is not illegal.