How does F-Iron work?

[Walter The Moral]

So, I was thinking about F-Iron and how it works, and I'm quite confused. We know that it works by manipulating the Higgs Field (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/6/#e327), but what is that? Could someone explain that to me in simple terms? What would the ramifications of that be?

Edited May 11, 2023 by Walter The Moral

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Walter The Moral said:

So, I was thinking about F-Iron and how it works, and I'm quite confused. We know that it works by manipulating the Higgs Field (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/6/#e327), but what is that? Could someone explain that to me in simple terms? What would the ramifications of that be?

Your linked WoB (excerpt):

Quote

Seonid

So is it Higgs field stuff going on?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Mmhmm.

Seonid

My idea was right.

Brandon Sanderson

Mmhmm.

I would not take "Yeah. Mmhmm" to be the same as Yes. It could be "close" or "I'm not sure that the physics you are referencing is the same as what I am thinking of"  - after all, that's one reason Sanderson redirects hard physics questions to Peter. . .

That said - Wikipedia brief summary:

Quote

In the late 1950s, Yoichiro Nambu recognised that spontaneous symmetry breaking, a process where a symmetric system becomes asymmetric, could occur under certain conditions. Symmetry breaking is when some variable that previously didn't affect the measured results (it was originally a "symmetry") now does affect the measured results. . .

Following the 1963 and early 1964 papers, three groups of researchers independently developed these theories more completely, in what became known as the 1964 PRL symmetry breaking papers. All three groups reached similar conclusions and for all cases, not just some limited cases. They showed that the conditions for electroweak symmetry would be "broken" if an unusual type of field existed throughout the universe, and indeed, there would be no Goldstone bosons and some existing bosons would acquire mass.

Wikipedia References:

Higgs Boson - Scalar Field - Higgs Mechanism

Extremely brief simplified summary:

Basically, in the 50s and 60s researchers working in Particle Physics were noticing things that were not fully explained by the theories at the time. In trying to explain these interactions Higgs' team (and other independent, unrelated teams) theorized the existence of a Higgs Field (like the Gravitational field of space-time - existing in some capacity everywhere) and a Higgs Boson (particle) that would interact with the field and with other particles. The effects of the Interaction between a particle and the Higgs field (via the Higgs Boson) would allow particles to acquire mass.

After decades of theories and experiments, the existence of the Higgs Bosun was proven in 2012: (Wikipedia)

Quote

After a 40 year search, a subatomic particle with the expected properties was discovered in 2012 by the ATLAS and CMS experiments at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at CERN near Geneva, Switzerland. The new particle was subsequently confirmed to match the expected properties of a Higgs boson. Physicists from two of the three teams, Peter Higgs and François Englert, were awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics in 2013 for their theoretical predictions. Although Higgs's name has come to be associated with this theory, several researchers between about 1960 and 1972 independently developed different parts of it.

Hope that helps. If not, maybe one of the true scientist types around here can fix anything I got wrong and/or explain it better (but this is very deep physics - its fine to say "they have an explanation" and carry on)

PS: The book Flash Forward (Robert J. Sawyer) involves an event with a team that is working at the LHC trying to find the Higgs Boson. The (short-lived) TV Show derived from the book removes all of that part of the story. The book is good readin' (weird, but good).

Edited May 11, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Frustration]

9 hours ago, Walter The Moral said:

So, I was thinking about F-Iron and how it works, and I'm quite confused. We know that it works by manipulating the Higgs Field (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/6/#e327), but what is that? Could someone explain that to me in simple terms? What would the ramifications of that be?

Answer: It doesn't.

It works because Brandon says it does, no matter how you try and make it work no ammount of Science can explain everything it's doing.

 

Here's some WoBs about all of the wierd things about it: https://wob.coppermind.net/collections/979/

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Walter The Moral said:

So, I was thinking about F-Iron and how it works, and I'm quite confused. We know that it works by manipulating the Higgs Field (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/6/#e327), but what is that? Could someone explain that to me in simple terms? What would the ramifications of that be?

Don't focus too much on that if you don't understand what Higgs Field is. Brandon is trying to explain how F-iron works without breaking too many laws of physics in the process. F-mass stores mass, but if that would be true, then density of the body should change, but it doesn't. He tries to explain it (or fans do) by using the Higgs Field - which is a field of energy that exists everywhere and interacts with every particle which passes through it (which is everything), giving it mass with those interactions. But that's going deep down into quantum physics - you need to just know that F-iron stores mass, without changing gravitational acceleration or density - this explains every use of F-iron. F-iron just breaks physics and there is no way to explain it with physics.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Six

The fight in the ballroom

From the early days of the Mistborn books, I'd been planning how an Allomantic gunfight would go down. I felt it the next evolution in what has been stylistically a big part of these books.

There is a fine line to walk in a lot of these sequences. I've made something of a name for myself in the fantasy world by attempting to mix some scientific reasoning with my magic systems. At the same time, Allomancy was designed precisely with action sequences in mind. I wanted them to be powerful and cinematic—and a cinematic fight sequence is often at odds with realism. (Watch two people who really know what they're doing fight with swords sometime, then watch any fight sequence in a film. Most of the time, the film sequences stray far from what would really happen.)

So, as I said, I walk a line. Sometimes, there are things I just can't do because they violate what I've set up as the rules of the world. Other times, I design the setting and nature of the fight specifically to allow for certain types of cinematic sequences. One thing I like a lot about Wax’s abilities is the power he has to manipulate his weight. There's some realism to what he does—for example, increasing his weight doesn't make him fall more quickly, but it allows him to do some powerful things while falling. Destroying the chandeliers is an example.

At the same time, I acknowledge that the weight manipulation aspect of Feruchemy is one of its more baffling powers, scientifically. Is he changing his mass? If so, he should become more dense, which I don't actually make the case when it plays out in fights. (Otherwise, increasing his weight enough would make him impervious to bullets.) So, if it's not mass manipulation, is it gravity manipulation, like Szeth and Kaladin do? Well, again, not really—as when his weight increases, his strength and ability to uphold that weight increase as well. Beyond that, Wax can't make himself so light that he has no weight at all.

So . . . well, at this point, the ability to explain it scientifically breaks down. I do like what it does, but I have to set its boundaries and stick to them—and accept that some of what's going on is irrational. (And don't get me started on what should really be happening scientifically when Wayne speeds up time.)

Footnote: Brandon has stated that iron Feruchemy works by manipulating the Higgs field.
The Alloy of Law Annotations (March 14, 2014)

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by alder24

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, it just doesn't quite work with physics.

What I think is meant is that it just changes mass directly - Wax doesn't have less or more atoms or molecules in his body when he stores or taps weight.

AFAIK (which is limited) most of the mass of people or everyday objects- or anything else made of atoms - doesn't actually come from the Higgs field. The mass of fundamental particles like electrons and quarks does, but most of an atom's mass - from what I've read - is really the result of energy in the protons and neutrons.

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

AFAIK (which is limited) most of the mass of people or everyday objects- or anything else made of atoms - doesn't actually come from the Higgs field. The mass of fundamental particles like electrons and quarks does, but most of an atom's mass - from what I've read - is really the result of energy in the protons and neutrons.

That's right, most of the mass of a proton and an neutron comes from the energy holding them together, the strong force, it's like 99% of their mass. The interaction of elementary particles, such as electrons and quarks with the Higgs field gives them their mass. But the rest of the proton/neutron's mass comes from energy binding those particles together.

[Argenti]

I know it doesn't work like this, but it feels more like Iron stores gravity rather than mass. 

23 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's right, most of the mass of a proton and an neutron comes from the energy holding them together, the strong force, it's like 99% of their mass. The interaction of elementary particles, such as electrons and quarks with the Higgs field gives them their mass. But the rest of the proton/neutron's mass comes from energy binding those particles together.

Maybe it works by transferring these bonds to the spiritual realm?

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Maybe it works by transferring these bonds to the spiritual realm?

No, that doesn't make sense. With weaker bonds atoms and particles would just fall apart. 

[Argenti]

Just now, alder24 said:

No, that doesn't make sense. With weaker bonds atoms and particles would just fall apart. 

Well, they still exist, just turned spiritual mumbo-jumbo, but it's highly unlikely.

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Well, they still exist, just turned spiritual mumbo-jumbo, but it's highly unlikely.

In Cosmere Atoms are Axi, and like in our world Atoms are partially matter (quarks) and partially energy (forces binding them together), in Cosmere there is likely a spiritual component already, investiture mixed into those axi. Therefore they already partially exist in SR. Some things just don't make sense, F-iron is one of those things, that's it.

[Treamayne]

The in-world science is likely to be similar to how Redshift is averted with time bubbles - when time is sped up extra energy is converted to investiture rather than radiation (preventing redshift) and when time slows, extra investiture is converted to energy (preventing blueshift). I would guess that for F-Iron:

• Spoiler

   

  • When you store "Mass" you are converting energy from the Higgs Field to investiture and tucking it into your metalmind (thereby "lowering" your mass through reduced energy in the Higgs field)
  • When you tap "Mass" you are converting investiture from your metalmind into energy that supplements the energy in the Higgs field (thereby "increasing" your mass though supplemented energy in the Higgs field)

   

   

At least that's my 20yen

[cometaryorbit]

What it does in practice, seemingly, is change the mass of Wax as a whole - without the usual physics effects of the individual bits of him being of different mass - bullets can still pierce him, and he doesn't crush himself.

It's almost like it just changes the variable defining his mass in an universal "program".

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I would guess that for F-Iron:

•   Hide contents

   

  • When you store "Mass" you are converting energy from the Higgs Field to investiture and tucking it into your metalmind (thereby "lowering" your mass through reduced energy in the Higgs field)
  • When you tap "Mass" you are converting investiture from your metalmind into energy that supplements the energy in the Higgs field (thereby "increasing" your mass though supplemented energy in the Higgs field)

   

   

At least that's my 20yen

Yeah, that won't work. As said, the majority of mass of an atom is coming form bonds holding that atom together, that's 99% of the mass. The Higgs Field gives mass to fundamental  particles only - electrons, quarks etc - that's only less than 1% of atom's mass. 

7 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

It's almost like it just changes the variable defining his mass in an universal "program".

Cosmere is a simulation! 

[Frustration]

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

 

Cosmere is a simulation! 

I'm adding this as a core tenet of the Greatshell Roshar society.

[cometaryorbit]

14 hours ago, alder24 said:

Cosmere is a simulation! 

Not literally, but I think that programming code & variables may be a decent analogy for the spiritweb. Hemalurgy can steal stuff like muscular strength and physical senses that one would think would be purely physically determined, so it must be coded in the spiritweb somehow.

[alder24]

9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think that programming code & variables may be a decent analogy for the spiritweb. Hemalurgy can steal stuff like muscular strength and physical senses that one would think would be purely physically determined, so it must be coded in the spiritweb somehow.

Yes, it's a decent analogy. Mass is a variable, so is density, but density is not defined by mass (weirdly, rather density is a constant) so a change of mass won't change density.

But I think that a better analogy is that your spirit web is just a spiritual DNA, coding everything you have: attributes, abilities, powers, connections and so on. You can rip off part of your sDNA chain and it will still work, you can heal it back with enough investiture, or if damage is too severe, further functioning is not possible and it breaks either killing you or "mutating" you into an insane person of some sort. Just like DNA in our cells - it can reconnect broken chains, fix mutations and damages done to it, but if DNA is damaged too badly, the cell would either be killed, or become a cancer cell.

9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Not literally

Too late! I'm already a truthseeker! Scadrial is in the center of hollow Roshar but mists and clouds obstruct the view so you can't see the curvature or the other side of it! #Awakentomytruth!

[cometaryorbit]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, it's a decent analogy. Mass is a variable, so is density, but density is not defined by mass (weirdly, rather density is a constant) so a change of mass won't change density.

But I think that a better analogy is that your spirit web is just a spiritual DNA, coding everything you have: attributes, abilities, powers, connections and so on.

Well, density by definition is determined by mass and volume. The comments about Wax's density not changing with F-Iron are more an example of Wax not using terms entirely correctly; what's really being described is that he isn't bulletproof at very high mass, i.e. the rule of impact depth doesn't apply to F-Iron. Which is very odd, because it does otherwise conserve momentum. That (plus the "no punching people with 1,000 pounds" WoB) is why I think it really just works on Wax as a whole.

This would all have been way easier if F-Iron just decoupled gravitational and inertial mass, but unfortunately BoM rules that out. Unless there's some weird Resonance interaction...

-

I don't think spiritweb is strictly identical to spiritual DNA, although spiritual DNA has never really been defined so I could be wrong.

I think spiritual DNA is the "fixed" parts of the spiritweb, generally defined before birth and not changeable short of extreme methods like lerasium or Hemalurgy (what Khriss calls "hardwritten into the Spiritweb").

I think the spiritweb as a whole is a person's entire Spiritual Aspect, including things that change normally over one's life without magical intervention (Connections to people other than one's parents, for example).

But I could be wrong, spiritweb might not be synonymous with the entire Spiritual Aspect.

Edited May 14, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Well, density by definition is determined by mass and volume. The comments about Wax's density not changing with F-Iron are more an example of Wax not using terms entirely correctly; what's really being described is that he isn't bulletproof at very high mass, i.e. the rule of impact depth doesn't apply to F-Iron. Which is very odd, because it does otherwise conserve momentum. That (plus the "no punching people with 1,000 pounds" WoB) is why I think it really just works on Wax as a whole.

That's why I said, by the definition of "the program" (simulation) density can't be defined by mass (physically it is), as WoBs are talking about density not being changed at all. Or there are 2 variables: spiritual mass and physical mass - Wax is changing his physical mass, but not his spiritual mass (which defines his density), that's why his spirit knows to what mass the body needs to go back after he stops using ironminds. Very similar to how Rashek's age and Atium was described - he was changing his physical age, not spiritual age and his body snapped back to its spiritual age when he lost his atiumminds. There likely are some functions that allow to change spiritual attribute based on physical attribute’s value (in “the program”).

[cometaryorbit]

Eh, I think Brandon is just using Wax's (technically incorrect) language. I don't think it's meant to imply that density has a special Cosmere definition.

But yes, Wax's "proper" mass would be remembered - for every Feruchemy except Copper and maybe Nicrosil, once you stop tapping/storing you return to the normal state. Only Copper Feruchemy seems to permanently change your "base" state (there's a WoB that Medallion Nicrosil is discrete like coppermind memories, but that may not apply to the default use of F-Nicrosil).