Jasnah, Shallan, and Soulcasting

[dj26792 he/him]

Im fairly sure the different gems are for soulcasters not soulcasting, and how was going into the alley not reckless, an attack against an unknown number of assailants of unknown skills, all it would have taken for her to lose was a single crossbow, or another 10 assailants, someone of her intelligence would know that and a careful someone would have made sure they had some kind of back up regardless of how unnecessary it would have turned out. Yes she is careful elsewhere, but everyone can be careful with their secrets, and even then she isnt that careful, she just doesnt let anyone near her soulcaster and always carries it when soulcasting, its pretty basic precautions, I would be taking more precautions than that, and I know a lot of people who are far more careful than I am.

[happyman he/him]

Arguing over which virtues match Jasnah seems like a pointless exercise for now, which I think is made pretty clear by how easily people can toss out examples and counterexamples of Jansah maybe or maybe not behaving in line with being Just, Confident, Brave, Wise, Careful, etc.

Looking at Shallan as a guiding case, I think we can feel pretty good about matching her to Order 6 b/c we get a lot of her PoV, and we know that both her creativity (art) and honesty are *directly* related to her interacting with spren and soulcasting. Do we have any examples of what kind of (potentially, or arguably) virtuous behaviors are *directly* related to Jasnah's soulcasting and/or interaction with spren? I don't think that we do, and more generally I think that seeing those kinds of examples requires PoV or an equivalently "all-access" look into Jasnah while she's soulcasting or chatting with her spren or what have you.

This. We know a lot more about Shallan and her internal struggles and character than we do about Jasnah, whom we see through Shallan's eyes. Shallan comes in with a lot of baggage, and while she drops some of it, she definitely doesn't drop all. However, it also means that our understanding of Shallan is somewhat more detailed, and she fits Artistic/Honest to a T. That really should be that.

[Wispsy he/him]

And jasnah shares soulcasting with her and is unlikely to be 5? how do you even know she was against an unknown number of assailants, and did u see how she handled it? Being careful doesn't mean avoiding anything dangerous completely, even if there were another 10 they woulda starte running and we dot know what her other ability is... She probably does it just may not have been necessary

Also she would not have been able to deal withy he problem if she brought a load of soldiers.... They woulda just hidden and people would still be robbed and murdered on the way to the theatre

Once again it's like saying kaladin doesn't protect people because he killed tht shardbearer and that's not protecting, his team was dead so he wasn't even protecting them!

Jasnah is also under constant threat of assassination, she is still alive. Considering the competence and dedication we have seen from Kabsal who is just one she must be careful, alot, else she would be dead for doing what she sees is right

[FeatherWriter she/her]

I'm with treblkickd and happyman. The point is moot until we have more evidence. Personally I have to say she's 7, though I'll admit I pinned her for 2 the first time I looked at the table without considering the adjacent orders business. There's lots of evidence for either side.

I will say I don't really see any way for it to be 5. Jasnah doesn't really fit the attributes in my opinion and her inability to soulcast food very well seems to discredit that theory.

[Aeshdan he/him]

I'm fairly sure that the numbering runs clockwise from the top right. This is because the colour of each symbol would then align perfectly with the colour of the associated gemstone. Something like:

.9......1.
8...10...2
7....5...3
.6......4.

Plus, we know you have the first three correct because the swordglyphs match. (The symbol in 1 is the swordglyph for Sapphire, the symbol in 2 is the swordglyph for Smokestone, and the symbol in 3 is the swordglyph for Ruby.)

[Triasmus]

For Soul, I also seem to remember that it felt like she captured a bit of her subjects' soul in her drawings, but couldn't find the quote. Also, it could be that drawing an exact copy of something is not regarded as creative, as the image already exists (it is more like photography than painting/drawing).

I found the quote.

When she drew, she didn’t feel as if she worked with only charcoal and paper. In drawing a portrait, her medium was the soul itself. There were plants from which one could remove a tiny cutting—a leaf, or a bit of stem—then plant it and grow a duplicate. When she collected a Memory of a person, she was snipping free a bud of their soul, and she cultivated and grew it on the page. Charcoal for sinew, paper pulp for bone, ink for blood, the paper’s texture for skin. She fell into a rhythm, a cadence, the scratching of her pencil like the sound of breathing from those she depicted.

pg. 118 Shallan's drawing Yalb while waiting for Jasnah.

EDIT

and

Her drawing gathered about a half-dozen of them, pulling them by her act of creation just as a bright fire would draw flamespren.

is on the same page.

Attracting creationspren makes her creative, but not necessarily the kind of creative we normally think of when we hear creative. I don't think the connotation that goes with creative when we think of it would describe how Shallan attracts creationspren. The question is, Is the "creative" in creative/honest the creative that attracts creationspren, the creative that we normally think of, or both?

Edited December 24, 2011 by Lantern13

[Zarepath he/him]

One thing to consider is the fact that not every single person on Roshar can be pegged down into two specific attributes. Perhaps Jasnah belongs to a specific order, but her personality is actually quite different. Does being in #5 necessarily prevent Shallan from having any of the attributes of the other 9 orders?

Additionally, does being in #5 mean that Shallan could never cultivate and develop the attributes of another order, attract its spren, and become a Knight Radiant of an entirely different order? Are these orders predetermined for these characters, or do they depend entirely upon the characters' choices?

So I think the question isn't what attributes define Jasnah, but how this magic system decides which attributes to file a person under.

[Aeshdan he/him]

Good point, but somewhat frustrating for our present discussion.

[Triasmus]

I think it would go off of your prime attributes(?). It would take a very life changing situation to change the fundamentals of one's person. Take Kaladin for example, he's gone through several life-changing situations and he still is driven to protect people.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Remember spren are attracted to very strong attributes. We're not saying that you can't have the attributes of other orders. You certainly can! And it's possible that even a strong show of protection or wisdom or creativity or whatever wouldn't attract a spren. Because in order to do so, those attributes have to be off the charts. Crazy high. Kaladin is just so determined to protect for months and years and even when he's cast down to his very lowest, it's still what he focuses on. THAT'S why he attracted Syl. Same for Shallan. Assuming she's in order #6, Shash I believe, it's the fact that she's constantly focused on creation and she's done it for a long time. That's why she attracted the Symbolhead spren.

I don't know, maybe it is impossible to join another Order. Maybe you just can't have more than one Nahel bond at a time. But even if you can, I have a feeling it would be incredibly unlikely to join another because it'd be nearly impossible to show that kind of dedication to more than one Order's attributes. I don't think you can fake something like that. It has to just be who you are.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

I agree with the above, and I also believe that even if it's theoretically possible to form more then one bond it's something that would basically never ever happen because it's incredibly hard for a person to dedicate themselves that completely to more then one set of attributes.

[Aminar]

We're having a discussion over in the thread on magic structure about the nature of Shallan's drawing/truthcapturing abilities. I think that heavily ties into her placement and suggests that there is more than soulcasting to her powers.(Plus it puts her squarely into truth.

[Odium's_Shard]

We are doing this.

Plus, on topic:

I think the major problem with this theory of pegging Shallan and Jasnah into the TWO KR Orders that can Soulcast because they share this ability is that; this implies that anybody who can Soulcast has to fall under those attributes. This also means that any Soulcaster, any one at all, can only have speciality in one of two associated Soulcasting Properties. This means that any Soulcaster (if I put Jasnah under #2 and Shallan under #6 for the sake of argument) could only specialise in either Vapor or Blood. Which couldn't possibly fit. This would leave other Properties at a severe disadvantage. And considering how much food is made using Soulcasting (albeit through fabrials), Pulp is very clearly well represented.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Odium's_Shard

[Odium's_Shard]

Right I know it is pushing it a bit far, but couldn't you number the symbols in this document like so:

Forgive the crude representation:

1......3

5...9...7

8...10...6

4......2

So top left: 1, connects (oppositely [using the line that connects it to the middle point]) to bottom right 2

Top Right: 3 connects to bottom left four

Second top left: 5 connects to second bottom right 6

Second top right: 7 connects to second bottom left 8

Then middle top: 9 connects to middle bottom 10

Using this theory (which is completely logically flawed, skewing the colour gem matchup and everything) it gives 6 and 2 (the favoured slots for Shallan and Jasnah) a place next to each other, and thus a shared Surge (the one to the right of the green symbol and to the left of the red symbol).

[Triasmus]

We are doing this.

Plus, on topic:

I think the major problem with this theory of pegging Shallan and Jasnah into the TWO KR Orders that can Soulcast because they share this ability is that; this implies that anybody who can Soulcast has to fall under those attributes. This also means that any Soulcaster, any one at all, can only have speciality in one of two associated Soulcasting Properties. This means that any Soulcaster (if I put Jasnah under #2 and Shallan under #6 for the sake of argument) could only specialise in either Vapor or Blood. Which couldn't possibly fit. This would leave other Properties at a severe disadvantage. And considering how much food is made using Soulcasting (albeit through fabrials), Pulp is very clearly well represented.

The soulcasting fabrials could have been made specifically because they wanted to soulcast "good" food.

1......3

5...9....7

8...10...6

4......2

The 10 and 1 need to be connected to make a full circle (whether or not it looks like a circle)

btw to everyone who might read this, I tend to play devil's advocate, so if you're thinking that I'm "disagreeing" with everything that you say (in the future) it's because I probably am "disagreeing". No hard feelings.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Lantern13

[Odium's_Shard]

No, no.

I just want to be proven right, or proven wrong.

This is the condition to stop my rambling theories!

Proceed with the debate!

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Perhaps soulcasers can work with other orders to augment their abilities with other essences? That'd be interesting. Or perhaps it just takes practice to create the other essences.

[treblkickd he/him]

We are doing this.

Plus, on topic:

I think the major problem with this theory of pegging Shallan and Jasnah into the TWO KR Orders that can Soulcast because they share this ability is that; this implies that anybody who can Soulcast has to fall under those attributes. This also means that any Soulcaster, any one at all, can only have speciality in one of two associated Soulcasting Properties. This means that any Soulcaster (if I put Jasnah under #2 and Shallan under #6 for the sake of argument) could only specialise in either Vapor or Blood. Which couldn't possibly fit. This would leave other Properties at a severe disadvantage. And considering how much food is made using Soulcasting (albeit through fabrials), Pulp is very clearly well represented.

I don't think that the ties between Order-Herald-Gemstone-Essence-Divine_Attribute need to necessarily imply a 1-to-1 connection with Soulcasting talents, and frankly, we don't have any clear idea what determines "Soulcasting talents" or where they come. The detailed mechanics of Soulcasting are a complete unknown at this point, and therefore don't provide a useful basis for making arguments.

If you think just about the information that is well-supported, such as the fact that adjacent Knights Radiant orders have surges in commong (one of which is Soulcasting), and the fact that which Orders are adjacent is pretty well undestood:

9......1

8...10....2

7...5...3

6......4

where applying this layout to the interior cover art is anchored by several "knowns", including the gemstone colors being matched to the Heralds/Orders/Essences/Attributes, and the Heralds' being depicted surrounding the glyphs (with Jezerien, the "King of Heralds" being the obvious one wearing a crown and coinciding with the #1 glyph, which is blue, thereby matching the sapphire gemstone). Oh, and there's also the comment in the WoK Ars Arcanum where it talks about this same "double eye" symbol as having the central pupils representing the creation of plants and creatures (plants being the essence tied to Order 5, and flesh/meat tied to Order 10). This is a little ramble-y but my point is that our understanding of how the orders match up to the double eye glyph diagram is really one of the most solid things that we know.

Moving outward from there, there is also pretty good evidence that Shallan is Order 6. We really don't have any good direct evidence for what Order Jasnah might belong to, which means that Order 5 and Order 7 are the only reasonable guesses until we actually know something solid about her Order.

One thing that is a puzzler re: the double eye diagram is that there are a number of lines that connect different Radiant Orders that are not adjacent, and which do not share a surge. Examples of this are the lines that run through the middle of the symbol (connecting, for example, 1 and 6, 9 and 4, 8 and 3, etc in the layout given above), and also the vertical lines that connect 1 and 4, and 9 and 6. In fact, it's odd that Orders 1, 4, 9 and 6 have these solid lines connecting them to four other Orders, while Orders 2,3,5,6,7,8, and 10 only have lines connecting them to three other Orders. What's going on there?

[Odium's_Shard]

That could be interesting. It could mean that these lines connect unadjacent orders together who share something other than a Surge?

[Gagylpus he/him]

One set of evidence that seems (at least to me) strangely neglected in this thread is the Herald images that appear in the arch at the beginning of each chapter. Going through quickly, I picked out all the chapters where Shallan and/or Jasnah appear, and the herald images for each of these chapters.

CH3 - we first see Shallan - 2x herald 6

CH5 - we first see Jasnah - 2x herald 5

CH7 - Shallan attempts to convince Jasnah to take her as her ward - 2x herald 10

CH8 - Shallan convinces Jasnah to take her as her ward - 2x herald 5

CH28 - Jasnah communicates with Dalinar via spanreed - herald 5, herald 1

CH29 - Shallan and Jasnah debate viewpoints - herald 5, herald 6

CH33 - Kabsal shows Shallan the cymatic patterns - herald 5, herald 10

CH36 - Jasnah takes Shallan for a practical lesson - herald 5, herald 2

CH39 - Shallan considers the morality of Jasnah's murders and her own theft - herald 6, herald 2

CH42 - Shallan presents her conclusion to Jasnah, and plans to leave - herald 5, herald 10

CH45 - Shallan enters Shadesmar and soulcasts for the first time - herald 5, herald 6

CH48 - Kabsal attempts to poison Jasnah and ends up poisoning himself and Shallan - 2x herald 10

CH70 - Shallan realizes that Jasnah can soulcast as well, and both go to Shadesmar - herald 5, herald 7

CH72 - Jasnah reveals her suspicions about parshmen - 2x herald 5

CH74 - Shallan learns about the Ghostbloods - herald 5, herald 10

13 of the 15 chapters they appear in have either Herald 5 or Herald 6 at the beginning, or both. Once I realized the significance of the Herald images, I immediately thought that Shallan would belong to Order 6, and Jasnah to Order 5, based on the associations between the herald images and the chapters.

The only thing that really doesn't fit for Jasnah being Order 5, in my mind, is the soulcasting with organics thing... which could just be something Brandon tossed in to throw us for a loop.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Gagylpus

[spacemonkey he/him]

13 of the 15 chapters they appear in have either Herald 5 or Herald 6 at the beginning, or both. Once I realized the significance of the Herald images, I immediately thought that Shallan would belong to Order 6, and Jasnah to Order 5, based on the associations between the herald images and the chapters.

The only thing that really doesn't fit for Jasnah being Order 5, in my mind, is the soulcasting with organics thing... which could just be something Brandon tossed in to throw us for a loop.

This is a very good point. The chapter headings aren't something I'd considered before, but they do seem to strongly indicate that Shallan is in Order 6, and Jasnah Order 5.

As for Soulcasting organics, there's no reason that being in that particular Order would have any effect on her ability to Soulcast organics. Yes, number 5 on the Soulcasting chart is aligned with plants, wood, and moss, but that doesn't necessarily mean that being in Order 5 grants any special abilities with Soulcasting that Essence. Soulcasting is a Surge all on its own; it probably functions the same way regardless of which Order someone is in. The different Orders must gain access to it from a different kind of spren-bond, but the actual act of Soulcasting is probably the same for both Orders that can do it.

In chapter 72, Jasnah comments that it's harder to Soulcast something that isn't the pure form of an Essence. Presumably, you need a better comprehension of what it is you want to transform when you're working with something that isn't an Essence, and Jasnah simply doesn't know a lot about biology.

Granted, this is conjecture, but it seems logical to me.

[treblkickd he/him]

This is a very good point. The chapter headings aren't something I'd considered before, but they do seem to strongly indicate that Shallan is in Order 6, and Jasnah Order 5.

As for Soulcasting organics, there's no reason that being in that particular Order would have any effect on her ability to Soulcast organics. Yes, number 5 on the Soulcasting chart is aligned with plants, wood, and moss, but that doesn't necessarily mean that being in Order 5 grants any special abilities with Soulcasting that Essence. Soulcasting is a Surge all on its own; it probably functions the same way regardless of which Order someone is in. The different Orders must gain access to it from a different kind of spren-bond, but the actual act of Soulcasting is probably the same for both Orders that can do it.

In chapter 72, Jasnah comments that it's harder to Soulcast something that isn't the pure form of an Essence. Presumably, you need a better comprehension of what it is you want to transform when you're working with something that isn't an Essence, and Jasnah simply doesn't know a lot about biology.

Granted, this is conjecture, but it seems logical to me.

Oh! This last thought is excellent!

Imagine that Jasnah and Shallan are of the two different Soulcasting orders (or at least have the same powers that function in the same way). If Jasnah were order 5, then her orders virtues would be Learned/Giving, and if Shallan is order 6 then her virtues would be Creative/Honest. Well, we already know that Shallan's art and telling truths are crucial to her Soulcasting and interacting with her spren. It would then stand to reason that Jasnah's soulcasting would be related (in admittedly what is likely some abstract way) to her own orders's virtues, which includes "Learned" (I'm setting aside "Giving" for now just to focus on one thing at a time). It would then follow that in order for Jasnah to soulcast, she must have a deep understanding on the thing(s) that she is trying to soulcast, and it is her education then which defines her strengths/weaknesses with respect to things that she can or cannot soulcast efficiently.

[Zarepath he/him]

Oh! This last thought is excellent!

Imagine that Jasnah and Shallan are of the two different Soulcasting orders (or at least have the same powers that function in the same way). If Jasnah were order 5, then her orders virtues would be Learned/Giving, and if Shallan is order 6 then her virtues would be Creative/Honest. Well, we already know that Shallan's art and telling truths are crucial to her Soulcasting and interacting with her spren. It would then stand to reason that Jasnah's soulcasting would be related (in admittedly what is likely some abstract way) to her own orders's virtues, which includes "Learned" (I'm setting aside "Giving" for now just to focus on one thing at a time). It would then follow that in order for Jasnah to soulcast, she must have a deep understanding on the thing(s) that she is trying to soulcast, and it is her education then which defines her strengths/weaknesses with respect to things that she can or cannot soulcast efficiently.

Jasnah can be seen as a Giving person. She allows Shallan to apprentice her (which, considering Jasnah's station, is pretty giving), and she gives of her Soulcasting talent to save Taravanggaigaviavnagivn's kid. In fact, all of her research is done freely for the good of the Alethi kingdom, despite not having any particular position of power or responsibility.

/stretching

Edited January 19, 2012 by Zarepath

[hoser he/him]

Yes! Upvote to Gagylpus for giving data and synthesizing. Interpreting behavior to derive attributes was not convincing to me as I kept fitting the behaviors to my desired expected results. This seems solid (in a murky sort of way).

A side note is that the freeing of T's (I'm not even gonna try) kid was part of an explicit qui pro quo for access to the library. Another interesting note is that it may not have been necessary as some of his team have access to soulcasting. Implying that T may be studying Jasnah and the whole thing may have been a setup.

A very interesting (to me!) thing to note in Gagylpus' listing is the implied association of the Ghostbloods and Kabsal with Herald 10.

Thanks! Good work! On with the puzzling out! More exclamation points!

[Rayonn]

I noticed that chapters in which Szeth, Shallan, and Jasnah are introduced are each marked with the herald of their order*.

Szeth: 1, Jezrien

Shallan: 6, Shalash

Jasnah: 5

However, Kaladin, who I believe is confirmed as a Windrunner--Jezrien's order--has a different herald: Taln, I think. Possibly Kaladin, as the 'backstory character' for this book, is indicated with a herald somehow related to what happens to him in the chapter, rather than the herald of his order... maybe. I'm pretty sure Jezrien heads the chapter that Kaladin speaks the second ideal (I don't have the book with me to check).

Also, Dalinar is introduced in a chapter headed by Hoid (who also appears in that chapter) and Jezrien.

I'm not sure what this might mean.

*Actually, Shallan's presumed order, one of Jasnah's two possible orders given that presumption, and the order that matches Szeth's powerset even though he gets his powers some other way.