Jasnah, Shallan, and Soulcasting

[ulyssessword he/him]

I had assumed that striking down the men in the alley from a distance was a combination of pressure and soulcasting, as it fits intuitively for me, though there is no evidence for this.

[dj26792 he/him]

Where is the pressure in that scenario?

I thought it seemed more likely to be some kind of electromagnetism

[ulyssessword he/him]

Where is the pressure in that scenario?

I thought it seemed more likely to be some kind of electromagnetism

It's somewhat contrived, but my thought was that she created a channel of low (magical? air?) pressure between herself and the muggers, which helped to draw the stormlight to them.

The second reason is that I felt it had to be either gravity or pressure that she shared with the Windrunners (because she's in the next order), and gravity made no sense in that context.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Just to set things straight, is soulcasting a power? Or an order? I'm more inclined to believe it's a power and that Shallan and Jasnah are different, but adjacent orders, but does this mean that the term Soulcaster is not the same kind of word as Windrunner. Would we refer to Jasnah and Shallan as different words because they're from different orders? Also, my vote is Shallan = Shash, Garnet, Blood and Jasnah = Palah, Emerald, Pulp

[ulyssessword he/him]

Just to set things straight, is soulcasting a power? Or an order? I'm more inclined to believe it's a power and that Shallan and Jasnah are different, but adjacent orders, but does this mean that the term Soulcaster is not the same kind of word as Windrunner. Would we refer to Jasnah and Shallan as different words because they're from different orders? Also, my vote is Shallan = Shash, Garnet, Blood and Jasnah = Palah, Emerald, Pulp

Soulcasting is a power. Quote from Jasnah:

"Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability..."

Edited December 9, 2011 by ulyssessword

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Hmm. If artifabrians can create fabrials to replicate Soulcasting, I wonder if it'd be possible to replicate other powers, like the two Windrunning powers. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the new fabrials being developed show up as Radiant powers and vice versa.

Also - because I seem to be filled with unanswerable questions today - I wonder if calling the Windrunning powers Lashings is a Windrunner thing, or whether the other two Orders that share those powers also call them Lashings, or would they have different words for the same powers?

Hmm, I wonder if there are other kinds Lashings. For as diverse as soulcasting is, and it's only one power, Windrunning - using two - is really quite limited. Binding objects together doesn't seem like nearly enough to constitute an entire power. There's so much more that could be done with atmospheric pressure. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more applications for gravity manipulation as well.

[dj26792 he/him]

I dont think there would be any more than the 2 gravity lashings, they're actually quite broad when you think about it, affecting the way gravity pulls on an object and the gravitational pull of an object in general terms, there doesnt seem to be any more to do with gravity, pressure I think could be used for more than we've seen for sure, but gravity is already pretty versatile.

[Meandering Monotreme]

I actually think that (assuming the counterclockwise numbering is right) Jasnah and Shallan share a power and are therefore either #5 and #6 or #7 and #6, respectively. #5 doesn't fit Jasnah--if it was, she would be much better at living things (properties being wood, plants, moss; people can soulcast food out of its gemstone, emerald) so Jasnah is probably #7, Betab. Let us check: oil doesn't conflict with anything she does, and she is wise, and we have no basis for whether or not she is careful. For now, it works out perfectly!

[ulyssessword he/him]

I actually think that (assuming the counterclockwise numbering is right) Jasnah and Shallan share a power and are therefore either #5 and #6 or #7 and #6, respectively. #5 doesn't fit Jasnah--if it was, she would be much better at living things (properties being wood, plants, moss; people can soulcast food out of its gemstone, emerald) so Jasnah is probably #7, Betab. Let us check: oil doesn't conflict with anything she does, and she is wise, and we have no basis for whether or not she is careful. For now, it works out perfectly!

I don't think that Jasnah is from order 7. Although there is no direct contradictions, she only fits with one trait of the order (Wise), as opposed to 5 traits for order 2 (Smokestone, Exhalation, smoke, Just, and Confident) if its divine attributes are just and confident as I believe they are, or 4 if they are as written (which is apparently wrong).

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

It seems to me that we have three points:

1. Jasnah is in order 2.

2. Jasnah and Shallan must be in adjacent orders, or the same order.

3. Shallan is in order 6.

One of these three points is false.

if point 1 is false, then Jasnah is either in order #5 or order #7. Both fit Jasnah to some degree, but not as well as order #2.

if point 2 is false, then the Order/power chart is fundamentally flawed. We've seen badly flawed understandings of magic systems in the past (namely Allomancy's "10 metals"), but even that had the overall structure generally correct.

if point 3 is false, then Shallan is in order #3 (or order #1, but Kaladin seems to be strongly in order #1, which means that Shallan isn't). Order #3 could be made to fit Shallan, but it really doesn't.

Alternatively, there are some major typos in the Ars Arcanum, besides the ones we've been told about.

[ulyssessword he/him]

It seems to me that we have three points:

1. Jasnah is in order 2.

2. Jasnah and Shallan must be in adjacent orders, or the same order.

3. Shallan is in order 6.

One of these three points is false.

if point 1 is false, then Jasnah is either in order #5 or order #7. Both fit Jasnah to some degree, but not as well as order #2.

if point 2 is false, then the Order/power chart is fundamentally flawed. We've seen badly flawed understandings of magic systems in the past (namely Allomancy's "10 metals"), but even that had the overall structure generally correct.

if point 3 is false, then Shallan is in order #3 (or order #1, but Kaladin seems to be strongly in order #1, which means that Shallan isn't). Order #3 could be made to fit Shallan, but it really doesn't.

Alternatively, there are some major typos in the Ars Arcanum, besides the ones we've been told about.

Seems like we've come full circle. Keep in mind though, there are a few more possibilities other than those you've listed.

1. Assuming we have Jasnah's order correct, Shallan could be in the same one. Vice versa for if we have Shallan's order correct.

2. We have both orders wrong, and they are something like orders 9 and 10, though nothing fits nearly as well.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

If Shallan is NOT in order 6, I will eat a hiking boot. Also, given the fact that it's strongly hinted that Jasnah interacts with the symbolspren in a different way then Shallan does, I'd say it's pretty much a given that they aren't in the same order.

Edited December 10, 2011 by CrazyRioter

[dj26792 he/him]

At this stage I think Jasnah 5, Shallan 6 is the most likely, even though Jasnah fits 2 better than 5 the powers she has shown don't fit with what 2 would have (no pressure or gravity, although this could be misinterpretation) and she fits order 5 better than Jasnah fits order 3 anyway.

[callumke he/him]

The food thing is important, I think; Jasnah is very bad at soulcasting organics. I doubt, therefore, that she is of the 5th Order, since its soulcasting properties are Wood, plants, moss. But I think Shallan is clearly of the 6th order, due to soulcasting blood and being honest (to access Shadesmar) and creative.

I had assumed... but no, that obviously wouldn't make sense. I see now.

- from tWoK Chapter 72.

Jasnah here is talking about spren being linked to Radiant abilities. The above quote would indicate that Jasnah had assumed Shallan of being in the same order as her, but revises that opinion when she see's Shallan's spren.

Therefore, Jasnah is in the 7th order, whose Primary/Secondary Divine Attributes are Wise/Careful. This would seem to fit Jasnah, since she is both wise and very careful at hiding her natural soulcasting talent.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I'm not going to place Shallan anywhere besides 6th unless we learn differently in the book or someone makes a very, very convincing argument otherwise. I could accept Jasnah being 7th instead of 5th though. I'm just really hung up on the 5th Order's "Learned" Divine Attribute. Jasnah is a preeminent scholar on Roshar, after all, and learning more and more seems like a good way for her to strengthen her Nahel bond.

Just/Confident seem like qualities that are way too easy to apply to people, almost like in horoscopes, where you could apply the statements to practically anyone. So, if one of Jasnah's Surges is Soulcasting, do you think the other allows for ranged Soulcasting by her lightning bolts? Next books is Shallan's, so we'll probably see her 2nd Surge and what it allows her to do.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

I had assumed that you... but no, that obviously wouldn't make sense. I see now.

- from tWoK Chapter 72.

Jasnah here is talking about spren being linked to Radiant abilities. The above quote would indicate that Jasnah had assumed Shallan of being in the same order as her, but revises that opinion when she see's Shallan's spren.

I'm not entirely convinced that Jasnah assumed that Shallan was in the same order as her. Her phrasing is "I had assumed...". This means that she had made the assumption at a previous time, and was now looking at the assumption again and discarding it. Shallan only revealed that she could Soulcast minutes before. I think if Jasnah had been referring to to Shallan's order, she would have said "I assume that you... but no," indicating that she's making the assumption and correcting it mid-thought. The "I see now" only reinforces the idea that Jasnah's assumption was made previously. I'll admit that she could be referring to an assumption made minutes before, when Shallan revealed that she could soulcast. But it feels wrong to me. I think she's referring to an assumption made much earlier than that. What it might be, I have no idea.

Back to the topic - what do you see as the defining moment of Jasnah's character in this book? I don't know about you, but I see it as the scene where she kills those men. And in that scene, the two qualities that define her the best are Just and Confident. Even without knowing about the Ars Arcanum, I think I would pick those two qualities for that scene. Yes, she's Learned and Careful, maybe she's Wise and Giving, but I just feel that Just/Confidence are at the core of her character more than anything else (also note that this is one of the only scenes we see her soulcast). I find it really difficult to argue with my gut on this one. And the fact that every other piece of circumstantial evidence we've found supports Jasnah being in Order 2, and I think this outweighs the restriction she has to be in order 5 or 7.

[Wispsy he/him]

Jasnah is proven to be careful! Soulcasting stuff shallan has been eating for ages just incase!

[dj26792 he/him]

That is a good point, but wandering down into the city to fight an unknown number of experienced murderers with your only back up being a helpless little girl... really really not careful.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

That is a good point, but wandering down into the city to fight an unknown number of experienced murderers with your only back up being a helpless little girl... really really not careful.

Nope, but pretty confident.

[dj26792 he/him]

lending credence to her being in order 2... which causes all sorts of problems for our understanding of how everything about surgebinding works. YAY!!

[Wispsy he/him]

She was clearly well equipped to deal with them and was doing it to save helpless women! Kinda noble and all that

[dj26792 he/him]

Thats not the issue, the issue is classifying someone who would do something that reckless as careful. You could I suppose classify it as giving, but her lack of skill at organic soulcasting makes that order incredibly unlikely and the problems with her powers makes order 2 unlikely, I can't think of another order that fits.

[Wispsy he/him]

I really don't think it was that reckless. It was a job that needed doing, she knew about it and she even used it as a lesson on morality

Look at it this way, no matter the divine attributes they have, would a radiant stand by as innocent people were being murdered on the way to the theatre(before they fell)

It's like saying kaladin doesnt qualify for protecting because he kills people

If you look a little broader at jasnahs life she has gone a very long time being able to soulcast freely and the whole world thinks she is just a heretic with a soulcaster. This means she has spent years using it very carefully to avoid detection

Then look at how carefully she works at her studies, she isn't the type to make any mistakes or miss anything at all it seems

These are just a couple, there are loads of examples of jasnah being careful throughout the book, even in the example u put forward jasnah was well aware of her skills and completely unsurprised by the murderers and srsly owned them, it is also akin to calling someone reckless for going down to the faire and shooting fish in a barrel, sure you could die if u get seriously unlucky, but it's not likely!

Edited December 11, 2011 by Wispsy

[treblkickd he/him]

Arguing over which virtues match Jasnah seems like a pointless exercise for now, which I think is made pretty clear by how easily people can toss out examples and counterexamples of Jansah maybe or maybe not behaving in line with being Just, Confident, Brave, Wise, Careful, etc.

Looking at Shallan as a guiding case, I think we can feel pretty good about matching her to Order 6 b/c we get a lot of her PoV, and we know that both her creativity (art) and honesty are *directly* related to her interacting with spren and soulcasting. Do we have any examples of what kind of (potentially, or arguably) virtuous behaviors are *directly* related to Jasnah's soulcasting and/or interaction with spren? I don't think that we do, and more generally I think that seeing those kinds of examples requires PoV or an equivalently "all-access" look into Jasnah while she's soulcasting or chatting with her spren or what have you.

edit: spelling is clearly not my virtue

Edited December 11, 2011 by treblkickd

[Wispsy he/him]

Well you say that but if only 2 orders can soulcast and it is strongly believed shallan is 6 and the picture is right order and that orders next to each other share a surge then there is only one order jasnah is likely to be! And she fits the virtues fine if people stop obsessing about her being order 2 xD kaladin doesn't require different gems to suck up stormlight and use his powers, I doubt jasnah does, she just uses smoke alot cos she has a big smoke stone and soulcasters DO require different gems for diff stuff (I think). Smoke is actually quite a useful one to carry around if your being forced into pretending ur using a soulcaster as we have seen!