Did Venli Do a thing?

[JohnnyKaizen]

Ok, I don't have access to a pdf of RoW, so I'll do this as best I can. Some of you super-quoters, please help me out with the specific passages.

In Ch 67 of RoW "Song of Stones" Venli is trying to 

Spoiler

use her Radiant powers. She doesn't feel "right" about using Voidlight, so she tries Stormlight first. This seems to be blocked. Presumably by the inverted Tower defenses. So, she uses Voidlight and hears the voice of the Stone.

What follows is one of the coolest things in RoW in my opinion. A history lesson on Roshar, from the Stone itself. Anyway, after getting chills, I came across this part (I am using an audio book, so i'll transcribe my main point)

"Venli knelt. After several minutes, breathing in gasps. She realized she was completely out of Voidlight. She searched her sack, and found all of her spheres drained, saved for a single mark. She'd gone through those spheres with frightening speed. But that moment of song. That moment of Connection had certainly been worth it."

It was already established that Venli had Voidlight and Stormlight in her bag, and that starting this process with Stormlight had failed. But after Connecting to the Stone...she drained ALL of her investiture.

This seems significant to me? It seems like a Singer/Listener who becomes a Willshaper (and probably a Stoneward as well) would, in essence, become of DawnSinger again? 

Now, I say that as if I know exactly what a DawnSinger is..and I don't. I am going off of the story that the Stone tells, as well as mentions from Kabsal, Jasnah, etc.

At the very least..Venli was able to consume Stormlight to use a Radiant power, thereby circumventing the inverted defenses? Right? Or am I missing something here? I suppose it's possible that she only drained the Voidlight spheres, but it seems like BS chose his words carefully here?

 

[alder24]

23 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

It was already established that Venli had Voidlight and Stormlight in her bag, and that starting this process with Stormlight had failed. But after Connecting to the Stone...she drained ALL of her investiture.

This seems significant to me? It seems like a Singer/Listener who becomes a Willshaper (and probably a Stoneward as well) would, in essence, become of DawnSinger again? 

Now, I say that as if I know exactly what a DawnSinger is..and I don't. I am going off of the story that the Stone tells, as well as mentions from Kabsal, Jasnah, etc.

At the very least..Venli was able to consume Stormlight to use a Radiant power, thereby circumventing the inverted defenses? Right? Or am I missing something here? I suppose it's possible that she only drained the Voidlight spheres, but it seems like BS chose his words carefully here?

Huh, It seems that true.

Quote

Venli attuned the Lost and put down her small sack of spheres. She took out a Stormlight one first, then glimpsed into Shadesmar. 

[...]

Timbre pulsed. She wasn’t convinced it would work with Stormlight, not with the tower’s defenses in place. Indeed, as Venli tried to do ... well, anything with the Stormlight, she felt as if there were some invisible wall blocking her.
She couldn’t push the Stormlight into her gemheart to store it there—not with the Voidspren trapped inside. So Venli let the Light burn off on its own, breathing out to hasten the process. Then she took out a Voidlight sphere.

[...]

Radiant, the stones said. We have ... missed your touch, Radiant. But what is this? What is that sound, that tone?
“Voidlight,” Venli admitted.
That sound is familiar, the stones said. A child of the ancient ones. Our friend, you have returned to sing our song again?

[...]

Venli knelt. After several minutes, breathing in gasps, she realized she was completely out of Voidlight. She searched her sack, and found all of her spheres drained save for a single mark. She’d gone through those spheres with frightening speed. But that moment of song, that moment of connection, had certainly been worth the cost.
She drew in this mark, then hesitantly placed her hand to the wall again. She felt the stone, willing and pliable, encouraging her and calling her “shaper.” She drew out the Voidlight and it infused her hand, making it glow violet-on-black. When she pressed her thumb into the stone, the rock molded beneath her touch, as if it had become crem clay.

Or Brandon missed to note that only spheres containing Voidlight were drained, not Stormlight. Or maybe she mixed both Stormlight and Voidlight into Warlight like she did later in ch 83 with mixing Odium and Cultivation rhythms (not lights)?

Quote

It felt wrong to be using his Light to practice her Surgebinding, but the stones whispered that it was well. Odium and his tone had become part of Roshar, as Cultivation and Honor—who had not been created alongside the planet—had become part of it. His power was natural, and no more wrong or right than any other part of nature.
Venli searched for something else. The tone of Cultivation.

[...]

The tone snapped into her mind, Cultivation and Odium mixing into a harmony, and it thrummed through Venli. She opened her eyes as power spread from her through the stones. They began to shake and vibrate to the sound of her rhythm, liquid, forming peaks and valleys in time with the music. The floor, ceiling, and walls before her rippled, and a trail of people formed from the stone. Moving, alive again, as they strode away from pain, and war, and killing.
Freedom. The stones whispered to her of freedom. Rock seemed so stable, so unchangeable, but if you saw it on the timescale of spren, it was always changing. Deliberately. Over centuries. She had never known her ancestors, but she knew their songs. She could sing those and imitate their courage. Their love. Their wisdom.
The power slipped from her, as it always did. The tone faded, and her control over the stone ended. She needed more practice and more Light.

However I think it just didn't tell us that only Voidlight spheres were drained. Venli thinks often that she asks for a lot of Voidlight and after that she isn't thinking that she used Stormlight. 

[Kendelian]

Perhaps she managed to mix the Voidlight and Stormlight, considering that she has a Connection to Odium due to the spren used in Envoyform, as well as a Connection to Honor through Timbre. She may have synthesized Warlight accidentally, which I think @JohnnyKaizen was hinting at.

[JohnnyKaizen]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Or Brandon missed to note that only spheres containing Voidlight were drained, not Stormlight. Or maybe she mixed both Stormlight and Voidlight into Warlight like she did later in ch 83 with mixing Odium and Cultivation rhythms (not lights)?

Now THAT would be something indeed.

[The Stormfather]

yeah it would. I also just realized taht people use BS to mean brandon sanderson but I read it as something else at first.

[The Sibling]

On 4/26/2023 at 10:16 PM, stormform wert said:

yeah it would. I also just realized taht people use BS to mean brandon sanderson but I read it as something else at first.

This is a good thread to look at for that sort of thing. Acronyms for people new to the Cosmere 

 

[Nogo]

On 4/26/2023 at 11:53 AM, alder24 said:

Or Brandon missed to note that only spheres containing Voidlight were drained, not Stormlight. Or maybe she mixed both Stormlight and Voidlight into Warlight like she did later in ch 83 with mixing Odium and Cultivation rhythms (not lights)?

Since Venli can harmonize tones on her own (which, I think, highlights the connection between Cultivation and Willshapers, or maybe just Singers/Listeners) in this instance, then she should be able to create the harmonized light using the same general technique that Navani did making Warlight.  Presumably Venli can harmonize any combination of tones as she can access all three types.  However, without deliberately mixing the light (like Navani did drawing the two lights into one) I'm hesitant to say that she was using Warlight.  Big possible exception would be that somehow she merged the lights together in her gemheart (or something) while holding both and signing the harmony.  Maybe???   It does seem strange for her to be able to unintentionally do what took Navani and Raboniel so much time and effort to do.  

Y'all making my brain hurt again

Edited May 1, 2023 by Nogo

[NameIess]

I think the most reasonable assumption is that Venli just drained all of her voidlight spheres and that Brandon just didn't specify that it was only Voidlight spheres that were drained. She would've noticed otherwise, and probably wondered why stormlight had worked all of a sudden.

[teknopathetic]

On 5/1/2023 at 10:26 AM, Nogo said:

Since Venli can harmonize tones on her own (which, I think, highlights the connection between Cultivation and Willshapers, or maybe just Singers/Listeners) in this instance, then she should be able to create the harmonized light using the same general technique that Navani did making Warlight.  Presumably Venli can harmonize any combination of tones as she can access all three types.  However, without deliberately mixing the light (like Navani did drawing the two lights into one) I'm hesitant to say that she was using Warlight.  Big possible exception would be that somehow she merged the lights together in her gemheart (or something) while holding both and signing the harmony.  Maybe???   It does seem strange for her to be able to unintentionally do what took Navani and Raboniel so much time and effort to do.  

Y'all making my brain hurt again

Venli is not only a Willshaper, but she is also in the Regal Envoyform which gives her the powers of translation and interpretation (almost like a 3rd surge). I wonder if Willshaper + Envoy is letting her do some strange things in regards to translation Stormlight to Voidlight and vice versa 

Edited May 4, 2023 by teknopathetic

[JohnnyKaizen]

21 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Venli is not only a Willshaper, but she is also in the Regal Envoyform which gives her the powers of translation and interpretation (almost like a 3rd surge). I wonder if Willshaper + Envoy is letting her do some strange things in regards to translation Stormlight to Voidlight and vice versa

That's certainly could be adding to it. However, in the Ars Arcanum for RoW, Khriss talks about the stone's willingness to change and to share/teach information to Willshapers and Stonewards, but that doesn't necessarily mean that isn't unique in what she's doing. Based on all the other main Radiants, I am assuming she is.

I need to go back and find the specific spot (I was listening in bed and fell asleep, and then forgot) where Venli is practicing her stoneshaping a 2nd time and it seems as though she blends Voidlight and Lifelight? I was sleepy and remember thinking fuzzily, where is she getting the Lifelight from?
Which could lend credence to @Nogo's thoughts on the subject as well. 

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I need to go back and find the specific spot (I was listening in bed and fell asleep, and then forgot) where Venli is practicing her stoneshaping a 2nd time and it seems as though she blends Voidlight and Lifelight? I was sleepy and remember thinking fuzzily, where is she getting the Lifelight from?

Is that ch 83? She didn't mix lights, she mixed tones of Cultivation and Odium, I quoted that in a post above.

[JohnnyKaizen]

Just now, alder24 said:

Is that ch 83? She didn't mix lights, she mixed tones of Cultivation and Odium, I quoted that in a post above.

Ok, that is still confusing to me. The pure tones are rarely heard by the Listeners, at least. Raboniel seems to be very familiar with them. If Venli was using Voidlight and created the Rhythm of the two..what does that mean for the investiture she's using. Maybe I just don't understand the mechanics, or maybe this is one of those things that BS has shown/told us without actually telling us?

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Ok, that is still confusing to me. The pure tones are rarely heard by the Listeners, at least. Raboniel seems to be very familiar with them. If Venli was using Voidlight and created the Rhythm of the two..what does that mean for the investiture she's using. Maybe I just don't understand the mechanics, or maybe this is one of those things that BS has shown/told us without actually telling us?

Nothing, because Venli wasn't mixing investiture. She was just tuning herself. And likely intent matters like always.

[JohnnyKaizen]

Just now, alder24 said:

Nothing, because Venli wasn't mixing investiture. She was just tuning herself. And likely intent matters like always.

Fair. 
I just can't shake the feeling that it's significant. But i've been wrong plenty of times before..will be again.

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Fair. 
I just can't shake the feeling that it's significant. But i've been wrong plenty of times before..will be again.

It might be. It might be a foreshadowing of Odium being now an integral part of Roshar, which I think was told later in RoW? Or just a reminder to us that this is the case now with Odium.

[JohnnyKaizen]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

It might be. It might be a foreshadowing of Odium being now an integral part of Roshar, which I think was told later in RoW? Or just a reminder to us that this is the case now with Odium.

Yeah, at the bare minimum for sure.
There is also a lot of history (that clearly has relevance in now and future of the Cosmere) in RoW as well, especially with Ishar and the Bondsmiths. And, I imagine that will have a lot to do with investiture going forward.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

Dawnsingers are just Singers who predate the arrival of humanity and Odium https://coppermind.net/wiki/Dawnsinger.

[Treamayne]

7 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Dawnsingers are just Singers who predate the arrival of humanity and Odium https://coppermind.net/wiki/Dawnsinger.

I think he was talking specifically about the version of the Surge of Cohesion Venli saw the Dawnsingers using in that scene.

[JohnnyKaizen]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I think he was talking specifically about the version of the Surge of Cohesion Venli saw the Dawnsingers using in that scene.

Yes, that was what I was referring to. And there is a world of detail in how the surges were used, (both on Roshar and Ashyn) before any limitations were put on them, that I assume we'll have to wait for the back 5 to get around to..but I'm impatient and want to know now. Also, any time there are purposefully glaring holes in the history/narrative, it's clearly on purpose and mildly annoying (see aforementioned impatience).